But its so good in other matchups, one would better just keep it in. I think the benefits outway the consequences by far and it is something that one can just board out where its bad.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
I disagree that cryptic is an essential part of this deck. We are not a control deck and you will be fine running an aggressive shell without cryptics.
I'm going to have to disagree with you about splicer being good vs grindy decks using Lili. That's exactly what 8Rack does and there were several times where if my opponent had Geist instead of Splicer my Lili would have been dead, and I would have probably lost the match and the Daily. Remember, Geist's angel flies and hits for 4. That makes Geist a great suicide bomber for Lili.
I agree with tiago's view point here. At what stage is geist good against lil? Lil has haste and geist doesn't, Splicer wins against a +1 or a -2, whereas geist only wins against a +1. I highly doubt you'll have more fodder to sac to lil's edicts in this deck.
Point is Splicer is card advantage while geist is a dumb, had to interact with beater. If the deck runs edicts then geist is worse against it than splicer.
I was really hoping that the GP Prague win would finally consolidate the deck into a shell that everyone can agree on.
UWR Midrange Must-Haves
Geist of Saint Traft
Cryptic Command
Vendillion Clique
Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Snapcaster Mage
Electrolyze?
Lightning Helix?
Start with that as your basic shell and the rest will fall into place.
that was always the basic shell. the only thing that was even questionable about this list was geist and cryptic. people have long considered finks and splicer in the 3 slot, and naturally, along with those two, restoration angel is played as a 1-3 of.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
and there's when eiganjo castle comes to be cool. i will never take it out from my shell as long as i run clique and geist.
Yestaerday i try to take out 2x Ajani for a 2x restoration angel. i am not sold AT ALL on her since against Jund it died badly both times i played it. I prefer Ajani so he will come back.
I'd like to play Leak too because it's so cool against Lily and Souls, plus helps a lot against that t3 Karn or Coil, but i don't wanna take snare out...
I'm gonna get to do some testing today, and I'm running a list very close to Hrvatska's list from Prague. Got 2x Resto 2x Clique instead of 1x, 3x, and Thundermaw finally makes an appearance as well, first time for me. Also I think I'm 4x Remand 3x Helix instead of the other way around. I'll see how I like it.
Anyone see that card Brimaz from Born of the Gods? He's got that magical 4 toughness and 3 cmc, and he brings in a buddy when attacking or blocking. Might be worth testing?
I am testing 2 remand, 1 spell snare, one sphinx's revelation and 3 helix instead of 3 rmd and 4 helix. I'll report about it
Brimaz is nice but, he has no flash and the tokens are very weak without no push like honor of the pure etc. They also do not fly. I would still prefer Clique.
I am relatively new to this thread but did you consider Runechanter's Pike for making clique and snapcaster a monster?
Runechanter's came up today when my friend and I were discussing weird tech for UWR. We came to the conclusion that it was nuts mid to late game but it's absolute crap early. If anything, this deck needs help being aggressive early and runechanter's will not get you there.
As far as Brimaz goes, I wasn't thinking it'd be a replacement for Clique. It would replace Geist. It's not as bursty as Geist in damage, but it does end up swinging for 4 with vigilance. And the token might even stay around. And what's more annoying than dealing with tokens without board wipes (which hardly any deck in Modern mainboards)? I do agree that it would probably fit better in a token shell.
I love spell snare. I dont think you should play it over remand but 2-3 catches a lot of people off guard
Edit: forget it, I thought we were talking about Spell Pierce lol.
I settled on dropping Resto altogether and going with 2 Thundermaw main, with 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Cryptic count went down to 2 as well. I'm still only sitting on 2 Cliques which I might bump up to 3 somehow. The deck feels more stable against midrange, with reliable, difficult to deal with cards like Elspeth and Geist and aggressive burst with Thundermaws. The matchup against aggro probably dropped off considerably, and I will have to prepare my board for that I think.
As for the geist vs splicer debate, I like geist. Splicer takes a little more work to make as consitently powerful as geist and that swingness tends me to just want geist.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
As for the geist vs splicer debate, I like geist. Splicer takes a little more work to make as consitently powerful as geist and that swingness tends me to just want geist.
No...just no...no hexproof means he's gone...it would only work in a control variant, not a midrange variety...
Splicer could definitely work in a midrange variant, that's just silly talk. The bottom line here is that they both require the proper shell. Geist demands a shell with a lot of removal so you clear the way for him. He's an efficient beater so you can afford to run fewer creatures. Splicer shines when you get the full playset of Resto in there, with stuff like Finks and Snap and Swords, and then you turn it into a more creature based midrange deck that abuses ETB effects.
Hexproof is so not relevant in this debate. In fact, its fine that he doesn't have hexproof, he ETB with a buddy. That's what's known as a [air quotes]"2-for-1"[/air quotes].
All in favor of putting Splicer vs Geist behind us? Starting to get really redundant.
Splicer could definitely work in a midrange variant, that's just silly talk. The bottom line here is that they both require the proper shell. Geist demands a shell with a lot of removal so you clear the way for him. He's an efficient beater so you can afford to run fewer creatures. Splicer shines when you get the full playset of Resto in there, with stuff like Finks and Snap and Swords, and then you turn it into a more creature based midrange deck that abuses ETB effects.
Hexproof is not the defacto reason to run/not run a creature. In fact, its fine that he doesn't have hexproof, he ETB with a buddy. That's what's known as a [air quotes]"2-for-1"[/air quotes].
All in favor of putting Splicer vs Geist behind us? Starting to get really redundant.
Sorry, I was talking more about the new leonin than splicer, but splicer just doesn't have the same clock would be my main problem...
Sorry, I was talking more about the new leonin than splicer, but splicer just doesn't have the same clock would be my main problem...
Oh gotcha. Yea, the clock isn't the same, but if you put splicer in the proper shell the clock would be fine. He really doesn't fit in this deck.
The cat dude has 4 toughness though, and that's magical in Modern. No hexproof is definitely a problem, but he dodges bolt and bolt-esque spells, which means your opponent is going to waste a Path/Abrupt Decay or 2-for-1 themselves to kill it. To be honest I don't think he fits in this shell either; like Geist and Splicer, he needs to be built around. Snapcaster and Goyf really stand alone in the "I can put this card in any deck that runs its colors" category.
I agree with tiago's view point here. At what stage is geist good against lil? Lil has haste and geist doesn't, Splicer wins against a +1 or a -2, whereas geist only wins against a +1. I highly doubt you'll have more fodder to sac to lil's edicts in this deck.
Point is Splicer is card advantage while geist is a dumb, had to interact with beater. If the deck runs edicts then geist is worse against it than splicer.
The point is you have access to counterspells to back up the Geist at which point he is completely superior to Spilcer in every way. Was it just coincidence that the GP Prague winner ran 0 Splicers and 4 Geists with 3 Cryptic Commands backing it up? Let's learn from our successes as well as our failures no?
that was always the basic shell. the only thing that was even questionable about this list was geist and cryptic. people have long considered finks and splicer in the 3 slot, and naturally, along with those two, restoration angel is played as a 1-3 of.
You say it was always the core shell, but then turn around and question the two most immutable entries on the list - Geist and Cryptic. Later in the discussion people pick out other pieces of the shell. Eventually you are back to square 1 where everyone is running lists that are so different in mana curve and play style that the only thing they really have in common is the fact that they are all UWR.
Doesn't the GP victory give the deck a focal point? Why not take that list and start spinning lines out from that core shell instead plugging along using cards like Blade Splicer which are just not getting the job done?
The point is you have access to counterspells to back up the Geist at which point he is completely superior to Spilcer in every way. Was it just coincidence that the GP Prague winner ran 0 Splicers and 4 Geists with 3 Cryptic Commands backing it up? Let's learn from our successes as well as our failures no?
Yeah you have counters to backup Geist, where he becomes better. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's straight up better in every situation. Geist has a better best case because he has hexproof.
If you think about a matchup against Lili, she has edict. Geist can't beat edict, and he's always going to die to it. Jund is just going to cast turn 3 Lili whether you were on the play and resolved Geist first or you were on your turn 2. And even if they don't run it out into your open mana, your Geist is going to be really slow if you wait until the Lili attempt and counter her first. Turn 3 or 4 Geist still has the problem of 'what if they cast Lili next turn?' because you lose every time. Splicer has a better case against Lili because you sac the 1/1 and kill her next turn. Even in general the Jund is willing to trade Lili for Geist and your spell.
Just because the GP Prague winner has no Splicers, doesn't mean Geist is automatically better in every case and we should never consider Splicer. By that logic we should all run Jan's 8-Rack deck because it has better tournament results. Every list should run 4 Bob 4 Smallpox and that would be that. Let's learn from our successes as well as our failures no?
You say it was always the core shell, but then turn around and question the two most immutable entries on the list - Geist and Cryptic. Later in the discussion people pick out other pieces of the shell. Eventually you are back to square 1 where everyone is running lists that are so different in mana curve and play style that the only thing they really have in common is the fact that they are all UWR.
Doesn't the GP victory give the deck a focal point? Why not take that list and start spinning lines out from that core shell instead plugging along using cards like Blade Splicer which are just not getting the job done?
I question Geist as being "immutable" since he was completely off the radar last summer when CFB's UWR Control took the tournament by storm, playing no Geists except in Shahar's list, which took a backseat.
UWR Midrange and UWR Control are different decks. That's why we have different threads too. One is a midrange tempo deck, focused on some early aggression and tempo plays. I like to think of it as big Delver, where it's basically a Delver deck but we up the mana cost of things. Instead of Delver, Snap, Geist, we have Snap, Geist, Angel. We also get to up our counters and play more Cryptics.
The GP result definitely gives Geist a strong selling point. He's powerful and we all know that. We're just debating how good something like Splicer could be. If everyone always said "card X is just better than card Y", we'd never actually get any development done or innovate. People a year ago thought Geist was just the nuts, so we had just UWR Midrange and UWR Delver. Nobody wondered "hey, what if we took out Geist" because people probably said "are you mad? Geist is insane", and we left it at that. Better for us to try and find out rather than assume, especially when people have actual merit to it.
and there's when eiganjo castle comes to be cool. i will never take it out from my shell as long as i run clique and geist.
Yestaerday i try to take out 2x Ajani for a 2x restoration angel. i am not sold AT ALL on her since against Jund it died badly both times i played it. I prefer Ajani so he will come back.
I'd like to play Leak too because it's so cool against Lily and Souls, plus helps a lot against that t3 Karn or Coil, but i don't wanna take snare out...
I think you are too quick in passing judgment here.
Just cause angel died once or twice in a game against jund, it doesnt mean she is worse than ajani. He may die just as easily, since he cant protect himself very well vs such a grindfest deck.
I suggest you try her for say, a week or 2, then decide, jund really shouldnt have an easy time dealing with an angel, much less 2 of them.
Restoration Angel is amazing. Gives you more Snappies, more Cliques, and safely gets 4 damage in from Geist by saving him from combat. All that on a 3/4 body that flies. 4 is the magic number in Modern, add on that it has evasion for 3 there is no way you can do wrong. The winning GP list only ran 1 because I'm sure he wanted more Cliques because Splinter Twin seems to be way more popular over the pond than it is here, and it's still pretty popular over here.
MemoryLapse, just because Geist won a GP doesn't automatically mean it's the be all end all. Reid Duke got 2nd at Pro Tour with Boggles. Where is Boggles now? Still in tier 2.
MemoryLapse, just because Geist won a GP doesn't automatically mean it's the be all end all. Reid Duke got 2nd at Pro Tour with Boggles. Where is Boggles now? Still in tier 2.
I don't want to engage in this discussion but remember that was the Players Championship, not a PT. It was a rather small tourney (16 players) in which Reid "metagamed" perfectly as most players were on UWR. A GP is a very different beast.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
But its so good in other matchups, one would better just keep it in. I think the benefits outway the consequences by far and it is something that one can just board out where its bad.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
http://blog.mtgmadness.com/index.php/multiple-angles-of-attack-mid-range-kiki-jiki/tiago-chan
I agree with tiago's view point here. At what stage is geist good against lil? Lil has haste and geist doesn't, Splicer wins against a +1 or a -2, whereas geist only wins against a +1. I highly doubt you'll have more fodder to sac to lil's edicts in this deck.
Point is Splicer is card advantage while geist is a dumb, had to interact with beater. If the deck runs edicts then geist is worse against it than splicer.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
that was always the basic shell. the only thing that was even questionable about this list was geist and cryptic. people have long considered finks and splicer in the 3 slot, and naturally, along with those two, restoration angel is played as a 1-3 of.
I'm gonna get to do some testing today, and I'm running a list very close to Hrvatska's list from Prague. Got 2x Resto 2x Clique instead of 1x, 3x, and Thundermaw finally makes an appearance as well, first time for me. Also I think I'm 4x Remand 3x Helix instead of the other way around. I'll see how I like it.
Anyone see that card Brimaz from Born of the Gods? He's got that magical 4 toughness and 3 cmc, and he brings in a buddy when attacking or blocking. Might be worth testing?
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Runechanter's came up today when my friend and I were discussing weird tech for UWR. We came to the conclusion that it was nuts mid to late game but it's absolute crap early. If anything, this deck needs help being aggressive early and runechanter's will not get you there.
As far as Brimaz goes, I wasn't thinking it'd be a replacement for Clique. It would replace Geist. It's not as bursty as Geist in damage, but it does end up swinging for 4 with vigilance. And the token might even stay around. And what's more annoying than dealing with tokens without board wipes (which hardly any deck in Modern mainboards)? I do agree that it would probably fit better in a token shell.
Edit: forget it, I thought we were talking about Spell Pierce lol.
I settled on dropping Resto altogether and going with 2 Thundermaw main, with 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Cryptic count went down to 2 as well. I'm still only sitting on 2 Cliques which I might bump up to 3 somehow. The deck feels more stable against midrange, with reliable, difficult to deal with cards like Elspeth and Geist and aggressive burst with Thundermaws. The matchup against aggro probably dropped off considerably, and I will have to prepare my board for that I think.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Splicer could definitely work in a midrange variant, that's just silly talk. The bottom line here is that they both require the proper shell. Geist demands a shell with a lot of removal so you clear the way for him. He's an efficient beater so you can afford to run fewer creatures. Splicer shines when you get the full playset of Resto in there, with stuff like Finks and Snap and Swords, and then you turn it into a more creature based midrange deck that abuses ETB effects.
Hexproof is so not relevant in this debate. In fact, its fine that he doesn't have hexproof, he ETB with a buddy. That's what's known as a [air quotes]"2-for-1"[/air quotes].
All in favor of putting Splicer vs Geist behind us? Starting to get really redundant.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Sorry, I was talking more about the new leonin than splicer, but splicer just doesn't have the same clock would be my main problem...
Oh gotcha. Yea, the clock isn't the same, but if you put splicer in the proper shell the clock would be fine. He really doesn't fit in this deck.
The cat dude has 4 toughness though, and that's magical in Modern. No hexproof is definitely a problem, but he dodges bolt and bolt-esque spells, which means your opponent is going to waste a Path/Abrupt Decay or 2-for-1 themselves to kill it. To be honest I don't think he fits in this shell either; like Geist and Splicer, he needs to be built around. Snapcaster and Goyf really stand alone in the "I can put this card in any deck that runs its colors" category.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
The point is you have access to counterspells to back up the Geist at which point he is completely superior to Spilcer in every way. Was it just coincidence that the GP Prague winner ran 0 Splicers and 4 Geists with 3 Cryptic Commands backing it up? Let's learn from our successes as well as our failures no?
You say it was always the core shell, but then turn around and question the two most immutable entries on the list - Geist and Cryptic. Later in the discussion people pick out other pieces of the shell. Eventually you are back to square 1 where everyone is running lists that are so different in mana curve and play style that the only thing they really have in common is the fact that they are all UWR.
Doesn't the GP victory give the deck a focal point? Why not take that list and start spinning lines out from that core shell instead plugging along using cards like Blade Splicer which are just not getting the job done?
Compare Geist's presence in tournaments: http://www.mtgo-stats.com/cards/Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft
to Splicer's: http://www.mtgo-stats.com/cards/Blade%20Splicer
Yeah you have counters to backup Geist, where he becomes better. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's straight up better in every situation. Geist has a better best case because he has hexproof.
If you think about a matchup against Lili, she has edict. Geist can't beat edict, and he's always going to die to it. Jund is just going to cast turn 3 Lili whether you were on the play and resolved Geist first or you were on your turn 2. And even if they don't run it out into your open mana, your Geist is going to be really slow if you wait until the Lili attempt and counter her first. Turn 3 or 4 Geist still has the problem of 'what if they cast Lili next turn?' because you lose every time. Splicer has a better case against Lili because you sac the 1/1 and kill her next turn. Even in general the Jund is willing to trade Lili for Geist and your spell.
Just because the GP Prague winner has no Splicers, doesn't mean Geist is automatically better in every case and we should never consider Splicer. By that logic we should all run Jan's 8-Rack deck because it has better tournament results. Every list should run 4 Bob 4 Smallpox and that would be that. Let's learn from our successes as well as our failures no?
I question Geist as being "immutable" since he was completely off the radar last summer when CFB's UWR Control took the tournament by storm, playing no Geists except in Shahar's list, which took a backseat.
UWR Midrange and UWR Control are different decks. That's why we have different threads too. One is a midrange tempo deck, focused on some early aggression and tempo plays. I like to think of it as big Delver, where it's basically a Delver deck but we up the mana cost of things. Instead of Delver, Snap, Geist, we have Snap, Geist, Angel. We also get to up our counters and play more Cryptics.
The GP result definitely gives Geist a strong selling point. He's powerful and we all know that. We're just debating how good something like Splicer could be. If everyone always said "card X is just better than card Y", we'd never actually get any development done or innovate. People a year ago thought Geist was just the nuts, so we had just UWR Midrange and UWR Delver. Nobody wondered "hey, what if we took out Geist" because people probably said "are you mad? Geist is insane", and we left it at that. Better for us to try and find out rather than assume, especially when people have actual merit to it.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I think you are too quick in passing judgment here.
Just cause angel died once or twice in a game against jund, it doesnt mean she is worse than ajani. He may die just as easily, since he cant protect himself very well vs such a grindfest deck.
I suggest you try her for say, a week or 2, then decide, jund really shouldnt have an easy time dealing with an angel, much less 2 of them.
MemoryLapse, just because Geist won a GP doesn't automatically mean it's the be all end all. Reid Duke got 2nd at Pro Tour with Boggles. Where is Boggles now? Still in tier 2.
I don't want to engage in this discussion but remember that was the Players Championship, not a PT. It was a rather small tourney (16 players) in which Reid "metagamed" perfectly as most players were on UWR. A GP is a very different beast.