So I've been playing Grixis Control now as of a few weeks pre-zendikar till now and this was attempt #1 at intergrating worldwake into my deck for my last night FNM. Results were great, ended up going 3-1 with my only losses to a Violent Ultimatum land destruction deck; not really due to not being able to 'control' it but due to hitting en-mass landfloods in both games (topdecking 9 lands in a row gee gee?).
The new jace is a house; you don't need defence for him if you can see your opponent is land screwed/flooded; just drop him turn four and fiddle with their top card (help them mana flood/screw more) while you safely put down your win conditions and score a clear victory. While I can say its easy to feel greedy and want to put several in a deck I just don't want to find myself in the situations where you have dead cards in hand; something that regularly occured when I was running 3x jace1 + 3x chandra with a much older version of my deck. I feel he has easily earned a place as another one-of alternative win condition.
Singleton Creeping Tar Pit helped finish games a turn or two earlier then normal speeding up roundtimes; once again however > 5 into play tapped lands in a 60 card cruel control seems to be too big a drawback.
Resolving Chain Reaction worked everytime to wipe the board come turn four; dropped edrazi elves like a rock and vampires just fellover. I do miss some of Earthquakes advantages (planeswalker removal, use as a banefire to finish) but I feel this a strong card that has found a place in Grixis Control.
Single/Double Kicking a Spell Contortion was a nice breath of fresh air, worried about a major meta change to Vampires/WW I moved my flashfreezes into sideboard and thought I'd give the new counter a spin. It rocks against aggro decks but in the control matchups quite often the two mana is easily paid for by your opponent; in a few situations I played it to benefit from the cantrip and drew an alternative answer (Terminate, Jace, Cruel ty!)
So.... where does this deck leave more to be desired? I feel right now the lack of instant draws leaves a major weakness; Courier's Capsule is close to the only playable 'almost-instant' draw we have access to that is reliable yet its weaknesses are abound (artifact hate seems to have become very popular at my local store with the introduction of wordwake). Divination is terrible but once again there isn't many other options. I WANT to use Treasure Hunt... however showing them my new answer isn't exactly what I had in mind.... at least it'd stop mana flooding though right?
Block Leech and die (on the 4th turn can kill the leech LOL). -
Can't block Broodmate.
Die to a kickered Gatekeeper.
Can't block a Nighthawk.
Die to Earthquake.
Can't block Great Sable Stag.
Block Woolly and die.
Block Ball Lightning and die.
Don't block plated Geopode "fetched" and the Lynx "fetched".
Can't block Hell's Thunder.
Block Elemental Appeal and die.
Can't block Baneslayer.
Can't block Emeria Angel.
Block and die a Rhox War Monk played on 2nd turn with Hierarch.
And so on....
I think you should just test it out extensively before just plain thinking about what a card CAN'T do. Here's what usually happens in my experience:
Block Leech and die (on the 4th turn can kill the leech LOL). - it forces Putrid Leech to pump, where you promptly Bolt it in response. If my opponent played Leech on turn 2, I don't tapping out to play anything is always the best play anyway.
Can't block Broodmate. - the card is meant to be used to stall early, not block late game finishers.
Die to a kickered Gatekeeper. - same with every other creature. Even those not in Magic: The Gathering.
Die to Earthquake. - On the contrary, it survives what Earthquake is usually played for, which is 2-3 damage.
Indexed and paraphrased your post for ease of repsonse.
1) What planeswalkers are resolving? Why can't you answer them with your burn, or mitigate their effects with removal? Do you always have a land drop to make Snapper 4 power? Do they never block?
Once a deck resolves a walker against control they often understand that the plan is to protect it. I doubt they will often let you bash them to death with Snapper.
2)Finisher role most of the time? Your finisher should be Sphinx more. The five power often means a turn difference between the 4 power of Snapper. Also burn can finish them post Cruel. The deck doesn't really need another finisher.
3)The problem with 'along the way' is that the turns you play Snappers they get a chance to sneak in spells such as Mind Rot, Blightning, etc.
4) You don't try to counter every spell. If you are, you are playing the deck wrong. Why counter a creature that will die to the removal in your hand? The way of 1-for-1ing into Cruel is correct use of resources. I have no problem doing this with no Snappers.
a1) It does make them slightly weaker. There is a reason Baneslayer is only played in the sideboards of most decks now.
a2) Always being 5 power vs sometimes being 4 power. Not having 1 toughness. Having flying. These two cards are not really comparable, because Sphinx is leagues ahead of Snapper. The fact that we should already be in control when we play Sphinx also matters. Yes, Sphinx dies to a kicked Gatekeeper, and double power Lynx and Geopede. But, if there are double-upped Landfall creatures going on, we would have lost before playing Sphinx. Topdecking Sphinx late is better because it can ignore many other creatures in the format by virtue of flying.
tl:dr
Are you dense or something? You completely ignore the fact that Snapper is 3 mana?
You completely ignore the other important fact that Snapper can stall the board against 70% of the 4 mana and less CMC creature drops that aggro?
Snapper is a staller ffs. Him being able to become a finisher after stalling for so long is amazing, whereas Sphinx is just a finisher and taps out for 1 turn completely. Snapper can be played from turn 3 to 6 even with mana up for counters or removal.
And I dont know how you have been testing or what you have been testing against, because for me, against decks like Jund, White Weenie, NissaMonument, Jace is IMBA.
He is almost always good and maintains the board position amazingly well. I can safely say that every Jace I play always gains me +1 card advantage and gain 3 life or bounce 2 creatures and +1 CA. His ability to dig for 3 is also very relevant because it allows me to find answers, shuffle away unneeded cards with fetchland or just ensure my Treasure Hunt draws 3 or more cards.
Are you dense or something? You completely ignore the fact that Snapper is 3 mana?
Snapper is a staller ffs. Him being able to become a finisher after stalling for so long is amazing, whereas Sphinx is just a finisher and taps out for 1 turn completely. Snapper can be played from turn 3 to 6 even with mana up for counters or removal.
And I dont know how you have been testing or what you have been testing against, because for me, against decks like Jund, White Weenie, NissaMonument, Jace is IMBA.
He is almost always good and maintains the board position amazingly well. I can safely say that every Jace I play always gains me +1 card advantage and gain 3 life or bounce 2 creatures and +1 CA. His ability to dig for 3 is also very relevant because it allows me to find answers, shuffle away unneeded cards with fetchland or just ensure my Treasure Hunt draws 3 or more cards.
Yep, totally dense.
I also test against Tier 1 decks, and Jace was always underwhelming. If you draw him, and not Snapper, you have to wait until turns 6-7 to play him with protection. Even with Snapper, and even if you wait until you always have counter magic up to play everything, what happens when you tap down to two for Snapper on turn 5 and they play 2 or more threats? Tapping mana on your own turn for anything but a game winner should be avoided, and Snapper and Jace are not really game winners.
Also, for 4 mana being +1 CA and gain 3 life, see Captured Sunlight. That card was bad, and it gained you 4 life and +1 CA. Using the soak arguement for Planeswalkers isn't very legit, because that's not why you play them.
Let's say Jace nets you +3 CA on average. This takes multiple turns, at one point or another costs you 4 mana, and can be done at sorcery speed. You can pay three for Divinations +1 immediate payoff, also at instant speed, or you can pay 5 mana to have a +1/+2 at the end of their turn with Mysteries of the deep. I am fine paying the extra mana to avoid my opponent sneaking some threat in somehow.
It's fairly obvious we aren't going to agree on this, so we will just have to see how the results point.
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THE THOUGHTHAMMER HAS SPOKEN!
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Snapper is ridiculous in the Mirror. Just Bar none ridiculous. 4 power that's hard to kill.
The one of Sorin is still a house. Just like Jace, you have Snapper's to protect him for a few turns to Mindslaver and set up your big turn. The only thing is the triple black, but Cruel Ultimatum isn't a problem so...
The manlands get better after board as you have less removal for them.
Jace is ridic. Moving on.
The only concern with Halimar Depths is that if you want to run manlands and this, you have an awful lot of lands coming into play tapped. This can be a bit of a problem.
You can run Jace out there more often than you think against control. In fact, you almost want to. You control aggro by playing stuff like Calcite Snapper. And if you do play Jace T4, then by playing it you make them have to kill it, otherwise you just got a huge source of CA. Think of Jace as replacing Mind Spring and Treasure Hunt as replacing Courier's Capsule/Divination, and you get a good idea on how to treat and play the cards.
Ok, first the 27th land is added fuel for the treasure hunts while also being a manland who can attack/block as necessary. Calcite Snapper is just the real deal and does everything sphinx does and more. He blocks early and beats late when the board is clean anyhow, hitting nearly as hard as sphinx for considerably less mana. In my testingm Jace has been nearly unstoppable even t4 unprotected (so long as the board is clean before u cast her). I cut earthquake mostly because I feel the online meta will shift dramatically towards control (at least at first) and its just not great there. Also the fact that snapper blocks what quake would normally kill is another reason they are needed much less. Flashfreeze is just a 2 mana counterspell that you hope is relevant because we need (6) two mana creature counters to have a reasonable shot at having 1 in our opener. I added the 4th cruel ultimatum because this card is just amazing and I always want to cast this t7/8/9.
I think you should just test it out extensively before just plain thinking about what a card CAN'T do. Here's what usually happens in my experience:
Block Leech and die (on the 4th turn can kill the leech LOL). - it forces Putrid Leech to pump, where you promptly Bolt it in response. If my opponent played Leech on turn 2, I don't tapping out to play anything is always the best play anyway.
Can't block Broodmate. - the card is meant to be used to stall early, not block late game finishers.
Die to a kickered Gatekeeper. - same with every other creature. Even those not in Magic: The Gathering.
Die to Earthquake. - On the contrary, it survives what Earthquake is usually played for, which is 2-3 damage.
Block Ball Lightning and die. - don't block it and YOU die.
Block Elemental Appeal and die. - see above
Can't block Baneslayer. - same as the Broodmate Dragon comment.
I tested turtle extensively today and it rocked the house. I firmly believe in it. I only play three but that is because space is limited and you can get it back with CU.
I'm wondering if Anathemancer is playable in this deck? I'm running Burst Lightning as a two of, and whilst the Burst can be used as removal its often used late game to finish them off. I'm wondering if Anathemancer could be viable with the resurgance of non-basics (man-lands). Late game it can be game winning unearthed.
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Temporarily retired from the game
Thanks a bunch to Rivenor from Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the awesome sigpic!
I also test against Tier 1 decks, and Jace was always underwhelming. If you draw him, and not Snapper, you have to wait until turns 6-7 to play him with protection. Even with Snapper, and even if you wait until you always have counter magic up to play everything, what happens when you tap down to two for Snapper on turn 5 and they play 2 or more threats? Tapping mana on your own turn for anything but a game winner should be avoided, and Snapper and Jace are not really game winners.
Also, for 4 mana being +1 CA and gain 3 life, see Captured Sunlight. That card was bad, and it gained you 4 life and +1 CA. Using the soak arguement for Planeswalkers isn't very legit, because that's not why you play them.
Let's say Jace nets you +3 CA on average. This takes multiple turns, at one point or another costs you 4 mana, and can be done at sorcery speed. You can pay three for Divinations +1 immediate payoff, also at instant speed, or you can pay 5 mana to have a +1/+2 at the end of their turn with Mysteries of the deep. I am fine paying the extra mana to avoid my opponent sneaking some threat in somehow.
It's fairly obvious we aren't going to agree on this, so we will just have to see how the results point.
Awesome, you are a master escape artist.
So where is the argument against Snapper? You totally ignored the crux of my post.
Also, you are completely neglecting the versatility of a planeswalker. You compare it to Captured Sunlight, but do you realise Jace is a Captured Sunlight when you want him to be that, or when the situation determines it.
Jace gives you a lot of choices and that makes him more than a Captured Sunlight, or whatever you want to compare him to. Because he can be any of those, therein lies his potential.
Suffice to say, Jace is a bomb, almost as strong as resolving a Cruel Ultimatum, except thats its 4 mana and it just takes 2 turns.
All you need is for it to survive to use his abilities, any ability, twice.
Sure, you might dispute what I might say.
Why not lets make a bet? I predict Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Calcite Snapper will definitely make a showing in Grixis Control or any deck running strictly UBR colours in the top32 of GP Kuala Lumpur.
Loser must attach something in his signature saying he is wrong about his testings against matchups and is spreading skewed information.
If we play the snapper should we not play more then 4 fetchlands ?
I don't really think so. There won't be a lot of times where you would want Calcite Snapper to become 4/1 during your opponent's turn. Its not really meant to kill anything, it is just meant to stall.
Its only when you start to control your opponent's board that you start turning it into a 4/1 (during your turn) as an attacker.
I really don't get why some people still hate it. I think its because they don't see "Shroud" or because they just don't want to playtest with it. I've read a couple of "dies to Earthquake" comments, which is just plain stu--- not smart.
People don't like snapper because it doesn't fit the theme of the deck. It looks like an ordinary turtle creature and doesn't match the evil colors that are grixis. people like the idea of running a creatureless deck besides finishers, it appeals to their sense of pride.
That being said. People also dislike change and having to change what has been working for them. People are slow to adopt new strategies because they are afraid they will be less in control.
I traded my jaces away last night at FNM. Jace is a really cool card but he is just...bad. Overall he's a big threat but having him as a t4 walker who has to use his terrible +1 to keep himself out of bolt range. He is bulky and does not fit into this deck as much as you all are trying to fool yourselves into thinking.
And no way in hell is jace compared to a resolved cruel.
Regarding the snapper: I'm not against it..but i honestly don't think it is worth a slot in this deck. Now i guess you could say i am naive because i haven't yet actually tested the turtle but i did manage to go 4-0 last night at fnm with my new list which i will post below. If you want to run the turtle tell me why other than its a staller, its a really bad wall of denial that needs landfall to be converted into this *awesome offensive card* you are all raving about. He can be killed by leech and a lot of relevant creatures and he can't block anything that matters *aka flying* i really don't see the bonuses to devoting slots to a color intensive chump blocker. I can appreciate the desire to add more creatures into the deck to get more bang for your buck with cruel ultimatum and the ability to supply some early game (t4-t5) so last night i ran abyssal persecutor as a 3-of. Persecutor was absolutely amazing you just have to have a design of his demise when your opponent finally falls into kill range. Not only did i use him as a beater but at 4cc he can easily chump/kill the biggest threat on your opponents board. It can block and kill a baneslayer, a broodmate dragon, jwar isle sphinx. While this card exists in the format you are all still debating over a shrouded turtle. Now i knowww he doesn't have shroud but this is cruel control, you should be able to protect your creature because out of the 4 rounds of fnm last night he was only removed once by an oblivion ring. When i play i always hate the awkward t4 t5 turns because thats you standing there hoping your counters will get you there until you land a sphinx. Persuctor bridges that gap with a huge 6/6. Now while your counters can get you past those turns its a lot easier with him staring down your opponent. Also creeping tarpits is amazing to send on the offensive at some sort of stalemate you always can use him to bring your opponents into the red. There are so many good things about persectuor and just because of his little platinum angel effect shouldn't cause any discression when running him. Black has never had any problems killing its own creatures.
Now here is the list i ran last night and i'll post the changes i would make:
I'll do brief summaries of the games and then i'll get down to deck *revision*
Round one - Jund
Jund was not a problem at all because this particular build runs so many counters and so much removal that he cannot maintain any board presence..i'm debating whether or not to MD about 2 DNs a solid hard cancel but can work wonders against BBE. Game one i managed to beat his face in with my presecutor and when he arrived at 0 life i terminated him and it was over G2 i kept an opening hand of 3 land 2 Flashfreeze 1 essence scatter and a spreading seas. I got off two cruels to end the game.
R2: U/W Control (with enchantments with mesa enchantress, sigil of the empty throne.)
I lost G1 because he just managed to counter the 3 cruels i threw out and he was making angels faster than i could counter it.
G2: was a lot better i got off two early game duresses fishing out both of his counters and i managed to beat him down with 2 malakir bloodwitches because yeey pro white his wall of Denials couldn't do anything.
G3: ran out the clock but on the last 5 i crueled him back to back ending the game.
This deck was ridiculous it ran 4, convincing mirage, 4 spreading seas it kept me off my colors for so long. Not so long that i couldnt cast spells but i couldn't even cast cruel til around turn 11. G3 he tried to run out the timer gripping a cancel and leaving it open for the cruel he knew was coming, but with like 15 mana out i had a hand of 2 negate and a cruel and he was at 3 life. It was over
Round 3: Mono Green Beats
G1 i nearly lost because he managed to land consecutive turns of rampaging baloths and on paper it doesn't seem like much but until its hitting you every turn it starts to hurt. I countered the first two but he managed to play all four game one. Someone was stacking... Anyway he nearly got me before i could stabilize with chandra *blowing up his last baloth* Because he kept primal bellowsing it so he could swing for 8-9 damage with that dude. And now while i drew most of those combos out so i could terminate its face it was still scary. Following chandra was jwar jwar to block anything coming out followed by a turn 7 cruel. Sided in the flashfreeze and i opened with 3 lands 2 Flashfreeze 1 Terminate 1 Essence Scatter. I stalled out and managed to stall his baloths with my persecutor *not sure why he kept attacking* i mean he had a visionary and a baloth did he really want that 1 dmg to get through? anyway... Turn 7 cruel and thats all she wrote.
3-0 and i was feeling pretty good (of course the night i decide not to pay...)
Round 4 was against Barely Boros.
A red white deck that runs skyfisher guides, hellsparks, geopedes...and burn.
G1: He straight beat me down before i could stabilize i was dead on t6..i landed a sphinx but i was at 3 life and was faced down with a guide, a skyfisher, and a geopede. Not a lot i can do
G2: I keep an awesome opening hand of 2 land *skeptical* but a persecutor and 4 counters/kill. He plays a guide and digs me 2 more lands which makes me like omgggg hotness. anyways i was able to stabilize with counters and a sorin who got up to 12 counters then mindslavered him. (QUESTION: Lightning bolt is target creature or player...can you bolt yourself? We weren't sure.) I cruel'd him the following turn. Sorin'd him for 2. then double bolted him (he was at 10 life)
G3: While i was nearly able to stabilize he was able to Ruinblast my lands twice which kept me off my second source of red for the dual terminate he had coming next turn that would've let me land my sorin +2 his goblin guide and let me live. but...oh well
Overall a pretty successful night...now the changes i would make.
In a few games i had a hard time finding finishers *cruel ultimatum/sphinx* i might bump up the cruel count to 4.
You might never hear this but i drew bolts way more frequently than i wanted to so i might drop it to 3.
Persecutor is amazing and i made sure i had my playset by the end of last night, but 3-3 creatures doesn't feel right since my sphinxes are untouchable i might drop the sphinx down 1 and just go 3-2 creatures in favor of persecutor.
Earthquakes were amazing sweepers and burn...i might bring the count up 1.
Chandra was solid but i think in most situations i'd rather have had a sorin. So i might just go 2-1 in favor of Sorin but i'm not quite sure.
The Mana was good but i might include another tar pit in place of...probably an island.
Sideboarding: Spreading seas wasn't of much use outside of jund, i'll probably devote it to something more practical.
Duress was amazing as was the bloodwitch.
I might want to bring Flashfreeze up to 4 because while i didn't expect it to be nearly as necessary as it was pre-WWK its apparent to me that R/G aggro is by no means dead.
Negate was obviously good in control matchups.
Overall i think for next week i will make the following changes
-1 Chandra +1 Sorin
-1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle -1 Lighting Bolt /1 Cruel Ultimatum 1 Earthquake
-2 Negate MD +2 Double Negative MD
Sideboard
-3 Spreading Seas +1 Flashfreeze +2 Negate
And...thats about it... Thanks for reading - please feel free to comment constructive criticism is always welcome.
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
... Persecutor was absolutely amazing you just have to have a design of his demise when your opponent finally falls into kill range. Not only did i use him as a beater but at 4cc he can easily chump/kill the biggest threat on your opponents board. It can block and kill a baneslayer, a broodmate dragon, jwar isle sphinx.
...
Sorry to bother you Beginning_n_End, but if your awesome Abyssal Persecutor managed to block and kill a Baneslayer Angel, then you just cheated.
Some people fail to remember that Baneslayer is not only a 5/5 lifelink first strike...
I traded my jaces away last night at FNM. Jace is a really cool card but he is just...bad. Overall he's a big threat but having him as a t4 walker who has to use his terrible +1 to keep himself out of bolt range. He is bulky and does not fit into this deck as much as you all are trying to fool yourselves into thinking.
What is your strategy against an opposing Jace? Or do you just punt that matchup?
I traded my jaces away last night at FNM. Jace is a really cool card but he is just...bad. Overall he's a big threat but having him as a t4 walker who has to use his terrible +1 to keep himself out of bolt range. He is bulky and does not fit into this deck as much as you all are trying to fool yourselves into thinking.
And no way in hell is jace compared to a resolved cruel.
Regarding the snapper: I'm not against it..but i honestly don't think it is worth a slot in this deck. Now i guess you could say i am naive because i haven't yet actually tested the turtle but i did manage to go 4-0 last night at fnm with my new list which i will post below. If you want to run the turtle tell me why other than its a staller, its a really bad wall of denial that needs landfall to be converted into this *awesome offensive card* you are all raving about. He can be killed by leech and a lot of relevant creatures and he can't block anything that matters *aka flying* i really don't see the bonuses to devoting slots to a color intensive chump blocker. I can appreciate the desire to add more creatures into the deck to get more bang for your buck with cruel ultimatum and the ability to supply some early game (t4-t5) so last night i ran abyssal persecutor as a 3-of. Persecutor was absolutely amazing you just have to have a design of his demise when your opponent finally falls into kill range. Not only did i use him as a beater but at 4cc he can easily chump/kill the biggest threat on your opponents board. It can block and kill a baneslayer, a broodmate dragon, jwar isle sphinx. While this card exists in the format you are all still debating over a shrouded turtle. Now i knowww he doesn't have shroud but this is cruel control, you should be able to protect your creature because out of the 4 rounds of fnm last night he was only removed once by an oblivion ring. When i play i always hate the awkward t4 t5 turns because thats you standing there hoping your counters will get you there until you land a sphinx. Persuctor bridges that gap with a huge 6/6. Now while your counters can get you past those turns its a lot easier with him staring down your opponent. Also creeping tarpits is amazing to send on the offensive at some sort of stalemate you always can use him to bring your opponents into the red. There are so many good things about persectuor and just because of his little platinum angel effect shouldn't cause any discression when running him. Black has never had any problems killing its own creatures.
Now here is the list i ran last night and i'll post the changes i would make:
I'll do brief summaries of the games and then i'll get down to deck *revision*
Round one - Jund
Jund was not a problem at all because this particular build runs so many counters and so much removal that he cannot maintain any board presence..i'm debating whether or not to MD about 2 DNs a solid hard cancel but can work wonders against BBE. Game one i managed to beat his face in with my presecutor and when he arrived at 0 life i terminated him and it was over G2 i kept an opening hand of 3 land 2 Flashfreeze 1 essence scatter and a spreading seas. I got off two cruels to end the game.
R2: U/W Control (with enchantments with mesa enchantress, sigil of the empty throne.)
I lost G1 because he just managed to counter the 3 cruels i threw out and he was making angels faster than i could counter it.
G2: was a lot better i got off two early game duresses fishing out both of his counters and i managed to beat him down with 2 malakir bloodwitches because yeey pro white his wall of Denials couldn't do anything.
G3: ran out the clock but on the last 5 i crueled him back to back ending the game.
This deck was ridiculous it ran 4, convincing mirage, 4 spreading seas it kept me off my colors for so long. Not so long that i couldnt cast spells but i couldn't even cast cruel til around turn 11. G3 he tried to run out the timer gripping a cancel and leaving it open for the cruel he knew was coming, but with like 15 mana out i had a hand of 2 negate and a cruel and he was at 3 life. It was over
Round 3: Mono Green Beats
G1 i nearly lost because he managed to land consecutive turns of rampaging baloths and on paper it doesn't seem like much but until its hitting you every turn it starts to hurt. I countered the first two but he managed to play all four game one. Someone was stacking... Anyway he nearly got me before i could stabilize with chandra *blowing up his last baloth* Because he kept primal bellowsing it so he could swing for 8-9 damage with that dude. And now while i drew most of those combos out so i could terminate its face it was still scary. Following chandra was jwar jwar to block anything coming out followed by a turn 7 cruel. Sided in the flashfreeze and i opened with 3 lands 2 Flashfreeze 1 Terminate 1 Essence Scatter. I stalled out and managed to stall his baloths with my persecutor *not sure why he kept attacking* i mean he had a visionary and a baloth did he really want that 1 dmg to get through? anyway... Turn 7 cruel and thats all she wrote.
3-0 and i was feeling pretty good (of course the night i decide not to pay...)
Round 4 was against Barely Boros.
A red white deck that runs skyfisher guides, hellsparks, geopedes...and burn.
G1: He straight beat me down before i could stabilize i was dead on t6..i landed a sphinx but i was at 3 life and was faced down with a guide, a skyfisher, and a geopede. Not a lot i can do
G2: I keep an awesome opening hand of 2 land *skeptical* but a persecutor and 4 counters/kill. He plays a guide and digs me 2 more lands which makes me like omgggg hotness. anyways i was able to stabilize with counters and a sorin who got up to 12 counters then mindslavered him. (QUESTION: Lightning bolt is target creature or player...can you bolt yourself? We weren't sure.) I cruel'd him the following turn. Sorin'd him for 2. then double bolted him (he was at 10 life)
G3: While i was nearly able to stabilize he was able to Ruinblast my lands twice which kept me off my second source of red for the dual terminate he had coming next turn that would've let me land my sorin +2 his goblin guide and let me live. but...oh well
Overall a pretty successful night...now the changes i would make.
In a few games i had a hard time finding finishers *cruel ultimatum/sphinx* i might bump up the cruel count to 4.
You might never hear this but i drew bolts way more frequently than i wanted to so i might drop it to 3.
Persecutor is amazing and i made sure i had my playset by the end of last night, but 3-3 creatures doesn't feel right since my sphinxes are untouchable i might drop the sphinx down 1 and just go 3-2 creatures in favor of persecutor.
Earthquakes were amazing sweepers and burn...i might bring the count up 1.
Chandra was solid but i think in most situations i'd rather have had a sorin. So i might just go 2-1 in favor of Sorin but i'm not quite sure.
The Mana was good but i might include another tar pit in place of...probably an island.
Sideboarding: Spreading seas wasn't of much use outside of jund, i'll probably devote it to something more practical.
Duress was amazing as was the bloodwitch.
I might want to bring Flashfreeze up to 4 because while i didn't expect it to be nearly as necessary as it was pre-WWK its apparent to me that R/G aggro is by no means dead.
Negate was obviously good in control matchups.
Overall i think for next week i will make the following changes
-1 Chandra +1 Sorin
-1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle -1 Lighting Bolt /1 Cruel Ultimatum 1 Earthquake
-2 Negate MD +2 Double Negative MD
Sideboard
-3 Spreading Seas +1 Flashfreeze +2 Negate
And...thats about it... Thanks for reading - please feel free to comment constructive criticism is always welcome.
Notice that this was a FNM and there was only 1 real matchup, which is Jund.
Note the lack of planeswalkers, and other expensive stuff in opposing decks and that this was more of a casual tournament.
If you want to post a list and justify it with results, do so at GPTs or MTGO PEs and Standard Daily's.
PS: How did I know there was a lack of 'walkers like Nissa? Because he is actually questioning the effectiveness of Bolt.
QUESTION: Lightning bolt is target creature or player...can you bolt yourself? We weren't sure.
Target player means target player-- any player, including you. Just like target opponent means any of the spell's controller's opponents (usually everyone else but you).
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
i dont think its necessary to pick apart every little detail. math is wrong not a big deal.
we need some more hard results instead of theory crafting if jace is good here or not.
is treasure hunt no good here or has anyone really tried it yet?
It is necessary.
And yes both cards should be used, in a different grixis build. The standard grixis people are playing works IMO, perfect. This new grixis is closer to a midrange, and i think would do better in a flores type build.
@ pakito
yeah my bad lol, it didn't actually occur but if it did i would have surely recognized the pro demons and dragons...just was throwing out examples of cards that are *weaker* than persecutor but are still large threats.
@ Corp T
Well the jace would either be dead, or countered. He really doesn't present that much of a problem in my eyes anyway.
You may be right about the draw, what do you reccomend? Sign in blood has been amazing, in terms of added draw how about md spreading seas...or just 2-3 divination ontop of the SIBs?
@ Deceiver
I know it was just an fnm but how is anyone supposed to get any testing done if they waited just for PTQs to roll around. Fnm is a good place to test the synyrgy of your deck. Now while there are always the noobs with homebrew crap there are some legitimate decks.
I don't question the effectiveness of bolt but i was often already gripping one and i would much rather topdeck something other than a second. I'm not failing to acknowledge it as the amazing card that it is i'm just explaining my experience with the numbers.
@ Jb/Gx
Just for dramatic effect to show him that he had no chance lol.
Treasure hunt is far too much effort for little results in order to maximize its usefulness you need halimar depths, the new jace, and i guess ponder? The extra draw benefits aren't really worth the overall drag it would put on the deck.
@Juju
Thanks for clearing that up
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As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
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Commander:
GBWKarador Infinite Combo
UBWZur the Random Enchanter
RWGisela (Book of Revelations Theme)
4 Courier's Capsule
Creatures
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Instants
3 Essence Scatter
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Negate
3 Spell Contortion
4 Terminate
Planeswalkers
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin Markov
2 Chain Reaction
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Divination
Basic Lands
3 Island
2 Mountain
4 Swamp
Lands
4 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Duress
3 Flashfreeze
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Pithing Needle
3 Vampire Nighthawk
So I've been playing Grixis Control now as of a few weeks pre-zendikar till now and this was attempt #1 at intergrating worldwake into my deck for my last night FNM. Results were great, ended up going 3-1 with my only losses to a Violent Ultimatum land destruction deck; not really due to not being able to 'control' it but due to hitting en-mass landfloods in both games (topdecking 9 lands in a row gee gee?).
The new jace is a house; you don't need defence for him if you can see your opponent is land screwed/flooded; just drop him turn four and fiddle with their top card (help them mana flood/screw more) while you safely put down your win conditions and score a clear victory. While I can say its easy to feel greedy and want to put several in a deck I just don't want to find myself in the situations where you have dead cards in hand; something that regularly occured when I was running 3x jace1 + 3x chandra with a much older version of my deck. I feel he has easily earned a place as another one-of alternative win condition.
Singleton Creeping Tar Pit helped finish games a turn or two earlier then normal speeding up roundtimes; once again however > 5 into play tapped lands in a 60 card cruel control seems to be too big a drawback.
Resolving Chain Reaction worked everytime to wipe the board come turn four; dropped edrazi elves like a rock and vampires just fellover. I do miss some of Earthquakes advantages (planeswalker removal, use as a banefire to finish) but I feel this a strong card that has found a place in Grixis Control.
Single/Double Kicking a Spell Contortion was a nice breath of fresh air, worried about a major meta change to Vampires/WW I moved my flashfreezes into sideboard and thought I'd give the new counter a spin. It rocks against aggro decks but in the control matchups quite often the two mana is easily paid for by your opponent; in a few situations I played it to benefit from the cantrip and drew an alternative answer (Terminate, Jace, Cruel ty!)
So.... where does this deck leave more to be desired? I feel right now the lack of instant draws leaves a major weakness; Courier's Capsule is close to the only playable 'almost-instant' draw we have access to that is reliable yet its weaknesses are abound (artifact hate seems to have become very popular at my local store with the introduction of wordwake). Divination is terrible but once again there isn't many other options. I WANT to use Treasure Hunt... however showing them my new answer isn't exactly what I had in mind.... at least it'd stop mana flooding though right?
I think you should just test it out extensively before just plain thinking about what a card CAN'T do. Here's what usually happens in my experience:
Block Leech and die (on the 4th turn can kill the leech LOL). - it forces Putrid Leech to pump, where you promptly Bolt it in response. If my opponent played Leech on turn 2, I don't tapping out to play anything is always the best play anyway.
Can't block Broodmate. - the card is meant to be used to stall early, not block late game finishers.
Die to a kickered Gatekeeper. - same with every other creature. Even those not in Magic: The Gathering.
Die to Earthquake. - On the contrary, it survives what Earthquake is usually played for, which is 2-3 damage.
Can't block Great Sable Stag. - Neither can Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
Block Ball Lightning and die. - don't block it and YOU die.
Block Elemental Appeal and die. - see above
Can't block Baneslayer. - same as the Broodmate Dragon comment.
tl:dr
Are you dense or something? You completely ignore the fact that Snapper is 3 mana?
You completely ignore the other important fact that Snapper can stall the board against 70% of the 4 mana and less CMC creature drops that aggro?
Snapper is a staller ffs. Him being able to become a finisher after stalling for so long is amazing, whereas Sphinx is just a finisher and taps out for 1 turn completely. Snapper can be played from turn 3 to 6 even with mana up for counters or removal.
And I dont know how you have been testing or what you have been testing against, because for me, against decks like Jund, White Weenie, NissaMonument, Jace is IMBA.
He is almost always good and maintains the board position amazingly well. I can safely say that every Jace I play always gains me +1 card advantage and gain 3 life or bounce 2 creatures and +1 CA. His ability to dig for 3 is also very relevant because it allows me to find answers, shuffle away unneeded cards with fetchland or just ensure my Treasure Hunt draws 3 or more cards.
Yep, totally dense.
I also test against Tier 1 decks, and Jace was always underwhelming. If you draw him, and not Snapper, you have to wait until turns 6-7 to play him with protection. Even with Snapper, and even if you wait until you always have counter magic up to play everything, what happens when you tap down to two for Snapper on turn 5 and they play 2 or more threats? Tapping mana on your own turn for anything but a game winner should be avoided, and Snapper and Jace are not really game winners.
Also, for 4 mana being +1 CA and gain 3 life, see Captured Sunlight. That card was bad, and it gained you 4 life and +1 CA. Using the soak arguement for Planeswalkers isn't very legit, because that's not why you play them.
Let's say Jace nets you +3 CA on average. This takes multiple turns, at one point or another costs you 4 mana, and can be done at sorcery speed. You can pay three for Divinations +1 immediate payoff, also at instant speed, or you can pay 5 mana to have a +1/+2 at the end of their turn with Mysteries of the deep. I am fine paying the extra mana to avoid my opponent sneaking some threat in somehow.
It's fairly obvious we aren't going to agree on this, so we will just have to see how the results point.
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
The one of Sorin is still a house. Just like Jace, you have Snapper's to protect him for a few turns to Mindslaver and set up your big turn. The only thing is the triple black, but Cruel Ultimatum isn't a problem so...
The manlands get better after board as you have less removal for them.
Jace is ridic. Moving on.
The only concern with Halimar Depths is that if you want to run manlands and this, you have an awful lot of lands coming into play tapped. This can be a bit of a problem.
You can run Jace out there more often than you think against control. In fact, you almost want to. You control aggro by playing stuff like Calcite Snapper. And if you do play Jace T4, then by playing it you make them have to kill it, otherwise you just got a huge source of CA. Think of Jace as replacing Mind Spring and Treasure Hunt as replacing Courier's Capsule/Divination, and you get a good idea on how to treat and play the cards.
Lands
4X Dragonskull Summit
4X Drowned Catacombs
4X Scalding Tarn
4X Crumbling Necropolis
2X Halimar Depths
1X Lavaclaw Reaches
3X Island
3X Swamp
2X Mountain
=27 lands
Spells
4X Calcite Snapper
4X Terminate
4X Lightning Bolt
4X Essence Scatter
4X Treasure Hunt
3X Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4X Cruel Ultimatum
2X Double Negative
2X Negate
2X Flashfreeze
Ok, first the 27th land is added fuel for the treasure hunts while also being a manland who can attack/block as necessary. Calcite Snapper is just the real deal and does everything sphinx does and more. He blocks early and beats late when the board is clean anyhow, hitting nearly as hard as sphinx for considerably less mana. In my testingm Jace has been nearly unstoppable even t4 unprotected (so long as the board is clean before u cast her). I cut earthquake mostly because I feel the online meta will shift dramatically towards control (at least at first) and its just not great there. Also the fact that snapper blocks what quake would normally kill is another reason they are needed much less. Flashfreeze is just a 2 mana counterspell that you hope is relevant because we need (6) two mana creature counters to have a reasonable shot at having 1 in our opener. I added the 4th cruel ultimatum because this card is just amazing and I always want to cast this t7/8/9.
Thats all I have for now
I tested turtle extensively today and it rocked the house. I firmly believe in it. I only play three but that is because space is limited and you can get it back with CU.
Love the card...TURTLE POWER!!!
Temporarily retired from the game
Thanks a bunch to Rivenor from Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the awesome sigpic!
Rage quit reason of the moment:
Awesome, you are a master escape artist.
So where is the argument against Snapper? You totally ignored the crux of my post.
Also, you are completely neglecting the versatility of a planeswalker. You compare it to Captured Sunlight, but do you realise Jace is a Captured Sunlight when you want him to be that, or when the situation determines it.
Jace gives you a lot of choices and that makes him more than a Captured Sunlight, or whatever you want to compare him to. Because he can be any of those, therein lies his potential.
Suffice to say, Jace is a bomb, almost as strong as resolving a Cruel Ultimatum, except thats its 4 mana and it just takes 2 turns.
All you need is for it to survive to use his abilities, any ability, twice.
Sure, you might dispute what I might say.
Why not lets make a bet? I predict Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Calcite Snapper will definitely make a showing in Grixis Control or any deck running strictly UBR colours in the top32 of GP Kuala Lumpur.
Loser must attach something in his signature saying he is wrong about his testings against matchups and is spreading skewed information.
I don't really think so. There won't be a lot of times where you would want Calcite Snapper to become 4/1 during your opponent's turn. Its not really meant to kill anything, it is just meant to stall.
Its only when you start to control your opponent's board that you start turning it into a 4/1 (during your turn) as an attacker.
I really don't get why some people still hate it. I think its because they don't see "Shroud" or because they just don't want to playtest with it. I've read a couple of "dies to Earthquake" comments, which is just plain stu--- not smart.
That being said. People also dislike change and having to change what has been working for them. People are slow to adopt new strategies because they are afraid they will be less in control.
You can apply this to life.
And no way in hell is jace compared to a resolved cruel.
Regarding the snapper: I'm not against it..but i honestly don't think it is worth a slot in this deck. Now i guess you could say i am naive because i haven't yet actually tested the turtle but i did manage to go 4-0 last night at fnm with my new list which i will post below. If you want to run the turtle tell me why other than its a staller, its a really bad wall of denial that needs landfall to be converted into this *awesome offensive card* you are all raving about. He can be killed by leech and a lot of relevant creatures and he can't block anything that matters *aka flying* i really don't see the bonuses to devoting slots to a color intensive chump blocker. I can appreciate the desire to add more creatures into the deck to get more bang for your buck with cruel ultimatum and the ability to supply some early game (t4-t5) so last night i ran abyssal persecutor as a 3-of. Persecutor was absolutely amazing you just have to have a design of his demise when your opponent finally falls into kill range. Not only did i use him as a beater but at 4cc he can easily chump/kill the biggest threat on your opponents board. It can block and kill a baneslayer, a broodmate dragon, jwar isle sphinx. While this card exists in the format you are all still debating over a shrouded turtle. Now i knowww he doesn't have shroud but this is cruel control, you should be able to protect your creature because out of the 4 rounds of fnm last night he was only removed once by an oblivion ring. When i play i always hate the awkward t4 t5 turns because thats you standing there hoping your counters will get you there until you land a sphinx. Persuctor bridges that gap with a huge 6/6. Now while your counters can get you past those turns its a lot easier with him staring down your opponent. Also creeping tarpits is amazing to send on the offensive at some sort of stalemate you always can use him to bring your opponents into the red. There are so many good things about persectuor and just because of his little platinum angel effect shouldn't cause any discression when running him. Black has never had any problems killing its own creatures.
Now here is the list i ran last night and i'll post the changes i would make:
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Creeping Tarpit
4 Crumbling Necropolis
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Swamp
3 Island
2 Mountain
Creatures
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Sign in Blood
2 Negate
2 Chandra Nalaar
2 Earthquake
3 Cruel Utlimatum
4 Terminate
1 Sorin Markov
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Essence Scatter
4 Duress
3 Spreading Seas
3 Flashfreeze
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Negate
I'll do brief summaries of the games and then i'll get down to deck *revision*
Round one - Jund
Jund was not a problem at all because this particular build runs so many counters and so much removal that he cannot maintain any board presence..i'm debating whether or not to MD about 2 DNs a solid hard cancel but can work wonders against BBE. Game one i managed to beat his face in with my presecutor and when he arrived at 0 life i terminated him and it was over G2 i kept an opening hand of 3 land 2 Flashfreeze 1 essence scatter and a spreading seas. I got off two cruels to end the game.
R2: U/W Control (with enchantments with mesa enchantress, sigil of the empty throne.)
I lost G1 because he just managed to counter the 3 cruels i threw out and he was making angels faster than i could counter it.
G2: was a lot better i got off two early game duresses fishing out both of his counters and i managed to beat him down with 2 malakir bloodwitches because yeey pro white his wall of Denials couldn't do anything.
G3: ran out the clock but on the last 5 i crueled him back to back ending the game.
This deck was ridiculous it ran 4, convincing mirage, 4 spreading seas it kept me off my colors for so long. Not so long that i couldnt cast spells but i couldn't even cast cruel til around turn 11. G3 he tried to run out the timer gripping a cancel and leaving it open for the cruel he knew was coming, but with like 15 mana out i had a hand of 2 negate and a cruel and he was at 3 life. It was over
Round 3: Mono Green Beats
G1 i nearly lost because he managed to land consecutive turns of rampaging baloths and on paper it doesn't seem like much but until its hitting you every turn it starts to hurt. I countered the first two but he managed to play all four game one. Someone was stacking... Anyway he nearly got me before i could stabilize with chandra *blowing up his last baloth* Because he kept primal bellowsing it so he could swing for 8-9 damage with that dude. And now while i drew most of those combos out so i could terminate its face it was still scary. Following chandra was jwar jwar to block anything coming out followed by a turn 7 cruel. Sided in the flashfreeze and i opened with 3 lands 2 Flashfreeze 1 Terminate 1 Essence Scatter. I stalled out and managed to stall his baloths with my persecutor *not sure why he kept attacking* i mean he had a visionary and a baloth did he really want that 1 dmg to get through? anyway... Turn 7 cruel and thats all she wrote.
3-0 and i was feeling pretty good (of course the night i decide not to pay...)
Round 4 was against Barely Boros.
A red white deck that runs skyfisher guides, hellsparks, geopedes...and burn.
G1: He straight beat me down before i could stabilize i was dead on t6..i landed a sphinx but i was at 3 life and was faced down with a guide, a skyfisher, and a geopede. Not a lot i can do
G2: I keep an awesome opening hand of 2 land *skeptical* but a persecutor and 4 counters/kill. He plays a guide and digs me 2 more lands which makes me like omgggg hotness. anyways i was able to stabilize with counters and a sorin who got up to 12 counters then mindslavered him. (QUESTION: Lightning bolt is target creature or player...can you bolt yourself? We weren't sure.) I cruel'd him the following turn. Sorin'd him for 2. then double bolted him (he was at 10 life)
G3: While i was nearly able to stabilize he was able to Ruinblast my lands twice which kept me off my second source of red for the dual terminate he had coming next turn that would've let me land my sorin +2 his goblin guide and let me live. but...oh well
Overall a pretty successful night...now the changes i would make.
In a few games i had a hard time finding finishers *cruel ultimatum/sphinx* i might bump up the cruel count to 4.
You might never hear this but i drew bolts way more frequently than i wanted to so i might drop it to 3.
Persecutor is amazing and i made sure i had my playset by the end of last night, but 3-3 creatures doesn't feel right since my sphinxes are untouchable i might drop the sphinx down 1 and just go 3-2 creatures in favor of persecutor.
Earthquakes were amazing sweepers and burn...i might bring the count up 1.
Chandra was solid but i think in most situations i'd rather have had a sorin. So i might just go 2-1 in favor of Sorin but i'm not quite sure.
The Mana was good but i might include another tar pit in place of...probably an island.
Sideboarding: Spreading seas wasn't of much use outside of jund, i'll probably devote it to something more practical.
Duress was amazing as was the bloodwitch.
I might want to bring Flashfreeze up to 4 because while i didn't expect it to be nearly as necessary as it was pre-WWK its apparent to me that R/G aggro is by no means dead.
Negate was obviously good in control matchups.
Overall i think for next week i will make the following changes
-1 Chandra +1 Sorin
-1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle -1 Lighting Bolt /1 Cruel Ultimatum 1 Earthquake
-2 Negate MD +2 Double Negative MD
Sideboard
-3 Spreading Seas +1 Flashfreeze +2 Negate
And...thats about it... Thanks for reading - please feel free to comment constructive criticism is always welcome.
Playing: Standard
UWGMythic ConscriptionUWG
47-4-2
UBR Grixis RBU (Retired) 23-17-2
Playing: EDH
Zur the Enchanter
Malfegor
I'm convinced that Snapper should be in the deck. It can serve as finishing material.
The card I'm not impressed by is Sphinx of Jwar Isle. Sure, it's big and all, but it's just too slow.
Twitter
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Commander:
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UBWZur the Random Enchanter
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Sorry to bother you Beginning_n_End, but if your awesome Abyssal Persecutor managed to block and kill a Baneslayer Angel, then you just cheated.
Some people fail to remember that Baneslayer is not only a 5/5 lifelink first strike...
What is your strategy against an opposing Jace? Or do you just punt that matchup?
The problem is not lack of Cruels, but lack of card draw in your deck.
Notice that this was a FNM and there was only 1 real matchup, which is Jund.
Note the lack of planeswalkers, and other expensive stuff in opposing decks and that this was more of a casual tournament.
If you want to post a list and justify it with results, do so at GPTs or MTGO PEs and Standard Daily's.
PS: How did I know there was a lack of 'walkers like Nissa? Because he is actually questioning the effectiveness of Bolt.
10life-5cruel=5life-2sorin=3life-3bolt=0life-3bolt=-3life.
why did you cast an extra bolt?
i dont think its necessary to pick apart every little detail. math is wrong not a big deal.
we need some more hard results instead of theory crafting if jace is good here or not.
is treasure hunt no good here or has anyone really tried it yet?
Target player means target player-- any player, including you. Just like target opponent means any of the spell's controller's opponents (usually everyone else but you).
Sig by ChibiSwan~!
"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi."
Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
It is necessary.
And yes both cards should be used, in a different grixis build. The standard grixis people are playing works IMO, perfect. This new grixis is closer to a midrange, and i think would do better in a flores type build.
yeah my bad lol, it didn't actually occur but if it did i would have surely recognized the pro demons and dragons...just was throwing out examples of cards that are *weaker* than persecutor but are still large threats.
@ Corp T
Well the jace would either be dead, or countered. He really doesn't present that much of a problem in my eyes anyway.
You may be right about the draw, what do you reccomend? Sign in blood has been amazing, in terms of added draw how about md spreading seas...or just 2-3 divination ontop of the SIBs?
@ Deceiver
I know it was just an fnm but how is anyone supposed to get any testing done if they waited just for PTQs to roll around. Fnm is a good place to test the synyrgy of your deck. Now while there are always the noobs with homebrew crap there are some legitimate decks.
I don't question the effectiveness of bolt but i was often already gripping one and i would much rather topdeck something other than a second. I'm not failing to acknowledge it as the amazing card that it is i'm just explaining my experience with the numbers.
@ Jb/Gx
Just for dramatic effect to show him that he had no chance lol.
Treasure hunt is far too much effort for little results in order to maximize its usefulness you need halimar depths, the new jace, and i guess ponder? The extra draw benefits aren't really worth the overall drag it would put on the deck.
@Juju
Thanks for clearing that up
Playing: Standard
UWGMythic ConscriptionUWG
47-4-2
UBR Grixis RBU (Retired) 23-17-2
Playing: EDH
Zur the Enchanter
Malfegor