Q: Does Boros Reckoner count as 3 red devotion and 3 white devotion, or does it count as 3 devotion in any combination of red and white? Ex: I have Purphoros, Heliod, and two Reckoners on field. Are both gods creatures?
A: Both Gods are creatures. Are there 5 or more red mana symbols? Yes. Are there 5 or more white mana symbols? Yes.
This really doesn't apply to the demigods... I'm thinking it will probably count hybrid mana symbols twice, simply because I can't figure out a good way to word it that works the other way.
I think the hybrid color gods will specifically say on their cards that the hybrid mana is either one color or the other in the regards to devotion.
Otherwise the U/B God is going to be active as soon as he is played if there is a Nightveil spector on his side of the field.
it would be:
( Each [MANA1[/MANA] in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to color1. Each [MANA2[/MANA] in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to color2.)
or
( Each [MANA1[/MANA] and [MANA2[/MANA] in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to color1 and color2.)
but the gods will not have cause ( i think there is no space)
I think the demi god's devotion is going to be a different type of devotion that looks at the graveyard. It would make the 1RRR burn spell make much more sense if the Mogis turned into a guy when you had 7 or more red and black mana symbols in the graveyard.
I think the demi god's devotion is going to be a different type of devotion that looks at the graveyard. It would make the 1RRR burn spell make much more sense if the Mogis turned into a guy when you had 7 or more red and black mana symbols in the graveyard.
Nefarious Burn costs 1RRR because it would be ridiculous at anything less, not because devotion is going to head to the graveyard.
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[box][box][size=3][b]CARDNAME[/b][/size] [float=right][mana]MANACOST[/mana][/float][/box]
[box][b]TYPE — SUBTYPE [float=right][color="RARITYCOLOUR"]{RARITY}[/color][/b][/float][/box][box]RULES TEXT
[i]FLAVOUR TEXT[/i][/box][float=right][box=50][b][SIZE="3"]P/T[/SIZE][/b][/box][/float][/box]
Have you guys claiming that they'll only count for one side ever played with the chroma mechanic? It's the same idea. Devotion and chroma track the exact same portion of the card, and conveniently enough for comparison, chroma also existed at the same time as cards with hybrid mana costs, and they counted hybrid cards in determining the number of both symbols in mana costs of permanents.
Furthermore, can you imagine how complicated it would be if devotion was determined by some arbitrary allocation of the symbols on the permanents? When would you decide how many boros reckoner symbols you wanted to be red and how many you wanted to be white? How would you indicate it? Wouldn't this add unnecessary delays to games where devotion is irrelevant? Why have players never had to make this decision before when determining whether boros reckoner increased devotion to both red and white or some mix of 3 symbols?
The hybrid cards will almost certainly count for double devotion for the cards which care about devotion to both of its colors, and R&D has most likely taken into account that the R/W and the U/B gods have cards that turn them into creatures immediately.
What I mean, was that reckoner have cmc=3 so he could give you only 3 devotion, to red, to white or mixed, but only 3, not 6.
Something like that you need to chose, if that one hybrid mana is red or white, similar to situation when you are casting reckoner (you cast it for 3R, 3W or combination, not for 3(w/r) mana)
Not how it works, one reckoner provides you with 3 devotion to red at the same time as it provides you with 3 devotion to white. Devotion is not tied to casting cost despite being tied to mana symbols
Two separate instances of devotion. This card, one instance of devotion. The card looks at symbols. There are three symbols on reckoner. Each symbol counts as either red or white, but are each still only counted as one because there's only one symbol on the card, not a red symbol and a white symbol.
The card won't look at symbols though, devotion to foo is not an ability of a card, devotion to foo is a quality that you have that is equal to the number of foo colored symbols of permanents you control. The card will be looking at your devotion. The difference is subtle but important because you have 5 different devotions at all times whether or not a card that cares about it is in play, even if for every color your devotion is 0. When you have a reckoner in play and no other permanents you have devotion to white 3 devotion to blue 0 devotion to black 0 devotion to red 3 and devotion to green 0 regardless of whether or not there is a reason to count it, you have it. If Iroas is looking for you to have 7 devotion to red and white, reckoner will activate him solo. To word the ability in such a way that it doesn't, you would need 14 total devotion to red and white in order to activate him.
It makes no sense to me that a permanent with 3 mana symbols could give you 6 devotion counters, but well, I suppose we'll see it on monday.
It's a matter of how devotion works with hybrid. It (reckoner) increases your devotion to white count by 3 as it has 3 white mana symbols on it. Those same symbols being red as well (how hybrid works) mean that it also increases your devotion to red count by 3. Keep in mind that cards that count your devotion don't count the mana symbols of permanents you control, they actually check YOU as you have the qualities of devotion to white, blue, black, red and green which are determined by the colors of mana symbols of permanents you control.
What if the devotion on the multi color gods was listed as a hybrid mana? As in, "if your devotion to (r/g) is less than 7, x isn't a creature. Would that satisfy both interpretations?
I don't think they'll just change the devotion mechanic all of sudden when applying it to these upcoming dual-colored gods. Devotion simply cares about the number of mana symbols on permanents on your side of the field. Boros Reckoner, while on the field, counts for both 3 devotion to red AND 3 devotion to white at all times. It's not like if you had both Purphoros and Heliod alongside a Reckoner that you could only give either one of them 3 devotion.
The fact that they (allegedly) made the devotion barrier at 7 symbols makes perfect sense considering that the max number of hybrid symbols on any card in Standard atm is 3 (off the top of my head Specter, Reckoner and Raiders). I mean, it's already tough getting out enough devotion to make the mono-colored gods into creatures. By making the dual gods check for 7 total instead of five will open up the chance for many gold colored cards to start seeing more play than they have the last few months with mono-color devotion everywhere. And it makes sense for post-rotation as well as the gods will still be completely playable with a handful of useful gold-colored cards available to use that probably didn't get any play in the previous year.
I don't think there's any chance of these gods requiring 7 devotion to each specific color they represent. That would be extremely difficult to pull off unless they're really cheap to get out onto the battlefield (like 3 cmc), and it wouldn't be worth it at a normal 4-5 cmc unless they had insane abilities. However, as mentioned in the OP, these gods have either one static or triggered ability, no activated ability. That's where the balance between these and the mono-colored gods come into play. Each mono god had an activated ability + one static/triggered ability. Now you only get one, but it's easier to get them out because they check for two colors of devotion.
It all checks out for me, I don't really see why there's so much confusion. I mean, that's just how devotion has worked ever since it was first spoiled.
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
Let me play the big rid bit game too. The buy a box promo is part of a cycle, the white one costs 7.
Are you trying to spoil something?
If so, we need a little more than CMC.
You don't need to spell the card out,
but you should at least hint at what it does.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I would but I would bring upon the "wrath" of a certain person. That's all for now
Lolz, I was hoping for something like that when you mentioned 7cmc!
Thanks, that's more like a normal spoiler
If it can be assumed it's instant, that's very interesting.
We haven't had one of those since Rout, have we?
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
i think minor god p/t will be smaller than 5, and their casting cost bigger than 4 to offset how easy to devotion them into a creature.
Any minor gods with power less than five will see significant play, if only because dodging Selesnya Charm - the most efficient way to deal with gods - is quite important.
Guys, it will be utterly ridiculous if hybrid mana counts double. In practice that will make the gods unplayable without hybrid cards and broken with the hybrid cards; either way a failure from a design perspective.
Now, devotion 7 is a lot, and may be an indication that hybrid actually will count double...
The procedure is probably as usual: count the colored mana symbols and ask the question: "Is this a blue or white mana symbol?" -> hybrid (U/W) gives a yes. So you count it as +1 for a general "devotion for white and blue" total.
It probably is worded as "devotion for X and Y greater than 7", not "devotion for X plus devotion for Y greater than 7".
Imagine that you play the red god, the white god and the white and red god -- and have Boros Reckoner in play.
The white god and the red god will be activated, but the red and white god won't?
That doesn't make sense, really.
However, the 7 devotion cost doesn't make sense either.
===
In any case, this block is going to turn way nuts when the first dual-gods are out and players play up to five different gods in esper / bant -- and possibly even more absurd when they can play six.
This is so totally utterly confusing about the gods. I am thinking that these gods must have some really great other stuff to go with the creature part, because if all you can do to make these creatures is use a lot of hybrid cards then this not playable much.
Assuming the WR god costs RW plus some amount of colorless, then all 3 of them would be active, actually, but I get your point.
You could for example have BTE, Nylea, Purphoros and the GR minor god on the table.
Your Devotion to green would be 4. Nylea would be inactive.
Your Devotion to red would be 4, Purphoros would be inactive.
Your Devotion to red/green would be 8, so the minor god would be active.
That said, I too think that hybrid mana counting twice is pretty silly. It could maybe be worded like: Each G or R mana symbol in permanents you control counts towards either your devotion to red or your devotion to green
We'll see tomorrow I suppose.
That's what I think too, either of the two interpretations (hybrid counting double or not) has it's stupid spots.
Hybrid counting double:
- It doesn't make sense flavourfully, the Specter activating a whole God just with it's devotion? come on.
- It doesn't make sense in comparation with major Gods, not a single creature can activate Thassa in Standard by itself, for example.
Hybrid not counting double:
- The board you mentioned... in certain situations major Gods will be active and minor not... even if you can say that minor gods need more devotion, their power will probably balance that fact.
I would not be shocked if hybrid mana counts as double. These are the minor Gods. Their static abilities and stats should be less than the curent Gods. So even if in certain cases they are easier to turn on, they should still not be as impactful.
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Otherwise the U/B God is going to be active as soon as he is played if there is a Nightveil spector on his side of the field.
This really doesn't apply to the demigods... I'm thinking it will probably count hybrid mana symbols twice, simply because I can't figure out a good way to word it that works the other way.
it would be:
( Each [MANA1[/MANA] in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to color1. Each [MANA2[/MANA] in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to color2.)
or
( Each [MANA1[/MANA] and [MANA2[/MANA] in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to color1 and color2.)
but the gods will not have cause ( i think there is no space)
Nefarious Burn costs 1RRR because it would be ridiculous at anything less, not because devotion is going to head to the graveyard.
Level 1 Judge
Abso-friggin'-lutely not. Not only would that probably not fit, there's no way in hell a card is going to specifically reference hybrid mana.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Furthermore, can you imagine how complicated it would be if devotion was determined by some arbitrary allocation of the symbols on the permanents? When would you decide how many boros reckoner symbols you wanted to be red and how many you wanted to be white? How would you indicate it? Wouldn't this add unnecessary delays to games where devotion is irrelevant? Why have players never had to make this decision before when determining whether boros reckoner increased devotion to both red and white or some mix of 3 symbols?
The hybrid cards will almost certainly count for double devotion for the cards which care about devotion to both of its colors, and R&D has most likely taken into account that the R/W and the U/B gods have cards that turn them into creatures immediately.
This makes sense, while it might seem a little weak, being indestructible would make it a great card.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
What if she costs 3?
Not how it works, one reckoner provides you with 3 devotion to red at the same time as it provides you with 3 devotion to white. Devotion is not tied to casting cost despite being tied to mana symbols
The card won't look at symbols though, devotion to foo is not an ability of a card, devotion to foo is a quality that you have that is equal to the number of foo colored symbols of permanents you control. The card will be looking at your devotion. The difference is subtle but important because you have 5 different devotions at all times whether or not a card that cares about it is in play, even if for every color your devotion is 0. When you have a reckoner in play and no other permanents you have devotion to white 3 devotion to blue 0 devotion to black 0 devotion to red 3 and devotion to green 0 regardless of whether or not there is a reason to count it, you have it. If Iroas is looking for you to have 7 devotion to red and white, reckoner will activate him solo. To word the ability in such a way that it doesn't, you would need 14 total devotion to red and white in order to activate him.
It's a matter of how devotion works with hybrid. It (reckoner) increases your devotion to white count by 3 as it has 3 white mana symbols on it. Those same symbols being red as well (how hybrid works) mean that it also increases your devotion to red count by 3. Keep in mind that cards that count your devotion don't count the mana symbols of permanents you control, they actually check YOU as you have the qualities of devotion to white, blue, black, red and green which are determined by the colors of mana symbols of permanents you control.
The fact that they (allegedly) made the devotion barrier at 7 symbols makes perfect sense considering that the max number of hybrid symbols on any card in Standard atm is 3 (off the top of my head Specter, Reckoner and Raiders). I mean, it's already tough getting out enough devotion to make the mono-colored gods into creatures. By making the dual gods check for 7 total instead of five will open up the chance for many gold colored cards to start seeing more play than they have the last few months with mono-color devotion everywhere. And it makes sense for post-rotation as well as the gods will still be completely playable with a handful of useful gold-colored cards available to use that probably didn't get any play in the previous year.
I don't think there's any chance of these gods requiring 7 devotion to each specific color they represent. That would be extremely difficult to pull off unless they're really cheap to get out onto the battlefield (like 3 cmc), and it wouldn't be worth it at a normal 4-5 cmc unless they had insane abilities. However, as mentioned in the OP, these gods have either one static or triggered ability, no activated ability. That's where the balance between these and the mono-colored gods come into play. Each mono god had an activated ability + one static/triggered ability. Now you only get one, but it's easier to get them out because they check for two colors of devotion.
It all checks out for me, I don't really see why there's so much confusion. I mean, that's just how devotion has worked ever since it was first spoiled.
Are you trying to spoil something?
If so, we need a little more than CMC.
You don't need to spell the card out,
but you should at least hint at what it does.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Lolz, I was hoping for something like that when you mentioned 7cmc!
Thanks, that's more like a normal spoiler
If it can be assumed it's instant, that's very interesting.
We haven't had one of those since Rout, have we?
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Given how oddly specific this is,
and the fact you have the "thanks" of the originator,
I think it's reasonably safe to say this is legit.
I really hope it's Heliod-flavored.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Any minor gods with power less than five will see significant play, if only because dodging Selesnya Charm - the most efficient way to deal with gods - is quite important.
WotC, please hire me already.
Now, devotion 7 is a lot, and may be an indication that hybrid actually will count double...
Imagine that you play the red god, the white god and the white and red god -- and have Boros Reckoner in play.
The white god and the red god will be activated, but the red and white god won't?
That doesn't make sense, really.
However, the 7 devotion cost doesn't make sense either.
===
In any case, this block is going to turn way nuts when the first dual-gods are out and players play up to five different gods in esper / bant -- and possibly even more absurd when they can play six.
They are indestructible, darnit! INDESTRUCTIBLE!
That's what I think too, either of the two interpretations (hybrid counting double or not) has it's stupid spots.
Hybrid counting double:
- It doesn't make sense flavourfully, the Specter activating a whole God just with it's devotion? come on.
- It doesn't make sense in comparation with major Gods, not a single creature can activate Thassa in Standard by itself, for example.
Hybrid not counting double:
- The board you mentioned... in certain situations major Gods will be active and minor not... even if you can say that minor gods need more devotion, their power will probably balance that fact.
Tomorrow we'll see how they make it.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.