Firstly, I have no idea at all where to post this thread, so I'm sorry in advance, mods. Move it to where it needs to be, please. I was perusing the decklists of Pro-Tour Kyoto's standard portion and I saw some things in Gabriel Nassif's winning list that challenged my understanding. Please help shed some light on this list.
I don't understand, first of all, how a bunch of random 1-ofs are going to help you with no Gifts or Tutor effects. How does 1 random Wispmare help solve anything in STD?
What about 1 random Remove Soul?
What does Wydwen, the Biting Gale do for the deck?
Is Wall of Reverence really a playable card in serious competition? I barely...nearly don't...believe in Plumeveil as-it-is.
Is Volcanic Fallout really enough board sweep to solve most STD aggro matchups, or is this just a coincidence that this list worked?
I know Gabriel Nassif is a more-than-competent player, but this list just doesn't make sense for all the reasons listed above. Any light you guys can help shed on this will be much appreciated. Thanks, phyremynd.
Chapin's article at midnight should shed some light on some of the choices but here's my guesses:
1) He doesn't have any tutor effects but he has plenty of card draw + clash from Broken ambitions. Needle is something you really only want to see once per game, and you have enough card draw that you're able to see it enough without having Needle be a dead draw. The reason it's only 1-of is because it's dead in some matchups but stellar in others. Similar reasoning for Purge. Purge also fulfills the same role as terror usually, however it's able to hit Ajani Vengeant and not things like War Monk.
2) Same reasoning for Remove Soul. The deck wants another one in the side me thinks, but there is no room for a second.
3) Wydwen is great against the mirror and Faeries. It's an early flash threat turn 4, and an easy to protect flash threat turns 6-8. Not to mention that, unlike Thresher, Wydwen is basically immune to Terror, Agony Warp, and Sower provided you leave the mana open. Plumeveil is amazing, it is basically good in every non-5cc matchup including Faeries since it kills clique/multiple blossoms, comes in on their turn, and is a TERRIBLE sower target.
4) Between Wall, Dragon, Plumeveil, Fallout, Cryptic, and the various spot removal spells, this deck is fine against aggro. Fallout is generally enough vs the token decks and decks that play larger creatures generally have trouble with wall/dragon/plumeveil and against counters in general.
No coincidence was involved here - we have a great player playing a great deck designed by a great team of deckbuilders. The list looks odd for certain since it's quite unconventional but it is most definitely very good and well-tuned.
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Firstly, I have no idea at all where to post this thread, so I'm sorry in advance, mods. Move it to where it needs to be, please. I was perusing the decklists of Pro-Tour Kyoto's standard portion and I saw some things in Gabriel Nassif's winning list that challenged my understanding. Please help shed some light on this list.
I don't understand, first of all, how a bunch of random 1-ofs are going to help you with no Gifts or Tutor effects. How does 1 random Wispmare help solve anything in STD?
What about 1 random Remove Soul?
What does Wydwen, the Biting Gale do for the deck?
Is Wall of Reverence really a playable card in serious competition? I barely...nearly don't...believe in Plumeveil as-it-is.
Is Volcanic Fallout really enough board sweep to solve most STD aggro matchups, or is this just a coincidence that this list worked?
I know Gabriel Nassif is a more-than-competent player, but this list just doesn't make sense for all the reasons listed above. Any light you guys can help shed on this will be much appreciated. Thanks, phyremynd.
the wall is great at leaving lark (esperlark/rw lark) just sit there not leaving play or killing you. Also netting 4 life each turn with the other wall is house. Its what walls do best. stall until you win.
Fallout is what made the deck popular again.
Against fae its toughest matchups, it blows them out of the water. Wydwen is against the mirror or against fae, playing spells on their turn to resolve a dragon is usually game. Plus its a pesk. declare blocks damage on, pay 1 life return to hand flash it in again.
Last but not least, 8 draw spells that draw you 2 can find those random 1 of's that can come handy. Almost every 1 of in his deck is helpful against ANY deck in t2. pithing needle their walker,windbrisk,siege gang, etc. purge their walker,bitterblossom, etc. SB more negate/remove soul as needed.
Gab nassif is a pro miser. he topdecks singleton cruels, remove souls, pithing needles, and wispmares like a champ. thats why he plays 1 ofs that no one else can haha
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck *********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like to to occur and validate you.
lol, a deck that runs 6 walls won the biggest tourny in the world. is it me or is that ridiculous?
It's sort of a first PT wise, but walls in a control makes sense especially if you look at the break down of decks played. In alot of the match ups the walls are there to stall, so you can draw and draw some more while you establish your board and resolve your finishers.
I don't understand, first of all, how a bunch of random 1-ofs are going to help you with no Gifts or Tutor effects. How does 1 random Wispmare help solve anything in STD?
Redundant effects and draw? He's got four esper charm, four drifter, brokens to scry with, and the cruels. The wispmare and celestial purge on the side give you 7 answers to resolved bitterblossom and 5 answers to resolved glorious anthems.
What about 1 random Remove Soul?
What deck won't have creatures to counter? Other than like, swans I mean. Its just another counterspell
What does Wydwen, the Biting Gale do for the deck?
Nassif talked about it in a deck tech, and chapin mentioned it in his article. she ruins control decks, and either taps faeries out end of turn to counter her, or is unkillable because she dodges the again popular terror.
Is Wall of Reverence really a playable card in serious competition? I barely...nearly don't...believe in Plumeveil as-it-is.
No, he obviously won a pro tour with godawful cards.
Wall is really good, and if you tested with it you'd understand that. And like plumeveil it won't kill you if sowered.
Is Volcanic Fallout really enough board sweep to solve most STD aggro matchups, or is this just a coincidence that this list worked?
It kills eveything in tokens and faeries but mistbind and cloudgoat. kills figures in resp to pump, knight of meadograin, ko2, siege gang and tokens, and mutavaults. and is uncounterable. They also have flying 1/6s to block things which dodge it, and wrath's in the side.
I know Gabriel Nassif is a more-than-competent player, but this list just doesn't make sense for all the reasons listed above. Any light you guys can help shed on this will be much appreciated. Thanks, phyremynd.
Wafo-tapa, Chapin, Bucher, nassif, and several others all developed and tested this build together. Its not a fluke, and you honestly just don't get it.
Besides the mirror, what does he side scepter of the fugue in against. From the looks of it, he just said 2 of's or 1 of's on everything to make sure everything was well rounded, but the scepters breaker that pattern so it must be important in quite a few matchups.
On another note, it looks like he wasn't expecting a ton of elves.
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Besides the mirror, what does he side scepter of the fugue in against. From the looks of it, he just said 2 of's or 1 of's on everything to make sure everything was well rounded, but the scepters breaker that pattern so it must be important in quite a few matchups.
On another note, it looks like he wasn't expecting a ton of elves.
He mentioned in his deck tech from the PT coverage on MTG.com that is was a late addition to the deck and mentions Faeries as a match up he used it for.
Redundant effects and draw? He's got four esper charm, four drifter, brokens to scry with, and the cruels. The wispmare and celestial purge on the side give you 7 answers to resolved bitterblossom and 5 answers to resolved glorious anthems.
What deck won't have creatures to counter? Other than like, swans I mean. Its just another counterspell
Nassif talked about it in a deck tech, and chapin mentioned it in his article. she ruins control decks, and either taps faeries out end of turn to counter her, or is unkillable because she dodges the again popular terror.
No, he obviously won a pro tour with godawful cards.
Wall is really good, and if you tested with it you'd understand that. And like plumeveil it won't kill you if sowered.
It kills eveything in tokens and faeries but mistbind and cloudgoat. kills figures in resp to pump, knight of meadograin, ko2, siege gang and tokens, and mutavaults. and is uncounterable. They also have flying 1/6s to block things which dodge it, and wrath's in the side.
Wafo-tapa, Chapin, Bucher, nassif, and several others all developed and tested this build together. Its not a fluke, and you honestly just don't get it.
Thanks to all the responses, but seriously Elysium...no reason to be sarcastic. I'm just wondering. I've been playing a 5CC deck for quite a while running 4x Drifter, 4x Esper Charm, 2x Mannequin for Drifter, 2x Cruel and I still have games where I can't get a single copy of a four-of. It's not impossible to miss multiple copies. So I never have understood how some pro players, especially Japanese pros, it seems, run 1-ofs. It seems so lucky that you would draw it. I don't seem to win games based on luck that often, so I wouldn't dare run 1-ofs of cards that I would side-in.
Thanks to all the responses, but seriously Elysium...no reason to be sarcastic. I'm just wondering. I've been playing a 5CC deck for quite a while running 4x Drifter, 4x Esper Charm, 2x Mannequin for Drifter, 2x Cruel and I still have games where I can't get a single copy of a four-of. It's not impossible to miss multiple copies. So I never have understood how some pro players, especially Japanese pros, it seems, run 1-ofs. It seems so lucky that you would draw it. I don't seem to win games based on luck that often, so I wouldn't dare run 1-ofs of cards that I would side-in.
Its the redundancy. Like the alaskan highlander deck. There are similar cards, or at least cards that can be used for similar effect in given mus. Look at the scepters as the 5-6 esper charms for discard. drawing s scepter would also free up your charms for drawing rather than that.
Remove Soul and Wispmare in the SB don't solve anything by themselves. They aren't covering up some horrible weakness in the deck to bolster unfavorable matchups. What they do is allow you to fine-tune the deck ratios to better handle certain matchups - increasing the probability that you will draw something that answers their deck.
E.G. you're facing fae. You already have 4 esper charm main, which do all sorts of versatile things, including killing bitterblossom. But game 2 vs Fae you want to ensure an early answer, so you side in Whispmare to improve your odds- now you have 5 responses to BB. Wheras including say, 3 whispmares, so you go up to 7 answers to one 4-of, would be excessive and lead to dead draws.
Remove Soul and Wispmare in the SB don't solve anything by themselves. They aren't covering up some horrible weakness in the deck to bolster certain matchups. What they do is allow you to fine-tune the deck ratios to better handle certain matchups - increasing the probability that you will draw something that answers their deck.
E.G. you're facing fae. You already have 4 esper charm main, which do all sorts of versatile things, including killing bitterblossom. But game 2 vs Fae you want to ensure an early answer, so you side in Whispmare to improve your odds- now you have 5 responses to BB. Wheras including say, 3 whispmares, so you go up to 7 answers to one 4-of, would probably be excessive.
Same thing with the scepters absically. Esper charm is a great one to use ebcause ti pulls triple duty. Against fae you want to be able to force discard, blow up their blossom, and draw. Siding in wispmares and scepters decreases the reliance on charm alone for all of those things.
People have said all the main points. One thing i would emphasize about the walls is forcing aggro decks to over commit.
THats crucial for control decks, to force aggro decks to overcommit. Otherwise aggro decks play it slow and decks especially like RW lark can grind it down to a slow game, forcing the board sweepers out 1 by 1. But, introduce Plumevail and Wall of Reverence. RW Lark (though it's relevent in other MUs, using RW lark as an example) no longer can let it's lone Kitchen Finks, Redcap, or other creature beat down. It needs to drop at least 2 creatures to deal damage (not counting plumevail munching on their creatures). Then the sweepers suddenly become much more powerful, instead of RW lark being able to force the sweepers into 1 for 1s or sometimes less (Finks), they turn into 1 for 2+'s. And the icing on the cake is the advantage of Fallout to Wrath with said walls. Normally, commiting a creature to force the other player to overcommit didn't really work, you play a creature, they play 2, you wrath. 2 for 2. But with Fallout, you have a sweeper that kills them but not the walls.
I think the walls are one of the crucial reasons the deck performed so well (ignoring mad topdeck skills). It really hurts RW lark, and other white based aggro decks, to commit into the sweepers, really hurting their slow grind the control player down game.
04 Mulldrifter
03 Plumeveil
03 Wall of Reverence
03 Broodmate Dragon
Spells
04 Broken Ambitions
04 Esper Charm
04 Volcanic Fallout
04 Cryptic Command
02 Cruel Ultimatum
01 Pithing Needle
01 Terror
01 Celestial Purge
04 Sunken Ruins
04 Reflecting Pool
04 Vivid Creek
03 Vivid Marsh
03 Island
02 Exotic Orchard
02 Cascade Bluff
02 Vivid Crag
02 Vivid Meadow
01 Mystic Gate
04 Scepter of Fugue
02 Infest
02 Negate
02 Wydwen, the Biting Gale
02 Wrath of God
01 Wispmare
01 Remove Soul
01 Celestial Purge
I don't understand, first of all, how a bunch of random 1-ofs are going to help you with no Gifts or Tutor effects. How does 1 random Wispmare help solve anything in STD?
What about 1 random Remove Soul?
What does Wydwen, the Biting Gale do for the deck?
Is Wall of Reverence really a playable card in serious competition? I barely...nearly don't...believe in Plumeveil as-it-is.
Is Volcanic Fallout really enough board sweep to solve most STD aggro matchups, or is this just a coincidence that this list worked?
I know Gabriel Nassif is a more-than-competent player, but this list just doesn't make sense for all the reasons listed above. Any light you guys can help shed on this will be much appreciated. Thanks, phyremynd.
1) He doesn't have any tutor effects but he has plenty of card draw + clash from Broken ambitions. Needle is something you really only want to see once per game, and you have enough card draw that you're able to see it enough without having Needle be a dead draw. The reason it's only 1-of is because it's dead in some matchups but stellar in others. Similar reasoning for Purge. Purge also fulfills the same role as terror usually, however it's able to hit Ajani Vengeant and not things like War Monk.
2) Same reasoning for Remove Soul. The deck wants another one in the side me thinks, but there is no room for a second.
3) Wydwen is great against the mirror and Faeries. It's an early flash threat turn 4, and an easy to protect flash threat turns 6-8. Not to mention that, unlike Thresher, Wydwen is basically immune to Terror, Agony Warp, and Sower provided you leave the mana open. Plumeveil is amazing, it is basically good in every non-5cc matchup including Faeries since it kills clique/multiple blossoms, comes in on their turn, and is a TERRIBLE sower target.
4) Between Wall, Dragon, Plumeveil, Fallout, Cryptic, and the various spot removal spells, this deck is fine against aggro. Fallout is generally enough vs the token decks and decks that play larger creatures generally have trouble with wall/dragon/plumeveil and against counters in general.
No coincidence was involved here - we have a great player playing a great deck designed by a great team of deckbuilders. The list looks odd for certain since it's quite unconventional but it is most definitely very good and well-tuned.
"Death - an outmoded concept. We sleep, and we change."
Awesome sig and avatar by Mr. Stuff over at High~Light Studios!
the wall is great at leaving lark (esperlark/rw lark) just sit there not leaving play or killing you. Also netting 4 life each turn with the other wall is house. Its what walls do best. stall until you win.
Fallout is what made the deck popular again.
Against fae its toughest matchups, it blows them out of the water. Wydwen is against the mirror or against fae, playing spells on their turn to resolve a dragon is usually game. Plus its a pesk. declare blocks damage on, pay 1 life return to hand flash it in again.
Last but not least, 8 draw spells that draw you 2 can find those random 1 of's that can come handy. Almost every 1 of in his deck is helpful against ANY deck in t2. pithing needle their walker,windbrisk,siege gang, etc. purge their walker,bitterblossom, etc. SB more negate/remove soul as needed.
Test the deck its great, and the wall is nuts.
hope i could help
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Faeries yar.
It's sort of a first PT wise, but walls in a control makes sense especially if you look at the break down of decks played. In alot of the match ups the walls are there to stall, so you can draw and draw some more while you establish your board and resolve your finishers.
now the walls can fly, have more p/t, and some gain you life, why not?
Redundant effects and draw? He's got four esper charm, four drifter, brokens to scry with, and the cruels. The wispmare and celestial purge on the side give you 7 answers to resolved bitterblossom and 5 answers to resolved glorious anthems.
What deck won't have creatures to counter? Other than like, swans I mean. Its just another counterspell
Nassif talked about it in a deck tech, and chapin mentioned it in his article. she ruins control decks, and either taps faeries out end of turn to counter her, or is unkillable because she dodges the again popular terror.
No, he obviously won a pro tour with godawful cards.
Wall is really good, and if you tested with it you'd understand that. And like plumeveil it won't kill you if sowered.
It kills eveything in tokens and faeries but mistbind and cloudgoat. kills figures in resp to pump, knight of meadograin, ko2, siege gang and tokens, and mutavaults. and is uncounterable. They also have flying 1/6s to block things which dodge it, and wrath's in the side.
Wafo-tapa, Chapin, Bucher, nassif, and several others all developed and tested this build together. Its not a fluke, and you honestly just don't get it.
On another note, it looks like he wasn't expecting a ton of elves.
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptkyo09/decktech7
He mentioned in his deck tech from the PT coverage on MTG.com that is was a late addition to the deck and mentions Faeries as a match up he used it for.
Thanks to all the responses, but seriously Elysium...no reason to be sarcastic. I'm just wondering. I've been playing a 5CC deck for quite a while running 4x Drifter, 4x Esper Charm, 2x Mannequin for Drifter, 2x Cruel and I still have games where I can't get a single copy of a four-of. It's not impossible to miss multiple copies. So I never have understood how some pro players, especially Japanese pros, it seems, run 1-ofs. It seems so lucky that you would draw it. I don't seem to win games based on luck that often, so I wouldn't dare run 1-ofs of cards that I would side-in.
Its the redundancy. Like the alaskan highlander deck. There are similar cards, or at least cards that can be used for similar effect in given mus. Look at the scepters as the 5-6 esper charms for discard. drawing s scepter would also free up your charms for drawing rather than that.
E.G. you're facing fae. You already have 4 esper charm main, which do all sorts of versatile things, including killing bitterblossom. But game 2 vs Fae you want to ensure an early answer, so you side in Whispmare to improve your odds- now you have 5 responses to BB. Wheras including say, 3 whispmares, so you go up to 7 answers to one 4-of, would be excessive and lead to dead draws.
Same thing with the scepters absically. Esper charm is a great one to use ebcause ti pulls triple duty. Against fae you want to be able to force discard, blow up their blossom, and draw. Siding in wispmares and scepters decreases the reliance on charm alone for all of those things.
Actually two people have said that already. Including myself.
THats crucial for control decks, to force aggro decks to overcommit. Otherwise aggro decks play it slow and decks especially like RW lark can grind it down to a slow game, forcing the board sweepers out 1 by 1. But, introduce Plumevail and Wall of Reverence. RW Lark (though it's relevent in other MUs, using RW lark as an example) no longer can let it's lone Kitchen Finks, Redcap, or other creature beat down. It needs to drop at least 2 creatures to deal damage (not counting plumevail munching on their creatures). Then the sweepers suddenly become much more powerful, instead of RW lark being able to force the sweepers into 1 for 1s or sometimes less (Finks), they turn into 1 for 2+'s. And the icing on the cake is the advantage of Fallout to Wrath with said walls. Normally, commiting a creature to force the other player to overcommit didn't really work, you play a creature, they play 2, you wrath. 2 for 2. But with Fallout, you have a sweeper that kills them but not the walls.
I think the walls are one of the crucial reasons the deck performed so well (ignoring mad topdeck skills). It really hurts RW lark, and other white based aggro decks, to commit into the sweepers, really hurting their slow grind the control player down game.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of High~Light Studios!
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.