I dont think you can compare powered and pauper cubes. Completly different formats. I guess you get a lot more sick stuff to ramp to.
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Edit: Browsing that cubelist, I really wonder why you all running Jungle Lion. That creature is the worst of all 2power 1drops. Maybe a tiny bit better than Mtenda Lion
Edit: Browsing that cubelist, I really wonder why you all running Jungle Lion. That creature is the worst of all 2power 1drops. Maybe a tiny bit better than Mtenda Lion
I'm confused why you think it's so terrible in comparison to other 2 power 1 drop green creatures; Jungle Lion's played because not being able to block is one of the least significant disadvantages attached to 2-power green 1 drops, and aggro / stompy support in cubes isn't just about cramming as many high-impact, under the curve creatures as possible in the 1-2 drop CMC slots. Most of these creatures come with downsides, and those downsides can be very relevant. Similarly, Wild Dogs is played because while it has a significant downside, cycling does a lot to help compensate. In contrast, cards like Pouncing Jaguar or Ghazban Ogre, while featuring better stats, also come with more significant drawbacks that are emphasized especially in a draft / limited format where you can't count on a highly redundant, finely-tuned constructed deck to compensate for the fact that you're playing individually bad cards. This is one example of how "power" in constructed and limited formats can easily diverge. Another example would be Brainstorm, which is insane in legacy but underwhelming at best in a pauper cube.
Unable to block is a huge disadvantage. Its literally only half of a creature.
You can compare its downside to Ghazban Ogre. Its great on the early game, but useless if youre behind on the field. Well the Ogre can at least played and block unless youre behind on life, too.
Thats the same reason the Wild Dogs are bad. Yeah, they can cycle, but that will be the only thing theyre doing, because the body is that bad.
That you cant build or count on a fine tuned deck is simply not true. You will get 45 total playable cards in a cubedraft and you need only 25 to build a 40 card deck. Thats already more consistent than 60 cards btw
The testdeck I posted earlier is a totally legit draft deck out of my cube. Somebody already played almost that deck with success. Again you need luck and skill to do so.
Its funny how you argue about the blocking, while completely ignoring the toughness. Which is its biggest disadvantage. It reads: Cant attack if opp controls a creature. Cant block anyway.
Its funny how you argue about the blocking, while completely ignoring the toughness. Which is its biggest disadvantage. It reads: Cant attack if opp controls a creature. Cant block anyway.
Its funny how you argue about the blocking, while completely ignoring the toughness. Which is its biggest disadvantage. It reads: Cant attack if opp controls a creature. Cant block anyway.
The one toughness really doesn't matter, it's a 1 drop. You shouldn't expect all of your 1 drops to be Isamaru, Hound of Konda. Elite Vanguard, Savannah Lions, and Jackal Pup are still respectable 1 drops that see play in cubes of every level and no one is blocking with them (that's simply not what playing 1 drop aggro creatures is for), which effectively makes Jungle Lion the same card but in a different color/rarity.
Did you really just compared Jungle Lion to Dark Confidant? Or used Mom as an example for fragile creatures?
Of course there are 1 toughness creatures, that are so powerful you still run them. But were talking about a 2/1 cant block creature in a color that offers a lot more cc1 power2 drops, which just happen to be better.
But then, if there are a critical number of powerful 1toughness guys, cards that can handle them getting better. Incube meta changes. So you should add more cards that can handle them like Nausea.
Circle closes here and you get rid off mediocre 1 toughness guys.
Edit: Or you balance around that (lower) powerlevel
Of course there are 1 toughness creatures, that are so powerful you still run them. But were talking about a 2/1 cant block creature in a color that offers a lot more cc1 power2 drops, which just happen to be better..
This statement is just far from true. The cc 1 options that you listed aren't better than Jungle Lion. I know it is your choice/opinion to think otherwise but Jungle Lion is better than Ghazban Ogre, Wild Dogs, and Pouncing Jaguar. Wild Dogs and Ghazban Ogre leave you open to pretty big blowouts from taking 1 damage to the face from the spells you mentioned earlier that also kill your Jungle Lion. However, instead of those spells getting rid of your creature...they steal your creature which is MUCH worse for you. Pouncing Jaguar isn't worth 2 mana and it certainly isn't worth 2 turns worth of your mana. Playing it on turn 1 means you probably won't get a turn 2 play unless you happen to draw another 1 drop, which aren't exactly plentiful at pauper.
That being said, none of these cards even come close to being top of the list for Green 1 drops because having a mana elf will almost always give you more powerful plays than attacking for 2 on turn 2.
most of the effects cant target player or arent fast enough on turn1. Whatevs. I played stompy approaches since back then Weatherlight was released and when later Portal was allowed to be played in tournaments, I was excited for Jungle Lion.
But it was bad, is bad, will never be good.
Of course you want to block with your 1-drops thats what theyre for. Early on deal some damage and then later chump their big dudes to topdeck that [CARD]Lightning Bolt
[/CARD]
If you dont want stompy, fine. But your manalves will almost never be better than Elvish Spirit Guide, when the cube is balanced around whats played in it.
If you dont want stompy, fine. But your manalves will almost never be better than Elvish Spirit Guide, when the cube is balanced around whats played in it.
Ofc hes not playing the other commons because its not a pauper cube m(
Skyshroud Elite is far far better than Tiger when there are enough non basics in the meta. Respected cube or not, its hilarious to think otherwise.
But id prefer were going back to our format and discuss wheter manadudes or Stompy is "better" in paupercubes. And how it affects the incube meta and the other card choices that follow up. I really think this is a breaking point, wheter or not a deck in the cube can goldfish t4
But id prefer were going back to our format and discuss wheter manadudes or Stompy is "better" in paupercubes. And how it affects the incube meta and the other card choices that follow up. I really think this is a breaking point, wheter or not a deck in the cube can goldfish t4
I'd prefer that you not act like there's an objective answer to this. You can have stompy in your cube all you want but I don't want it in mine because I don't think it would make for an interesting draft. I like having cards like the mana dudes that every green drafter wants to pick up because they're very good, and I do not want an insular archetype like stompy where the cards are only good in exactly that deck to be in my cube. I'm sure the deck is really powerful when it comes together, but if two people try to move in on it, how can it not fall flat? I'll stay on the side of consistency and having all my cards be playable in more than one kind of deck, because that's what I want out of my cube.
It's not remotely on the same power level, but I'll compare this to powered cubes that want to support Tinker and Reanimator. Sure it's awesome when it works but sometimes the cards don't come together and players are left with a pile that is no fun for them to play with, sometimes two people move in on it and both are left struggling for playables, and sometimes NOBODY moves in on it and you get these cards like Inkwell Leviathan sitting in the ends of packs when it could instead be something that creates a decision. I don't fault anyone for wanting to include these powerful packages in their format, but I will fault anyone who says that not doing so is wrong. Maybe on a power-level argument, sure, but that is not the only thing that can be gotten out of a cube.
If you want to continue including subpar cards to support a powerful deck that is fine, but I'll stick with the consistent power level of my format because I feel it produces a better drafting experience and certainly one that I and my drafters will enjoy more.
At least with Reanimator and Tinker you can (usually) still back-door your way into an okay UB control build (or similar) if you get half-way through the draft and realize the cards are being cut upstream somewhere. Animate Dead is still a fine card even when you're just using it to recur value dudes rather than a game-ending fatty for example. That's the key to supporting narrower archetypes in cube in my view, having cards that are flexible enough to go in multiple decks even if there is a "synergy deck" where they work best (it's also why I'm not a fan of Storm because most of the cards don't go in other decks, it's an all-or-nothing draft strategy).
Yeah Storm was a better example. I'm thinking of the powered cube I draft most often where Animate Dead and Necromancy are played as value spells but the all-in style cards like Entomb and Buried Alive are eschewed because of what I was trying to describe.
I actually cut the signets because they were so many slots and I wanted green to only have the fixing. Should I bring them back?
I cut them ages ago, and haven't missed them at all. The full set of 10 takes up a lot of space and I've tried to make my colored sections streamlined enough to emphasize two color decks that don't require much fixing to work well. I could maybe see an argument for just including the blue signets, but the full set seems unnecessary.
So, my store is running a Pauper cube night on a semi regular basis using my cube, which is good. What's bad is the first one is tomorrow and I haven't updated since Gatecrash.
What're the cubable commons from Dragon's Maze, M14 and Theros? Sorry to post with a certain lack of finesse, but there's no way I've got time to study it in any real detail.
Here's what I currently have from those three sets in my 450 cube (apologies if I missed anything, I very briefly skimmed through my cubetutor page). I think there are pauper cube set reviews for each of the sets as well in the Articles section of the cube forum.
I'm really surprised by Humphery - you've been banging on about green stompy for ages and yet you absolutely slam one of your best 1 drop options, in Jungle Lion.
Yes, a 2/1 dies to everything. But it's an aggressive creature. You swing in early, they've either got nothing to block with, or some other utility creature they'd rather not let die. It'll also trade with any X/2 blocker.
With your logic, are Daring Skyjek and Blade of the Sixth Pride also awful? No I didn't think so.
So far I tested a lot of cards in my cube and i also tried the lion but it was still a mediocre. Definatly worse than the other options. But maybe its just that bad in my cube bevause i run that much answers to x/1 creatures. The white drops are borderline too because of that and i never draft them for midrange.
Because i balance around the strongest cards and not the weak ones. I dont want to cut strong cards like desert or arc lightning for unable to block creatures. Makes no sense when you aim for power. Besides there are enough 1 drops with toughness ( and power) 2, although they have other downsides. Still 3/3 for G is one of the most efficient creature at common ever printed
Flame jab is sick! Even more in a cube like yours with all those x/1
Then again, you cant look at the cards in a vaccum. They have synergies and form a meta. Certain decks.
You said yourself you aim for random metadecks instead of "forcing" the most powerful ones
And on top of that i even think that my card isolated are better, whip (deathtouch) or trickery might get the axe sometime because they lost some value. But im never going to run trashcards like volcanic hammer wtf?
Compared to the red instants that deal 3 dmg its trash. Why would you fill all slots with the same spell? Doesnt sound very interesting to draft for me. In the end you still only have 1 good deck with the premium spells.
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Edit: Browsing that cubelist, I really wonder why you all running Jungle Lion. That creature is the worst of all 2power 1drops. Maybe a tiny bit better than Mtenda Lion
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I'm confused why you think it's so terrible in comparison to other 2 power 1 drop green creatures; Jungle Lion's played because not being able to block is one of the least significant disadvantages attached to 2-power green 1 drops, and aggro / stompy support in cubes isn't just about cramming as many high-impact, under the curve creatures as possible in the 1-2 drop CMC slots. Most of these creatures come with downsides, and those downsides can be very relevant. Similarly, Wild Dogs is played because while it has a significant downside, cycling does a lot to help compensate. In contrast, cards like Pouncing Jaguar or Ghazban Ogre, while featuring better stats, also come with more significant drawbacks that are emphasized especially in a draft / limited format where you can't count on a highly redundant, finely-tuned constructed deck to compensate for the fact that you're playing individually bad cards. This is one example of how "power" in constructed and limited formats can easily diverge. Another example would be Brainstorm, which is insane in legacy but underwhelming at best in a pauper cube.
You can compare its downside to Ghazban Ogre. Its great on the early game, but useless if youre behind on the field. Well the Ogre can at least played and block unless youre behind on life, too.
Then there is the 1 toughness, I mentioned a few times already. It dies to everything. Each 1/x creature the opp plays makes yours worthless. And there are infinte of effects, too. Like Viridian Longbow, Serrated Arrows, Flame Jab, Electrickery ,Mogg Fanatic, Icatian Javelineers, Holy Light, Fume Spitter, Wail of the Nim. Even green has removal with Sandstorm, Hornet Sting or Leeching Bite. Or blue Psychic Purge
Thats the same reason the Wild Dogs are bad. Yeah, they can cycle, but that will be the only thing theyre doing, because the body is that bad.
That you cant build or count on a fine tuned deck is simply not true. You will get 45 total playable cards in a cubedraft and you need only 25 to build a 40 card deck. Thats already more consistent than 60 cards btw
The testdeck I posted earlier is a totally legit draft deck out of my cube. Somebody already played almost that deck with success. Again you need luck and skill to do so.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Basking Rootwalla, Pouncing Jaguar and especially in powered cubes Wild Nacatl is way better. Jungle Lion is the crap.
Edit: Speaking about powered cubes: Nimble Mongoose
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Lol
?
idk if mungo works well, but its def better than lion...
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
The one toughness really doesn't matter, it's a 1 drop. You shouldn't expect all of your 1 drops to be Isamaru, Hound of Konda. Elite Vanguard, Savannah Lions, and Jackal Pup are still respectable 1 drops that see play in cubes of every level and no one is blocking with them (that's simply not what playing 1 drop aggro creatures is for), which effectively makes Jungle Lion the same card but in a different color/rarity.
Of course there are 1 toughness creatures, that are so powerful you still run them. But were talking about a 2/1 cant block creature in a color that offers a lot more cc1 power2 drops, which just happen to be better.
But then, if there are a critical number of powerful 1toughness guys, cards that can handle them getting better. Incube meta changes. So you should add more cards that can handle them like Nausea.
Circle closes here and you get rid off mediocre 1 toughness guys.
Edit: Or you balance around that (lower) powerlevel
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
This statement is just far from true. The cc 1 options that you listed aren't better than Jungle Lion. I know it is your choice/opinion to think otherwise but Jungle Lion is better than Ghazban Ogre, Wild Dogs, and Pouncing Jaguar. Wild Dogs and Ghazban Ogre leave you open to pretty big blowouts from taking 1 damage to the face from the spells you mentioned earlier that also kill your Jungle Lion. However, instead of those spells getting rid of your creature...they steal your creature which is MUCH worse for you. Pouncing Jaguar isn't worth 2 mana and it certainly isn't worth 2 turns worth of your mana. Playing it on turn 1 means you probably won't get a turn 2 play unless you happen to draw another 1 drop, which aren't exactly plentiful at pauper.
That being said, none of these cards even come close to being top of the list for Green 1 drops because having a mana elf will almost always give you more powerful plays than attacking for 2 on turn 2.
But it was bad, is bad, will never be good.
Of course you want to block with your 1-drops thats what theyre for. Early on deal some damage and then later chump their big dudes to topdeck that [CARD]Lightning Bolt
[/CARD]
If you dont want stompy, fine. But your manalves will almost never be better than Elvish Spirit Guide, when the cube is balanced around whats played in it.
Remembered another card for powercubes: Skyshroud Elite
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
No one plays Skyshroud Elite or Nimble Mongoose in powered cubes. You know what they do play? Multiple copies of Elvish Mystic and Jungle Lion. To your credit there is a Wild Dogs in there but no Ghazban Ogre, Rogue Elephant, Nettle Sentinel, Scythe Tiger or Pouncing Jaguar.
This is a link to one of the most popular/respected powered cubes on MTGSalvation.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=198041
Ofc hes not playing the other commons because its not a pauper cube m(
Skyshroud Elite is far far better than Tiger when there are enough non basics in the meta. Respected cube or not, its hilarious to think otherwise.
But id prefer were going back to our format and discuss wheter manadudes or Stompy is "better" in paupercubes. And how it affects the incube meta and the other card choices that follow up. I really think this is a breaking point, wheter or not a deck in the cube can goldfish t4
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I don't think Elvish Spirit Guide is a common actually. Wish it was.
I'd prefer that you not act like there's an objective answer to this. You can have stompy in your cube all you want but I don't want it in mine because I don't think it would make for an interesting draft. I like having cards like the mana dudes that every green drafter wants to pick up because they're very good, and I do not want an insular archetype like stompy where the cards are only good in exactly that deck to be in my cube. I'm sure the deck is really powerful when it comes together, but if two people try to move in on it, how can it not fall flat? I'll stay on the side of consistency and having all my cards be playable in more than one kind of deck, because that's what I want out of my cube.
It's not remotely on the same power level, but I'll compare this to powered cubes that want to support Tinker and Reanimator. Sure it's awesome when it works but sometimes the cards don't come together and players are left with a pile that is no fun for them to play with, sometimes two people move in on it and both are left struggling for playables, and sometimes NOBODY moves in on it and you get these cards like Inkwell Leviathan sitting in the ends of packs when it could instead be something that creates a decision. I don't fault anyone for wanting to include these powerful packages in their format, but I will fault anyone who says that not doing so is wrong. Maybe on a power-level argument, sure, but that is not the only thing that can be gotten out of a cube.
If you want to continue including subpar cards to support a powerful deck that is fine, but I'll stick with the consistent power level of my format because I feel it produces a better drafting experience and certainly one that I and my drafters will enjoy more.
Level 1 Judge
Yeah Storm was a better example. I'm thinking of the powered cube I draft most often where Animate Dead and Necromancy are played as value spells but the all-in style cards like Entomb and Buried Alive are eschewed because of what I was trying to describe.
Level 1 Judge
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
I cut them ages ago, and haven't missed them at all. The full set of 10 takes up a lot of space and I've tried to make my colored sections streamlined enough to emphasize two color decks that don't require much fixing to work well. I could maybe see an argument for just including the blue signets, but the full set seems unnecessary.
Added additional cards in each color. There probably aren't 10 extra cubeable colorless cards and I'm a fan of larger single color sections anyway.
Here's what I currently have from those three sets in my 450 cube (apologies if I missed anything, I very briefly skimmed through my cubetutor page). I think there are pauper cube set reviews for each of the sets as well in the Articles section of the cube forum.
1 Master of Diversion
1 Celestial Flare
Blue:
1 Omenspeaker
1 Vaporkin
1 Nimbus Naiad
1 Prescient Chimera
1 Benthic Giant
Black:
1 Corpse Hauler
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Read the Bones
1 Deathbellow Raider
1 Riot Piker
1 Minotaur Skullcleaver
1 Ill-Tempered Cyclops
1 Marauding Maulhorn
1 Weapon Surge
1 Lightning Strike
Green:
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Rumbling Baloth
1 Thrashing Mossdog
1 Nessian Asp
1 Vulpine Goliath
1 Feral Invocation
1 Leafcrown Dryad
1 Tithe Drinker
1 Beetleform Mage
1 Nivix Cyclops
1 Viashino Firstblade
So far I tested a lot of cards in my cube and i also tried the lion but it was still a mediocre. Definatly worse than the other options. But maybe its just that bad in my cube bevause i run that much answers to x/1 creatures. The white drops are borderline too because of that and i never draft them for midrange.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Then again, you cant look at the cards in a vaccum. They have synergies and form a meta. Certain decks.
You said yourself you aim for random metadecks instead of "forcing" the most powerful ones
And on top of that i even think that my card isolated are better, whip (deathtouch) or trickery might get the axe sometime because they lost some value. But im never going to run trashcards like volcanic hammer wtf?
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
Edit: you dont even run incinerate
/discussion
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t