Serum Visions isn't exactly good either. Mana Leak is decent, but it doesn't hold a candle to the tools legacy has available. None of the decks do, really. Modern D&T is so different that I wouldn't ever play it, even with D&T being my favorite deck.
Serums visions is better than you're giving it credit. You still get to be aware of 3 additional cards, 2 in your library and one in your hand. That's pretty powerful. Standard won't have something like that for 1 mana probably ever again.
Mana Leak is way better than just decent. It wins you early game just for 1U. Unless my opponent is strangely running Pyretic Rituals and Desperate Rituals, it's 1U for "counter target spell." I don't bank on my opponent missing land drops, which is why Tec Edge is a nice partner to Mana Leak.
Silver I and II has a lot of aspirant competitors and is on the upward slope. Gold III, IV, and V is full of players who drop out of Platinum, can't climb, and lose all hope. I know it's a sweeping generalization, but that outlook it very accurate.
Once I made it to Diamond, I stopped playing. I hang out online with friends and get a couple ranked matches every couple of weeks so I don't get demoted.
Never reached Platinum. So far, the games I've played in Silver V have been complete beatdowns in my lane, despite morons somehow throwing it. Nobody will take orders from a support, nobody will make a call to group. Either way, I'm going to have to grind out of it, but it was a very low placement for what I feel my skill level is at (and it is a lower placement than last season, a full year ago).
And for those that only play ranked to keep their place, I don't feel that really counts. There are many issues I have with their league system, and that is one of them.
I havent done my placements yet, but the ranked scene is a mess right now, I am giving it a month or so. My wife is undefeated in her placements so far, Im hoping she places in plat.
@Modern MTG
What are peoples thoughts on Merfolk? Looking to retool my merfolk deck (once legacy) for modern considering ive kinda abandoned legacy fish.
Serums visions is better than you're giving it credit. You still get to be aware of 3 additional cards, 2 in your library and one in your hand. That's pretty powerful. Standard won't have something like that for 1 mana probably ever again.
I played Standard where preordain and ponder were both legal, and in legacy you toss brainstorm into the mix, as well as Ancestral Vision for raw CA. Compared to all that, Serum Visions is just not good, plain and simple. It's the best of what's available, but that doesn't mean it's good.
But you can't compare Serum Visions to the other cantrips because they aren't legal in Modern. Serum Visions is entirely balanced, and entirely abusable especially with cards like Gitaxian Probe floating around. Brainstorm mostly matters in Legacy because of Force.
Back when Ponder and Preordain were in Standard, there was also Delver. Funny how a few 1-drop spells can cause control to dominate a format.
Yes, Serum Visions is the best of what's available. That doesn't mean I can't be grumpy about the fact that better things exist but are unavailable because modern can't have certain strong cards.
Brainstorm matters in legacy because alongside fetches it's comparable to Recall. It's also wonderful at combatting thoughtseize, IoK, and Duress, which are all legal in modern but there's no equivalent to fight against them. It's incredibly versatile, but it's balanced by the fact that without some kind of shuffle effect, it's pretty mediocre.
My biggest issue with Modern really is that they're so iffy on what can and can't be played. Goyf, Bob, Snap, DRS, Delver, Thoughtseize, these are all highly playable cards in Legacy, but they're not too strong for Modern? And Wild Nacatl is? Nonsense. Thopter-Foundry isn't even T1 in legacy, but that's too good as well (despite the fact that it loses to abrupt decay and krosan grip)
I have many issues with modern as a format. The only saving grace in my opinion is that it's so de-powered that archetypes that couldn't exist in legscy are playable.
Yes, Serum Visions is the best of what's available. That doesn't mean I can't be grumpy about the fact that better things exist but are unavailable because modern can't have certain strong cards.
Brainstorm matters in legacy because alongside fetches it's comparable to Recall. It's also wonderful at combatting thoughtseize, IoK, and Duress, which are all legal in modern but there's no equivalent to fight against them. It's incredibly versatile, but it's balanced by the fact that without some kind of shuffle effect, it's pretty mediocre.
My biggest issue with Modern really is that they're so iffy on what can and can't be played. Goyf, Bob, Snap, DRS, Delver, Thoughtseize, these are all highly playable cards in Legacy, but they're not too strong for Modern? And Wild Nacatl is? Nonsense. Thopter-Foundry isn't even T1 in legacy, but that's too good as well (despite the fact that it loses to abrupt decay and krosan grip)
I have many issues with modern as a format. The only saving grace in my opinion is that it's so de-powered that archetypes that couldn't exist in legscy are playable.
Yeah, very strange, but I will say without the ability to counter turn 1 reliability it's just too hard for me to care about this.
The next set is kind of meh.
archetype of imagination and fated infatuation is kind of EDH material and spirit of the labryinth is kind of cool
You've got to understand, Serum Visions' availability in Modern is a much better comparison than what other decks have compared to their Legacy versions.
You've got to understand, Serum Visions' availability in Modern is a much better comparison than what other decks have compared to their Legacy versions.
For any given archetype that exists in both formats, that, due to the different card pools, has some similar but not identical cards: It's much easier to compare the impact of replacing Brainstorm and the now banned Preordain & Ponder with Visions, than most other cards Modern plays for a lack of the better options Legacy has.
First, the Modern approach to some archetypes is quite different from the Legacy one, due to a different pool and meta. Most replacement cards have slightly different roles than what they replace. Whereas Visions fills the exactly same role.
Second, most replacement cards are not fixed versions of older cards. Unlike Visions, that is extremly close to being strictly inferior. Interestingly enough Visions was made before the banned Ps.
Third, most replacements are not worse than three options Legacy has. Visions simply sticks out.
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Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing.
We define the boundaries of reality; they don't define us.
You know what's misleading? Printing terrible cards in Commander decks. Bouncelands/Karoo lands, a bunch of lands that enter tapped, Sol Ring as the only mana rock, a bunch of fetching strategies, etc. It's all fragile. I'm not saying that every Commander set needs to have the most broken P3K and Legends Stax pieces, but Wizards could at least realize that the Commander decks set you up for failure. /rant
L5R will never outrun Magic's profits and player base as long as players are only interested in playing casually, regardless of the fact that L5R is cheaper to play competitively.
Forgot to reply to this, my apologies.
I think the mentality with the commander decks was similar to that of the event decks, where they have explicitly stated they are meant to win 25% of games (with even skill). I expect the commander decks are meant to have half as many wins as anyone else at the table as well, and in multiplayer especially that's very easy to do. That said, yes, the commander decks are much worse than you'd expect.
Beware, L5R below:
L5R recently went through a rules change during Emperor Edition that took off the rulebook "triggers and actions are once per turn" clause. Needless to say, it spun out of control, so they brought it back. Cards still don't say "once per turn," but instead are just understood as such. Repeatable actions are noted as such "Repeatable Battle," "Rpeatable Limited" (usually followed by a gold cost), and reaction was even changed to "interrupt" as it no longer responds to a particular clause, but resolves after the action to which it is responding.
Clarification: This is not true.
The big change was that "Reaction: Any number of times per turn, after {trigger}: {Effect}" was formerly understood to mean "Reaction: Any number of times per turn, but only once per trigger, after {trigger}: {Effect}." With Emperor, this was removed (and later readded when they realized how broken it was.)
...Anyways, any thoughts on Ivory? Personally, I think it'll be a lot of a fun. ("Tireless Open: Name a" - I was pretty much sold on my stronghold when I got that far.)
-Blue doesn't have a Modern Force of Will equivalent.
-Jund doesn't have a Modern BBE equivalent.
-Elves doesn't have a good enough Modern Glimpse of Nature. Beck doesn't cut it.
-Elves doesn't have Modern Gaea's Cradle, but they do have Nykthos. You need quite a few Elves in play before it's even relevant, though.
-Elves doesn't have anything as cheap as GSZ in Modern for grabbing Dryad Arbor or a relevant Elf, and certainly no Modern equivalent to Crop Rotation.
-Death and Taxes doesn't have the much-needed Modern equivalent of Karakas. Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp are too clunky for trying to Mangara-mash. I know that Legacy still runs Flickerwisp, but not necessarily Mangara.
-Death and Taxes doesn't have a Modern Rishadan Port equivalent.
Clarification: This is not true.
The big change was that "Reaction: Any number of times per turn, after {trigger}: {Effect}" was formerly understood to mean "Reaction: Any number of times per turn, but only once per trigger, after {trigger}: {Effect}." With Emperor, this was removed (and later readded when they realized how broken it was.)
...Anyways, any thoughts on Ivory? Personally, I think it'll be a lot of a fun. ("Tireless Open: Name a" - I was pretty much sold on my stronghold when I got that far.)
My mistake. I did see the particular thread and articles discussing the change, but I guess I misinterpreted it.
-Blue doesn't have a Modern Force of Will equivalent.
-Jund doesn't have a Modern BBE equivalent.
-Elves doesn't have a good enough Modern Glimpse of Nature. Beck doesn't cut it.
-Elves doesn't have Modern Gaea's Cradle, but they do have Nykthos. You need quite a few Elves in play before it's even relevant, though.
-Elves doesn't have anything as cheap as GSZ in Modern for grabbing Dryad Arbor or a relevant Elf, and certainly no Modern equivalent to Crop Rotation.
-Death and Taxes doesn't have the much-needed Modern equivalent of Karakas. Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp are too clunky for trying to Mangara-mash. I know that Legacy still runs Flickerwisp, but not necessarily Mangara.
-Death and Taxes doesn't have a Modern Rishadan Port equivalent.
Glimpse, BBE, and GSZ are modern cards, though. They were the modern equivalent. Wizards continues to print cards that are strong enough to see legacy play, but are too strong for modern, which leads to problems. Honestly though, I think the main thing is that modern doesn't have force of will. If it did, most of the ban list could... you know.. stop being banned.
If they continue to print cards that are too good, and proceed to ban them, people will grow to resent it (more so than they already have.) If they stop printing powerful cards so as to not upset the status quo, then the format stagnates and sales decline.
But the argument that cards that used to be legal can't have similar equivalents isn't a very good one. I'm not saying we need GSZ in Modern, or any of the other cards. I'm just saying that we need something that's cheap enough to be good enough.
Honestly though, I think the main thing is that modern doesn't have force of will. If it did, most of the ban list could... you know.. stop being banned.
This.
FOW is the glue that holds Legacy together, it gives you a way to stop unfair decks turn 1/2; at the cost of card advantage and 1 life.
Private Mod Note
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"It was probably a lousy spell in the first place."
—Ertai, wizard adept
But the argument that cards that used to be legal can't have similar equivalents isn't a very good one. I'm not saying we need GSZ in Modern, or any of the other cards. I'm just saying that we need something that's cheap enough to be good enough.
I'm not making that argument. I'm saying you shouldn't be OK with a weaker equivalent because it's just silly that those cards are banned. They're strong, but the reason they seem too strong is because they're not being combated by other equally strong cards, because those were banned, too. BBE kept Mindsculptor in check while it was Standard legal, FoW keeps combo in check in Legacy, and other such examples could exist in Modern. I'm not saying that the ban list should be completely cleared. However, the number of cards that are banned is quite ridiculous, in my opinion. Yes, the Modern card pool needs a few extra things to make it more balanced in this sense, but the current methods used to balance the format are poor ones.
It's nice to see debate on modern and legacy. Too bad I can't participate.
An update to one of my designs; Unexpectedly Absent is the parametric Long-Term Plans effect.
Destiny Chimes
Artifact
As long as you control a legendary permanent, if you would draw a card, instead you may skip that draw. If you do, choose a legendary permanent you control and search your library for a card. Shuffle your library, then put that card into your library where exactly X cards are on top of it, where X is the number of (other?) permanents you control that share a card type with that permanent. Then put the top card of your library into your hand. It signals not the call to action, but the surrender of arms, the final concession of the world's will.
Destiny Chimes
Artifact
As long as you control a legendary permanent, if you would draw a card, instead you may skip that draw. If you do, choose a legendary permanent you control and search your library for a card. Shuffle your library, then put that card into your library just beneath the top X cards of it, where X is the number of other permanents you control that share a card type with that permanent. Then put the top card of your library into your hand. It signals not the call to action, but the surrender of arms, the final concession of the world's will.
It's a dumb card I must say. Heroes' Podium is much better. I'm still mad I didn't submit that other card from the post to YMTC4.
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I am blown away by how civil this discussion has been.
Every time i play modern i feel like im playing legacy with my hands tied. I know thats not an empirical argument, but thats the feeling i get.
That said, im in the process of transitioning an old merfolk deck over to modern just so i can enjoy games with newer players without feeling like im whipping out a bazooka to hunt rabbits.
Legacy events have shown growing numbers over the course of the last few years, so i feel the format is safe, but when trying to introduce new friends to the game, and at my age where my friends have small children, legacy isnt exactly a format i can push.
Granted...most high tier modern decks are disgustingly over priced as well...
It's nice to see debate on modern and legacy. Too bad I can't participate.
An update to one of my designs; Unexpectedly Absent is the parametric Long-Term Plans effect.
Destiny Chimes
Artifact
As long as you control a legendary permanent, if you would draw a card, instead you may skip that draw. If you do, choose a legendary permanent you control and search your library for a card. Shuffle your library, then put that card into your library just beneath the top X cards of it, where X is the number of other permanents you control that share a card type with that permanent. Then put the top card of your library into your hand. It signals not the call to action, but the surrender of arms, the final concession of the world's will.
It's a dumb card I must say. Heroes' Podium is much better. I'm still mad I didn't submit that other card from the post to YMTC4.
Heroes' Podium is just a watered down Captain Sisay. Better? Maybe, but less interesting.
I am blown away by how civil this discussion has been.
You shouldn't be. We are people of reason, after all. Even though Gunso is still relatively new, I can already tell he fits among us very well.
Every time i play modern i feel like im playing legacy with my hands tied. I know thats not an empirical argument, but thats the feeling i get.
That said, im in the process of transitioning an old merfolk deck over to modern just so i can enjoy games with newer players without feeling like im whipping out a bazooka to hunt rabbits.
I need to put together a 'new-friendly' deck. The closest thing I have are my EDH decks which obviously don't work very well if they don't have one as well, and any 60 card deck I have is somewhat mean (Mono U Tron and Owls for modern, D&T, Stax, Solidarity and TES for legacy) so that's a no-go.
Granted...most high tier modern decks are disgustingly over priced as well...
Agreed. Even less-serious decks can reach stupid prices, like Top Control, which has 3-4 mox opal and 4 fetches at minimum as high-dollar cards, with a handful of medium-value goodies interspersed throughout.
This.
FOW is the glue that holds Legacy together, it gives you a way to stop unfair decks turn 1/2; at the cost of card advantage and 1 life.
I'm going out on a limb here and say that FoW is not as important you say here and lots of people do elsewhere. There's other reasonably cheap 1:1 (Force technically is 1:2, but that's besides the point) answers that would fill the gap atleast good enough. I'm sure there's loads of feedback loops in a counterfactual model, but something says me the changes in win ratios of unfair decks would be small and not be the deciding factor in the resulting meta game change, once it rebalanced itself, but that decks relying on FoW got weaker overall.
Modern has some of its bans because Wizards openly stated they do not want the format to be too fast. It's not (all) about balance. Legacy is what you get when you have balance as #1 priority. In some twisted way this makes sense for Modern, despite the naysayers. Formats need to be different for each to appeal to enough people. There's an example.
Yes, the Modern card pool needs a few extra things to make it more balanced in this sense, but the current methods used to balance the format are poor ones.
Probably not what you ment, but you are right, in that Modern needs a few more things to find a better self-balance that also keeps the speed under the desired limit. The BNG card Spirit of the Labyrinth's most outstanding feature is that it will make an impact in only one format, when two others also could play it. Implying it will not make the cut in Modern or Standard against more relevant options within each. Such cards give me hope that Wizards might manage to hit this good spot again in future sets. Over time often enough to let Modern evolve rather than being bred.
It's nice to see debate on modern and legacy. Too bad I can't participate.
An update to one of my designs; Unexpectedly Absent is the parametric Long-Term Plans effect.
Destiny Chimes
Artifact
As long as you control a legendary permanent, if you would draw a card, instead you may skip that draw. If you do, choose a legendary permanent you control and search your library for a card. Shuffle your library, then put that card into your library just beneath the top X cards of it, where X is the number of other permanents you control that share a card type with that permanent. Then put the top card of your library into your hand. It signals not the call to action, but the surrender of arms, the final concession of the world's will.
It's a dumb card I must say. Heroes' Podium is much better. I'm still mad I didn't submit that other card from the post to YMTC4.
What a wall of words. With Wizards' updated wording atleast its is less of a jawbreaker. Might be too easy to enable off legendary lands, but then there's this balancing factor in that you can't add too many of a given cardtype to a list without potentially watering down the Tutor effect. An elegant feature :), preventing me from coming to a conclusion about this things power. Neat, but potentially dangerous, with incentives to play utility lands. I approve.
I am blown away by how civil this discussion has been.
If this surprises you, you must have mistakenly taken expectations about specific areas of the forum that shall not be named to this place.
That said, im in the process of transitioning an old merfolk deck over to modern just so i can enjoy games with newer players without feeling like im whipping out a bazooka to hunt rabbits.
Artillery shells, cluster bombs and NBC's have proven more effective in rabbit extermination. I also heared German soldiers who had to secure 'Die Mauer' have acquired some competence on the field.
Heroes' Podium is just a watered down Captain Sisay. Better? Maybe, but less interesting.
To me it's like a Coat of Arms just for the creature type Legend. It also has an attached mana sink, that is only worth it in the only kind of deck that will ever play this card. It's also obvious to the point of being displeasing.
What I actually came here for is a question and to end the post another bold hypothesis on blue cards.
First I'd like to know what you think to be the better play. The outline, and I hope I'm precise enough here, is that your opponent has a few creatures that could goldfish in three turns, you also have a three turn clock in one creature (Reckoner, so it won't be blocked). You're at ~24 life, the op. at 9. You play a deck with some direct damage spells (mostly Helixes, that's how you got the life). Your opponent plays green. Opponent is in topdeck mode, you hold a few irrelevant cards. Your opponent attacks for 8.
Now the actual play in question: You can either prevent the damage using utility lands resulting in no change of board position (yes, your opponent attacks into that), or take the damage and cast a Relevation for four. To Maze or to Stroke?
And to end: Gitaxian Probe's information is more valuable than Serum Visions' information.
I exclude the Ps and BS, because their extra over Reach Through Mists is more than just information. If those were excluded, I'd add them, but that's hairy to discuss.
I'm going out on a limb here and say that FoW is not as important you say here and lots of people do elsewhere. There's other reasonably cheap 1:1 (Force technically is 1:2, but that's besides the point) answers that would fill the gap atleast good enough. I'm sure there's loads of feedback loops in a counterfactual model, but something says me the changes in win ratios of unfair decks would be small and not be the deciding factor in the resulting meta game change, once it rebalanced itself, but that decks relying on FoW got weaker overall.
I don't mean this with any amount of offense, so please don't take it that way. Have you seen some 'unfair' legacy decks? Belcher has a greater than 70% Turn 1 win rate with no disruption, and Spanish Inquisition, All spells, and Cheerios(!) support similar rates. With no Force of Will, you just lose to these decks. Force of Will keeps them in check, and there's no substitute. when you're on the play, you stand a chance with stuff like thoughtseize, but let's say they win G1, you win G2 because you removed their combo piece and managed to get there, you proceed to lose G3. Even leyline of sanctity doesn't save you, as all spells, belcher, and cheerios are all capable of winning without targeting you even once in their current iteration, and even SI can incorporate ways to win through it if they don't already (hint: empty the warrens for 12-20 goblins wins games.)
Cheerios is notable because it's a laughably obscure deck, but it's crazy fast. You need 1 land and a glimpse of nature, after which you just win if they don't have force.
Probably not what you ment, but you are right, in that Modern needs a few more things to find a better self-balance that also keeps the speed under the desired limit.
This is precisely what I meant.
What I actually came here for is a question and to end the post another bold hypothesis on blue cards.
First I'd like to know what you think to be the better play. The outline, and I hope I'm precise enough here, is that your opponent has a few creatures that could goldfish in three turns, you also have a three turn clock in one creature (Reckoner, so it won't be blocked). You're at ~24 life, the op. at 9. You play a deck with some direct damage spells (mostly Helixes, that's how you got the life). Your opponent plays green. Opponent is in topdeck mode, you hold a few irrelevant cards. Your opponent attacks for 8.
Now the actual play in question: You can either prevent the damage using utility lands resulting in no change of board position (yes, your opponent attacks into that), or take the damage and cast a Relevation for four. To Maze or to Stroke?
There's no question what the right play is, you Rev for 4. Your objective is not to 'not lose,' but to win. Life is irrelevant until the last point, and as such you're effectively trading 4 life for 4 cards if you're using sphinx rev. Last I heard, yawgmoth's bargain was pretty good. Even if you're not gaining life, say you've got a blue sun's zenith instead, it's still worth it. The only time it's better to take the other option is if the swing will kill you (or put you in range of burn, but if the opponent is on mono green then that's not a factor.) Card advantage is king, and if you're playing burn, drawing 4 cards is quite possibly just the end of the game. Even if it doesn't, it puts you closer by drawing through potentially dead cards.
And to end: Gitaxian Probe's information is more valuable than Serum Visions' information.
I exclude the Ps and BS, because their extra over Reach Through Mists is more than just information. If those were excluded, I'd add them, but that's hairy to discuss.
If we're talking about information alone, then probe wins over the two, but visions gives you the ability to filter dead cards. Sure, probe provides more information, but that's missing the point. You don't get to control the draw from it, which sucks, but it controls your next couple, and that's better than probe can say.
As a Spanish Inquisition player and an avid "shiggles" deck-techer on Cockatrice for some of the goofiest combos, I can attest to how important Force of Will is to the Legacy meta. Not only does it keep ramp (end-result Elves) in check and enforces U(x) control matchups to be super common instead of the alternative bi-partisanship (non-blue control vs non-blue control), but Force also keeps the meta from being flooded by players who want to wing it with a budget turn 1 combo. I've tried just about everything from Pros-Bloom to Tezzeret to Eggs, and even mixed a few together for a budget-bastard-box of opponents falsely claiming "I saw a card in your deck, I know what you're playing," followed by." Without Force of Will, every deck would need to be running Thoughtseize and Daze basically.
When I want to teach new players how to play Modern and Legacy, I take bulk extras and make midrange, aggro, and control decks. No real Legacy staples, and that's the point. I allow them to develop a sense of "strictly better, strictly worse, I should be running this, this isn't relevant, etc." Eventually, they slowly climb their way through my bulk until they realize why expensive staples are good. By that point, they've found a real deck that they'd like to play, usually from ones I've shown them.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
Mana Leak is way better than just decent. It wins you early game just for 1U. Unless my opponent is strangely running Pyretic Rituals and Desperate Rituals, it's 1U for "counter target spell." I don't bank on my opponent missing land drops, which is why Tec Edge is a nice partner to Mana Leak.
Never reached Platinum. So far, the games I've played in Silver V have been complete beatdowns in my lane, despite morons somehow throwing it. Nobody will take orders from a support, nobody will make a call to group. Either way, I'm going to have to grind out of it, but it was a very low placement for what I feel my skill level is at (and it is a lower placement than last season, a full year ago).
And for those that only play ranked to keep their place, I don't feel that really counts. There are many issues I have with their league system, and that is one of them.
I havent done my placements yet, but the ranked scene is a mess right now, I am giving it a month or so. My wife is undefeated in her placements so far, Im hoping she places in plat.
@Modern MTG
What are peoples thoughts on Merfolk? Looking to retool my merfolk deck (once legacy) for modern considering ive kinda abandoned legacy fish.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
I played Standard where preordain and ponder were both legal, and in legacy you toss brainstorm into the mix, as well as Ancestral Vision for raw CA. Compared to all that, Serum Visions is just not good, plain and simple. It's the best of what's available, but that doesn't mean it's good.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
Back when Ponder and Preordain were in Standard, there was also Delver. Funny how a few 1-drop spells can cause control to dominate a format.
Brainstorm matters in legacy because alongside fetches it's comparable to Recall. It's also wonderful at combatting thoughtseize, IoK, and Duress, which are all legal in modern but there's no equivalent to fight against them. It's incredibly versatile, but it's balanced by the fact that without some kind of shuffle effect, it's pretty mediocre.
My biggest issue with Modern really is that they're so iffy on what can and can't be played. Goyf, Bob, Snap, DRS, Delver, Thoughtseize, these are all highly playable cards in Legacy, but they're not too strong for Modern? And Wild Nacatl is? Nonsense. Thopter-Foundry isn't even T1 in legacy, but that's too good as well (despite the fact that it loses to abrupt decay and krosan grip)
I have many issues with modern as a format. The only saving grace in my opinion is that it's so de-powered that archetypes that couldn't exist in legscy are playable.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
Yeah, very strange, but I will say without the ability to counter turn 1 reliability it's just too hard for me to care about this.
The next set is kind of meh.
"It was probably a lousy spell in the first place."
—Ertai, wizard adept
Legacy: UW Miracle, U MUC, UW StoneBlade, U Merfolk, R Burn, & UB Reanimator
EDH: U Azami, Lady of Scrolls & URG Riku of Two Reflections
Casual: UR Dragonstorm, UB Dralnu-Teachings, U NinjaFae, & UR Izzet EDH
I'm afraid I don't follow. Care to explain?
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
First, the Modern approach to some archetypes is quite different from the Legacy one, due to a different pool and meta. Most replacement cards have slightly different roles than what they replace. Whereas Visions fills the exactly same role.
Second, most replacement cards are not fixed versions of older cards. Unlike Visions, that is extremly close to being strictly inferior. Interestingly enough Visions was made before the banned Ps.
Third, most replacements are not worse than three options Legacy has. Visions simply sticks out.
Forgot to reply to this, my apologies.
I think the mentality with the commander decks was similar to that of the event decks, where they have explicitly stated they are meant to win 25% of games (with even skill). I expect the commander decks are meant to have half as many wins as anyone else at the table as well, and in multiplayer especially that's very easy to do. That said, yes, the commander decks are much worse than you'd expect.
Beware, L5R below:
Clarification: This is not true.
The big change was that "Reaction: Any number of times per turn, after {trigger}: {Effect}" was formerly understood to mean "Reaction: Any number of times per turn, but only once per trigger, after {trigger}: {Effect}." With Emperor, this was removed (and later readded when they realized how broken it was.)
...Anyways, any thoughts on Ivory? Personally, I think it'll be a lot of a fun. ("Tireless Open: Name a" - I was pretty much sold on my stronghold when I got that far.)
-Blue doesn't have a Modern Force of Will equivalent.
-Jund doesn't have a Modern BBE equivalent.
-Elves doesn't have a good enough Modern Glimpse of Nature. Beck doesn't cut it.
-Elves doesn't have Modern Gaea's Cradle, but they do have Nykthos. You need quite a few Elves in play before it's even relevant, though.
-Elves doesn't have anything as cheap as GSZ in Modern for grabbing Dryad Arbor or a relevant Elf, and certainly no Modern equivalent to Crop Rotation.
-Death and Taxes doesn't have the much-needed Modern equivalent of Karakas. Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp are too clunky for trying to Mangara-mash. I know that Legacy still runs Flickerwisp, but not necessarily Mangara.
-Death and Taxes doesn't have a Modern Rishadan Port equivalent.
My mistake. I did see the particular thread and articles discussing the change, but I guess I misinterpreted it.
Glimpse, BBE, and GSZ are modern cards, though. They were the modern equivalent. Wizards continues to print cards that are strong enough to see legacy play, but are too strong for modern, which leads to problems. Honestly though, I think the main thing is that modern doesn't have force of will. If it did, most of the ban list could... you know.. stop being banned.
If they continue to print cards that are too good, and proceed to ban them, people will grow to resent it (more so than they already have.) If they stop printing powerful cards so as to not upset the status quo, then the format stagnates and sales decline.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
This.
FOW is the glue that holds Legacy together, it gives you a way to stop unfair decks turn 1/2; at the cost of card advantage and 1 life.
"It was probably a lousy spell in the first place."
—Ertai, wizard adept
Legacy: UW Miracle, U MUC, UW StoneBlade, U Merfolk, R Burn, & UB Reanimator
EDH: U Azami, Lady of Scrolls & URG Riku of Two Reflections
Casual: UR Dragonstorm, UB Dralnu-Teachings, U NinjaFae, & UR Izzet EDH
I'm not making that argument. I'm saying you shouldn't be OK with a weaker equivalent because it's just silly that those cards are banned. They're strong, but the reason they seem too strong is because they're not being combated by other equally strong cards, because those were banned, too. BBE kept Mindsculptor in check while it was Standard legal, FoW keeps combo in check in Legacy, and other such examples could exist in Modern. I'm not saying that the ban list should be completely cleared. However, the number of cards that are banned is quite ridiculous, in my opinion. Yes, the Modern card pool needs a few extra things to make it more balanced in this sense, but the current methods used to balance the format are poor ones.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
An update to one of my designs; Unexpectedly Absent is the parametric Long-Term Plans effect.
Destiny Chimes
Artifact
As long as you control a legendary permanent, if you would draw a card, instead you may skip that draw. If you do, choose a legendary permanent you control and search your library for a card. Shuffle your library, then put that card into your library just beneath the top X cards of it, where X is the number of other permanents you control that share a card type with that permanent. Then put the top card of your library into your hand.
It signals not the call to action, but the surrender of arms, the final concession of the world's will.
It's a dumb card I must say. Heroes' Podium is much better. I'm still mad I didn't submit that other card from the post to YMTC4.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Every time i play modern i feel like im playing legacy with my hands tied. I know thats not an empirical argument, but thats the feeling i get.
That said, im in the process of transitioning an old merfolk deck over to modern just so i can enjoy games with newer players without feeling like im whipping out a bazooka to hunt rabbits.
Legacy events have shown growing numbers over the course of the last few years, so i feel the format is safe, but when trying to introduce new friends to the game, and at my age where my friends have small children, legacy isnt exactly a format i can push.
Granted...most high tier modern decks are disgustingly over priced as well...
Legacy is more fun. There. I said it.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Heroes' Podium is just a watered down Captain Sisay. Better? Maybe, but less interesting.
You shouldn't be. We are people of reason, after all. Even though Gunso is still relatively new, I can already tell he fits among us very well.
I need to put together a 'new-friendly' deck. The closest thing I have are my EDH decks which obviously don't work very well if they don't have one as well, and any 60 card deck I have is somewhat mean (Mono U Tron and Owls for modern, D&T, Stax, Solidarity and TES for legacy) so that's a no-go.
Agreed. Even less-serious decks can reach stupid prices, like Top Control, which has 3-4 mox opal and 4 fetches at minimum as high-dollar cards, with a handful of medium-value goodies interspersed throughout.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
I'm going out on a limb here and say that FoW is not as important you say here and lots of people do elsewhere. There's other reasonably cheap 1:1 (Force technically is 1:2, but that's besides the point) answers that would fill the gap atleast good enough. I'm sure there's loads of feedback loops in a counterfactual model, but something says me the changes in win ratios of unfair decks would be small and not be the deciding factor in the resulting meta game change, once it rebalanced itself, but that decks relying on FoW got weaker overall.
Modern has some of its bans because Wizards openly stated they do not want the format to be too fast. It's not (all) about balance. Legacy is what you get when you have balance as #1 priority. In some twisted way this makes sense for Modern, despite the naysayers. Formats need to be different for each to appeal to enough people. There's an example.
Probably not what you ment, but you are right, in that Modern needs a few more things to find a better self-balance that also keeps the speed under the desired limit. The BNG card Spirit of the Labyrinth's most outstanding feature is that it will make an impact in only one format, when two others also could play it. Implying it will not make the cut in Modern or Standard against more relevant options within each. Such cards give me hope that Wizards might manage to hit this good spot again in future sets. Over time often enough to let Modern evolve rather than being bred.
What a wall of words. With Wizards' updated wording atleast its is less of a jawbreaker. Might be too easy to enable off legendary lands, but then there's this balancing factor in that you can't add too many of a given cardtype to a list without potentially watering down the Tutor effect. An elegant feature :), preventing me from coming to a conclusion about this things power. Neat, but potentially dangerous, with incentives to play utility lands. I approve.
If this surprises you, you must have mistakenly taken expectations about specific areas of the forum that shall not be named to this place.
Artillery shells, cluster bombs and NBC's have proven more effective in rabbit extermination. I also heared German soldiers who had to secure 'Die Mauer' have acquired some competence on the field.
To me it's like a Coat of Arms just for the creature type Legend. It also has an attached mana sink, that is only worth it in the only kind of deck that will ever play this card. It's also obvious to the point of being displeasing.
What I actually came here for is a question and to end the post another bold hypothesis on blue cards.
First I'd like to know what you think to be the better play. The outline, and I hope I'm precise enough here, is that your opponent has a few creatures that could goldfish in three turns, you also have a three turn clock in one creature (Reckoner, so it won't be blocked). You're at ~24 life, the op. at 9. You play a deck with some direct damage spells (mostly Helixes, that's how you got the life). Your opponent plays green. Opponent is in topdeck mode, you hold a few irrelevant cards. Your opponent attacks for 8.
Now the actual play in question: You can either prevent the damage using utility lands resulting in no change of board position (yes, your opponent attacks into that), or take the damage and cast a Relevation for four. To Maze or to Stroke?
And to end: Gitaxian Probe's information is more valuable than Serum Visions' information.
I exclude the Ps and BS, because their extra over Reach Through Mists is more than just information. If those were excluded, I'd add them, but that's hairy to discuss.
I don't mean this with any amount of offense, so please don't take it that way. Have you seen some 'unfair' legacy decks? Belcher has a greater than 70% Turn 1 win rate with no disruption, and Spanish Inquisition, All spells, and Cheerios(!) support similar rates. With no Force of Will, you just lose to these decks. Force of Will keeps them in check, and there's no substitute. when you're on the play, you stand a chance with stuff like thoughtseize, but let's say they win G1, you win G2 because you removed their combo piece and managed to get there, you proceed to lose G3. Even leyline of sanctity doesn't save you, as all spells, belcher, and cheerios are all capable of winning without targeting you even once in their current iteration, and even SI can incorporate ways to win through it if they don't already (hint: empty the warrens for 12-20 goblins wins games.)
Cheerios is notable because it's a laughably obscure deck, but it's crazy fast. You need 1 land and a glimpse of nature, after which you just win if they don't have force.
This is precisely what I meant.
There's no question what the right play is, you Rev for 4. Your objective is not to 'not lose,' but to win. Life is irrelevant until the last point, and as such you're effectively trading 4 life for 4 cards if you're using sphinx rev. Last I heard, yawgmoth's bargain was pretty good. Even if you're not gaining life, say you've got a blue sun's zenith instead, it's still worth it. The only time it's better to take the other option is if the swing will kill you (or put you in range of burn, but if the opponent is on mono green then that's not a factor.) Card advantage is king, and if you're playing burn, drawing 4 cards is quite possibly just the end of the game. Even if it doesn't, it puts you closer by drawing through potentially dead cards.
If we're talking about information alone, then probe wins over the two, but visions gives you the ability to filter dead cards. Sure, probe provides more information, but that's missing the point. You don't get to control the draw from it, which sucks, but it controls your next couple, and that's better than probe can say.
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes WW
Modern
WBMartyr-Proc BW
When I want to teach new players how to play Modern and Legacy, I take bulk extras and make midrange, aggro, and control decks. No real Legacy staples, and that's the point. I allow them to develop a sense of "strictly better, strictly worse, I should be running this, this isn't relevant, etc." Eventually, they slowly climb their way through my bulk until they realize why expensive staples are good. By that point, they've found a real deck that they'd like to play, usually from ones I've shown them.