Seriously, what is it or perhaps why do people do it?
I mean, the former should be clear to anyone (i.e., flaming via PM, obv), but is it possible that the flaming isn't flaming?
In any case, why would people flame via PM? This is just too weird.
I'm not trying to stir the pot and suggest that there is staff abuse of power or authority or whatever. I genuinely want to know what is going on with some members getting suspended/banned and why it is happening.
Lets say I really hate you. And instead of ignoring you, I decide to PM you, either because I think no one will ever find out, or I don't want it to be public, or I'm just REALLY angry at you. I'll be all like
YOUR USER NAME SUCKS, WHY WOULD YOU PICK 9909! BATMAN SAID HIS PASSWORD WAS 9399, WHICH IS WAY FAR FROM WHAT YOU GOT, YOU SUCK AND ARE DUMB.
MAY YOU ALWAYS GET COLOR SCREWED, AND MAY SOMEONE SPILL COKE ON YOUR CARDS. ALSO YOU ARE FAT!
Regards,
TheEnd ~
It's a way to be mean to people you are unhappy with.
Flaming is flaming, if you get a warning or anything or the sort in a thread then continue the subject through the private message system I don't know how that couldn't be considered anything else. You could even take it to another level and call it borderline harassment if it gets to bad.
People do it because the internet is a safety net. You can take a different 'tough guy' persona online with little to no substantial consequence in the real world. They either get a kick out of it, or don't have the capacity to understand when to drop a certain subject matter.
Lets say I really hate you. And instead of ignoring you, I decide to PM you, either because I think no one will ever find out, or I don't want it to be public, or I'm just REALLY angry at you. I'll be all like
It's a way to be mean to people you are unhappy with.
But flaming by PM is beyond stupid (besides the assumption that no one will know; even if it is a no fun reporting people, you're asking for trouble if you flame by PM and the recipient will surely report the PM) and craven anyway.
Anyway, if you just move on from whatever it is, there's no need to flame anyone.
Flaming is flaming, if you get a warning or anything or the sort in a thread then continue the subject through the private message system I don't know how that couldn't be considered anything else. You could even take it to another level and call it borderline harassment if it gets to bad.
People do it because the internet is a safety net. You can take a different 'tough guy' persona online with little to no substantial consequence in the real world. They either get a kick out of it, or don't have the capacity to understand when to drop a certain subject matter.
So, essentially, from your studied observation of the forums, immaturity is the reason for people pursuing so zealously to the point of flaming via PM. (Correct me if I'm misreading that.)
Thanks for your reply, guys. Sorry if this isn't CI, but I thought it was.
But flaming by PM is beyond stupid (besides the assumption that no one will know; even if it is a no fun reporting people, you're asking for trouble if you flame by PM and the recipient will surely report the PM) and craven anyway.
Anyway, if you just move on from whatever it is, there's no need to flame anyone.
What I read was:
Doing so is childish.
Anyways, if you aren't childish, you won't do childish things.
The reason they flame via PM varies, but generally "flaming via PM" is when a user disagrees with a user or moderator, gets angry at them and starts flaming them in PMs. They respond to a warning or infraction (and some times the resulting suspension) with profanity-laden rants attacking us or the website; they send a user a PM with a similar response for their post in a thread which they disagree with or because you dismantled their argument supported by faulty logic. Just like flaming users in the middle of threads is unacceptable, flaming other users via PM is unacceptable and oftentimes even harassment. In the end it's typically an exceedingly heated response disproportionate to what they're actually angry about or disagree with, but which they couldn't accept gracefully.
I rarely get flamed via PM despite being more hard-handed with moderation in Magic General due to the quality of discussion and rate at which things get out of hand; when I do, though, it's typically in response to an infraction leading up to a suspension by a user who seemed to blatantly disregard the rules, anyway. The users who respond with flaming are usually those that break the rules the most and throw a tantrum when they lose their posting privileges - go figure.
The reason they flame via PM varies, but generally "flaming via PM" is when a user disagrees with a user or moderator, gets angry at them and starts flaming them in PMs. They respond to a warning or infraction (and some times the resulting suspension) with profanity-laden rants attacking us or the website; they send a user a PM with a similar response for their post in a thread which they disagree with or because you dismantled their argument supported by faulty logic. Just like flaming users in the middle of threads is unacceptable, flaming other users via PM is unacceptable and oftentimes even harassment. In the end it's typically an exceedingly heated response disproportionate to what they're actually angry about or disagree with, but which they couldn't accept gracefully.
Thank you very much for your reply. Though I appreciate how detailed it is, I nevertheless hope that it didn't take too long to compose.
So, what about the suspensions and bannings where the former member threatened legal action or whatever? It also sounds incredible and senseless.
Thanks for weighing in, Sene and Xenphire, regardless as members of staff or as long-time members of the site.
Yeah. I guess so.
Thank you very much for your reply. Though I appreciate how detailed it is, I nevertheless hope that it didn't take too long to compose.
So, what about the suspensions and bannings where the former member threatened legal action or whatever? It also sounds incredible and senseless.
It's no problem at all, 9909.
Personally I've never been sent a PM regarding legal action, but I can vaguely recall a few times it's come up on the forums. It really is rather silly, because when it does happen it's usually someone that feels they're entitled to post or do whatever they want without repercussions and regard the whole "freedom of speech" thing. Not only would they rack up legal fees to try to do anything, but they wouldn't even have a case - the forums are privately owned and being allowed to post here is literally a privilege and they agree to that when they register. It's a rather harsh point that is almost never brought up, but it is a fact that many people take for granted who pass through here. I can't recall anyone ever actually followed through with such a threat, though. That action is taken in response such a PM has more to do with them threatening us than anything, as threatening others is a breach of the forum rules.
Personally I've never been sent a PM regarding legal action, but I can vaguely recall a few times it's come up on the forums. It really is rather silly, because when it does happen it's usually someone that feels they're entitled to post or do whatever they want without repercussions and regard the whole "freedom of speech" thing. Not only would they rack up legal fees to try to do anything, but they wouldn't even have a case - the forums are privately owned and being allowed to post here is literally a privilege and they agree to that when they register. It's a rather harsh point that is almost never brought up, but it is a fact that many people take for granted who pass through here. I can't recall anyone ever actually followed through with such a threat, though. That action is taken in response such a PM has more to do with them threatening us than anything, as threatening others is a breach of the forum rules.
Ok, thanks, Xenphire.
Lol, how little I know I know about the Internets and its consumers.
Its funny, but maybe unrelated to the legal action thing, but many people think freedom of speech and expression, means freedom without reprocussions. You are free to say and express yourself the way you want, you still have to do so within the rules and laws that are governing you.
In addition to that Parax, freedom of speech and expression only applies to the US government and any other governments that have adopted that right. So we actually have the right to (and do) censor speech. In this case, we've opted only to censor things like adbot links and swear words.
As for flaming via PM, I've worked call centers, so I couldn't care less when I get flamed because of an infraction. But it does bother me when I see our regular users get flamed by PM. It may be a bit of an inflated ego, but I almost see it as a situation where I'm papa wolf and you're all my cubs and I MUST PROTECT YOU FROM THE STUPID HUMANS THAT POKE US WITH STICKS!
Sure the sticks don't hurt, but that's my job!
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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Its funny, but maybe unrelated to the legal action thing, but many people think freedom of speech and expression, means freedom without reprocussions. You are free to say and express yourself the way you want, you still have to do so within the rules and laws that are governing you.
Why yes.
We all know that it's funny and many people presume to know better than they do. Though, pray tell, what's your point?
In addition to that Parax, freedom of speech and expression only applies to the US government and any other governments that have adopted that right. So we actually have the right to (and do) censor speech. In this case, we've opted only to censor things like adbot links and swear words.
As for flaming via PM, I've worked call centers, so I couldn't care less when I get flamed because of an infraction. But it does bother me when I see our regular users get flamed by PM. It may be a bit of an inflated ego, but I almost see it as a situation where I'm papa wolf and you're all my cubs and I MUST PROTECT YOU FROM THE STUPID HUMANS THAT POKE US WITH STICKS!
Sure the sticks don't hurt, but that's my job!
Thanks, TK-421, for your legal knowledge and expertise as well as the occupational anecdote. Call centres; what a disaster zone and rife with work health and safety issues. Hope you're doing better than that now.
I think another part of it is simply that people think it's okay to flame via PM because other users can't see it since it's not on the main board. (It's not okay, however.)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Basically any reply to warning is considered flaming via pm. They PM you just don't let them catch you PM them back.
The reason they flame via PM varies, but generally "flaming via PM" is when a user disagrees with a user or moderator, gets angry at them and starts flaming them in PMs. They respond to a warning or infraction (and some times the resulting suspension) with profanity-laden rants attacking us or the website; they send a user a PM with a similar response for their post in a thread which they disagree with or because you dismantled their argument supported by faulty logic. Just like flaming users in the middle of threads is unacceptable, flaming other users via PM is unacceptable and oftentimes even harassment. In the end it's typically an exceedingly heated response disproportionate to what they're actually angry about or disagree with, but which they couldn't accept gracefully.
Being snide or sarcastic will also get you an infraction. I got one and it was no profanity nor was it an attack on anyone it was not even a heated response.
Basically any reply to warning is considered flaming via pm.
No.
Examples of responses to warnings/infractions that would be considered "flaming via PM" (and the kind we see sometimes):
**** you and **** this site.
You are the worst mod I've ever seen.
If someone was suspended for flaming via PM in response to a warning, we're often talking about PMs like that.
Over the years I've received a lot of PMs in response to a warning or infraction (I've issued around 1300-1400 warnings/infractions in total), and many of them disagreeing with the decision, but only one single time (that I can recall, anyway) did I get flamed back. That one time action was taken, but all the other ones were fair game - I don't mind an argument, and I don't appreciate the suggestion that we penalize people for just responding to warning PMs.
Basically any reply to warning is considered flaming via pm. They PM you just don't let them catch you PM them back.
Oh, don't be ridiculous (is this a joke? If so, my apologies!) or try to get a rise out of staff. They do their best and they do well, and they deserve some iota of respect.
I respectfully, Sene. In and of itself, it's irreverent and, feh, who cares. You all should be bigger men (and women?) than that.
If there is more to it and it itself is inflammatory or indecent, then perhaps that would be flaming.
If there is more to it and it is genuine criticism or a proper argument and not simply petty bickering, with evidence and examples, then that should be taken as bona fide feedback for the greater good of the site. What are your thoughts?
I think another part of it is simply that people think it's okay to flame via PM because other users can't see it since it's not on the main board. (It's not okay, however.)
Lols.
Oh, by the way, thanks for seriously discussing this. I really didn't know that this was an issue.
I respectfully, Sene. In and of itself, it's irreverent and, feh, who cares. You all should be bigger men (and women?) than that.
It used to be so that we had a "turning the other cheek"-policy when it came to attacking the staff - that we should indeed be bigger men (and women, yes) and take our punishment, since the perception shouldn't be that we penalize users for disagreeing with us (even when they're being complete dicks about it). It sounds nice enough in theory, but in practice it leads to staff burnout. If we let ourselves get walked over, we also create an intolerable atmosphere for ourselves, and moderating the website stops being a recreational thing that you enjoy doing in your spare time. We're all volunteers, and when it stops being fun is also the moment this site will stop having dedicated moderators who put in hours of work every day.
And that's really what it's about - constructive criticism is certainly welcome, but when it's an attack like the example I used, it's not something I'm going to tolerate. A certain amount of respect for those of us who spend a not insignificant portion of our free time attempting to make this place the best it can be is expected. When you've worked on this site for five hours without a penny to show for it, and get a "You're the worst mod ever" in your inbox, that sucks, and I don't want our mods to be subjected to it. Simple as that.
I got an infraction for it, though technically it was harassment, and essentially I deserved it. I had at some point in the past been arguing with some moronic poster about the likelihood of Shocklands appearing in Return to Ravnica, and he was was adamant that it would never happen. I think he made some kind of grand statement like staking his reputation on it or something (I could be wrong though), so I made a note of his user name and as soon as they were officially spoiled I sent some kind of childish PM to him about how much of an idiot he was to be so sure about something so clearly wrong. I don't recall exactly, but I was being a childish jackass to send it to him because we all can get really annoyed at people that we think are being confidently stupid.
I got the infraction, they were right, never happened again.
I mean, the former should be clear to anyone (i.e., flaming via PM, obv), but is it possible that the flaming isn't flaming?
In any case, why would people flame via PM? This is just too weird.
I'm not trying to stir the pot and suggest that there is staff abuse of power or authority or whatever. I genuinely want to know what is going on with some members getting suspended/banned and why it is happening.
I would have had fun with this one.
Lets say I really hate you. And instead of ignoring you, I decide to PM you, either because I think no one will ever find out, or I don't want it to be public, or I'm just REALLY angry at you. I'll be all like
It's a way to be mean to people you are unhappy with.
People do it because the internet is a safety net. You can take a different 'tough guy' persona online with little to no substantial consequence in the real world. They either get a kick out of it, or don't have the capacity to understand when to drop a certain subject matter.
W White Weenie
But flaming by PM is beyond stupid (besides the assumption that no one will know; even if it is a no fun reporting people, you're asking for trouble if you flame by PM and the recipient will surely report the PM) and craven anyway.
Anyway, if you just move on from whatever it is, there's no need to flame anyone.
So, essentially, from your studied observation of the forums, immaturity is the reason for people pursuing so zealously to the point of flaming via PM. (Correct me if I'm misreading that.)
Thanks for your reply, guys. Sorry if this isn't CI, but I thought it was.
What I read was:
Doing so is childish.
Anyways, if you aren't childish, you won't do childish things.
To sum it up, yes. Immaturity is an epidemic online.
W White Weenie
I rarely get flamed via PM despite being more hard-handed with moderation in Magic General due to the quality of discussion and rate at which things get out of hand; when I do, though, it's typically in response to an infraction leading up to a suspension by a user who seemed to blatantly disregard the rules, anyway. The users who respond with flaming are usually those that break the rules the most and throw a tantrum when they lose their posting privileges - go figure.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Yeah. I guess so.
Thank you very much for your reply. Though I appreciate how detailed it is, I nevertheless hope that it didn't take too long to compose.
So, what about the suspensions and bannings where the former member threatened legal action or whatever? It also sounds incredible and senseless.
It's no problem at all, 9909.
Personally I've never been sent a PM regarding legal action, but I can vaguely recall a few times it's come up on the forums. It really is rather silly, because when it does happen it's usually someone that feels they're entitled to post or do whatever they want without repercussions and regard the whole "freedom of speech" thing. Not only would they rack up legal fees to try to do anything, but they wouldn't even have a case - the forums are privately owned and being allowed to post here is literally a privilege and they agree to that when they register. It's a rather harsh point that is almost never brought up, but it is a fact that many people take for granted who pass through here. I can't recall anyone ever actually followed through with such a threat, though. That action is taken in response such a PM has more to do with them threatening us than anything, as threatening others is a breach of the forum rules.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Ok, thanks, Xenphire.
Lol, how little I know I know about the Internets and its consumers.
As for flaming via PM, I've worked call centers, so I couldn't care less when I get flamed because of an infraction. But it does bother me when I see our regular users get flamed by PM. It may be a bit of an inflated ego, but I almost see it as a situation where I'm papa wolf and you're all my cubs and I MUST PROTECT YOU FROM THE STUPID HUMANS THAT POKE US WITH STICKS!
Sure the sticks don't hurt, but that's my job!
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Anything else?
Why yes.
We all know that it's funny and many people presume to know better than they do. Though, pray tell, what's your point?
Thanks, TK-421, for your legal knowledge and expertise as well as the occupational anecdote. Call centres; what a disaster zone and rife with work health and safety issues. Hope you're doing better than that now.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Being snide or sarcastic will also get you an infraction. I got one and it was no profanity nor was it an attack on anyone it was not even a heated response.
No.
Examples of responses to warnings/infractions that would be considered "flaming via PM" (and the kind we see sometimes):
If someone was suspended for flaming via PM in response to a warning, we're often talking about PMs like that.
Over the years I've received a lot of PMs in response to a warning or infraction (I've issued around 1300-1400 warnings/infractions in total), and many of them disagreeing with the decision, but only one single time (that I can recall, anyway) did I get flamed back. That one time action was taken, but all the other ones were fair game - I don't mind an argument, and I don't appreciate the suggestion that we penalize people for just responding to warning PMs.
If this was a joke, please make it clearer.
I respectfully, Sene. In and of itself, it's irreverent and, feh, who cares. You all should be bigger men (and women?) than that.
If there is more to it and it itself is inflammatory or indecent, then perhaps that would be flaming.
If there is more to it and it is genuine criticism or a proper argument and not simply petty bickering, with evidence and examples, then that should be taken as bona fide feedback for the greater good of the site. What are your thoughts?
Lols.
Oh, by the way, thanks for seriously discussing this. I really didn't know that this was an issue.
It used to be so that we had a "turning the other cheek"-policy when it came to attacking the staff - that we should indeed be bigger men (and women, yes) and take our punishment, since the perception shouldn't be that we penalize users for disagreeing with us (even when they're being complete dicks about it). It sounds nice enough in theory, but in practice it leads to staff burnout. If we let ourselves get walked over, we also create an intolerable atmosphere for ourselves, and moderating the website stops being a recreational thing that you enjoy doing in your spare time. We're all volunteers, and when it stops being fun is also the moment this site will stop having dedicated moderators who put in hours of work every day.
And that's really what it's about - constructive criticism is certainly welcome, but when it's an attack like the example I used, it's not something I'm going to tolerate. A certain amount of respect for those of us who spend a not insignificant portion of our free time attempting to make this place the best it can be is expected. When you've worked on this site for five hours without a penny to show for it, and get a "You're the worst mod ever" in your inbox, that sucks, and I don't want our mods to be subjected to it. Simple as that.
I got the infraction, they were right, never happened again.
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