How is it different? Untap comes before upkeep. Even bob requires you untap with him on your next turn before he does his ability.
The difference is that it needs to be tapped in order to untap. So he won't trigger your first untap step after casting (probably), and he's going to need a way to get tapped and survive. Big differences here.
That being said I think it's still got big potential.
It's not untapping unless it was tapped beforehand. This means in general, it is worse than Dark Confidant. Not strictly worse, as it is possible to get multiple triggers off Dark Seer in a single turn.
The card isn't as good as Dark Confidant, but there's no shame in that. Is any card in Standard as good as Dark Confidant? There might be a shell that will want it. At the very least, you'll get some laughs playing it with Witch's Eye.
The difference is that it needs to be tapped in order to untap. So he won't trigger your first untap step after casting (probably), and he's going to need a way to get tapped and survive. Big differences here.
That being said I think it's still got big potential.
Hmmm... so you can control it more I guess. Maybe scry something with higher cost and you want to keep it on top so you don't attack with him that turn.
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How is it different? Untap comes before upkeep. Even bob requires you untap with him on your next turn before he does his ability.
You have to tap a card before you can untap it. With Bob, you get the first card the turn after its played. With pain seer, you get the first card two turns after you play it, if your lucky.
Bob doesn't have to enter the red zone to get your card while a blocker with power greater than 1 will stop pain seer. There are cards that could tap pain seer, but that means you have to play other cards to mitigate pain seer's drawback. Otherwise, your source of card advantage will either die or it won't draw you cards.
In essence, when you play Bob, your opponent can only stop you from drawing cards if they play removal. When you play pain seer, your opponent can stop you from drawing cards with either removal or a creature. You might be running your own removal, but honestly, that's more work that Bob doesn't require.
Springleaf Drum + him for instant success? I don't know this guy just looks amazing. I loved playing with Duskmantle Seer and I think I will enjoy this one as well.
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Springleaf Drum + him for instant success? I don't know this guy just looks amazing. I loved playing with Duskmantle Seer and I think I will enjoy this one as well.
If you enjoy playing it (or will), go ahead nobody will stop you. But do you want to run springleaf drum? That's the downside. People are going "but if you run seer with cards X, Y and Z, he's just like Bob!" Well, that's the disadvantage. How many accessories do you need for the seer before you wish you could just run Bob instead?
I know the seer looks amazing. I thought so too the first five minutes after I saw him. Then I tested him out using some proxies. He's not Bob. The card advantage he promises is too easily controlled by your opponent playing creatures.
If you enjoy playing it (or will), go ahead nobody will stop you. But do you want to run springleaf drum? That's the downside. People are going "but if you run seer with cards X, Y and Z, he's just like Bob!" Well, that's the disadvantage. How many accessories do you need for the seer before you wish you could just run Bob instead?
I know the seer looks amazing. I thought so too the first five minutes after I saw him. Then I tested him out using some proxies. He's not Bob. The card advantage he promises is too easily controlled by your opponent playing creatures.
In a R/B aggro list there might be a way to give him haste? There is no downside if you are going to be playing that card anyways right? And you also don't take much damage from it because you will probably curve out at 2 or 3 in the aggro lists.
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I think he'll best fit in the B/W Humans Decks where they typically are attacking every turn with all of their creatures anyways due to frontline medic and other such shenanigans.
In a R/B aggro list there might be a way to give him haste? There is no downside if you are going to be playing that card anyways right? And you also don't take much damage from it because you will probably curve out at 2 or 3 in the aggro lists.
True, but you run into the same problems with tapping the seer. You need to give the seer haste to make him Bob while Bob will just draw cards regardless of haste.
It also doesn't solve the blocker problem: you attack with your hasty seer, meet another 2/2 (grizzly bear) and lose your seer. Now you could just not attack with the seer, but then you won't draw your extra card, which is what you actually want from it.
Curving out at two or three is true for Bob as well, so I'd still prefer Bob in an R/B aggro.
With all that said, I'm assuming you have access to Bob. If Bob is too expensive for you or if Bob is not legal in the format (like Standard!), then sure pain seer is the next best thing.
Could be good in black/blue heroic with aqueous form. Ensures that he survives combat and sets up the reveal.
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He fits right into the W/b aggro deck I'm using right now, as a potential replacement for Imposing Sovereign.
I think he'd sooner replace Daring Skyjek before Imposing Sovereign. Sovereign just messes up combat too much to not be played in white aggro based decks right now.
However an Orzhov list could easily play this guy.
I think he makes a great 4-of in any early aggro build (esp Rakdos) that wants to flood the board, jam damage and doesn't care about life total. Works less well in a context where you're trying to 'combo' him with a second card to turn him into Dark Confidante. It's a different enough card that the comparison could obscure his real place - as a 2/2 early beater with a card advantage upside.
Not Bob, but there's a lot of room for cards to be worse than Bob and still be good.
I'd like to try it in an aggressive deck with a low curve and removal so your opponent stays on the back foot, but let's be real: in a deck with no way to reliably tap this guy besides attacking it'll likely be nothing more than a bear that dies to any creature your opponent plays past turn 3... so, that being said, if you're going to play it, it should probably be in a deck that either:
1. Has a lot of ways to get it through combat without dying (removal, protection, equipment, etc.),
2. Has plenty of ways to tap it without attacking, or
3. Uses it as a SB card against decks where a Bear is still pretty good (some Control variant, maybe?)
I don't know if that's good enough to warrant play, but I think it could be good enough to test.
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But it's good if you are ahead in creature killing.
The difference is that it needs to be tapped in order to untap. So he won't trigger your first untap step after casting (probably), and he's going to need a way to get tapped and survive. Big differences here.
That being said I think it's still got big potential.
The card isn't as good as Dark Confidant, but there's no shame in that. Is any card in Standard as good as Dark Confidant? There might be a shell that will want it. At the very least, you'll get some laughs playing it with Witch's Eye.
Hmmm... so you can control it more I guess. Maybe scry something with higher cost and you want to keep it on top so you don't attack with him that turn.
You have to tap a card before you can untap it. With Bob, you get the first card the turn after its played. With pain seer, you get the first card two turns after you play it, if your lucky.
Bob doesn't have to enter the red zone to get your card while a blocker with power greater than 1 will stop pain seer. There are cards that could tap pain seer, but that means you have to play other cards to mitigate pain seer's drawback. Otherwise, your source of card advantage will either die or it won't draw you cards.
In essence, when you play Bob, your opponent can only stop you from drawing cards if they play removal. When you play pain seer, your opponent can stop you from drawing cards with either removal or a creature. You might be running your own removal, but honestly, that's more work that Bob doesn't require.
If you enjoy playing it (or will), go ahead nobody will stop you. But do you want to run springleaf drum? That's the downside. People are going "but if you run seer with cards X, Y and Z, he's just like Bob!" Well, that's the disadvantage. How many accessories do you need for the seer before you wish you could just run Bob instead?
I know the seer looks amazing. I thought so too the first five minutes after I saw him. Then I tested him out using some proxies. He's not Bob. The card advantage he promises is too easily controlled by your opponent playing creatures.
In a R/B aggro list there might be a way to give him haste? There is no downside if you are going to be playing that card anyways right? And you also don't take much damage from it because you will probably curve out at 2 or 3 in the aggro lists.
True, but you run into the same problems with tapping the seer. You need to give the seer haste to make him Bob while Bob will just draw cards regardless of haste.
It also doesn't solve the blocker problem: you attack with your hasty seer, meet another 2/2 (grizzly bear) and lose your seer. Now you could just not attack with the seer, but then you won't draw your extra card, which is what you actually want from it.
Curving out at two or three is true for Bob as well, so I'd still prefer Bob in an R/B aggro.
With all that said, I'm assuming you have access to Bob. If Bob is too expensive for you or if Bob is not legal in the format (like Standard!), then sure pain seer is the next best thing.
He is no bob, but he could have a big impact on standard.
I think he'd sooner replace Daring Skyjek before Imposing Sovereign. Sovereign just messes up combat too much to not be played in white aggro based decks right now.
However an Orzhov list could easily play this guy.
Standard
WUW/U HumansUW
Modern
WBW/B TokensBW
I'd like to try it in an aggressive deck with a low curve and removal so your opponent stays on the back foot, but let's be real: in a deck with no way to reliably tap this guy besides attacking it'll likely be nothing more than a bear that dies to any creature your opponent plays past turn 3... so, that being said, if you're going to play it, it should probably be in a deck that either:
1. Has a lot of ways to get it through combat without dying (removal, protection, equipment, etc.),
2. Has plenty of ways to tap it without attacking, or
3. Uses it as a SB card against decks where a Bear is still pretty good (some Control variant, maybe?)
I don't know if that's good enough to warrant play, but I think it could be good enough to test.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
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Thoughts on proxies:
However, this card is good and it WILL see play.
Im sure there will be more cards like Springleaf Drum that will be printed in this set.