Don't play enough Standard anymore to speculate, but she looks underwhelming and I've grown pretty weary of people's spoiler hype. Wouldn't be surprised to see her under $15 by April if BNG doesn't bring something along with her to make it awesome in the Standard environment. Once she rotates out, it's straight to the bulk mythic bin to collect dust.
I seriously doubt she will hit bulk, seeing as the only real bulk planeswalkers atm are tibalt and most chandras and she has way more potential in edh compared to them. I mean, before the newest one, chandra ablaze was the most, or almost the most, expensive chandra of the 3 and she is considered by many to be the worst walker, barring tibalt.
For edh, one of her best comparisons is with jace beleren: both of their - abilities have a similar impact, a personal draw and a not super-relavent ult, although kiroa's are slightly more relavent while jace's + is better. I almost never see a jace die by outside forces, although kiora's ramp is a bit more threatening.
You know the card is good when 1/3 of the people say its underpowered, 1/3 say its just right, and the other 1/3 say its overpowered.
Standard GRampG Modern
none atm Legacy 0Afinity0 RGoblinsR Vintage
LOLOL I don't have that kind of money EDH/Commander BGSavra, Queen of the Golgari (tokens/sac)GB WUBRGKarona, False God (allies)GRBUW BSeizan, Perverter of Truth (discard)B WUKangee, Aerie Keeper (bird/ramp)UW
I don't know why people are harshing on this card so much. Sure, she dies to Bolt/Lightning Strike, but, last I checked, (1) not every deck runs red burn spells, and (2) very, very few cards are effective against every color and deck type. If she cost 1 less to cast, or if she had 1 additional loyalty, she would be broken. I am personally very excited to play her.
I think the Lightning Bolt issue is probably the first immediate issue I see for Kiora in Modern, but if you could cut that out maybe just maybe she can do something. After thinking a little, maybe a Bant Fog list of some sort? First off you'd want to negate the Bolt factor, so maybe Leyline of Sanctity maindeck? Some defenders and Spellskites to protect her as well? Fog effect, and some cheap blue counters to protect her from other threats, already safe from Abrupt Decay, not bad.
T1: Leyline & Dork (If they do have a Bolt, your dork is probably gonna eat it, lol)
T2: Spellskite / Wall of Omens?
T3: Kiora
T4-6: Fog... Fog... Fog...
T7: Kiora Ult for the good stuff?
I don't know why people are harshing on this card so much. Sure, she dies to Bolt/Lightning Strike, but, last I checked, (1) not every deck runs red burn spells, and (2) very, very few cards are effective against every color and deck type. If she cost 1 less to cast, or if she had 1 additional loyalty, she would be broken. I am personally very excited to play her.
An additional loyalty wouldn't be broken if they made her ultimate one more loyalty to use. And the reason why I don't like it is because I am a Modern player. Lightning Bolt is currently in 45.60% of all Modern decks. Also, for Modern players it is best to be pessimistic about the cards in new sets. I was pessimistic about Theros and even then I was disappointed.
I seriously doubt she will hit bulk, seeing as the only real bulk planeswalkers atm are tibalt and most chandras and she has way more potential in edh compared to them. I mean, before the newest one, chandra ablaze was the most, or almost the most, expensive chandra of the 3 and she is considered by many to be the worst walker, barring tibalt.
For edh, one of her best comparisons is with jace beleren: both of their - abilities have a similar impact, a personal draw and a not super-relavent ult, although kiroa's are slightly more relavent while jace's + is better. I almost never see a jace die by outside forces, although kiora's ramp is a bit more threatening.
I never really consider the casual appeal much, but given her as a 1 of in some EDH decks, she'd probably still max $6 post rotation.
I think the Lightning Bolt issue is probably the first immediate issue I see for Kiora in Modern, but if you could cut that out maybe just maybe she can do something. After thinking a little, maybe a Bant Fog list of some sort? First off you'd want to negate the Bolt factor, so maybe Leyline of Sanctity maindeck?
T1: Leyline & Dork (If they do have a Bolt, your dork is probably gonna eat it, lol)
T2: Spellskite / Wall of Omens?
T3: Kiora
T4-6: Fog... Fog... Fog...
T7: Kiora Ult for the good stuff?
I dunno, not likely, but who knows.
That involves a god draw, running bad cards maindeck, your opponent not drawing into removal, and your opponent not having a way to circumvent the fog (infinite life, infinite direct damage, lots of direct damage) that will allow them to win before you do this. It isn't happening.
An additional loyalty wouldn't be broken if they made her ultimate one more loyalty to use. And the reason why I don't like it is because I am a Modern player. Lightning Bolt is currently in 45.60% of all Modern decks. Also, for Modern players it is best to be pessimistic about the cards in new sets. I was pessimistic about Theros and even then I was disappointed.
Yeah, I meant to say "play her in Standard". I haven't dabbled too much in Modern, and I know that she's likely not going to see Modern play. Then again, there are always surprises.
Man, the 2 loyalty is killing me, because I so want to love this card. I really enjoy UG, hell even the colors on the walker frame look great, but I just feel like loyalty is too big of an impediment for this card to be successful.
What?! It runs 28 creatures, 24 of which have CMC 3 or less, along with a splash of removal and CA effects.
EDIT: sorry, 32 creatures if you count Mutavault.
Mono-U waits for everything to develop, so normally you have some time(not long but still time) before Mono-U becomes threatening. That's why Overload Cyclone Rift is your win condition. It's slower than Aggro but moves faster than Midrange.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
There is a subtle nuance people always overlook especially with Walkers. Sometimes you intentionally dont run it out as fast as possible. Its ok for a card to need help sometimes like like waiting until after 4 mana to cast.
In a vacuum she seems OK but I think there's more than meets the eye with this lady.
Yeah, I meant to say "play her in Standard". I haven't dabbled too much in Modern, and I know that she's likely not going to see Modern play. Then again, there are always surprises.
True, but if I'm pessimistic I'll be pleasantly surprised if she is played and I will be right if she isn't. if I am optimistic, I'll be disappointed when she mostly likely isn't playable and will be right if she is. I prefer the first choice.
You will be able to -1 her for a turn and for 4 mana before she gets destroyed.
Compared to what you do with Jace, which is, you know, -2 and he gets destroyed.
I never +1 Jace unless I absolutely need to, or for some strange reason I want to build up to his terrible, expensive ultimate. The same is true for Kiora except her +1 deals with MUCH more than Jace's, her -1 is easily on par if not much stronger than Jace's -2, and her ultimate is actually reachable and nigh unstoppable. Kiora's +1 deals with the threats you actually care about in a control deck, Desecration Demons, Nightveil Specters, even Blood Baron of Vizkopas. Her -1 accelerates you into the huge Sphinx's Revelations that define the power of control decks and oh yeah, draws you a card.
The only reason Kiora won't see play is if somehow green isn't good in the next set. Which, given Wizards' recent track record, is nigh impossible.
EDIT: Oh and for people talking about playing Kiora in modern, the answer is no, she is far too slow for modern, much like Architect of Thought.
I literally shouted 'WOOOOOOOOO!' when I saw she had been spoiled. I think she'll make bant control a thing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It’s like the universe screams in your face, “Do you know what I am? How grand I am? How old I am? Can you even comprehend what I am? What are you, compared to me?” And when you know enough science, you can just smile up at the universe and reply, “Dude, I am you.”
Overall, I think it should be obvious that she's "good enough" to see standard play in some abstract sense, but IMO nowhere near good enough to create an archetype on her own. Basically, a card that needs a good UGx deck to already exist for her to slot into, and needs the right metagame (lots of singular threats and not much weenie aggro, etc).
If I were to guess, I'd say she probably won't see too much play (she'll be in standard a long time, who knows where the meta will go, but I wouldn't bet on it). But evaluations along the lines of "bad card, trololol" are pretty eyeroll-inducing, and there are some comically bad evaluations of her +1 (which protects while gaining loyalty quite well for a < 5 cmc walker) going around.
Yea, that is definitely an homage to the fractal wave. Scott M. Fischer is my favorite magic artist, so that is about the only thing I like about the card.
Each and every one of her abilities is damn cool. Her -1, in my opinion, is ever better than her ultimate. This'll definitely be the next $20 (after the dust settles) PW.
The -1 is by far the best ability, and it is that ability that makes the card unplayable because it is so good that I think wizards tried to balance it by decreasing loyalty. I think she would have been much better if they had dialed back the -1 and gave it a loyalty of three.
That involves a god draw, running bad cards maindeck, your opponent not drawing into removal, and your opponent not having a way to circumvent the fog (infinite life, infinite direct damage, lots of direct damage) that will allow them to win before you do this. It isn't happening.
Oh I know it's magical Christmasland god draw bull****, but you never know until someone actually smashes up an actual list and plays it. I've seen some pretty ****ty jank win FNMs before, and not everything has to be Pro Tour material in the format. We got a whole forum here of Modern decks that aren't ever going to see a GP/PT Top 8 that are completely capable of winning 4 rounds in a local meta.
I still doubt we'll ever see her do anything in Modern. We've got what 40 some walkers now, and half a dozen of them do anything in Modern? I wouldn't be surprised to see her do next to nothing for Standard when the time comes either.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Getting to the ultimate is a lot easier with the built-in damage shutdown - and boy that ultimate is an ultimate. The "-1: Explore" is gravy, any planeswalker that replaces itself in terms of card advantage merits consideration. Very playable, if you curve a removal spell or Sylvan Caryatid into Kiora, the clock will start ticking quickly for your opponent to answer.
I like her a lot. Unlike most planeswalkers it's actually reasonable to work towards the ultimate, because it only takes 5 loyalty to summon the Krakens and the +1 is going to be detaining something every turn. And if that's not a viable strategy you could just pull ahead with card draw and extra land drops.
I still doubt we'll ever see her do anything in Modern. We've got what 40 some walkers now, and half a dozen of them do anything in Modern? I wouldn't be surprised to see her do next to nothing for Standard when the time comes either.
the major problem is she is almost never better then jace at anything she does
Well, no, she's worse than Jace at drawing cards (her -1 isn't bad, but Jace's -2 is much better).
Her +1 seems somewhat comparable to Jace's, though I'm inclined to believe it's better on balance. Sometimes it's vastly superior (your opponent's board is a Desecration Demon or Nightveil Specter or something, and is otherwise empty/stopped by your board), even if there are times when Jace's is better (if Lingering Souls was still in the format, the comparison would be different, that's for sure).
Her ultimate seems significantly better than Architect of Thought's... she gets to it faster, and it's far less answerable.
Of course, being worse at drawing cards than the mono-blue Jace AoT is a big deal, and makes me skeptical about her chances in standard, but her design seems respectable.
I seriously doubt she will hit bulk, seeing as the only real bulk planeswalkers atm are tibalt and most chandras and she has way more potential in edh compared to them. I mean, before the newest one, chandra ablaze was the most, or almost the most, expensive chandra of the 3 and she is considered by many to be the worst walker, barring tibalt.
For edh, one of her best comparisons is with jace beleren: both of their - abilities have a similar impact, a personal draw and a not super-relavent ult, although kiroa's are slightly more relavent while jace's + is better. I almost never see a jace die by outside forces, although kiora's ramp is a bit more threatening.
Standard
GRampG
Modern
none atm
Legacy
0Afinity0
RGoblinsR
Vintage
LOLOL I don't have that kind of money
EDH/Commander
BGSavra, Queen of the Golgari (tokens/sac)GB
WUBRGKarona, False God (allies)GRBUW
BSeizan, Perverter of Truth (discard)B
WUKangee, Aerie Keeper (bird/ramp)UW
i feel like this is symbolic of the thoughts in this thread: a load of hypotheticals and wishful thinking
its a bad card. thats right
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
T1: Leyline & Dork (If they do have a Bolt, your dork is probably gonna eat it, lol)
T2: Spellskite / Wall of Omens?
T3: Kiora
T4-6: Fog... Fog... Fog...
T7: Kiora Ult for the good stuff?
I dunno, not likely, but who knows.
An additional loyalty wouldn't be broken if they made her ultimate one more loyalty to use. And the reason why I don't like it is because I am a Modern player. Lightning Bolt is currently in 45.60% of all Modern decks. Also, for Modern players it is best to be pessimistic about the cards in new sets. I was pessimistic about Theros and even then I was disappointed.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
So, you think there isn't a big difference between 4 and 5 mana? Have you played standard?
I never really consider the casual appeal much, but given her as a 1 of in some EDH decks, she'd probably still max $6 post rotation.
That involves a god draw, running bad cards maindeck, your opponent not drawing into removal, and your opponent not having a way to circumvent the fog (infinite life, infinite direct damage, lots of direct damage) that will allow them to win before you do this. It isn't happening.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yeah, I meant to say "play her in Standard". I haven't dabbled too much in Modern, and I know that she's likely not going to see Modern play. Then again, there are always surprises.
Mono-U waits for everything to develop, so normally you have some time(not long but still time) before Mono-U becomes threatening. That's why Overload Cyclone Rift is your win condition. It's slower than Aggro but moves faster than Midrange.
(The low CMC and extremely low loyalty being the biggest surprises).
The Ultimate is better than it could have been, but...
This is a bit disappointing after such a long wait
Oh, and I told you she would be GU.
At least that wasn't a surprise.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
In a vacuum she seems OK but I think there's more than meets the eye with this lady.
True, but if I'm pessimistic I'll be pleasantly surprised if she is played and I will be right if she isn't. if I am optimistic, I'll be disappointed when she mostly likely isn't playable and will be right if she is. I prefer the first choice.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Compared to what you do with Jace, which is, you know, -2 and he gets destroyed.
I never +1 Jace unless I absolutely need to, or for some strange reason I want to build up to his terrible, expensive ultimate. The same is true for Kiora except her +1 deals with MUCH more than Jace's, her -1 is easily on par if not much stronger than Jace's -2, and her ultimate is actually reachable and nigh unstoppable. Kiora's +1 deals with the threats you actually care about in a control deck, Desecration Demons, Nightveil Specters, even Blood Baron of Vizkopas. Her -1 accelerates you into the huge Sphinx's Revelations that define the power of control decks and oh yeah, draws you a card.
The only reason Kiora won't see play is if somehow green isn't good in the next set. Which, given Wizards' recent track record, is nigh impossible.
EDIT: Oh and for people talking about playing Kiora in modern, the answer is no, she is far too slow for modern, much like Architect of Thought.
[THS|SOM|5TH] Devotion to Black
I stepped out of a supernova...and so did you.
If I were to guess, I'd say she probably won't see too much play (she'll be in standard a long time, who knows where the meta will go, but I wouldn't bet on it). But evaluations along the lines of "bad card, trololol" are pretty eyeroll-inducing, and there are some comically bad evaluations of her +1 (which protects while gaining loyalty quite well for a < 5 cmc walker) going around.
Yea, in Modern I can't see this being playable unless the set bring some great and reliable ways to stave off burn.
The -1 is by far the best ability, and it is that ability that makes the card unplayable because it is so good that I think wizards tried to balance it by decreasing loyalty. I think she would have been much better if they had dialed back the -1 and gave it a loyalty of three.
Not in my meta. Aggro (Boros, Black Devotion, and Gruul) is at least 75% of my FNM meta. I almost never see control or tempo there.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Oh I know it's magical Christmasland god draw bull****, but you never know until someone actually smashes up an actual list and plays it. I've seen some pretty ****ty jank win FNMs before, and not everything has to be Pro Tour material in the format. We got a whole forum here of Modern decks that aren't ever going to see a GP/PT Top 8 that are completely capable of winning 4 rounds in a local meta.
I still doubt we'll ever see her do anything in Modern. We've got what 40 some walkers now, and half a dozen of them do anything in Modern? I wouldn't be surprised to see her do next to nothing for Standard when the time comes either.
and that Wizards thought enough of her to make her a Christmas Gift to us
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I like her a lot. Unlike most planeswalkers it's actually reasonable to work towards the ultimate, because it only takes 5 loyalty to summon the Krakens and the +1 is going to be detaining something every turn. And if that's not a viable strategy you could just pull ahead with card draw and extra land drops.
Actually, Liliana of the Veil, Karn Liberated, Ajani Vengeant, Gideon Jura, Chandra, Pyromaster, Garruk Relentless, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Garruk Wildspeaker, and Jace Berelen have all seen some play in Modern and Jace, the Mindsculptor is banned. So planeswalkers have done stuff in Modern.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I feel Kiora's +1 is superior to Jace's, and the ultimate is far more reasonable to attain. Jace's draw function is certainly much better.
Well, no, she's worse than Jace at drawing cards (her -1 isn't bad, but Jace's -2 is much better).
Her +1 seems somewhat comparable to Jace's, though I'm inclined to believe it's better on balance. Sometimes it's vastly superior (your opponent's board is a Desecration Demon or Nightveil Specter or something, and is otherwise empty/stopped by your board), even if there are times when Jace's is better (if Lingering Souls was still in the format, the comparison would be different, that's for sure).
Her ultimate seems significantly better than Architect of Thought's... she gets to it faster, and it's far less answerable.
Of course, being worse at drawing cards than the mono-blue Jace AoT is a big deal, and makes me skeptical about her chances in standard, but her design seems respectable.