First off: THANK YOU FOR ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THE SB WITH SPECIFICS!!!
Now, a few questions here: Why take out Breakthrough? I always here ppl talking about how they take the BT out first, or cut the 4th one for something else... I've always felt that BT is the key to going off... I mean, yes, all will draw you 2+ (Careful Study & Faithless Looting), but with BT, you get to really dredge. I've always found that if you lead with your CS / FL, you get that 1-2 dredgers in the yard, and with BT you go off... Why would you/anyone go there first with the cuts?
Also, what are some specific cards in these matchups that get Claimed or Chained?
I haven't seen Unmask in the board of most ppl's decks. I like it... Is this substituted with Iona, Shield of Emeria for the most part? Combo and Control get this girl out as soon as possible and either win off it, or keep dredging on subsequant (spelling?) turns to add more attack to the group? Is that basically how things play out with Iona?
So, basically tribal matchups and heavy aggro decks (decks w/ Goyf & True-Name Nemesis)?
Thanks again... Keep the SB talk going!!!
-Yawg
I apologize for making that post and then not following up, between the weather and work I haven't access to the internet for more than about 10 minutes at a time.
Breakthrough is worse postboard because you generally need to grind out games vs non-combo, and breakthrough can really just set you up to be blown out if you don't hit the necessary targets. Removing it basically just increases your resiliency. LED will allow for the same blowouts, but you get a little more control over it, and it doesn't cost mana.
Normally, yes, Iona is in this spot. I don't like her as much in the role, though, because she is the end result of the same process that is already too slow. You are already trying to DR something big, and griselbrand (and usually FKZ) will allow you to win on the spot. Why would you want to be simply returning a creature that locks the opponent down? I really wish these slots were just Cabal Therapy 5-6. Norn is different, because the fair decks have so much disruption you may be unable to combo them effectively. In that case, locking the opponent down and making 4/4 zombies is HUGE.
The creature decks I would be aiming to have that plan against would be: Fish, (most) Delver variants, BUG, Jund, goblins and maverick. The plan is less good against the Blade variants, though firestorm is still fine (it still gets around counterspells)
I respect that people like the feeling of safety with the Bloodghast/Paradise version of the deck, but I despise Paradise, and Dakmor Salvage is even worse. We may eventually be pushed to that spectrum, but for now I will continue to win my matches with Ichorid.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
Don't forget Memory's Journey can also be used as anti-graveyard on your opponent (reanimator, 42 lands, etc)
I like putting two Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard because in my meta many players play storm and the only way I can beat them is to go off faster without getting hit by their duress. It's also a good sideboard against Grindstone or Helm of Obedience combo which is very present in my meta.
I didn't even realize you can use Journey on the offensive vs other combos... Same goes with Leyline. I'm so used to SBing against SB hate that I don't realize I should also board against other decks, especially combo decks... Thanks.
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Breakthrough is worse postboard because you generally need to grind out games vs non-combo...
I can def see where Breakthrough can be taken out in those long game matchups... I'm going to assume those matchups are the same ones you'd want Iona in for. Control decks that can neuter your 'one swing' win, and want to take your, now, crappy aggro reanimator deck into the long game. Am I right in that assessment?
With Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, are these the guys that Pithing Needle are boarded in for in the decks that run Needle? I was assuming these two and Engineered Explosives, Relic & the rest like that. Is it worth it to put Needle in vs those two creatures or even care about them, or is it better to just play around them?
I respect that people like the feeling of safety with the Bloodghast/Paradise version of the deck, but I despise Paradise, and Dakmor Salvage is even worse. We may eventually be pushed to that spectrum, but for now I will continue to win my matches with Ichorid.
I'm not a fan of Paradise either, but I've been looking to add a land or two to the standard 12... I've felt that the land consistancy is lacking a bit... What do you think would be a better land for that 1 or 2, Undiscovered Paradise or Tainted Citadel? On one hand, you lightning bolt yourself (which can add up with the other painlands) each use, which would be rotten if that's the only land in your opening 7; on the other hand, you have a land that will slow you up by having to replay it next turn...
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
I can def see where Breakthrough can be taken out in those long game matchups... I'm going to assume those matchups are the same ones you'd want Iona in for. Control decks that can neuter your 'one swing' win, and want to take your, now, crappy aggro reanimator deck into the long game. Am I right in that assessment?
With Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, are these the guys that Pithing Needle are boarded in for in the decks that run Needle? I was assuming these two and Engineered Explosives, Relic & the rest like that. Is it worth it to put Needle in vs those two creatures or even care about them, or is it better to just play around them?
I'm not a fan of Paradise either, but I've been looking to add a land or two to the standard 12... I've felt that the land consistancy is lacking a bit... What do you think would be a better land for that 1 or 2, Undiscovered Paradise or Tainted Citadel? On one hand, you lightning bolt yourself (which can add up with the other painlands) each use, which would be rotten if that's the only land in your opening 7; on the other hand, you have a land that will slow you up by having to replay it next turn...
-Yawg
Iona is normally there vs combo and control, though you never cut breakthrough vs combo. It's already a tough matchup for you, and you don't want to slow down. I cut breakthrough because these decks will generally be beaten best by just going DDD, grinding out the games with ichorid. They will have plenty of counters for your returns, so unless you can sneak one through somehow, you just want to run them out of resources. Narcomoeba does wonders as a 1/1 flyer in these matches. also, don't be afraid to just cast Golgari thugs if you get the chance.
Pithing needle has to be in your opener to be good. This is true of a lot of our SB cards, but most of them are higher impact. Needling a Crypt or Relic is just bad, because your opponent would need some number greater than 2 of these to beat you, so you should be able to beat their normal draw anyway. Deathrite is not even a threat to our plan as long as we don't give them 2+ turns of breathing room. Scavenging ooze is even slower to get going, though a fully armed and operational one (3+mana) is usually just game over. Firestorm deals with both of these cards, and everything else they have played so far, and is a discard outlet, and will deal 4-5 to the face.
If you really feel the need for 14-15 lands, make them Tarnished Citadel. There are exactly 2 matchups where the 3 damage matters: Burn and Goblins. As long as you aren't sitting at the 0-2 tables, you should be fine (kidding, but these are really fringe decks that are not so hot in the current metagame). Merfolk will take advantage of the damage to yourself maybe 1 game in 10. The way we normally lose is "wow, grafdigger's cage, tormod's crypt, AND double deathrite? Yeah, that might actually be enough." We don't lose to damage, we lose to disruption.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
With 10 rainbow lands, I have great chance to cast Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, sometimes Cabal Therapy in T1 and sometimes in T2. Yes, i don't play with Lion's Eye Diamond.
I have the money to buy it, but I prefer the more grind deck, and not "all in". Between us: if the LED does not come in your hand on T1, you're basically playing "Dredge LEDLess", and i love Tireless Tribe !
The splash damage from Tarnished Citadel never worried me and never was the cause of me losing a game. Like the friend above, we lose to disruption and not damage.
I'm satisfied with my current deck list (and slowly pimp it, 32 foil cards yet).
Edit: Tanks falamin. I wrote manaless with LEDLess in my mind. Brain...
Between us: if the LED does not come in your hand on T1, you're basically playing "Dredge Manaless", and i love Tireless Tribe !
I really love tireless tribe, but the above statement isn't entirely accurate. I ran LEDless until faithless was printed, as before it really was a question of "All-in vs grind it out." Faithless, however, has made it so that in the majority of situations, there is no downside to LED vs Tribe. Also, not having LED in your opening hand does not make the deck manaless, it makes it LEDless. Tribe has to be in your opener to be useful as well.
That said, I still think LEDless is a valid strategy for MTGO and small events, but I don't want to play against good players in a large event (GP's, etc) without a trump card against combo, like LED.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
I'm torn wether to run nature's claim or ancient grudge. My meta is helbent on grafdiggers cage for some reason. So I'm leaning towards grudge so I can dredge and still hit my narcomeobas
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Currently playing in Modern: BBB8Rack
Currently Playing in Legacy:
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I'm torn wether to run nature's claim or ancient grudge. My meta is helbent on grafdiggers cage for some reason. So I'm leaning towards grudge so I can dredge and still hit my narcomeobas
Grafdigger's Cage shuts off Narcomoeba...
I prefer Nature's Claim so you can also hit Leylines and RiP.
Went to legacy at my local store last night. Went 3-0, but very unimpressed with the way my deck was functioning. Making changes, mostly putting the Putrid Imps back in. Need them for ichorid food too much.
Do you guys think 4 or 3 leylines is good? I kind of want to drop it for a third reanimator target or another firestorm.
If your meta is actually storm, then DR Griselbrand/FKZ is a good option. Delver is so easy, you just need to make sure you have outs to Grafdigger's Cage. Would recommend like so:
The big thing is to prioritize accurate hand disruption Vs storm Blind call Dark ritual most of the time, because it will kill you more often than any other card.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
Hey guys, im planning on going to a big tourny here soon. And trying to get this dredge deck done.
Im mostly following Drew Tunison build from his top 8 gp.
Im not sure how I feel about gix probes though.
Honestly, probe is kind of a crutch. You don't really need it if you understand the legacy metagame. You can narrow what deck your opponent is playing down to 2-3 decks just by his or her first land drop. I tried tunison's dredge a fair bit, and it does work, but it seems tailored to a certain playstyle. I would totally suggest cutting 4 probes for 3 firestorm and 1 tarnished citadel.
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That is totally incorrect. We only go all-in when there is no other way to beat the opponent, or when the way is obviously clear. Otherwise, we should be acting like a disruptive, resilient aggro deck.
However, if you are going to go through all the hard work of triggering bloodghasts, take out bridges. They are fairly dead cards when you have no ichorids. Jam in 4 gemstone mine and hope that you can get there.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
How important is lions eye diamond? It's theoretically less stable than ledless dredge but the only dredge that wins tourneys has led, and maybe manaless once, should I invest in LEDs? Or does it make that much of a difference
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So two Opalescence and a Humility walk into a bar, I forget the rest of the joke but your sanctioned judge is a scrub.
How important is lions eye diamond? It's theoretically less stable than ledless dredge but the only dredge that wins tourneys has led, and maybe manaless once, should I invest in LEDs? Or does it make that much of a difference
I would. Right now I'm running Led-less, ONLY because of $$. Think about it, it's better to have them and not run them, than to want to run them and don't have them... I feel like the explosive nature of this deck is the key. The more explosive the better. You don't need the LED, but if you can get them, why not get them.
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
How important is lions eye diamond? It's theoretically less stable than ledless dredge but the only dredge that wins tourneys has led, and maybe manaless once, should I invest in LEDs? Or does it make that much of a difference
You can play the deck either way, but it is much more competition-ready with LEDs. I have played the deck both ways and prefer LED over LEDless. It adds so much speed and flexibility although, played incorrectly, can lead to unfavorable blowouts. There are definitely occasions where playing your LED turn one is a poor choice. You'll get comfortable with when to go full throttle, when to dial it back, and when to slow roll.
You have very little game against Storm if you don't have LEDs. OmniShow will outrace you a good amount of the time too. I would perhaps call LEDless Dredge more stable/consistent. I know a playset of LED isn't cheap. Would you use them in any other decks?
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LED's are totally worth it, because if you went into a street race with nitrous and didn't need it, isn't that better than not having the option and needing it to keep up? This is the argument for LED's that will stand as long as sneak and show, reanimator, and storm are viable decks. Also, LED is the trump card in the dredge mirror.
Yes, it can lead to blowouts, but careful, correct play makes them basically non-issues.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
Any thoughts on my build: standard lazer main. Need help with the side. What would be a good side going into a blind meta. I figure firestorm for drs/ooze decks, claim and vapor for anti-hate, and the dread returns/iona for the combo match ups.
Any thoughts on my build: standard lazer main. Need help with the side. What would be a good side going into a blind meta. I figure firestorm for drs/ooze decks, claim and vapor for anti-hate, and the dread returns/iona for the combo match ups.
I've said this before, but I really hate Iona in the combo matchups. I would prefer to just do my thing with more disruption than start warping my deck with a plan that could already be too slow. Since we can't run 8 therapy, I would suggest throwing in Unmask in those 3 slots.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
I've said this before, but I really hate Iona in the combo matchups. I would prefer to just do my thing with more disruption than start warping my deck with a plan that could already be too slow. Since we can't run 8 therapy, I would suggest throwing in Unmask in those 3 slots.
So, You're suggesting that after boarding against control, to use Therapies and Unmasks to grind out your opponent's hand. Removing their control elements then 'go off' with your dredge for the win, rather than dredge for Iona and win that way? I'm not at all condemning that tactic, only confirming it. I've been trying to piece together a sideboard and up until now, have been leery with the Iona avenue. Have you tested Unmasks? Have they worked for you?
Also, was wondering about Leyline of the Void... I've seen it in lots of decks, but didn't know if they were boarded in the same way as years ago. I used to board them in vs the mirror or against decks that purposefully ran creatures that sacrificed themselves (thus negating an opponents creature hitting the yard, removing all my Bridges). Are Leylines still used for that reason, or are there matchups that I'm missing that Leyline is good against?
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
So, You're suggesting that after boarding against control, to use Therapies and Unmasks to grind out your opponent's hand. Removing their control elements then 'go off' with your dredge for the win, rather than dredge for Iona and win that way?
-Yawg
Exactly. I have been using 3 in my board for a while now, and they are a really smooth, effective method of fighting back against decks that are difficult to race, such as Sneak and Show and Storm. Unmask also has the Gitaxian Probe effect of giving us deadly accurate therapies. If your opponent cannot play anything relevant, we don't need a 7/7 angel, 2 3/1s and some assorted 1/1's and 2/2's will get the job done.
Also, was wondering about Leyline of the Void... I've seen it in lots of decks, but didn't know if they were boarded in the same way as years ago. I used to board them in vs the mirror or against decks that purposefully ran creatures that sacrificed themselves (thus negating an opponents creature hitting the yard, removing all my Bridges). Are Leylines still used for that reason, or are there matchups that I'm missing that Leyline is good against?
Leyline is good vs decks like that, the main reason I keep my 3-4 in there is that the mirror is tough without one, and reanimator is nearly unwinnable otherwise. As a curiosity, it is very useful against Past in Flames decks.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
I'm using this list (essentially netdecked, but you know hey w/e) and I was trying to think of a good SB for this against a heavy Stoneblade meta with some reanimator and delver decks. I was thinking:
I apologize for making that post and then not following up, between the weather and work I haven't access to the internet for more than about 10 minutes at a time.
Breakthrough is worse postboard because you generally need to grind out games vs non-combo, and breakthrough can really just set you up to be blown out if you don't hit the necessary targets. Removing it basically just increases your resiliency. LED will allow for the same blowouts, but you get a little more control over it, and it doesn't cost mana.
Generally you want to have chain VS yixlid Jailer, leyline of the void, and it isn't awful to have against ensnaring bridge and occasionally scavenging ooze, deathrite shaman, and grafdigger's cage. Obviously you would prefer to simply outplay those creatures and claim the cage, but Chain will do the trick. Claim is much more powerful, but harder to cast. You want to be able to claim Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage, and the occasional Relic of Progenitus if you can catch them with their pants down.
Normally, yes, Iona is in this spot. I don't like her as much in the role, though, because she is the end result of the same process that is already too slow. You are already trying to DR something big, and griselbrand (and usually FKZ) will allow you to win on the spot. Why would you want to be simply returning a creature that locks the opponent down? I really wish these slots were just Cabal Therapy 5-6. Norn is different, because the fair decks have so much disruption you may be unable to combo them effectively. In that case, locking the opponent down and making 4/4 zombies is HUGE.
The creature decks I would be aiming to have that plan against would be: Fish, (most) Delver variants, BUG, Jund, goblins and maverick. The plan is less good against the Blade variants, though firestorm is still fine (it still gets around counterspells)
I respect that people like the feeling of safety with the Bloodghast/Paradise version of the deck, but I despise Paradise, and Dakmor Salvage is even worse. We may eventually be pushed to that spectrum, but for now I will continue to win my matches with Ichorid.
I didn't even realize you can use Journey on the offensive vs other combos... Same goes with Leyline. I'm so used to SBing against SB hate that I don't realize I should also board against other decks, especially combo decks... Thanks.
I can def see where Breakthrough can be taken out in those long game matchups... I'm going to assume those matchups are the same ones you'd want Iona in for. Control decks that can neuter your 'one swing' win, and want to take your, now, crappy aggro reanimator deck into the long game. Am I right in that assessment?
With Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, are these the guys that Pithing Needle are boarded in for in the decks that run Needle? I was assuming these two and Engineered Explosives, Relic & the rest like that. Is it worth it to put Needle in vs those two creatures or even care about them, or is it better to just play around them?
I'm not a fan of Paradise either, but I've been looking to add a land or two to the standard 12... I've felt that the land consistancy is lacking a bit... What do you think would be a better land for that 1 or 2, Undiscovered Paradise or Tainted Citadel? On one hand, you lightning bolt yourself (which can add up with the other painlands) each use, which would be rotten if that's the only land in your opening 7; on the other hand, you have a land that will slow you up by having to replay it next turn...
-Yawg
Iona is normally there vs combo and control, though you never cut breakthrough vs combo. It's already a tough matchup for you, and you don't want to slow down. I cut breakthrough because these decks will generally be beaten best by just going DDD, grinding out the games with ichorid. They will have plenty of counters for your returns, so unless you can sneak one through somehow, you just want to run them out of resources. Narcomoeba does wonders as a 1/1 flyer in these matches. also, don't be afraid to just cast Golgari thugs if you get the chance.
Pithing needle has to be in your opener to be good. This is true of a lot of our SB cards, but most of them are higher impact. Needling a Crypt or Relic is just bad, because your opponent would need some number greater than 2 of these to beat you, so you should be able to beat their normal draw anyway. Deathrite is not even a threat to our plan as long as we don't give them 2+ turns of breathing room. Scavenging ooze is even slower to get going, though a fully armed and operational one (3+mana) is usually just game over. Firestorm deals with both of these cards, and everything else they have played so far, and is a discard outlet, and will deal 4-5 to the face.
If you really feel the need for 14-15 lands, make them Tarnished Citadel. There are exactly 2 matchups where the 3 damage matters: Burn and Goblins. As long as you aren't sitting at the 0-2 tables, you should be fine (kidding, but these are really fringe decks that are not so hot in the current metagame). Merfolk will take advantage of the damage to yourself maybe 1 game in 10. The way we normally lose is "wow, grafdigger's cage, tormod's crypt, AND double deathrite? Yeah, that might actually be enough." We don't lose to damage, we lose to disruption.
My list:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
Creatures (28)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
With 10 rainbow lands, I have great chance to cast Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, sometimes Cabal Therapy in T1 and sometimes in T2. Yes, i don't play with Lion's Eye Diamond.
I have the money to buy it, but I prefer the more grind deck, and not "all in". Between us: if the LED does not come in your hand on T1, you're basically playing "Dredge LEDLess", and i love Tireless Tribe !
The splash damage from Tarnished Citadel never worried me and never was the cause of me losing a game. Like the friend above, we lose to disruption and not damage.
I'm satisfied with my current deck list (and slowly pimp it, 32 foil cards yet).
Edit: Tanks falamin. I wrote manaless with LEDLess in my mind. Brain...
I really love tireless tribe, but the above statement isn't entirely accurate. I ran LEDless until faithless was printed, as before it really was a question of "All-in vs grind it out." Faithless, however, has made it so that in the majority of situations, there is no downside to LED vs Tribe. Also, not having LED in your opening hand does not make the deck manaless, it makes it LEDless. Tribe has to be in your opener to be useful as well.
That said, I still think LEDless is a valid strategy for MTGO and small events, but I don't want to play against good players in a large event (GP's, etc) without a trump card against combo, like LED.
Currently playing in Modern:
BBB8Rack
Currently Playing in Legacy:
Foil BELCHER
"Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake"
Grafdigger's Cage shuts off Narcomoeba...
I prefer Nature's Claim so you can also hit Leylines and RiP.
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Currently playing in Modern:
BBB8Rack
Currently Playing in Legacy:
Foil BELCHER
"Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake"
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Ashen Rider
1 Griselbrand
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
I have:
2 firestorm
3 nature's claim
1 wispmare
1 ingot chewer
2 dread return
2 griselbrand
1 flamekin zealot
Do you guys think 4 or 3 leylines is good? I kind of want to drop it for a third reanimator target or another firestorm.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
Currently playing in Modern:
BBB8Rack
Currently Playing in Legacy:
Foil BELCHER
"Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake"
If your meta is actually storm, then DR Griselbrand/FKZ is a good option. Delver is so easy, you just need to make sure you have outs to Grafdigger's Cage. Would recommend like so:
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Firestorm
The big thing is to prioritize accurate hand disruption Vs storm Blind call Dark ritual most of the time, because it will kill you more often than any other card.
Im mostly following Drew Tunison build from his top 8 gp.
Im not sure how I feel about gix probes though.
2 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
4 Gitaxian Probe
I think I should have some number of Firestorms in the sb. But im not sure one what I would cut down on.
And how effective the probe + therapy is.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
That is totally incorrect. We only go all-in when there is no other way to beat the opponent, or when the way is obviously clear. Otherwise, we should be acting like a disruptive, resilient aggro deck.
However, if you are going to go through all the hard work of triggering bloodghasts, take out bridges. They are fairly dead cards when you have no ichorids. Jam in 4 gemstone mine and hope that you can get there.
I would. Right now I'm running Led-less, ONLY because of $$. Think about it, it's better to have them and not run them, than to want to run them and don't have them... I feel like the explosive nature of this deck is the key. The more explosive the better. You don't need the LED, but if you can get them, why not get them.
-Yawg
You can play the deck either way, but it is much more competition-ready with LEDs. I have played the deck both ways and prefer LED over LEDless. It adds so much speed and flexibility although, played incorrectly, can lead to unfavorable blowouts. There are definitely occasions where playing your LED turn one is a poor choice. You'll get comfortable with when to go full throttle, when to dial it back, and when to slow roll.
You have very little game against Storm if you don't have LEDs. OmniShow will outrace you a good amount of the time too. I would perhaps call LEDless Dredge more stable/consistent. I know a playset of LED isn't cheap. Would you use them in any other decks?
WUBRROBOTSRBUW
BRGLIVING ENDGRB
URSPLINTER TWINRU
LEGACY
WUBRGTESGRBUW
WUBRGDREDGEGRBUW
EDH
BRGKRESH, THE BLOODBRAIDEDGRB
WBGDORAN, THE SIEGE TOWERGBW
UBSYGG, RIVER CUTTHROATBU
PAUPER EDH
WUGRHOX WAR MONKGUW
UBRDREADWINGRBU
RGFERAL ANIMISTGR
PAUPER
WUBRGALL OF ITGRBUW
Yes, it can lead to blowouts, but careful, correct play makes them basically non-issues.
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
Critters: 24
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature's Claim
I've said this before, but I really hate Iona in the combo matchups. I would prefer to just do my thing with more disruption than start warping my deck with a plan that could already be too slow. Since we can't run 8 therapy, I would suggest throwing in Unmask in those 3 slots.
So, You're suggesting that after boarding against control, to use Therapies and Unmasks to grind out your opponent's hand. Removing their control elements then 'go off' with your dredge for the win, rather than dredge for Iona and win that way? I'm not at all condemning that tactic, only confirming it. I've been trying to piece together a sideboard and up until now, have been leery with the Iona avenue. Have you tested Unmasks? Have they worked for you?
Also, was wondering about Leyline of the Void... I've seen it in lots of decks, but didn't know if they were boarded in the same way as years ago. I used to board them in vs the mirror or against decks that purposefully ran creatures that sacrificed themselves (thus negating an opponents creature hitting the yard, removing all my Bridges). Are Leylines still used for that reason, or are there matchups that I'm missing that Leyline is good against?
-Yawg
Exactly. I have been using 3 in my board for a while now, and they are a really smooth, effective method of fighting back against decks that are difficult to race, such as Sneak and Show and Storm. Unmask also has the Gitaxian Probe effect of giving us deadly accurate therapies. If your opponent cannot play anything relevant, we don't need a 7/7 angel, 2 3/1s and some assorted 1/1's and 2/2's will get the job done.
Leyline is good vs decks like that, the main reason I keep my 3-4 in there is that the mirror is tough without one, and reanimator is nearly unwinnable otherwise. As a curiosity, it is very useful against Past in Flames decks.
I'm using this list (essentially netdecked, but you know hey w/e) and I was trying to think of a good SB for this against a heavy Stoneblade meta with some reanimator and delver decks. I was thinking:
1x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Krosan Grip
2x Natures Claim
3x Tormods Crypt/Leyline of the Void ( for mirror/reanimator)
Anyone have any pointers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsjKsaxbnds <- Me.
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