I don't really care about proxies for home use or testing. But I'm 100% against buying counterfeits for ANY purpose. Encouraging printers to create fakes increases the number of fakes that end up in online auctions or in peoples' trade binders.
As for proxies being "illegal": AFAIK WotC has never prosecuted people for proxying as long as they were not selling the proxies, even though proxy Vintage (for instance) has been a thing for a long time. The World Championship deck series included blank cards for the express purpose of making your own proxies. So at the minimum WotC must be okay with written proxies, and what matters the most for copyright cases is whether or not the rightsholder cares.
I've worked @NHQ for a federal law enforcement agency in the past, and while there was more of a focus on detecting fraud than IP Theft/counterfeiting the pressure is out there to stop these kinds of things when it happens (as long as there's enough cash/publicity to be had by whatever agency is pursuing it - or a strong enough push by whichever industry feels like it's impacting them (MPAA)).
It seems like the more copies that were out there, the greater the supply was (obviously) - which typically depresses prices. This hurts places like SCG, T&T, ABU, CoolStuff the most - and they really need to get with Wizards about it and prepare to make some tough decisions on how to protect their assets and their product.
Incidentally, if you follow the world of stereolithography/3D printing/rapid prototyping, it seems like sights are set (maybe 40+ years out)on doing exactly what you described (molecule-perfect copies) not just of Jaces, but all consumer goods. Many econo-futurists see that being the doorway to living in a post-consumer society. If you think the RIAA/MPAA have their panties in a twist over media, imagine what'll happen when self-replicating fabricators get out into the open and you can cook a Rolex or a pair of nikes in an hour.
Wow, tangent - sorry. The fact is that no one fake card's gonna crash the economy - but often enough, it's as easy to make one as it is ten thousand - and that is dangerous for everyone.
Yes, we do live in an age where intellectual property laws are seen as suggestions from your friendly federal government, but they are very much illegal. Using proxies at a tournament is against DCI law, but having counterfeit cards is against the real law.
There is no law against drawing a picture and calling it Tarmogoyf and using it with your Magic cards. Its not against any law to write the word Marsh Flats on a piece of paper.
Counterfeit cards and proxies can be different since you dont have to use the original art and all on a proxy.
To me personally I do not do it, because in my brain it breaks a line and once I have done it once I will continually do it and do it and do it and do it. I do placeholder cards in decks when I pull things out and move them around which I don't believe to be the same thing.
I really don't care unless they are hard to read or obnoxious.
I occasionally use them to test out cards before I buy them, but never permanently. I have considered using a few for artistic purposes because sometimes they will just print the **** out of an art I hate like Syphon Mind.
To be honest the arguments against it seem really petty to me. I play magic because I like hard won games. The most satisfying games to me are the ones where you are exchanging blow for blow with your opponents and consistently responding to each others' threats. This is why I play magic, and anything that enhances that experience is fine with me.
If that means I pay $80 for my Force of Will while other people have theirs printed I am fine with that.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
In the perception of many players, this is totally the same. According to many players in these forums, gold-bordered cards are proxies.
Needless to say that it's pretty ridiculous to argue against the use of non-tournament-legal cards in a non-tournament format.
Gold bordered cards can be used as proxies in any game that allows proxies. They, in and of themselves, are not illegal because the copyright holder made them. Counterfeit cards are illegal because the actual law says so - not just because WotC says so.
Let's change it then. I give you a stack of $100 dollar bills and tell you some of them are real, some of them are counterfeit. Do you spend the money? If so, how do you feel about yourself when you do it? You can't tell that some are fake, so are you still breaking the law?
Honestly this is a moral question, and I would definitely spend all of it because wealth is already so much based on illicit deals anyway. In a just world, when I was the evil one, I wouldn't, but in this current financial world I would definitely not feel bad at all at cheating money, I mean it's what pretty much everyone in the financial sector does already.
Selling MTG card is different though, it's not like a miniscule inflation or a miniscule loss for a huge company if you sell an individual 5 fakes. Maybe if I could buylist them to someone like SCG or a rampant speculator.
Here is the problem I see with proxies and counterfeits (and I do proxy but only for cards I fully intend to purchase or for cards I own but don't want to wear down):
It effects the secondary market. Whether you realize it or not every time someone proxies or uses a counterfeit card (even if "accidentally" bought at a slightly reduced price) they are altering the dynamics of supply and demand.
Right now in the MTG community it isn't widespread enough to make an enormous difference. These Chinese fakes that are starting to become more widespread are a problem (proxies not so much because the market seems to self correct for them).
If nothing is done to address these cards (which WoTC is doing) they could very potentially destroy the secondary market. This in turn will put many LGS that depend on singles sales out of business. This in turn could drive down the profit margin for new MTG products while also limiting distribution options for WoTC. WoTC depends strongly on the success of the LGS as a collective entity (though less now because of Hasbro's connections to big box stores).
When Fallen Empires came out many a LGS went out of business. This resulted because of a combination of poor distribution practices by WoTC and the overall poor quality of that product. It took MTG (and WoTC) awhile to fully recover financially from that release in large part because of the struggles of many of the LGS around the country. Lucky for many this situation occurred during a major upswing in our overall economy otherwise none of us might be playing MTG today.
Look at the recent (now not so recent) collapse of the sports memorabilia market to see how important the small shops and secondary market are to the industry as a whole. Due to counterfeit issues, the general collapse of the economy and over saturation that industry has been gutted compared to what it used to be. Many companies have gone out of business.
If counterfeiting isn't kept in check or if the general attitude I've seen about proxies by some in this thread becomes more prevalent then this industry could be in big trouble.
If counterfeiting isn't kept in check or if the general attitude I've seen about proxies by some in this thread becomes more prevalent then this industry could be in big trouble.
I think commander impacts this a lot less as it is not a tournament format.
Most people I know who play commander buy mainly from the secondary market.
Either way, I'm fine with magic ending when it ends.
I will have the cards I have, and there will be other things to do.
I'm not responsible for the success of their company.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
I suppose it also depends on what you are using them for...
To help define for me Fake - a card that is trying to pass for real, and being used with dishonest intentions
Proxy - A card that is clearly not real and not trying to pass for real(i.e. a printout copy of a card on printer paper) that is used either as a placeholder for a card you own or as a playable substitute for one you do not.
{My opinions}
Trading fake cards - never cool, highly illegal and dishonest
Using print out proxies without owning the cards at home/private playgroup - sure, no problem. Similar to Cockatrice or DVR (or even that MTG app on Google Play), it has a relatively neutral effect on the MTG economy. For some people, they may never buy them, but for other people, it encourages them to play more and invest more, would call it more neutral (but, in all fairness, if the first group of people aren't going to invest with proxies, they wouldn't invest without them either).
Using fakes in tourneys - Not cool, it is lying and dishonest
Using proxies in tourneys - Only when allowed, but who are we kidding, they wouldn't allow that anyway unless it was vintage
Again, though, usually when I play it is with my friends at my house, and we are all pretty chill. None of us get mad at one another, and if someone wants to bring a proxy deck, sure, whatever man, let's play!
Here is my concern... What if you are at an event, legacy, standard, modern something like that and a Judge gave you a game loss or something worse, cause who has extra's of their expense cards. First off what if you didn't know, or what if a judge said it was and he or she was wrong? I think the talk of it will have more effect on tournament players than EDH but an effect will be felt.
While I don't use proxies myself, I actually enjoy when a new player sits down with a deck full of print outs. Usually, the deck will be very powerful and I will lose, but attributing defeat to the power of the printer eases the loss. Defeating a proxy deck means my creation defeated the best possible cards that player could print. There is satisfaction in this.
Right now in the MTG community it isn't widespread enough to make an enormous difference. These Chinese fakes that are starting to become more widespread are a problem (proxies not so much because the market seems to self correct for them).
If nothing is done to address these cards (which WoTC is doing) they could very potentially destroy the secondary market. This in turn will put many LGS that depend on singles sales out of business. This in turn could drive down the profit margin for new MTG products while also limiting distribution options for WoTC. WoTC depends strongly on the success of the LGS as a collective entity (though less now because of Hasbro's connections to big box stores).
Are you referring to the holofoil stamp on rares announced for M15 and beyond when you say WotC is addressing this, or is there something else they're doing?
If counterfeiting isn't kept in check or if the general attitude I've seen about proxies by some in this thread becomes more prevalent then this industry could be in big trouble.
It doesn't seem that this level of counterfeiting can be kept in check directly, so WotC's only option may be to reprint cards that are in high demand. With card prices as high as they are, Wizards is situated to benefit enormously, as they can price these new products to match the current card prices. You can see evidence of this in the $75 price tag of the recently announced Modern Event Deck. (assuming the deck contains expensive cards) I hope they're able to significantly increase availability for modern staples (and other expensive cards not on the reserved list) before Chinese counterfeiters perfect their printing process.
I'm not responsible for the success of their company.
Whut? You are a player, and I am assuming a buyer of MtG cards. In either role, you make actions that directly influence whether MtG is successful or not. As a player, the way you interact with your opponents in a sportsmanlike behavior affects their drive to play the game again. Or, your exciting games draw in onlookers. I don't have to explain why the role of the buyer is important.
And yes, you are a very tiny portion of what makes MtG successful, but ultimately is all up to the players and buyers. If every single one of us had your attitude, MtG would had been over a long time ago.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
Honestly this is a moral question, and I would definitely spend all of it because wealth is already so much based on illicit deals anyway. In a just world, when I was the evil one, I wouldn't, but in this current financial world I would definitely not feel bad at all at cheating money, I mean it's what pretty much everyone in the financial sector does already.
Selling MTG card is different though, it's not like a miniscule inflation or a miniscule loss for a huge company if you sell an individual 5 fakes. Maybe if I could buylist them to someone like SCG or a rampant speculator.
Justifying illegal activities because others do so is why our society is a trash heap.
"The government is ripping me off and my employer is ripping me off so if I steal from them it's justified."
Unless you invent a cure for cancer that also performs oral sex on you while curing said cancer, there's always going to be someone with more money than you. If I play magic with a bio engineer and he has a moat, I don't get to make a moat on my printer because I think I should be allowed the same things that guy has. That's just how it works. Just because Edh is considered a casual format doesn't mean you get to throw the rules out the window whenever they don't work in your favor. Especially if you're breaking the law.
If I play magic with a bio engineer and he has a moat, I don't get to make a moat on my printer because I think I should be allowed the same things that guy has. That's just how it works. Just because Edh is considered a casual format doesn't mean you get to throw the rules out the window whenever they don't work in your favor. Especially if you're breaking the law.
So my play experience is supposed to be lessened for the sole reason that I have less money? This attitude seems awfully bigoted to me.
...I don't get to make a moat on my printer because I think I should be allowed the same things that guy has. That's just how it works.
You do get to make a Moat on your printer. That's just how it works.
Did you mean to say that it shouldn't happen? Morality can be subjective, so I imagine there are many who think that it should happen, that it's inevitable based on the reality of the situation, and that neither Wizards, nor the players involved are directly hurt by it. Or were you arguing about the legality of it?
So my play experience is supposed to be lessened for the sole reason that I have less money? This attitude seems awfully bigoted to me.
That's how life works. If you can't afford to travel the world, you don't get to. There are ways to make it happen (marry rich, get a job that travels, join the military), but the way the real world works... yeah, if you can't afford it you don't get to enjoy it.
I know most of you probably think downloading music and software is acceptable, but it's the same thing. Sure, it's easy enough to do, but it's illegal. Regardless of what people think about the ethics of that, it's still considered theft in the eyes of most legal systems. The creators of the copyrighted material are the ones who get to choose how things are given/sold, not the consumer.
Seriously, name one other thing that's okay to steal the intellectual property that isn't illegal? This is how it works. You are a Have or a Have not, and you need to adjust your preferences, change your means, or steal things. A lot of the players on here and around the world chose to steal.
Edit: I am definitely on the Have Not side of things. But, I have a stupid skill that is MTG related and because people are willing to compensate me for me time, I can afford to play the game pretty well. I will most likely never own any card over $50 that I don't already own. Instead of making one of my own I will simply not own one. It's not that hard and I enjoy the game just fine.
I personally play a collector's edition Gauntlet of Might that sells for about $30 instead of $90. I have another competitive commander deck worth more than $2000. I just don't want to spend $90 to run a card in my casual mono-red deck. If my playgroup ever disagrees with the fact that I'm running that collector edition card (and that's actually the only non-legal card I do play or own), I will just use the $2000 deck instead but I'm not sure they will have much fun playing against it.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
But it is hurting me in a sense. As an artist, if you decided to use my creative property with out my knowledge or permission, I'd be mad.
Being fine with proxies is basically saying you're ok with that kind of behavior. That kind of behavior does and has effected and hurt me.
I tend to want to support the company and businesses that both provide the product and a place to enjoy it, not screw them over because I have some obscure moral ideology I made up to justify my behavior.
Other artists freely give away their work. See Radiohead and many other bands that tour all the time after "giving away" their work.
I have supported Wizards, games shops, etc. How the artists get paid? I don't know. Do you know? Do you know the contracts that are set up for the artists who do work for MTG? I certainly don't.
I still buy singles on the 2nd hand market. Since the printing of Epic Rares and the insane time and money needed to stay relevant in Standard, I've since stopped buying packs.
Also, what about all those kids at college who never played MTG before, saw me playing with a deck that had some proxies in it, and immediately decided they wanted in on some MTG......well this brings us back full circle to the Radiohead statement....
So I really don't care if people are butthurt over me playing proxies. It's nearly impossible to prove it's hurting anyone. Nobody's addressed specifically how the artists are paid, Magic is still being played, and fresh blood still flows into the system.
As long as you aren't printing cards to bring to tournaments, it's rather silly to get mad at someone bc they know how to use a printer, and someone else is more concerned with people paying for cards than actually playing some damn magic.
Other artists freely give away their work. See Radiohead and many other bands that tour all the time after "giving away" their work.
There are people with money freely giving away their money. See Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, George Clooney, Michael Bloomberg, etc. I am sure you wouldn't mind giving me some money since there are other people who freely give away their money
There are people with money freely giving away their money. See Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, George Clooney, Michael Bloomberg, etc. I am sure you wouldn't mind giving me some money since there are other people who freely give away their money
Sure. And you can freely give it right back since you don't mind doing it either ;). Or better yet, maybe the artists and Wizards should start giving me a cut of their sales for every person I've ever introduced to their product. Right?
Let's change it then. I give you a stack of $100 dollar bills and tell you some of them are real, some of them are counterfeit. Do you spend the money? If so, how do you feel about yourself when you do it? You can't tell that some are fake, so are you still breaking the law?
If the bills are indistinguishably the same, as in my example, then they are all real. I spend them. However this probably wouldn't work as there are serial numbers that go with each bill so the more you delve into the money argument, the less it could feasibly happen.
So my play experience is supposed to be lessened for the sole reason that I have less money? This attitude seems awfully bigoted to me.
Oglor, I think you have it backward, your experience is based on your deck, their deck, your skill, and their skill. If they have a moat in a good stuff deck and you win by taking it out with a 5 cent disenchant and blitzing them is that a good or bad experience?
Also I would say this "bigoted attitude" extends to most of life in capitalist countries, should you get to drive the same car as me if you have less money, what about living in the same size house, expensive travel, etc. Everyone decides how to allocated the resources they have line money, time, skill, etc.
If you get in a fight with a trained fighter do you expect to win regardless of their years of training?
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As for proxies being "illegal": AFAIK WotC has never prosecuted people for proxying as long as they were not selling the proxies, even though proxy Vintage (for instance) has been a thing for a long time. The World Championship deck series included blank cards for the express purpose of making your own proxies. So at the minimum WotC must be okay with written proxies, and what matters the most for copyright cases is whether or not the rightsholder cares.
It seems like the more copies that were out there, the greater the supply was (obviously) - which typically depresses prices. This hurts places like SCG, T&T, ABU, CoolStuff the most - and they really need to get with Wizards about it and prepare to make some tough decisions on how to protect their assets and their product.
Incidentally, if you follow the world of stereolithography/3D printing/rapid prototyping, it seems like sights are set (maybe 40+ years out)on doing exactly what you described (molecule-perfect copies) not just of Jaces, but all consumer goods. Many econo-futurists see that being the doorway to living in a post-consumer society. If you think the RIAA/MPAA have their panties in a twist over media, imagine what'll happen when self-replicating fabricators get out into the open and you can cook a Rolex or a pair of nikes in an hour.
Wow, tangent - sorry. The fact is that no one fake card's gonna crash the economy - but often enough, it's as easy to make one as it is ten thousand - and that is dangerous for everyone.
There is no law against drawing a picture and calling it Tarmogoyf and using it with your Magic cards. Its not against any law to write the word Marsh Flats on a piece of paper.
Counterfeit cards and proxies can be different since you dont have to use the original art and all on a proxy.
I occasionally use them to test out cards before I buy them, but never permanently. I have considered using a few for artistic purposes because sometimes they will just print the **** out of an art I hate like Syphon Mind.
To be honest the arguments against it seem really petty to me. I play magic because I like hard won games. The most satisfying games to me are the ones where you are exchanging blow for blow with your opponents and consistently responding to each others' threats. This is why I play magic, and anything that enhances that experience is fine with me.
If that means I pay $80 for my Force of Will while other people have theirs printed I am fine with that.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
Gold bordered cards can be used as proxies in any game that allows proxies. They, in and of themselves, are not illegal because the copyright holder made them. Counterfeit cards are illegal because the actual law says so - not just because WotC says so.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Honestly this is a moral question, and I would definitely spend all of it because wealth is already so much based on illicit deals anyway. In a just world, when I was the evil one, I wouldn't, but in this current financial world I would definitely not feel bad at all at cheating money, I mean it's what pretty much everyone in the financial sector does already.
Selling MTG card is different though, it's not like a miniscule inflation or a miniscule loss for a huge company if you sell an individual 5 fakes. Maybe if I could buylist them to someone like SCG or a rampant speculator.
It effects the secondary market. Whether you realize it or not every time someone proxies or uses a counterfeit card (even if "accidentally" bought at a slightly reduced price) they are altering the dynamics of supply and demand.
Right now in the MTG community it isn't widespread enough to make an enormous difference. These Chinese fakes that are starting to become more widespread are a problem (proxies not so much because the market seems to self correct for them).
If nothing is done to address these cards (which WoTC is doing) they could very potentially destroy the secondary market. This in turn will put many LGS that depend on singles sales out of business. This in turn could drive down the profit margin for new MTG products while also limiting distribution options for WoTC. WoTC depends strongly on the success of the LGS as a collective entity (though less now because of Hasbro's connections to big box stores).
When Fallen Empires came out many a LGS went out of business. This resulted because of a combination of poor distribution practices by WoTC and the overall poor quality of that product. It took MTG (and WoTC) awhile to fully recover financially from that release in large part because of the struggles of many of the LGS around the country. Lucky for many this situation occurred during a major upswing in our overall economy otherwise none of us might be playing MTG today.
Look at the recent (now not so recent) collapse of the sports memorabilia market to see how important the small shops and secondary market are to the industry as a whole. Due to counterfeit issues, the general collapse of the economy and over saturation that industry has been gutted compared to what it used to be. Many companies have gone out of business.
If counterfeiting isn't kept in check or if the general attitude I've seen about proxies by some in this thread becomes more prevalent then this industry could be in big trouble.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I think commander impacts this a lot less as it is not a tournament format.
Most people I know who play commander buy mainly from the secondary market.
Either way, I'm fine with magic ending when it ends.
I will have the cards I have, and there will be other things to do.
I'm not responsible for the success of their company.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
I love u Phil.... that just made my night.
To help define for me
Fake - a card that is trying to pass for real, and being used with dishonest intentions
Proxy - A card that is clearly not real and not trying to pass for real(i.e. a printout copy of a card on printer paper) that is used either as a placeholder for a card you own or as a playable substitute for one you do not.
{My opinions}
Trading fake cards - never cool, highly illegal and dishonest
Using print out proxies without owning the cards at home/private playgroup - sure, no problem. Similar to Cockatrice or DVR (or even that MTG app on Google Play), it has a relatively neutral effect on the MTG economy. For some people, they may never buy them, but for other people, it encourages them to play more and invest more, would call it more neutral (but, in all fairness, if the first group of people aren't going to invest with proxies, they wouldn't invest without them either).
Using fakes in tourneys - Not cool, it is lying and dishonest
Using proxies in tourneys - Only when allowed, but who are we kidding, they wouldn't allow that anyway unless it was vintage
Again, though, usually when I play it is with my friends at my house, and we are all pretty chill. None of us get mad at one another, and if someone wants to bring a proxy deck, sure, whatever man, let's play!
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Are you referring to the holofoil stamp on rares announced for M15 and beyond when you say WotC is addressing this, or is there something else they're doing?
It doesn't seem that this level of counterfeiting can be kept in check directly, so WotC's only option may be to reprint cards that are in high demand. With card prices as high as they are, Wizards is situated to benefit enormously, as they can price these new products to match the current card prices. You can see evidence of this in the $75 price tag of the recently announced Modern Event Deck. (assuming the deck contains expensive cards) I hope they're able to significantly increase availability for modern staples (and other expensive cards not on the reserved list) before Chinese counterfeiters perfect their printing process.
Whut? You are a player, and I am assuming a buyer of MtG cards. In either role, you make actions that directly influence whether MtG is successful or not. As a player, the way you interact with your opponents in a sportsmanlike behavior affects their drive to play the game again. Or, your exciting games draw in onlookers. I don't have to explain why the role of the buyer is important.
And yes, you are a very tiny portion of what makes MtG successful, but ultimately is all up to the players and buyers. If every single one of us had your attitude, MtG would had been over a long time ago.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
Justifying illegal activities because others do so is why our society is a trash heap.
"The government is ripping me off and my employer is ripping me off so if I steal from them it's justified."
Unless you invent a cure for cancer that also performs oral sex on you while curing said cancer, there's always going to be someone with more money than you. If I play magic with a bio engineer and he has a moat, I don't get to make a moat on my printer because I think I should be allowed the same things that guy has. That's just how it works. Just because Edh is considered a casual format doesn't mean you get to throw the rules out the window whenever they don't work in your favor. Especially if you're breaking the law.
I aim to please.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
So my play experience is supposed to be lessened for the sole reason that I have less money? This attitude seems awfully bigoted to me.
You do get to make a Moat on your printer. That's just how it works.
Did you mean to say that it shouldn't happen? Morality can be subjective, so I imagine there are many who think that it should happen, that it's inevitable based on the reality of the situation, and that neither Wizards, nor the players involved are directly hurt by it. Or were you arguing about the legality of it?
That's how life works. If you can't afford to travel the world, you don't get to. There are ways to make it happen (marry rich, get a job that travels, join the military), but the way the real world works... yeah, if you can't afford it you don't get to enjoy it.
I know most of you probably think downloading music and software is acceptable, but it's the same thing. Sure, it's easy enough to do, but it's illegal. Regardless of what people think about the ethics of that, it's still considered theft in the eyes of most legal systems. The creators of the copyrighted material are the ones who get to choose how things are given/sold, not the consumer.
Seriously, name one other thing that's okay to steal the intellectual property that isn't illegal? This is how it works. You are a Have or a Have not, and you need to adjust your preferences, change your means, or steal things. A lot of the players on here and around the world chose to steal.
Edit: I am definitely on the Have Not side of things. But, I have a stupid skill that is MTG related and because people are willing to compensate me for me time, I can afford to play the game pretty well. I will most likely never own any card over $50 that I don't already own. Instead of making one of my own I will simply not own one. It's not that hard and I enjoy the game just fine.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
And this is acceptable because it's a legal product to buy/sell/own.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Other artists freely give away their work. See Radiohead and many other bands that tour all the time after "giving away" their work.
I have supported Wizards, games shops, etc. How the artists get paid? I don't know. Do you know? Do you know the contracts that are set up for the artists who do work for MTG? I certainly don't.
I still buy singles on the 2nd hand market. Since the printing of Epic Rares and the insane time and money needed to stay relevant in Standard, I've since stopped buying packs.
Also, what about all those kids at college who never played MTG before, saw me playing with a deck that had some proxies in it, and immediately decided they wanted in on some MTG......well this brings us back full circle to the Radiohead statement....
So I really don't care if people are butthurt over me playing proxies. It's nearly impossible to prove it's hurting anyone. Nobody's addressed specifically how the artists are paid, Magic is still being played, and fresh blood still flows into the system.
As long as you aren't printing cards to bring to tournaments, it's rather silly to get mad at someone bc they know how to use a printer, and someone else is more concerned with people paying for cards than actually playing some damn magic.
There are people with money freely giving away their money. See Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, George Clooney, Michael Bloomberg, etc. I am sure you wouldn't mind giving me some money since there are other people who freely give away their money
Sure. And you can freely give it right back since you don't mind doing it either ;). Or better yet, maybe the artists and Wizards should start giving me a cut of their sales for every person I've ever introduced to their product. Right?
If the bills are indistinguishably the same, as in my example, then they are all real. I spend them. However this probably wouldn't work as there are serial numbers that go with each bill so the more you delve into the money argument, the less it could feasibly happen.
Oglor, I think you have it backward, your experience is based on your deck, their deck, your skill, and their skill. If they have a moat in a good stuff deck and you win by taking it out with a 5 cent disenchant and blitzing them is that a good or bad experience?
Also I would say this "bigoted attitude" extends to most of life in capitalist countries, should you get to drive the same car as me if you have less money, what about living in the same size house, expensive travel, etc. Everyone decides how to allocated the resources they have line money, time, skill, etc.
If you get in a fight with a trained fighter do you expect to win regardless of their years of training?