Unrelated Note: Back a page or so ago, someone stated that they didnt think that UB was tempo and the UG was tempo. UG I'm sure is tempo, not planning to argue that. UB is definitely tempo as well. From what I've seen/heard the UG game plays out differently than the UB game, but I can assure you that the UB deck is all about maintaining/gaining tempo. Look at the cards played in both decks and that should be obvious. Anyways, I'm not going to go into further detail on it unless its absolutely necessary, but UB is also tempo-oriented.
But you still can't deny that UG hits tempo much harder. UG lives or dies by tempo, which is both an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the situation; UB simply uses tempo to leverage for position.
So do you think that 5 forests is enough to utilize the ranger effectively Shinjutsei? I play 7 now that I was having problems not having them when I played 6.
The only thing I could cut from my list would be Pendelhaven, but I like that utility too much. Even so, I still end up seeing a Snow-covered Forest in nearly 85% or more of my games. If you value that ability more, keep with seven. It's mostly up to preference.
And then I got to thinking, we're already running 5-7 Islands in most builds. Why not run 4 Secluded Glen and 2 River of Tears or Underground River and splash black for some more options in the maindeck/SB? It's not going to hurt the manabase, since the U capability is still there, and it gives us access to some nice removal like Terror/Eyeblight's Ending/etc or Bitterblossom, Wydwen, Violet Pall, etc. Any thoughts about this?
Hi,
I've been piloting this deck for a while now and I got a couple of observations: firstly a few people have been qestioning the usefulness of psi blast in the deck. I think that it absolutely has a place as it is excellent tempo blasting the odd flying defender of straight to the dome and throwing off the opponents combat math.
The second point is a lot more controversial but I'm going to throw is out there and probably get flamed a bit but thta is okay its just something I noticed. That in a deck such as this a lot of tiny bodies are left behind for every spell. Spellstutter sprite and mystic snakes are counters with bodies attached which is great for tempo but often a slow clock overall. This leads me to beleive that in this deck the original Overrun is superor to Garruk. I'm certainly not saying that its is a superior card almost anywhere else but it seems to be here. They certainly both have good points which I will try to list here.
Garruk
Pros
1.Untaps lands leaving counter mana up the turn he comes down
2. His Overrun ability=GG with the amount of tiny evasive bodys we have
3. He is a good topdeck due to the elephants he can make
Cons
1. He lacks the surprise with the final ability
2. He has a small amount of loyalty and is actaully very hard to protect in this deck outside wall of roots especailly since all our guys are x/1 flyers
3. If you chump to protect him it lessens the effect of his final ability
I'm certainly not saying that his other two abilites are useless, far from it but the one I really really want is the overrun ability. It seals the game almost every time. However, wihtout wall of wood there is not a lot of good ways to protect him without losing little guys even if they only attack him with a handful of 2/2's. This lessens the effect of the overrun ability. I've found the with birds or scryb ranger that the real Overrun is very easy to cast, is surprising and effective, turning a single turn into the win especailly by tapping birds then untapping them with rangers and going all in. I'm also sure I missed a number of points for Garruk so feel free to add some but I dont think that planeswalkers fit in a deck that would have to sacrifice vital dudes to protect him.
IAnd then I got to thinking, we're already running 5-7 Islands in most builds. Why not run 4 Secluded Glen and 2 River of Tears or Underground River and splash black for some more options in the maindeck/SB? It's not going to hurt the manabase, since the U capability is still there, and it gives us access to some nice removal like Terror/Eyeblight's Ending/etc or Bitterblossom, Wydwen, Violet Pall, etc. Any thoughts about this?
I honestly don't think it's worth it. In the end, you'll wind up just sacrificing consistency for a little extra removal and utility that wasn't needed in the first place. It would horribly upset this deck's tempo.
That said, I still find the idea interesting. I'm compelled to test it, actually. We'd even have Birds of Paradise to help fix the manabase...
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I honestly don't think it's worth it. In the end, you'll wind up just sacrificing consistency for a little extra removal and utility that wasn't needed in the first place. It would horribly upset this deck's tempo.
That said, I still find the idea interesting. I'm compelled to test it, actually. We'd even have Birds of Paradise to help fix the manabase...
I really don't think it will hurt much....take my above deck from a couple posts above:
Those 10 black sources would allow me to run something like Violet Pall, Terror, Shriekmaw, etc as extra removal either maindeck or SB. It also gives me access to Wydwen, the Biting Gale out of the SB, who I've seen be quite useful in the RG matchup due to her 3/3 status or even the new Bitterblossom. I of course need to mess around with it, but I think it might be worthwhile, and I don't think it'll hurt tempo.
Ironically enough (in regards to the rest of your post), Psionic Blast.
I guess I will have to move Psionic Blast to the sideboard. It feels like there should be a better solution to an annoying elf deck. Is anyone else as excited about Negate as I am?
@PrideoftheClouds: I don't think River of Tears should be the black mana providing card you use since you can't play lands during your opponents turn. That means it will not be a source of black mana during your opponents turn when you want the option to play black spells.
OK, now the gloves come off. Magic is a game of entertainment. I purchase the game as a consumer with all the rights and abilities therein. If I do not like it, I am not required to try the new alternative (i.e. M10 rules changes). So stating, implying, or otherwise referencing to my opinion as less than whole is not wise.
It is an uneducated opinion, and you were quitting anyway, so WoTC, and none of us, care.
This is the kind of treatment you can look forward to here.
I guess I will have to move Psionic Blast to the sideboard. It feels like there should be a better solution to an annoying elf deck. Is anyone else as excited about Negate as I am?
With the current creature-overrun environment? No, I'm not. Remove Soul is far more useful at the current time.
Well, I just got the last key pieces for this deck at the prerelease, so I will throw it together and play a few games with it at FNM(since this week is draft). I tested it quite a bit over the past weekend against mainly Mannequin, MonoB Korlash, and RG Mana Ramp. Here is the list I used:
First of all, we completely destroy Mannequin. I know that I am missing the Garruks for the deck, but unless I burrow them from a friend, I just cant afford them right now. But the Warhammers make for a fine replacement. Anyways, the key to this matchup, for me at least, is obviously to play smart because they have Damnation. Dont overextend too early, but play a Mistbind on turn 3-4 if you have it to give them some incentive to Damn the board, and then just beat face with Manlands and Warhammer/Garruk. I really really like Spellstutter in this match because being able to do the T1 BoP, T2 Scryb/Sprite on their Mind Stone is really key, then counter their Finkel on T3, and they almost cant win. I think its something like 80-20 pre board and 75-25 post(just because they board in more Damnations and kill spells).
Now onto mana ramp. I dont really know what to say besides the fact that if you dont have early counters into a key t4 or t5 at the latest Clique, it can really be a hard matchup. But as long as you deny them the Fertile Ground or Wall of Roots on turn 2, you should be good. Now the list I played against has 2 Cloudthreshers MD, but the normal usually only has one, so dont worry about that. Also, if you let Garruk resolve, swing all of your guys at it until it dies, that is very key. The longer it stays out there, the longer they have to drop a Hellkite and ruin your board. Then from the SB comes Pithing Needle, which helps alot. I would say is about 65-35 pre and 60-40 post.
Finally, the MonoB match. I have one word to describe it: horrible. The list I played against has full sets of Thoughtseizes and Distresses MD(just because its our teams' list) which is a huge pain. Then we play 4 Hippies obviously, but so many removal spells it is really hard the win with the small guys. In the games that I won, I did so on the back of Psi Blasts and Manlands. Then in the SB Sower becomes a kill spell with a 2/2 body, and Jace grants you the card advantage you desperately need. Having said all that, and that I didnt test too many games(maybe about 15 or so), this match is probably 50-50 pre, and 40-60 post. It is an absolutely horrible match, maybe our second worst. Just hope that noone plays this in your area, or if they do SB accordingly(with at least 3 Spectral Forces SB).
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just a question, why on earth am i not seeing ponder in people's list? the only reason you run 4 ponder is that you can't run 5...
also i prefer running familiar's ruse to rune snag because of it's synergy with the pestermite, mistbind clique and spellstutter sprite, any thoughts?
The only reason you run Ponder is to create a greater threat density with fewer actual threats. Absolutely unnecesary when the threat density is already this high; you're essentially investing mana, on your own turn no less, for something that you really don't need. The slight advantage in card quantity isn't worth the cost when the deck is driving so hard for a tempo advantage.
Familiar's Ruse absolutely kills your tempo. It's not run for a very good reason; you backtrack on your curve and screw up your mana investments for a basic counterspell. Not worth it. Just run Faerie Trickery or Cancel if you want the extra counter that badly; neither hurts your tempo nearly as much as the Ruse does.
just a question, why on earth am i not seeing ponder in people's list? the only reason you run 4 ponder is that you can't run 5...
also i prefer running familiar's ruse to rune snag because of it's synergy with the pestermite, mistbind clique and spellstutter sprite, any thoughts?
1. Ponder is completely unnecessary, and to be frank, there's no room for it. UG is a VERY tight list.
2. Familiar's Ruse < Rune Snag. Ruse is unable to be used on turn 2 in this deck. At the BEST, it's a turn 3 counter and kills tempo, which is the LAST thing this deck wants.
just a question, why on earth am i not seeing ponder in people's list? the only reason you run 4 ponder is that you can't run 5...
also i prefer running familiar's ruse to rune snag because of it's synergy with the pestermite, mistbind clique and spellstutter sprite, any thoughts?
Well having a WORKING counterspell on turn 2 is very important in a lot of games. I mean a turn two counterspell counters Goyf, possbliy Doran, while Ruse, well . . . . Ruse counters nothing, until turn 4 or turn 3. Remember decks are not built on synergy alone, youneed to think if a spell is practical or not, Ruse is not practical due to the fact that you have to have a creature in play and only starts working turn 3 and later as a solid counter, however it may not even always work due to you lacking creatures or what not, now Rune Snag just works all the time starting turn 2 and will almost always counter everything that your oppoenent plays so it almost works as a hard counter but without a situational drawback. Also you can't forget that Snag is 1U and Ruse is UU --> mana problems? This is why Snag is played and Ruse is'nt.
It also gives me access to Wydwen, the Biting Gale out of the SB, who I've seen be quite useful in the RG matchup due to her 3/3 status or even the new Bitterblossom.
When you said "black splash" all I could think was "OMG Bitterblossom". Sideboard? Hell no. If you're going out of your way to play black, you'd best play 2-3 Bitterblossom MD and 4 Oona's Prowler. The removal can either be in the SB or MD in place of Psionic Blast.
I still don't think this is a great idea, but it might be fun to try it out.
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When you said "black splash" all I could think was "OMG Bitterblossom". Sideboard? Hell no. If you're going out of your way to play black, you'd best play 2-3 Bitterblossom MD and 4 Oona's Prowler. The removal can either be in the SB or MD in place of Psionic Blast.
I still don't think this is a great idea, but it might be fun to try it out.
Yeah, Inversion is my first choice as well. I don't think Prowler is worth it here, as without Flash, I'd much rather run Spellstutter and Scryb @2cc.
at first i was testing U/B faeries but it was too slow for my taking and after reading about splashing black it made me think what if i did i dont think Oona's Prowler has a place here without flash and all but i might consider it after some play testing im not too sure about Vendilion clique either i know it will make the cut but im not sure on how many the only thing i feel may be unstable is the mana base but i have to have Muta Vault that card is SOO good the one thing that the deck lacks now is the spot removal so im not sure maybe get rid of mystic snake but probably not as for the sideboard nothing is set in stone i left some spots open maybe for spot removal i dont know i guess the only thing now it to do some playtesting and see what emerges from the post morngingtide decks
But you still can't deny that UG hits tempo much harder. UG lives or dies by tempo, which is both an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the situation; UB simply uses tempo to leverage for position.
No I am denying that because your statement doesnt merit anything. If I don't need tempo for leverage (not even sure what that is referring to honestly), I need it to win the game. If I lose tempo, I lose. If I maintain tempo, I win. UG doesnt "hit tempo harder", its just a different deck and the methods of maintaining tempo are different but I dont think that one really is more tempo than the other.
However, before you respond to me, I'm dropping this issue too. You didnt in your statement tell me anything about WHY you'd have more tempo in UG than UB, nor has anyone. Its roughly the same, but they play out differently. I can tell you though UB does absolutely need tempo, so just take my word for it. Thanks.
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EDH Decks:
UWMerfolk (Sygg, River Guide) B Vampires (Anowon the Ruin Sage) BRU Zombies! (Lord of Tresserhorn) WUBRG Allies (Karona, False God) W Soldiers (Darien, King of Kjeldor)
No I am denying that because your statement doesnt merit anything. If I don't need tempo for leverage (not even sure what that is referring to honestly), I need it to win the game. If I lose tempo, I lose. If I maintain tempo, I win. UG doesnt "hit tempo harder", its just a different deck and the methods of maintaining tempo are different but I dont think that one really is more tempo than the other.
However, before you respond to me, I'm dropping this issue too. You didnt in your statement tell me anything about WHY you'd have more tempo in UG than UB, nor has anyone. Its roughly the same, but they play out differently. I can tell you though UB does absolutely need tempo, so just take my word for it. Thanks.
You have the room and time frame to run Oona's Prowler; that means that at least some of your plays are made with power and speed in mind. While both are elements of tempo, strictly speaking, to directly gain either time is ceded. UG is built around solely making every single one of its plays ceding as little time as humanly possible; preferably none. Thus, card choices such as Scryb Ranger > Tarmogoyf; UG lives or dies by its tempo alone. UB uses, usually, tempo to create windows to make the plays it needs to win the game. Certainly, you need tempo to win the game, but you don't with the game directly with tempo. It's a subtle difference; it's hard to tell if you haven't tested both decks. Which, notably, I would recommend doing before making any such statements; maybe after that, you'll actually understand my statements well enough for them to merit something.
You have the room and time frame to run Oona's Prowler; that means that at least some of your plays are made with power and speed in mind. While both are elements of tempo, strictly speaking, to directly gain either time is ceded. UG is built around solely making every single one of its plays ceding as little time as humanly possible; preferably none. Thus, card choices such as Scryb Ranger > Tarmogoyf; UG lives or dies by its tempo alone. UB uses, usually, tempo to create windows to make the plays it needs to win the game. Certainly, you need tempo to win the game, but you don't with the game directly with tempo. It's a subtle difference; it's hard to tell if you haven't tested both decks. Which, notably, I would recommend doing before making any such statements; maybe after that, you'll actually understand my statements well enough for them to merit something.
Please explain to me, since I clearly don't know what your talking about because I haven't tested a deck, what the difference between living or dying by tempo and creating windows of tempo is? Your talking in such arbitrary terms that you don't make sense. I'm not making any statement about UG, I'm TELLING you how UB plays. I've been playing the deck for 3-4 months now, the UB deck wins and loses based on tempo. I don't know what you keep thinking is the difference. They're both tempo decks. You use cards like Scryb Ranger and I use Oona's Prowler (which is not always more damage, I sometimes get advantage by the opponent choosing to discard as well). Just because your playing one more flash creature than I am does not mean you have more or less tempo either.
Look at the old WB Thief of Hope decks, those were all about Tempo too and played almost everything at sorcery speed. Merfolk is another great example of tempo, played at sorcery speed mostly too. Honestly, I think your just trying to argue that UG has more tempo because you like the deck better, but you aren't making any sense. Tempo is tempo, created in different ways? sure! Both have tempo as a necessity to win.
I really hope I'm not the only one who seems to be confused by what the difference between tempo and "windows of tempo" are.
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EDH Decks:
UWMerfolk (Sygg, River Guide) B Vampires (Anowon the Ruin Sage) BRU Zombies! (Lord of Tresserhorn) WUBRG Allies (Karona, False God) W Soldiers (Darien, King of Kjeldor)
You have the room and time frame to run Oona's Prowler; that means that at least some of your plays are made with power and speed in mind. While both are elements of tempo, strictly speaking, to directly gain either time is ceded. UG is built around solely making every single one of its plays ceding as little time as humanly possible; preferably none. Thus, card choices such as Scryb Ranger > Tarmogoyf; UG lives or dies by its tempo alone. UB uses, usually, tempo to create windows to make the plays it needs to win the game. Certainly, you need tempo to win the game, but you don't with the game directly with tempo. It's a subtle difference; it's hard to tell if you haven't tested both decks. Which, notably, I would recommend doing before making any such statements; maybe after that, you'll actually understand my statements well enough for them to merit something.
You're really overstating the difference between the decks. The difference in tempo between UG Faeries and, say, Doran is noticeable. The difference between UG and UB builds is extremely small, and I can't believe this is becoming a point of contention in this thread.
Please explain to me, since I clearly don't know what your talking about because I haven't tested a deck, what the difference between living or dying by tempo and creating windows of tempo is? Your talking in such arbitrary terms that you don't make sense. I'm not making any statement about UG, I'm TELLING you how UB plays. I've been playing the deck for 3-4 months now, the UB deck wins and loses based on tempo. I don't know what you keep thinking is the difference. They're both tempo decks. You use cards like Scryb Ranger and I use Oona's Prowler (which is not always more damage, I sometimes get advantage by the opponent choosing to discard as well). Just because your playing one more flash creature than I am does not mean you have more or less tempo either.
Look at the old WB Thief of Hope decks, those were all about Tempo too and played almost everything at sorcery speed. Merfolk is another great example of tempo, played at sorcery speed mostly too. Honestly, I think your just trying to argue that UG has more tempo because you like the deck better, but you aren't making any sense. Tempo is tempo, created in different ways? sure! Both have tempo as a necessity to win.
I really hope I'm not the only one who seems to be confused by what the difference between tempo and "windows of tempo" are.
Windows of tempo = time used to play large or "slow" spells without the usual commitment through previous support; time of course gained by playing tempo based spells, although time not usually kept throughout the game
Winning through tempo = keeping a lead in tempo throughout the whole game, never ceding that advantage and winning the game based upon it; ie. never playing a spell that's in any way detrimental to your tempo
Tempo is indeed gained in many ways. How you use it is the difference. Does that help? The UW Thief of Hope decks are a great example; gain tempo by way of secondary lifegain as well as slow card advantage, and hold that tempo throughout the whole game until you reach critical mass, and, say, win. And, although probably not the best of examples, UG Scryb and Force is a tempo deck which gains tempo which is treats as an opening, and uses to drop huge threats backed with inherent protection from many of your tempo cards. Scryb and Force probably isn't a great example, as Spectral Force can be backbreaking tempo on its own with its sidekick, but without help, that's the idea, and those two are serviceable as to represent the two general concepts. Of course UB is a tempo deck; it's just not nearly so much of one, in the traditional sense, as UG is.
I'd also like to note that Merfolk, as far as T2 goes, is almost strictly aggro.
You're really overstating the difference between the decks. The difference in tempo between UG Faeries and, say, Doran is noticeable. The difference between UG and UB builds is extremely small, and I can't believe this is becoming a point of contention in this thread.
It's not huge, but it's significant enough to be noted. But yes, this does seem like it's a waste of time.
at first i was testing U/B faeries but it was too slow for my taking and after reading about splashing black it made me think what if i did i dont think Oona's Prowler has a place here without flash and all but i might consider it after some play testing im not too sure about Vendilion clique either i know it will make the cut but im not sure on how many the only thing i feel may be unstable is the mana base but i have to have Muta Vault that card is SOO good the one thing that the deck lacks now is the spot removal so im not sure maybe get rid of mystic snake but probably not as for the sideboard nothing is set in stone i left some spots open maybe for spot removal i dont know i guess the only thing now it to do some playtesting and see what emerges from the post morngingtide decks
I don't see the point of playing scryb ranger if you're not gonna play any basic forest ...
My sideboard is in flux right now. I like the new legend faerie and play it as a one of. The ability seems a little weak, but if it turns out I may cut something. As I pointed out previously, I haven't liked Psionic Blast very much in this build, when I gain tempo, I never have a problem finishing the job.
I top 4'ed one week and scrubbed to Wren's Run Vanquisher the following week. Thats only two weeks worth of results so I need more playtesting with it.
I also like Negate for its very open ended versatility and cheap cost. Most decks play creatures so Remove Soul is a good option. I play one main deck pre-Morningtide. All decks play non-creature spells and many have a pretty high count of them.
@Tree Hugger: The point of Scryb Ranger is that it is a two drop faerie. The other ability is just gravy that makes the Makeshift Mannequin match-up better.
OK, now the gloves come off. Magic is a game of entertainment. I purchase the game as a consumer with all the rights and abilities therein. If I do not like it, I am not required to try the new alternative (i.e. M10 rules changes). So stating, implying, or otherwise referencing to my opinion as less than whole is not wise.
It is an uneducated opinion, and you were quitting anyway, so WoTC, and none of us, care.
This is the kind of treatment you can look forward to here.
@Tree Hugger: The point of Scryb Ranger is that it is a two drop faerie. The other ability is just gravy that makes the Makeshift Mannequin match-up better.
I think you mistaken my point here on Scryb Ranger.
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But you still can't deny that UG hits tempo much harder. UG lives or dies by tempo, which is both an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the situation; UB simply uses tempo to leverage for position.
The only thing I could cut from my list would be Pendelhaven, but I like that utility too much. Even so, I still end up seeing a Snow-covered Forest in nearly 85% or more of my games. If you value that ability more, keep with seven. It's mostly up to preference.
Ironically enough (in regards to the rest of your post), Psionic Blast.
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2 wall of roots
4 spellstutter sprite
4 scryb ranger
2 vendilion clique
3 pestermite
4 scion of oona
3 mystic snake
3 mistbind clique
3 psionic blast
2 garruk wildspeaker
4 yavimaya coast
1 pendelhaven
3 faerie conclave
2 treetop village
6 forest
6 island
3 pithing needle
3 lignify
4 flash freeze
2 loxodon warhammer
3 sower of temptation
And then I got to thinking, we're already running 5-7 Islands in most builds. Why not run 4 Secluded Glen and 2 River of Tears or Underground River and splash black for some more options in the maindeck/SB? It's not going to hurt the manabase, since the U capability is still there, and it gives us access to some nice removal like Terror/Eyeblight's Ending/etc or Bitterblossom, Wydwen, Violet Pall, etc. Any thoughts about this?
I've been piloting this deck for a while now and I got a couple of observations: firstly a few people have been qestioning the usefulness of psi blast in the deck. I think that it absolutely has a place as it is excellent tempo blasting the odd flying defender of straight to the dome and throwing off the opponents combat math.
The second point is a lot more controversial but I'm going to throw is out there and probably get flamed a bit but thta is okay its just something I noticed. That in a deck such as this a lot of tiny bodies are left behind for every spell. Spellstutter sprite and mystic snakes are counters with bodies attached which is great for tempo but often a slow clock overall. This leads me to beleive that in this deck the original Overrun is superor to Garruk. I'm certainly not saying that its is a superior card almost anywhere else but it seems to be here. They certainly both have good points which I will try to list here.
Garruk
Pros
1.Untaps lands leaving counter mana up the turn he comes down
2. His Overrun ability=GG with the amount of tiny evasive bodys we have
3. He is a good topdeck due to the elephants he can make
Cons
1. He lacks the surprise with the final ability
2. He has a small amount of loyalty and is actaully very hard to protect in this deck outside wall of roots especailly since all our guys are x/1 flyers
3. If you chump to protect him it lessens the effect of his final ability
I'm certainly not saying that his other two abilites are useless, far from it but the one I really really want is the overrun ability. It seals the game almost every time. However, wihtout wall of wood there is not a lot of good ways to protect him without losing little guys even if they only attack him with a handful of 2/2's. This lessens the effect of the overrun ability. I've found the with birds or scryb ranger that the real Overrun is very easy to cast, is surprising and effective, turning a single turn into the win especailly by tapping birds then untapping them with rangers and going all in. I'm also sure I missed a number of points for Garruk so feel free to add some but I dont think that planeswalkers fit in a deck that would have to sacrifice vital dudes to protect him.
I honestly don't think it's worth it. In the end, you'll wind up just sacrificing consistency for a little extra removal and utility that wasn't needed in the first place. It would horribly upset this deck's tempo.
That said, I still find the idea interesting. I'm compelled to test it, actually. We'd even have Birds of Paradise to help fix the manabase...
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I really don't think it will hurt much....take my above deck from a couple posts above:
2 wall of roots
4 spellstutter sprite
4 scryb ranger
2 vendilion clique
3 pestermite
4 scion of oona
3 mystic snake
3 mistbind clique
3 psionic blast
2 garruk wildspeaker
4 yavimaya coast
1 pendelhaven
3 faerie conclave
2 treetop village
6 forest
6 island
3 pithing needle
3 lignify
4 flash freeze
2 loxodon warhammer
3 sower of temptation
Now do this:
-6 Island
+4 Secluded Glen
+2 River of Tears
With those 6 lands, I have:
19 G sources
17 U sources
10 B sources
Those 10 black sources would allow me to run something like Violet Pall, Terror, Shriekmaw, etc as extra removal either maindeck or SB. It also gives me access to Wydwen, the Biting Gale out of the SB, who I've seen be quite useful in the RG matchup due to her 3/3 status or even the new Bitterblossom. I of course need to mess around with it, but I think it might be worthwhile, and I don't think it'll hurt tempo.
I guess I will have to move Psionic Blast to the sideboard. It feels like there should be a better solution to an annoying elf deck. Is anyone else as excited about Negate as I am?
@PrideoftheClouds: I don't think River of Tears should be the black mana providing card you use since you can't play lands during your opponents turn. That means it will not be a source of black mana during your opponents turn when you want the option to play black spells.
This is the kind of treatment you can look forward to here.
With the current creature-overrun environment? No, I'm not. Remove Soul is far more useful at the current time.
2 [UL] Treetop Village
2 [TSB] Pendelhaven
4 [AP] Yavimaya Coast
3 [UL] Faerie Conclave
6 [ST] Forest (4)
6 [MR] Island (3)
4 [TSB] Mystic Snake
3 [LOR] Mistbind Clique
4 [LOR] Scion of Oona
4 [LOR] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [LOR] Pestermite
4 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
4 [U] Birds of Paradise
2 [MI] Wall of Roots
3 [U] Psionic Blast
2 [9E] Loxodon Warhammer
First of all, we completely destroy Mannequin. I know that I am missing the Garruks for the deck, but unless I burrow them from a friend, I just cant afford them right now. But the Warhammers make for a fine replacement. Anyways, the key to this matchup, for me at least, is obviously to play smart because they have Damnation. Dont overextend too early, but play a Mistbind on turn 3-4 if you have it to give them some incentive to Damn the board, and then just beat face with Manlands and Warhammer/Garruk. I really really like Spellstutter in this match because being able to do the T1 BoP, T2 Scryb/Sprite on their Mind Stone is really key, then counter their Finkel on T3, and they almost cant win. I think its something like 80-20 pre board and 75-25 post(just because they board in more Damnations and kill spells).
Now onto mana ramp. I dont really know what to say besides the fact that if you dont have early counters into a key t4 or t5 at the latest Clique, it can really be a hard matchup. But as long as you deny them the Fertile Ground or Wall of Roots on turn 2, you should be good. Now the list I played against has 2 Cloudthreshers MD, but the normal usually only has one, so dont worry about that. Also, if you let Garruk resolve, swing all of your guys at it until it dies, that is very key. The longer it stays out there, the longer they have to drop a Hellkite and ruin your board. Then from the SB comes Pithing Needle, which helps alot. I would say is about 65-35 pre and 60-40 post.
Finally, the MonoB match. I have one word to describe it: horrible. The list I played against has full sets of Thoughtseizes and Distresses MD(just because its our teams' list) which is a huge pain. Then we play 4 Hippies obviously, but so many removal spells it is really hard the win with the small guys. In the games that I won, I did so on the back of Psi Blasts and Manlands. Then in the SB Sower becomes a kill spell with a 2/2 body, and Jace grants you the card advantage you desperately need. Having said all that, and that I didnt test too many games(maybe about 15 or so), this match is probably 50-50 pre, and 40-60 post. It is an absolutely horrible match, maybe our second worst. Just hope that noone plays this in your area, or if they do SB accordingly(with at least 3 Spectral Forces SB).
also i prefer running familiar's ruse to rune snag because of it's synergy with the pestermite, mistbind clique and spellstutter sprite, any thoughts?
EDH: Momir Vig (Combo as Hell)
Teneb (Land Rape-age)
Dromar (Tapout Control)
The only reason you run Ponder is to create a greater threat density with fewer actual threats. Absolutely unnecesary when the threat density is already this high; you're essentially investing mana, on your own turn no less, for something that you really don't need. The slight advantage in card quantity isn't worth the cost when the deck is driving so hard for a tempo advantage.
Familiar's Ruse absolutely kills your tempo. It's not run for a very good reason; you backtrack on your curve and screw up your mana investments for a basic counterspell. Not worth it. Just run Faerie Trickery or Cancel if you want the extra counter that badly; neither hurts your tempo nearly as much as the Ruse does.
1. Ponder is completely unnecessary, and to be frank, there's no room for it. UG is a VERY tight list.
2. Familiar's Ruse < Rune Snag. Ruse is unable to be used on turn 2 in this deck. At the BEST, it's a turn 3 counter and kills tempo, which is the LAST thing this deck wants.
Well having a WORKING counterspell on turn 2 is very important in a lot of games. I mean a turn two counterspell counters Goyf, possbliy Doran, while Ruse, well . . . . Ruse counters nothing, until turn 4 or turn 3. Remember decks are not built on synergy alone, youneed to think if a spell is practical or not, Ruse is not practical due to the fact that you have to have a creature in play and only starts working turn 3 and later as a solid counter, however it may not even always work due to you lacking creatures or what not, now Rune Snag just works all the time starting turn 2 and will almost always counter everything that your oppoenent plays so it almost works as a hard counter but without a situational drawback. Also you can't forget that Snag is 1U and Ruse is UU --> mana problems? This is why Snag is played and Ruse is'nt.
Sig by me.
Not Violet Pall - it's great in Limited, but nowhere else. My vote would definitely be for Nameless Inversion.
When you said "black splash" all I could think was "OMG Bitterblossom". Sideboard? Hell no. If you're going out of your way to play black, you'd best play 2-3 Bitterblossom MD and 4 Oona's Prowler. The removal can either be in the SB or MD in place of Psionic Blast.
I still don't think this is a great idea, but it might be fun to try it out.
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Yeah, Inversion is my first choice as well. I don't think Prowler is worth it here, as without Flash, I'd much rather run Spellstutter and Scryb @2cc.
***Ninja Edit:
Here's a rough build idea:
4 scryb ranger
4 spellstutter sprite
2 vendilion clique
4 pestermite
4 scion of oona
3 mystic snake
2 mistbind clique
3 nameless inversion
2 bitterblossom
4 rune snag
2 garruk wildspeaker
3 faerie conclave
2 treetop village
4 secluded glen
2 pendelhaven
2 river of tears
5 forest
3 pithing needle
3 lignify
4 flash freeze
2 psionic blast
1 wydwen, the biting gale
2 sower of temptation
4 Scryb Ranger
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion clique
4 Pestermite
4 Scion of oona
3 Mistbind clique
3 Mystic snake
3 Bitterblossom
4 Rune snag
3 Garruk wildspeaker
4 Secluded glen
3 Faerie Conclave
2 Treetop village
2 Pendelhaven
3 Muta vault
1 Underground river
3 River of tears
3 pithing needle
3 lignify
3 flash freeze
3 sower of temptation
3 ????
at first i was testing U/B faeries but it was too slow for my taking and after reading about splashing black it made me think what if i did i dont think Oona's Prowler has a place here without flash and all but i might consider it after some play testing im not too sure about Vendilion clique either i know it will make the cut but im not sure on how many the only thing i feel may be unstable is the mana base but i have to have Muta Vault that card is SOO good the one thing that the deck lacks now is the spot removal so im not sure maybe get rid of mystic snake but probably not as for the sideboard nothing is set in stone i left some spots open maybe for spot removal i dont know i guess the only thing now it to do some playtesting and see what emerges from the post morngingtide decks
No I am denying that because your statement doesnt merit anything. If I don't need tempo for leverage (not even sure what that is referring to honestly), I need it to win the game. If I lose tempo, I lose. If I maintain tempo, I win. UG doesnt "hit tempo harder", its just a different deck and the methods of maintaining tempo are different but I dont think that one really is more tempo than the other.
However, before you respond to me, I'm dropping this issue too. You didnt in your statement tell me anything about WHY you'd have more tempo in UG than UB, nor has anyone. Its roughly the same, but they play out differently. I can tell you though UB does absolutely need tempo, so just take my word for it. Thanks.
UWMerfolk (Sygg, River Guide)
B Vampires (Anowon the Ruin Sage)
BRU Zombies! (Lord of Tresserhorn)
WUBRG Allies (Karona, False God)
W Soldiers (Darien, King of Kjeldor)
You have the room and time frame to run Oona's Prowler; that means that at least some of your plays are made with power and speed in mind. While both are elements of tempo, strictly speaking, to directly gain either time is ceded. UG is built around solely making every single one of its plays ceding as little time as humanly possible; preferably none. Thus, card choices such as Scryb Ranger > Tarmogoyf; UG lives or dies by its tempo alone. UB uses, usually, tempo to create windows to make the plays it needs to win the game. Certainly, you need tempo to win the game, but you don't with the game directly with tempo. It's a subtle difference; it's hard to tell if you haven't tested both decks. Which, notably, I would recommend doing before making any such statements; maybe after that, you'll actually understand my statements well enough for them to merit something.
Please explain to me, since I clearly don't know what your talking about because I haven't tested a deck, what the difference between living or dying by tempo and creating windows of tempo is? Your talking in such arbitrary terms that you don't make sense. I'm not making any statement about UG, I'm TELLING you how UB plays. I've been playing the deck for 3-4 months now, the UB deck wins and loses based on tempo. I don't know what you keep thinking is the difference. They're both tempo decks. You use cards like Scryb Ranger and I use Oona's Prowler (which is not always more damage, I sometimes get advantage by the opponent choosing to discard as well). Just because your playing one more flash creature than I am does not mean you have more or less tempo either.
Look at the old WB Thief of Hope decks, those were all about Tempo too and played almost everything at sorcery speed. Merfolk is another great example of tempo, played at sorcery speed mostly too. Honestly, I think your just trying to argue that UG has more tempo because you like the deck better, but you aren't making any sense. Tempo is tempo, created in different ways? sure! Both have tempo as a necessity to win.
I really hope I'm not the only one who seems to be confused by what the difference between tempo and "windows of tempo" are.
UWMerfolk (Sygg, River Guide)
B Vampires (Anowon the Ruin Sage)
BRU Zombies! (Lord of Tresserhorn)
WUBRG Allies (Karona, False God)
W Soldiers (Darien, King of Kjeldor)
You're really overstating the difference between the decks. The difference in tempo between UG Faeries and, say, Doran is noticeable. The difference between UG and UB builds is extremely small, and I can't believe this is becoming a point of contention in this thread.
Windows of tempo = time used to play large or "slow" spells without the usual commitment through previous support; time of course gained by playing tempo based spells, although time not usually kept throughout the game
Winning through tempo = keeping a lead in tempo throughout the whole game, never ceding that advantage and winning the game based upon it; ie. never playing a spell that's in any way detrimental to your tempo
Tempo is indeed gained in many ways. How you use it is the difference. Does that help? The UW Thief of Hope decks are a great example; gain tempo by way of secondary lifegain as well as slow card advantage, and hold that tempo throughout the whole game until you reach critical mass, and, say, win. And, although probably not the best of examples, UG Scryb and Force is a tempo deck which gains tempo which is treats as an opening, and uses to drop huge threats backed with inherent protection from many of your tempo cards. Scryb and Force probably isn't a great example, as Spectral Force can be backbreaking tempo on its own with its sidekick, but without help, that's the idea, and those two are serviceable as to represent the two general concepts. Of course UB is a tempo deck; it's just not nearly so much of one, in the traditional sense, as UG is.
I'd also like to note that Merfolk, as far as T2 goes, is almost strictly aggro.
It's not huge, but it's significant enough to be noted. But yes, this does seem like it's a waste of time.
I don't see the point of playing scryb ranger if you're not gonna play any basic forest ...
hmmm yeah good point ill have to look into this
3 Wall of Roots
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scryb Ranger
4 Pestermite
4 Scion of Oona
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Mystic Snake
3 Mistblind Clique
3 Negate
2 Faerie Conclave
8 Island
6 Forest
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Pendelhaven
My sideboard is in flux right now. I like the new legend faerie and play it as a one of. The ability seems a little weak, but if it turns out I may cut something. As I pointed out previously, I haven't liked Psionic Blast very much in this build, when I gain tempo, I never have a problem finishing the job.
I top 4'ed one week and scrubbed to Wren's Run Vanquisher the following week. Thats only two weeks worth of results so I need more playtesting with it.
I also like Negate for its very open ended versatility and cheap cost. Most decks play creatures so Remove Soul is a good option. I play one main deck pre-Morningtide. All decks play non-creature spells and many have a pretty high count of them.
@Tree Hugger: The point of Scryb Ranger is that it is a two drop faerie. The other ability is just gravy that makes the Makeshift Mannequin match-up better.
This is the kind of treatment you can look forward to here.
I think you mistaken my point here on Scryb Ranger.