Hey guys, I am a newbie that has not played in a long time. I am building a casual Legacy deck based off of Dragonstorm. I realize it is not nearly the best Storm combo around, but please critique and help me optimize!
I realize I should probably be main-boarding some hate. Looking for suggestions of what to move in and out. Also trying to figure out a better secondary target for Burning Wish, currently it's Rite of Flame which is why there's one sideboarded.
I would suggest past in flames or thoughtseize for about the same reason. Thoughtseize can let you clear problem cards and gain info for when to go for it. PiF would be similar in that if you get stopped you still have the fuel to try again.
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First thing is how you're going to find Dragonstorm. You need some card drawing engine, otherwise you'll be durdling around waiting to draw what you need. Try running some Faithless Looting, Night's Whisper or even Sign in Blood.
And about protection: first you need to be sure your deck is good enough. Duress a Force of Will will not help if that means your combo will set back for 2 turns because you had to sac a Lotus Petal or Manamorphose to get black. After you get nice consistency, then you can start playing around hate.
First thing is how you're going to find Dragonstorm. You need some card drawing engine, otherwise you'll be durdling around waiting to draw what you need. Try running some Faithless Looting, Night's Whisper or even Sign in Blood.
I am apprehensive about adding too much card draw due to the possibilities of drawing a Dragon or another Dragonstorm / Burning Wish. I thought Manamorphose and Gitaxian Probes, along with the Fetches would be just the right amount of deck acceleration.
I am in agreement that Rite of Flame on the wishboard isn't good. I am having a hard time understanding potential scenarios where Past in Flames would even be playable, however. If my ramp is stopped/countered, how am I going to get a 4 mana card (technically 5 needed to restart the ramp) draw out on the board to restart the combo? I would consider wishboarding it also, but that just tacks on another turn and/or 2 mana. I would like to think that the better solution to FoWs and such would be to hate them out turn 1 instead of having added insurance.
And about protection: first you need to be sure your deck is good enough. Duress a Force of Will will not help if that means your combo will set back for 2 turns because you had to sac a Lotus Petal or Manamorphose to get black. After you get nice consistency, then you can start playing around hate.
Lotus Petal and manamorphose wouldn't be necessary for a Duress/Thoughtseize turn 1 as all of my lands produce black mana.
I really do appreciate the advice and apologize if my response sounds argumentative. I am just beginning to learn the format.
I would remove pyrectic ritual and desperate ritual. they just don't add enough mana. I could almost make the same argument for lotus petal (I keep thinking lion's eye diamond myself). Now, with all those gone, you could then add in 4 infernal tutor to just go fetch what you need, whether it's another ritual or to empty your hand and go get the dragonstorm finish. It seems a good idea in BR dragonstorm.
Yeah, just realized that if you draw some dragon things get ugly.
past in flames is not to get around counters, it simply gives more consistency since you could replay some cards
To make a combo you need to set clear what you need to win:
- 4 storm count
- 8R mana
- dragonstorm
- no more than 1 dragon on hand
Now you start checking the conditions
-Since you need only 4 storm, getting storm count isn't a problem
-To achieve 9 mana you'll need a lot of mana ramp, I'm thinking even on dwarven ruins, sandstone needle, ebon stronghold and peat bog. Maybe even lake of the dead. This helps getting treshold for cabal ritual. Another way is running rain of filth
-with burning wish you get 7 copies of dragonstorm to play. With just the 2 cantrips could be enoughh, but you'll have to test if you can goldfish consistenly
-you could try running more dragons, but I think 5 is ok, since even if you don't win on the spot, at least you kill them next turn.
I was casual-playing last night and was getting consistent turn 3 kills using the original decklist minus the Gitaxian Probes which are on their way in the mail.
I would remove pyrectic ritual and desperate ritual. they just don't add enough mana. I could almost make the same argument for lotus petal (I keep thinking lion's eye diamond myself). Now, with all those gone, you could then add in 4 infernal tutor to just go fetch what you need, whether it's another ritual or to empty your hand and go get the dragonstorm finish. It seems a good idea in BR dragonstorm.
Infernal Tutor seems like a solid suggestion. I've been thinking a lot on that one. In regards to Lion's Eye Diamond, can it be activated while Tutoring on an empty hand? Otherwise how could it be used in this deck?
I agree Pyretic Ritual is pretty much trash. Desperate Ritual is pretty decent if you can get 2 in hand, which happens every now and then.
Yeah, just realized that if you draw some dragon things get ugly.
past in flames is not to get around counters, it simply gives more consistency since you could replay some cards
To make a combo you need to set clear what you need to win:
- 4 storm count
- 8R mana
- dragonstorm
- no more than 1 dragon on hand
Now you start checking the conditions
-Since you need only 4 storm, getting storm count isn't a problem
-To achieve 9 mana you'll need a lot of mana ramp, I'm thinking even on dwarven ruins, sandstone needle, ebon stronghold and peat bog. Maybe even lake of the dead. This helps getting treshold for cabal ritual. Another way is running rain of filth
-with burning wish you get 7 copies of dragonstorm to play. With just the 2 cantrips could be enoughh, but you'll have to test if you can goldfish consistenly
-you could try running more dragons, but I think 5 is ok, since even if you don't win on the spot, at least you kill them next turn.
I only need 3 dragons to win on the spot if I fetch Karrthus, doing 10 damage with Hellkites plus another 17 from combat with Haste. This has actually made me consider running 4 dragons total instead of 5 (3 hellkites and Karrthus).
The lands sandstone needle & peat bog interest me but heavily diminish chances of turn 1 kills and mana fixing, but would probably make turn 3 much more consistent.
The play about LED and Infernal Tutor is to get LED on the table, play infernal tutor. While tutor is on the stack you blow up LED and get the 3 mana for whatever you will use and may search for anything since you will have no cards in hand.
About the Karrthus I guess I would rather get 2 Karrthus and 3 Hellkites, since the only possible combinations to get to 20 damage in one play is by getting 2 Hellkites and 1 Karrthus or 4 Hellkites. I think the first option is pretty easier to get
Searched for a deck on this topic, this is the most recently-discussed one.
This deck can theoretically goldfish a turn-1 win, although you need a nearly perfect hand for it. 4 Dark Rituals plus a Mountain/Swamp and Lotus Petal (or plus a Simian Spirit Guide and a Swamp). Can also be done with 4x Rite of Flame without the Lotus Petal, and probably a few combinations of those and Seething Song, since Rite of Flame x4 is 11 red mana alone.
While that dream would be nice, it's probably better to plan for a turn 3-4 win and try and control the game the first couple turns. You don't need as much ramp this way (you also only need a storm count of 2, since Karrthus + Atarka is all it takes). Thoughtseize and Force of Will can help control the game, while Ponder/Brainstorm can help filter the cards in hand (Brainstorm also helps to put dragons from hand back into the library). Personal Tutor is an interesting choice for the deck as well, helping you to get Dragonstorm, or if you already have one, you can fish up a Seething Song. If you play 4x Dragonstorm, ramp cards, and 2x each of Karrthus and Atarka as your only dragons, you have a lot of room left for control cards.
If you do go blue, then I would think that brainstorm is the card you want there. This is primarily because of the ability to put dragons back. However, I would immediately cut gitaxian probe and substitute in a black discard spell. Some combination of thoughtseize, duress, inquisition of kozilek, or cabal therapy makes sense here. You need BIG mana rituals, but not a lot of storm, to win with dragonstorm. The black discard gives the same information of gitaxian probe with disruption added.
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Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
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4 Burning Wish
3 Rite of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
2 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blood Crypt
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Dragonstorm
1 Rite of Flame
1 Geosurge
1 Utvara Hellkite
1 Hellkite Tyrant
1 Rorix Bladewing
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Duress
1 Tormod's Crypt
I realize I should probably be main-boarding some hate. Looking for suggestions of what to move in and out. Also trying to figure out a better secondary target for Burning Wish, currently it's Rite of Flame which is why there's one sideboarded.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
Rite of Flame on the wishboard seems just bad. I mean, Past in Flames would be a much better choice (if you run Past in Flames just note that Increasing Vengeance becomes very nice too).
And about protection: first you need to be sure your deck is good enough. Duress a Force of Will will not help if that means your combo will set back for 2 turns because you had to sac a Lotus Petal or Manamorphose to get black. After you get nice consistency, then you can start playing around hate.
I am apprehensive about adding too much card draw due to the possibilities of drawing a Dragon or another Dragonstorm / Burning Wish. I thought Manamorphose and Gitaxian Probes, along with the Fetches would be just the right amount of deck acceleration.
I am in agreement that Rite of Flame on the wishboard isn't good. I am having a hard time understanding potential scenarios where Past in Flames would even be playable, however. If my ramp is stopped/countered, how am I going to get a 4 mana card (technically 5 needed to restart the ramp) draw out on the board to restart the combo? I would consider wishboarding it also, but that just tacks on another turn and/or 2 mana. I would like to think that the better solution to FoWs and such would be to hate them out turn 1 instead of having added insurance.
Lotus Petal and manamorphose wouldn't be necessary for a Duress/Thoughtseize turn 1 as all of my lands produce black mana.
I really do appreciate the advice and apologize if my response sounds argumentative. I am just beginning to learn the format.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
past in flames is not to get around counters, it simply gives more consistency since you could replay some cards
To make a combo you need to set clear what you need to win:
- 4 storm count
- 8R mana
- dragonstorm
- no more than 1 dragon on hand
Now you start checking the conditions
-Since you need only 4 storm, getting storm count isn't a problem
-To achieve 9 mana you'll need a lot of mana ramp, I'm thinking even on dwarven ruins, sandstone needle, ebon stronghold and peat bog. Maybe even lake of the dead. This helps getting treshold for cabal ritual. Another way is running rain of filth
-with burning wish you get 7 copies of dragonstorm to play. With just the 2 cantrips could be enoughh, but you'll have to test if you can goldfish consistenly
-you could try running more dragons, but I think 5 is ok, since even if you don't win on the spot, at least you kill them next turn.
I was casual-playing last night and was getting consistent turn 3 kills using the original decklist minus the Gitaxian Probes which are on their way in the mail.
Infernal Tutor seems like a solid suggestion. I've been thinking a lot on that one. In regards to Lion's Eye Diamond, can it be activated while Tutoring on an empty hand? Otherwise how could it be used in this deck?
I agree Pyretic Ritual is pretty much trash. Desperate Ritual is pretty decent if you can get 2 in hand, which happens every now and then.
I only need 3 dragons to win on the spot if I fetch Karrthus, doing 10 damage with Hellkites plus another 17 from combat with Haste. This has actually made me consider running 4 dragons total instead of 5 (3 hellkites and Karrthus).
The lands sandstone needle & peat bog interest me but heavily diminish chances of turn 1 kills and mana fixing, but would probably make turn 3 much more consistent.
About the Karrthus I guess I would rather get 2 Karrthus and 3 Hellkites, since the only possible combinations to get to 20 damage in one play is by getting 2 Hellkites and 1 Karrthus or 4 Hellkites. I think the first option is pretty easier to get
This deck can theoretically goldfish a turn-1 win, although you need a nearly perfect hand for it. 4 Dark Rituals plus a Mountain/Swamp and Lotus Petal (or plus a Simian Spirit Guide and a Swamp). Can also be done with 4x Rite of Flame without the Lotus Petal, and probably a few combinations of those and Seething Song, since Rite of Flame x4 is 11 red mana alone.
While that dream would be nice, it's probably better to plan for a turn 3-4 win and try and control the game the first couple turns. You don't need as much ramp this way (you also only need a storm count of 2, since Karrthus + Atarka is all it takes). Thoughtseize and Force of Will can help control the game, while Ponder/Brainstorm can help filter the cards in hand (Brainstorm also helps to put dragons from hand back into the library). Personal Tutor is an interesting choice for the deck as well, helping you to get Dragonstorm, or if you already have one, you can fish up a Seething Song. If you play 4x Dragonstorm, ramp cards, and 2x each of Karrthus and Atarka as your only dragons, you have a lot of room left for control cards.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!