I think you guys are forgetting that she will never be shocked to death. After you play her you have priority therefore you +1 and she gets the counter before your opponent can even cast shock.
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I used to be a magic player like you but then I took a Serrated Arrows to the knee
Not true people can in response shock her before you activate her ability. If someone had shock in their hand they would either wait till your endstep to cast it or before you activate its +1 ability. This is why planeswalkers should never be left at 2 counters without protection.
Nope. Once Kiora resolves, the stack is empty and the active player gets priority again. If the active player activates Kiora's +1, the loyalty counter is put onto Kiora as part of the cost and can't be responded to. In this case, the earliest the opponent could cast shock and redirect it to Kiora would be while the ability is on the stack, and by then she would already have 3 loyalty counters on her.
People had similar arguments about JTMS being vulnerable to Lightning Bolt.
I know I am bad at evaluating cards, but am I that bad?
She looks terrible to me. 4 mana for 2 loyalty, and how often are you going to have enough lands in hand that late to be able to play two per turn...?
Bah.
No, I would agree that she's pretty bad as far as planeswalkers go. She has zero appeal for modern/legacy. People will try to play her in standard but realize that she is just a worse version of Jace, so maybe that'll work out for her in 9 months when Jace rotates out. Yes, I'm sure she's good in draft/sealed, but that's true of any planeswalker. She also seems reasonable in EDH, unlike many other walkers.
Currently she gets shut down hard by pretty much every deck, and the value you get out of a 4 mana explore is just pretty bad compared to something like Jace (draw 2 cards) if your opponent just kills it with a spell. She also has a much harder time protecting herself because most decks currently run either a multitude of creatures or evasion. Sure, she works if your opponent only has a single creature or if you've clogged up the board to protect her, but even then it's risky to invest that much to try to hit ultimate when there are so many answers right now in standard. Not to mention that your strategy resolves around slowing down the game in order to get value out of her, which makes it really problematic if Thoughtseize hits her.
Overall I'm not impressed. People will try to jam her into Bant control lists until they realize she's only mediocre in a single matchup (control), and even there Esper has 8 maindeck answers to a resolved Kiora, and her +1 has no impact on the match unless you can keep her on board for 4 turns. Not to mention that she does little to protect herself against the threats from the decks she's good against (fine vs. blood baron, horrid vs. elspeth, aetherling, obzedat).
Not true people can in response shock her before you activate her ability. If someone had shock in their hand they would either wait till your endstep to cast it or before you activate its +1 ability. This is why planeswalkers should never be left at 2 counters without protection.
False. If you resolve the planeswalker and don't do anything else before activating a planeswalker, there is no chance for the Shock to be cast. You always get a least one activation of a walker once it resolves.. Again, unless you do something first. So you pretty much always get at least one Explore.
It's incredibly amusing to see the certainty that some people speak with when they say how "awful" she is. It's like they've been playing with her for weeks instead of only learning about her half a day ago.
I dont understand why everyone is treating her as a 4 mana explore, her ultimate is where its at. Sure drawing cards and getting extra land for the turn is wonderful, but from my perspective, im just going to wipe your board, play Kiora, and ride her to victory. The only real benefit i see from using her -1 as you play her is if you need an answer that turn or have another in your hand to play after you -1 the first one next turn. Her +1 is sweet and her ultimate is NUTS. Just dont be a bad player and learn WHEN to play Kiora so you can protect her and ride her to victory within a few turns.
+1 Until your next turn, prevent all damage that would be dealt to and dealt by target permanent an opponent controls.
lol, misread this ability as "all permanents". Seems much less powerful now but still very annoying in U/G control. EDH decks will hate, hate, hate this card.
These are all turn 3 answers to Kiora in Standard and we still don't have BOG out yet. Yeah...she isn't looking so hot for standard. She is basically a 4 mana cost version Azorius Ploy that doesn't let you target two different creatures and is mythic....
Lol, almost all of those are T3 answers to JTMS as well. I'm sure if they reprinted that card you'd be using this argument to say he wasn't looking so hot for standard.
She might be a pretty good planeswalker, but not for Maze's End. Maze's End decks need to be able to fog an entire combat step, not one creature. It might be a sideboard card against other control decks that side in Needle to stop Maze's End, but it's not a main deck card in that deck in my opinion.
Lol, almost all of those are T3 answers to JTMS as well. I'm sure if they reprinted that card you'd be using this argument to say he wasn't looking so hot for standard.
Once you {0} Jace, you are way ahead your opponent for the rest of the game (in Legacy, where him is played), Jace turns the board around completely, or gives you insane card advantage/quality the turn you play him... then him can be bolted, but you are probably winning already. Kiora ramps you a little, gives you a card (great ability, im not saying less) and then dies.
JTMS abilities are just hideously good, the comparation is not fair.
You're talking about Gilder Bairn. And Wizards knows exactly why they made Vorel like they did.
Edit: @Denegaar: Are you saying that if you play JtMS and go {0} you're way ahead of your opponent and it's essentially okay if he dies?
So Healing Salve + Brainstorm at cmc 4 is enough to make you on the road of winning the game?
She might be a pretty good planeswalker, but not for Maze's End. Maze's End decks need to be able to fog an entire combat step, not one creature. It might be a sideboard card against other control decks that side in Needle to stop Maze's End, but it's not a main deck card in that deck in my opinion.
I think he means using the -1 to play more lands and draw more cards. Since you really don't care if they waste their combat steps attacking her or you can just fog as usual, since she gives you another land drop the turn you play her.
Basically she becomes a potentially slower Urban Evolution that lets you play more lands if you can protect her. That deck would play a card like Exploration in a heartbeat even if it cost 3+ mana. Her +1 also is not as bad as it seems, I mean Tamiyo's is very similar to this and that +1 was very annoying.
Low loyalty but 4 CMC means no Abrupt Decay which is definitely good
Her -1 is very good
Her +1 is decent
Solid card but, as has been the trend with recent (from 2011 and onward) Planeswalkers, she's niche and a utility card. It isn't hard to imagine that she'll find a home in Standard and Commander
I guess the way to look at Kiora is that she is a four costing explore that will either redirect a spell from you to her or fog you while she takes the brunt of the army. This isn't that bad in a way.
Also against the right deck like mono black she stops spectre/demon. Esper has answers for any planeswalker, but if they happen to not have it or she gets two triggers from her second ability could give you the edge over the control match up.
In all she isn't terrible and will be tested out. Honestly I think she might a 1 of in some decks or used in sideboard. I don't think she is going to be must playset of a planeswalker like JAoT. Now when Jace rotates she might jump in and take his spot.
You're talking about Gilder Bairn. And Wizards knows exactly why they made Vorel like they did.
Edit: @Denegaar: Are you saying that if you play JtMS and go {0} you're way ahead of your opponent and it's essentially okay if he dies?
So Healing Salve + Brainstorm at cmc 4 is enough to make you on the road of winning the game?
Essentially, yes. I'm talking about Legacy, of course... In a deck playing Jace, if you get to 4 mana and Brainstorm with him, you probably have a hand capable of winning everything. It was hard to understand for me too, but the more you play with that card, the more you see why he's that strong. At first you think "hah, he's just brainstorming" and then you realize "huh, he has an answer for everything, and drawing even more ****".
That's why I think he's not comparable to Kiora at all. In Standard, if you can't keep drawing out of her, she doesn't give the advantage you need to win.
- Her +1 is good vs other damaging planeswalkers or vs decks with one single big menace, but useless vs aggro (not good vs blue elementals, pack rats, white weenies...).
- Her -1 is good, but really underwhelming if she dies the next turn.
- Ultimate is ridiculous, as all the ultimates.
Even though, probably playable in certain niche decks with other cards of the next two expansions, right now, pretty meh IMO. The meta can change
You are correct, I didn't realise you can't stop them utilising their planeswalker. I suppose only spells like Squelch works really.
No they are not, Hero's Downfall, Dreadbore & Detention Sphere work. Jace has 5 loyalty counters after activating his ability unlike Kiora's 3.
Jace's +2 ability is very useful and his 0 can greatly give you an advantage over the other player.
Kiora's ability is basically either a 4 mana cost version of explore or a 4 mana version of a worse Azorius Ploy.
Squelch will counter the ability, but it still won't stop her from getting the loyalty counter. Adding or removing loyalty on a planeswalker is paying a cost, which cannot be responded to.
Point of order: Can people stop trying to correlate new Planeswalkers to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, in terms of power? I think we've come to the point wherein even the best new Planeswalkers will not be comparable. It involves a lot of grandstanding and is usually based off some odd misconception as to how strong of a card Jace, the Mind Sculptor is. The only similarities between the two are their converted mana cost, and there are way more relevant points of comparison that are both Standard and Modern legal.
I strongly suspect that if Ajani does make appearance in Born of the Gods, he'll probably be Mono-White. Which would be odd, given that there is a Mono-White 'walker already, but Planeswalkers don't typically abide by these kind of rules.
Good point. However, I can dream right? Just wondering, would the full set of manlands being in standard stop the fetchlands from being reprinted as they were both together in Zendikar already?
No. There's nothing stopping them from coexisting, even in new Blocks.
But I'd bet money they won't be reprinted (any time soon). There's just no need.
Unless if it is never actually made like the Tatsumasa's token.
Post-Zendikar, they've been pretty good about making tokens for every effect (even the most random, unimportant effects). Tatsumasa predates this, though.
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Point of order: Can people stop trying to correlate new Planeswalkers to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, in terms of power? I think we've come to the point wherein even the best new Planeswalkers will not be comparable. It involves a lot of grandstanding and is usually based off some odd misconception as to how strong of a card Jace, the Mind Sculptor is. The only similarities between the two are their converted mana cost, and there are way more relevant points of comparison that are both Standard and Modern legal.
I strongly suspect that if Ajani does make appearance in Born of the Gods, he'll probably be Mono-White. Which would be odd, given that there is a Mono-White 'walker already, but Planeswalkers don't typically abide by these kind of rules.
"As a holiday treat for all of you, we wanted to share the new Planeswalker appearing in Born of the Gods."
This seems like a strong indication that there will only be one PW in BNG, Kiora. I wouldn't expect Ajani until JOU.
This is just my opinion (and for that very reason could be completely wrong) but obviously Development had to have done some extensive testing to only have her start at 2 loyalty counters. Kiora must have been doing some serious work in the FFL, as it just seems like the kind of card that could have been at 3 or even 4 counters without an issue. The rest of the set has yet to be spoiled, so keep an eye out, as if decks start to rely more and more on one finisher (ie; AEtherling) then this kid will be absolutely bonkers.
Decks that have Aetherling usually has Hero's Downfall
That's the biggest issue right now for her: can she stay when you have an extra land in play ....
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That's win more, don't get me wrong, but sometimes it feels great.
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Nope. Once Kiora resolves, the stack is empty and the active player gets priority again. If the active player activates Kiora's +1, the loyalty counter is put onto Kiora as part of the cost and can't be responded to. In this case, the earliest the opponent could cast shock and redirect it to Kiora would be while the ability is on the stack, and by then she would already have 3 loyalty counters on her.
People had similar arguments about JTMS being vulnerable to Lightning Bolt.
No, I would agree that she's pretty bad as far as planeswalkers go. She has zero appeal for modern/legacy. People will try to play her in standard but realize that she is just a worse version of Jace, so maybe that'll work out for her in 9 months when Jace rotates out. Yes, I'm sure she's good in draft/sealed, but that's true of any planeswalker. She also seems reasonable in EDH, unlike many other walkers.
Currently she gets shut down hard by pretty much every deck, and the value you get out of a 4 mana explore is just pretty bad compared to something like Jace (draw 2 cards) if your opponent just kills it with a spell. She also has a much harder time protecting herself because most decks currently run either a multitude of creatures or evasion. Sure, she works if your opponent only has a single creature or if you've clogged up the board to protect her, but even then it's risky to invest that much to try to hit ultimate when there are so many answers right now in standard. Not to mention that your strategy resolves around slowing down the game in order to get value out of her, which makes it really problematic if Thoughtseize hits her.
Overall I'm not impressed. People will try to jam her into Bant control lists until they realize she's only mediocre in a single matchup (control), and even there Esper has 8 maindeck answers to a resolved Kiora, and her +1 has no impact on the match unless you can keep her on board for 4 turns. Not to mention that she does little to protect herself against the threats from the decks she's good against (fine vs. blood baron, horrid vs. elspeth, aetherling, obzedat).
False. If you resolve the planeswalker and don't do anything else before activating a planeswalker, there is no chance for the Shock to be cast. You always get a least one activation of a walker once it resolves.. Again, unless you do something first. So you pretty much always get at least one Explore.
lol, misread this ability as "all permanents". Seems much less powerful now but still very annoying in U/G control. EDH decks will hate, hate, hate this card.
Lol, almost all of those are T3 answers to JTMS as well. I'm sure if they reprinted that card you'd be using this argument to say he wasn't looking so hot for standard.
She might be a pretty good planeswalker, but not for Maze's End. Maze's End decks need to be able to fog an entire combat step, not one creature. It might be a sideboard card against other control decks that side in Needle to stop Maze's End, but it's not a main deck card in that deck in my opinion.
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Once you {0} Jace, you are way ahead your opponent for the rest of the game (in Legacy, where him is played), Jace turns the board around completely, or gives you insane card advantage/quality the turn you play him... then him can be bolted, but you are probably winning already. Kiora ramps you a little, gives you a card (great ability, im not saying less) and then dies.
JTMS abilities are just hideously good, the comparation is not fair.
Edit: @Denegaar: Are you saying that if you play JtMS and go {0} you're way ahead of your opponent and it's essentially okay if he dies?
So Healing Salve + Brainstorm at cmc 4 is enough to make you on the road of winning the game?
I think he means using the -1 to play more lands and draw more cards. Since you really don't care if they waste their combat steps attacking her or you can just fog as usual, since she gives you another land drop the turn you play her.
Basically she becomes a potentially slower Urban Evolution that lets you play more lands if you can protect her. That deck would play a card like Exploration in a heartbeat even if it cost 3+ mana. Her +1 also is not as bad as it seems, I mean Tamiyo's is very similar to this and that +1 was very annoying.
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Low loyalty but 4 CMC means no Abrupt Decay which is definitely good
Her -1 is very good
Her +1 is decent
Solid card but, as has been the trend with recent (from 2011 and onward) Planeswalkers, she's niche and a utility card. It isn't hard to imagine that she'll find a home in Standard and Commander
Also against the right deck like mono black she stops spectre/demon. Esper has answers for any planeswalker, but if they happen to not have it or she gets two triggers from her second ability could give you the edge over the control match up.
In all she isn't terrible and will be tested out. Honestly I think she might a 1 of in some decks or used in sideboard. I don't think she is going to be must playset of a planeswalker like JAoT. Now when Jace rotates she might jump in and take his spot.
Essentially, yes. I'm talking about Legacy, of course... In a deck playing Jace, if you get to 4 mana and Brainstorm with him, you probably have a hand capable of winning everything. It was hard to understand for me too, but the more you play with that card, the more you see why he's that strong. At first you think "hah, he's just brainstorming" and then you realize "huh, he has an answer for everything, and drawing even more ****".
That's why I think he's not comparable to Kiora at all. In Standard, if you can't keep drawing out of her, she doesn't give the advantage you need to win.
- Her +1 is good vs other damaging planeswalkers or vs decks with one single big menace, but useless vs aggro (not good vs blue elementals, pack rats, white weenies...).
- Her -1 is good, but really underwhelming if she dies the next turn.
- Ultimate is ridiculous, as all the ultimates.
Even though, probably playable in certain niche decks with other cards of the next two expansions, right now, pretty meh IMO. The meta can change
Squelch will counter the ability, but it still won't stop her from getting the loyalty counter. Adding or removing loyalty on a planeswalker is paying a cost, which cannot be responded to.
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I strongly suspect that if Ajani does make appearance in Born of the Gods, he'll probably be Mono-White. Which would be odd, given that there is a Mono-White 'walker already, but Planeswalkers don't typically abide by these kind of rules.
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No. There's nothing stopping them from coexisting, even in new Blocks.
But I'd bet money they won't be reprinted (any time soon). There's just no need.
Post-Zendikar, they've been pretty good about making tokens for every effect (even the most random, unimportant effects). Tatsumasa predates this, though.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
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"As a holiday treat for all of you, we wanted to share the new Planeswalker appearing in Born of the Gods."
This seems like a strong indication that there will only be one PW in BNG, Kiora. I wouldn't expect Ajani until JOU.
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Decks that have Aetherling usually has Hero's Downfall
That's the biggest issue right now for her: can she stay when you have an extra land in play ....