So starting from the OP Deck List, what would you guys cut for Bob, Toxic Deluge, and GMoA?
I'm leaning towards Graveborn Muse, Oblivion Stone, and Kokusho, respectively. Muse seems like a no-brainer, Kokusho is pretty obvious, but O-Stone for Deluge is my sticking point, since O-Stone can clear out non-creature permanents.
I disagree with the notion of cutting Koko just because Gray Merchant does the same function a little better. Both are still super effective at winning the game, and the odds of someone pointing a grave-hater at Chainer and catching one or the other seems likely. Even the OP mentioned that exiling Koko from the yard is sad times.
Personally, I've never really been a fan of Geth in a Chainer deck (or vice versa). Geth is basically a functional reprint of Chainer, except you never really have to worry about Chainer getting exiled, and there are enough tutors and sac outlets in mono-black that you shouldn't have to worry about getting him tucked. Plus, Geth costs a ton of mana to cast and to activate. I'd much rather cut Geth than Koko.
I fail to see how Bob is better than Graveborn Muse in this format. The odds of him coming down earlier than Graveborn Muse are pretty slim. Bob also dies to just about everything that Muse dies to.
On another note, I don't see any discussion of Jet Medallion in this thread. I've been playing the Emerald variety in my Yeva deck and it is incredible. The effect is subtle enough that it doesn't automatically get blown up like a Gauntlet of Power or even a Gilded Lotus would, and it very quietly saves a ton of mana over time.
There is some stuff I want for it like some of the better tutors that no one near me is trading and I don't feel like buying at the moment but other than that I really enjoy how it plays.
Generally speaking when playing the deck I first try to establish some kind of draw engine then a mana doubler, then take control of the game.
You'll notice that I play a lot of spot removal.
Staving off quick aggro generals is really important. Kaalia, Jhoria, Azusa, Edric, etc, cant be on the table early game. Late game you dont really care. The cheaper the removal the better, so you can still further your board state. Withering Boon is, well, a huge boon. It looks bad on paper, in reality its great. Most every creature has ETB effects these days, so simply letting them resolve then killing it isnt good enough.
We have hard enough of a time keeping up with ramp players, letting them resolve an early terastodon doesnt cut it.
If im playing against a heavy Blue table, the first thing I try to stick is Mindslicer. We play great in topdeck mode, especially with all the draw 1 during upkeep we play. If you can recurr and sac mindslicer during the draw step of the blue player you'll be able to win easily.
Against aggro you want to go board wipe happy. Wipe the board often, look for your guys that recur and gain life. Dont be afraid to Exsanguinate for less than lethal. XHD can always get it back for you later on.
Try to get out Kagemaru or Oblivion Stone and sit on it for as long as possible to prevent them from trying an alpha strike.
Against Combo go all out. Lose as much life as you want digging for your combo pieces. Assume if they combo you die, so getting out all your bob effects and what not is the best idea. Dont forget to swing with them.
The main combo of the deck is looping Living Death with XHD and Phyrexian Altar while having KoKo, merchant, blood artist, or falkenwrath noble active. Many times you'll just have enough mana to loop koko or gray with chainer and a sac outlet alone. Its good to note that before you cast Living Death you should always do a GY check. Steal any problematic ETB/combo creatures your opponents control, then sacrifice chainer to exile them.
I really dont think that you need to play any creatures in this deck purely for their 'beatface' value. The utility ones we run work just fine, and often times your opponents have good enough ones to steal.
Generally, the only creatures of your opponents worth stealing are eternal Witness, Oracle of Mul Daya and Teratrodon. (unless its a creature you already run, duh :p)
Obviously, there are other situations where you might want other creatures, but these guys you almost always want.
So starting from the OP Deck List, what would you guys cut for Bob, Toxic Deluge, and GMoA?
I'm leaning towards Graveborn Muse, Oblivion Stone, and Kokusho, respectively. Muse seems like a no-brainer, Kokusho is pretty obvious, but O-Stone for Deluge is my sticking point, since O-Stone can clear out non-creature permanents.
TBH, I wouldnt cut any of those. OStone is an important reset button that we need. If you're running lose x draw x effects you either run all or none of them, so I wouldnt just cut Muse.
Cutting koko puffs for Merchant isnt right, you want to have both available to you to answer GY hate.
JMDT has stated a few times that Bloodline Keeper was more of a pet card from when his deck was more budget/vampire heavy. Most of us have already cut geth and not looked back. I like harvester, but his cmc is too high for the effect when I run Bob.
You dont need that many sac outlets. Im usually happy with just Phyrexian Altar. DHG is my secondary one, and an allstar at that.
I fail to see how Bob is better than Graveborn Muse in this format. The odds of him coming down earlier than Graveborn Muse are pretty slim. Bob also dies to just about everything that Muse dies to.
On another note, I don't see any discussion of Jet Medallion in this thread. I've been playing the Emerald variety in my Yeva deck and it is incredible. The effect is subtle enough that it doesn't automatically get blown up like a Gauntlet of Power or even a Gilded Lotus would, and it very quietly saves a ton of mana over time.
Personally, I'd just run both. They'll both draw you 1-2 cards before dying. If someone lets him stick in hopes that you'll draw something 7 cmc you usually just win from sheer card advantage.
Ive tried Jet medallion! I was really excited for it actually. After testing for about a month I came to this conclusion: We usually only cast 1, maybe 2, black spells per turn. The rare occasion of 2 just wasnt worth it. We run too many artifacts. Its better off being a mana rock that taps for 1. It lets us Living Death combo with 1 creature less, but generally that isnt a problem.
My biggest problem with it was that you cant use it to activate chainer. Often times I just draw a card and so go on my turn, and leave all my mana up for EOT chainer activations.
In any other MBC EDH deck I'd probably run the medallion though. Especially if I were running Yawg Win.
I have a really awesome german one too, "Anthrazitmedaillon."
So instead of making another thread I will post my version of this that I am really digging in here.
<DECK>
There is some stuff I want for it like some of the better tutors that no one near me is trading and I don't feel like buying at the moment but other than that I really enjoy how it plays.
Beseech The Queen and Dimir House Guard are awesome budget tutors you can get. The latter being a recurrable sac outlet is too good to pass up.
The biggest thing I would say about your decklist is cutting some of the fatties and higher CMC stuff to streamline the decklist more, and adding the draw 2 lose 2 cards.
I'd remove the lands that dont help your cabal coffers. IE goat maker, rogue's passage, and temple of the false god. Im not sure if Terramorphic expanse is worth it w/o land recursion. I play fetch lands, but really only because I want the shuffle for Sensei's Divining Top and to recur with Crucible of Worlds. Terramorphic Expanse is a great way to ramp EOT with leftover mana thats pretty cheap to get your hands on as well.
I see your point about Jet Medallion. I was going to try out Pontiff of Blight as well, but you are correct in that we really don't cast that many spells.
Another card I don't see much discussion on is Wurmcoil Engine. I've been running it because it's great for life gain and making lots of fodder for sacrificing, but now that I think about it, Gary is probably a lot better at gaining life.
I never played wurmcoil just cuz he goes infinite.
Hes 3 mana for Phyrexian Altar, activates chainer infinite times, with blood artist you kill the table while staying at the same amount of life.
In a more cutthroat meta I'd definitely play him though! Probably Grave Titan too.
I never played wurmcoil just cuz he goes infinite.
Hes 3 mana for Phyrexian Altar, activates chainer infinite times, with blood artist you kill the table while staying at the same amount of life.
In a more cutthroat meta I'd definitely play him though! Probably Grave Titan too.
Wow, I totally missed that infinite combo with Wurmcoil and Grave Titan. I don't even consider going for infinite combos anymore, but now that I've been enlightened, I think I just found a cut for Gary.
One more card for discussion: Rise of the Dark Realms. On paper I can see a lot of potential.
Questions for Throst54 and other Chainer players...
Mindslicer & Kagemaro, First to Suffer really don't coincide that well together. Have you had any issues with these guys and their non-willingness to co-exist?
Questions for Throst54 and other Chainer players...
Mindslicer & Kagemaro, First to Suffer really don't coincide that well together. Have you had any issues with these guys and their non-willingness to co-exist?
Well, I run a much more draw-spell heavy version than most on the boards here, so I do not play Slicer (he was in my first few versions before all of the card draw), but I actually think it interacts very well with Kagemaro. Both on board, pop Maro the turn before yours, goodbye board, goodbye hands, you are the first to draw and play spells. This means unopposed whatever you draw or unopposed Chainer.
Hero's Downfall I think is a fine card. Very blue collar, meat and potatoes style of card. If you are light on spot removal, I think it is a fine pick up. The planeswalker clause to me is just an added bonus, not a reason to run it. If you need to deal with lots of planeswalkers, you need a strategy to put damage on folks. I really like a few other cards for black spot removal, but having a reasonably costed, instant speed, no-clause spot removal spell that also has added versatility is nice. If I owned one I would probably find a slot for it, but it does not excite me enough to bother picking one up.
As for Ophiomancer, I'm just not sure what it really does. It seems like a card that gets flagged because it acts similarly to other cards we like, but I don't think this one actually has any particular function. I already cut Bitterblossom from my list, which seems like an almost exclusively better card.
Withering Boon I never tested because whenever I saw people on here talking about it, I just always assumed it was expensive. Not the case, so I need to pick one up!
I feel like if youre playing a ton of card draw mindslicer is even better. It just means you'll recover faster than anyone else.
At first glance they look to be counter intuitive of each other, but as Mr Coupon stated, they actually work just fine. The only time they dont work well together is if they are both on the board and they kill Mindslicer. Even then though you just sac Kagemaru in response and wipe the whole board. If kagemaru isnt big enough to wipe the whole board, you probably dont care much that you're losing him.
If theres a ton of planeswalkers in your meta go for Heros Downfall. Otherwise I'd go for dismember or sickening shoal. To me, removal is for killing those guys early, early game that get out of control too quickly. After that you wipe the board all the time and save that spot removal for combo pieces or hasty beats.
Granted, if you dont think the -x/-x will be big enough for your meta you need to find something different. Snuff Out is another great option.
TL;DR is meta dependent.
The cool thing about Ophiomancer is that he reads *every* upkeep.
If you have some sort of engine that you can use to sac a dude on each turn, like attrition maybe, he can be good. He's definitely a stax piece. I dont see myself running him though.
Withering Boon is amazing! My favorite shenanigan I pulled once was saccing 5 dudes for 3 mana to chain Rune Scarred into play finding withering boon to counter my opponents game winning creature. Always having an answer even with an empty hand is great.
On that subject, has anyone tried out Null Brooch?
I've asked people a few times if they've tried it out, but havent myself.
Thats something that wouldnt work particularly well with Kagemaru, but would be just fine with Mindslicer and Blood Scrivener.
I feel like if youre playing a ton of card draw mindslicer is even better. It just means you'll recover faster than anyone else.
At first glance they look to be counter intuitive of each other, but as Mr Coupon stated, they actually work just fine. The only time they dont work well together is if they are both on the board and they kill Mindslicer. Even then though you just sac Kagemaru in response and wipe the whole board. If kagemaru isnt big enough to wipe the whole board, you probably dont care much that you're losing him.
If theres a ton of planeswalkers in your meta go for Heros Downfall. Otherwise I'd go for dismember or sickening shoal. To me, removal is for killing those guys early, early game that get out of control too quickly. After that you wipe the board all the time and save that spot removal for combo pieces or hasty beats.
Granted, if you dont think the -x/-x will be big enough for your meta you need to find something different. Snuff Out is another great option.
TL;DR is meta dependent.
The cool thing about Ophiomancer is that he reads *every* upkeep.
If you have some sort of engine that you can use to sac a dude on each turn, like attrition maybe, he can be good. He's definitely a stax piece. I dont see myself running him though.
A couple of quick thoughts: regarding Slicer and our draw, our draw spells tend to be lesser in quality and less numerous than draw spells, so I don't want to try to match them off of the top of the deck, and also my build at least tends to run the cheap, early draw as a means to supplement early game ramp and smooth out draws, so I tend to do a lot of drawing *pre* Slicer, which is definitely the wrong order ;p
Just to add to the spot removal conversation, I would also highly tout Slaughter Pact. Not for every metagame, but this card is just nuts if you aren't facing a lot of creatures as your required targets of spot removal. Great safety net. Love tapping out and killing stuff. Very similar to the aforementioned Snuff Out in that regard.
And Ophiomancer kinda bugs me because it is not particularly abusable (max of one guy per turn, is turned off if the guy doesn't die, so max of one guy at a time), worse defensively than it sounds (ok, deathtouch, cool, but it still stops zero evasion). If you are running a stax-heavy build, or are hell-bent on Contamination locking chumps, then it should fit your build, but it does not excite me as a proactive card. Fine niche card if it happens to fit an individual build.
If we can keep recurring and sacrificing mindslicer were not too worried about blue recovering faster. Our card draw is small, so we'll likely be able to use everything we draw before we sac the slicer again.
Hi.. I really Like your deck!
But i have a question for you... Why you can play Crypt Chast if the color identity it's black? He have in her tex a white simbol.. In my play grp we don't use that for this reason.. We wrong?
PS: sorry for my english But i'm italian And i don't Like to use google traslate
You can play Crypt Ghast because the white mana symbol is in the reminder text and reminder text doesn't count towards color identity.
What are the options for this deck against a turn 2 Ground Seal?
The options for this are the same as the options for any other enchantment at any other point in the game: find a colorless removal spell like Karn Liberated, Spine of Ish Sah, or Oblivion Stone.
It doesn't really matter what turn the Ground Seal comes down. Chainer doesn't really need to go off quickly every game. Sometimes it's better just to sit back, wait for the white player to wrath the board, and then use the opponents' yards against them.
For Lists, Click Here EDH: GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU. UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax RW: Gisela, Boros Control RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?! B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
I'm still amazed that no one runs Altar of Dementia this card so powerful it's absurd. It helps fuel Chainer while making target yard (including our own) larger. It also acts as a win condition. Just an example, I have Chainer in play in a 4 person game, I cast Puppeteer Clique gaining a Sepulchral Primordial from an opponents graveyard. Getting cards like Bogardan Hellkite, Karmic Guide, Sylvan Primordial and any dude from my yard (can be another Sepulc or a Kokusho, the Evening Star. With sacing all of these creatures then saccing the Clique with the persist it's like 40 cards off the top. Pay, 3 life and BBB and do it again.
I've had this type of senerio multiple times. This is an above average situation but even with my own Sepulchral Primordial, gaining lets say an average 4 toughness creature from my opponents in a 4 player game is 17 cards per Chainer activation.Not to mention any EtB triggers you may have.
Private Mod Note
():
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BGUSULTI ELEVENSBGU
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I also run Altar of Dementia and I will confirm that it is quite possibly the best sac outlet for this deck. My list primarily focuses on harvesting creatures from other people and the Altar makes sure that everyone has something in the yard at all times.
I also run Altar of Dementia and I will confirm that it is quite possibly the best sac outlet for this deck. My list primarily focuses on harvesting creatures from other people and the Altar makes sure that everyone has something in the yard at all times.
My playgroup whole heartily agrees that's it's the scariest most powerful card in my deck. It's a must answer when it hits the board.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGUSULTI ELEVENSBGU
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
What are the options for this deck against a turn 2 Ground Seal?
I find the best way to outgun graveyard hate is to play powerful MBC cards, all of which have good synergy with, but are not tooled specifically for the cute Chainer loops. If we don't focus on setting up loops or put too many eggs in the reanimation basket, we are far more resilient against graveyard hate. The nice thing about Chainer, is that him plus mana is a scary reanimation deck. No outside assistance needed. So my philosophy is to play powerful cards that win games, and use Chainer midgame or lategame after our (or our opponents') wrath effects have ground down the game into a battle of attrition. Nothing wins attrition wars like reusing everyone's best creatures. Back that strategy up with massive, scary discard spells, a strong tutor suite, and the best cards we have access to by tapping for :symb:, and have a deck that is a degenerate reanimator deck without dedicating a single slot to being a reanimator deck. That in my opinion, is the best way to add resiliency against potential hatred.
I find the best way to outgun graveyard hate is to play powerful MBC cards, all of which have good synergy with, but are not tooled specifically for the cute Chainer loops. If we don't focus on setting up loops or put too many eggs in the reanimation basket, we are far more resilient against graveyard hate. The nice thing about Chainer, is that him plus mana is a scary reanimation deck. No outside assistance needed. So my philosophy is to play powerful cards that win games, and use Chainer midgame or lategame after our (or our opponents') wrath effects have ground down the game into a battle of attrition. Nothing wins attrition wars like reusing everyone's best creatures. Back that strategy up with massive, scary discard spells, a strong tutor suite, and the best cards we have access to by tapping for :symb:, and have a deck that is a degenerate reanimator deck without dedicating a single slot to being a reanimator deck. That in my opinion, is the best way to add resiliency against potential hatred.
Well said. I run a ton of tutors (as mono black should) along with a ton of Sweepers. I find in most games. I answer other peoples threats turn after turn. Then, when it's time Chainer goes to work. I've won games where I fought off Double Leyline of the Void before. The key is to be patient and know what your deck can do. Mono black can be VERY resiliant. The discard however, unless it's Mindslicer I've found that too many decks can come back from discard. So I do not put a ton of faith into it cept for a Slicer lock.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGUSULTI ELEVENSBGU
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
Well said. I run a ton of tutors (as mono black should) along with a ton of Sweepers. I find in most games. I answer other peoples threats turn after turn. Then, when it's time Chainer goes to work. I've won games where I fought off Double Leyline of the Void before. The key is to be patient and know what your deck can do. Mono black can be VERY resiliant. The discard however, unless it's Mindslicer I've found that too many decks can come back from discard. So I do not put a ton of faith into it cept for a Slicer lock.
I tend not to use discard to shut people down permanently, but rather to make sure that what I want to happen is going to happen, or to counter a significant draw spell from an opponent. You are absolutely correct that if you shellac someone's hand, then let them sit in topdeck mode for 5 turns, there is a pretty darn good chance you will undo a good portion of the work you discard spell did. However, aside from just fueling graves for Chainer, it means our Karns, our All is Dusts, our Exsanguinates, and our tutors/tutor targets resolve against those permission decks at the table. If they counter our ramp, they can rarely counter the discard. If they counter the discard, they can rarely counter follow up spell we play because our ramp enables multiple splashy plays each turn.
I'm still amazed that no one runs Altar of Dementia this card so powerful it's absurd. It helps fuel Chainer while making target yard (including our own) larger. It also acts as a win condition. Just an example, I have Chainer in play in a 4 person game, I cast Puppeteer Clique gaining a Sepulchral Primordial from an opponents graveyard. Getting cards like Bogardan Hellkite, Karmic Guide, Sylvan Primordial and any dude from my yard (can be another Sepulc or a Kokusho, the Evening Star. With sacing all of these creatures then saccing the Clique with the persist it's like 40 cards off the top. Pay, 3 life and BBB and do it again.
I've had this type of senerio multiple times. This is an above average situation but even with my own Sepulchral Primordial, gaining lets say an average 4 toughness creature from my opponents in a 4 player game is 17 cards per Chainer activation.Not to mention any EtB triggers you may have.
This has inspired me to try the Primordial and Altar of Dementia.
What are the options for this deck against a turn 2 Ground Seal?
Ignore it until you get Karn or Oblivion Stone. Atleast no one will be exiling cards from your yard.
We play enough alternate wincons that even if we cant get rid of it we can still win.
If you look at my list, its a lot more artifact heavy and does indeed run Salvaging station.
Its good to note that with Salvaging Station and Codex Shredder you dont need XHD to go infinite.
Its a great budget option.
@Altar of Dementia
Its a great sac outlet. I dont often steal people's creatures unless I need a blocker or they have eternal witness. If you like to play in other people's GYs its definitely a good option (or your playgrooup has a lot of lifegain too i suppose).
I generally just prefer to limit the 'horrible topdecks,' since I usually B-line for mindslicer then let chainer get me value.
Currently my no cost sac outlets are Dimir House Guard and Phyrexian Altar.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but why don't you run Blood Funnel and/or Heartless Summoning? Blood Funnel, at least, can act as a sacrifice outlet OR a way to purposely place stuff in your GY, plus it lowers the cmc of stuff. Plus, since nightmares get +1/+1, recursion via Chainer makes Heartless Summoning a free sacrifice outlet for your 1/1's while cheapening the rest. Upon inspection, it'd really only affect the first use of Fleshbag and Blood Artist, but making them 1 cmc leaves more mana for reanimation. I'd say it's a toss up o.O
If you had more 'free' (aka infinitely abusable) sac outlets, I'd suggest Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, since only Sheoldred and the Rune Scarred Demon would outright kill him. But you could get some pretty intense value from those Thrulls..
I disagree with the notion of cutting Koko just because Gray Merchant does the same function a little better. Both are still super effective at winning the game, and the odds of someone pointing a grave-hater at Chainer and catching one or the other seems likely. Even the OP mentioned that exiling Koko from the yard is sad times.
Personally, I've never really been a fan of Geth in a Chainer deck (or vice versa). Geth is basically a functional reprint of Chainer, except you never really have to worry about Chainer getting exiled, and there are enough tutors and sac outlets in mono-black that you shouldn't have to worry about getting him tucked. Plus, Geth costs a ton of mana to cast and to activate. I'd much rather cut Geth than Koko.
I fail to see how Bob is better than Graveborn Muse in this format. The odds of him coming down earlier than Graveborn Muse are pretty slim. Bob also dies to just about everything that Muse dies to.
On another note, I don't see any discussion of Jet Medallion in this thread. I've been playing the Emerald variety in my Yeva deck and it is incredible. The effect is subtle enough that it doesn't automatically get blown up like a Gauntlet of Power or even a Gilded Lotus would, and it very quietly saves a ton of mana over time.
5 Chainer, Dementia Master
Creatures
1 Viscera Seer
6 Grave Titan
4 Solemn Simulacrum
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
3 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
5 Bloodgift Demon
4 Crypt Ghast
2 Nezumi Graverobber
8 Scion of Darkness
7 Butcher of Malakir
2 Reassembling Skeleton
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Disciple of Bolas
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
6 Steel Hellkite
7 Sheoldred, Whispering One
5 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
5 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
6 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
3 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Thought Gorger
4 Bane of the Living
6 Massacre Wurm
4 Mindslicer
8 Avatar of Woe
6 Harvester of Souls
4 Liliana of the Dark Realms
Artifacts
3 Phyrexian Altar
5 Gilded Lotus
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sol Ring
1 Elixir of Immortality
5 Lifeline
1 Expidition Map
3 Ashnod's Altar
2 Strionic Resonator
2 Swiftfoot Boots
3 Cloudstone Curio
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
3 Darksteel Ingot
1 Skullclamp
3 Rings of Brighthearth
Instant
1 Dark Ritual
Sorcery
5 Living Death
3 Bitter Ordeal
4 Diabolic Tutor
5 Diabolic Revelation
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Black Sun's Zenith
8 Army of the Damned
8 Decree of Pain
5 Increasing Ambition
2 Stitch Together
6 Twilight's Call
6 Life's Finale
7 All Is Dust
3 Praetor's Grasp
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Grave Pact
3 Attrition
3 Necropotence
Land
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Barren Moor
1 Strip Mine
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Temple of the False God
1 Evolving Wilds
29 Swamps
There is some stuff I want for it like some of the better tutors that no one near me is trading and I don't feel like buying at the moment but other than that I really enjoy how it plays.
2 Blood Artist
4 Sangromancer
4 Falkenrath Noble
4 Disciple of Bolas
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2x Exsanguinate
Removal (13)
0 Sickening Shoal
1 Dismember
2 Withering Boon
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Damnation
4 Mutilate
5 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
6 Massacre Wurm
6 Duplicant
7 Karn Liberated
7 Sheoldred, Whispering One
7 All is Dust
MANAS (12)
0 Mana Crypt
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Mind Stone
3 Phyrexian Altar
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Liliana of the Dark Realms
6 Caged Sun
6 Nirkana Revenant
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
4 Dimir House Guard
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
CARD DRAW (11)
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
2 Night's Whisper
2 Sign in Blood
2 Dark Confidant
2 Blood Scrivener
3 Dark Tutelage
3 Read the Bones
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Infernal Tribute
3 Necropotence
4 Graveborn Muse
5 Memory Jar
Skullclamp/Post/Tribute Food (2)
2 Reassembling Skeleton
2 Bloodghast
Recursion (7)
1 Codex Shredder
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trading Post
4 Strands of Night
4 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
5 Living Death
6 Salvaging Station
1 Pithing Needle
2 Imp's Mischief
3 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Mindslicer
LANDS (36)
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Terrain Generator
1 Strip Mine
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Deserted Temple
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Vesuva
24 Swamp
Generally speaking when playing the deck I first try to establish some kind of draw engine then a mana doubler, then take control of the game.
You'll notice that I play a lot of spot removal.
Staving off quick aggro generals is really important. Kaalia, Jhoria, Azusa, Edric, etc, cant be on the table early game. Late game you dont really care. The cheaper the removal the better, so you can still further your board state.
Withering Boon is, well, a huge boon. It looks bad on paper, in reality its great. Most every creature has ETB effects these days, so simply letting them resolve then killing it isnt good enough.
We have hard enough of a time keeping up with ramp players, letting them resolve an early terastodon doesnt cut it.
If im playing against a heavy Blue table, the first thing I try to stick is Mindslicer. We play great in topdeck mode, especially with all the draw 1 during upkeep we play. If you can recurr and sac mindslicer during the draw step of the blue player you'll be able to win easily.
Against aggro you want to go board wipe happy. Wipe the board often, look for your guys that recur and gain life. Dont be afraid to Exsanguinate for less than lethal. XHD can always get it back for you later on.
Try to get out Kagemaru or Oblivion Stone and sit on it for as long as possible to prevent them from trying an alpha strike.
Against Combo go all out. Lose as much life as you want digging for your combo pieces. Assume if they combo you die, so getting out all your bob effects and what not is the best idea. Dont forget to swing with them.
The main combo of the deck is looping Living Death with XHD and Phyrexian Altar while having KoKo, merchant, blood artist, or falkenwrath noble active. Many times you'll just have enough mana to loop koko or gray with chainer and a sac outlet alone. Its good to note that before you cast Living Death you should always do a GY check. Steal any problematic ETB/combo creatures your opponents control, then sacrifice chainer to exile them.
The deck can actually go Aggro pretty easily as well. kagemaru, first to suffer can get huge. Kagemaru and Chainer in play, cast Disciple of Bolas Sac'ing kagemaru. Double your hand size. Sac Bolas, chainer them both back. Double your already doubled handsize. Do it EOT to have a huge attacker on your turn... Not to mention a massive hand. Its a great way to gain life too.
Liliana of the Realms[/cards] is great for alpha striking as well. Most people dont expect it either b/c you usually just use her to hit land drops and ult for tons of mana. Its possible to recur Solemn Simulacrum enough times for 18 swamps in play, and swing with a 21/21 chainer.
Dont forget XHD has horsemanship as well (though him being exiled is usually why I have to go aggro in the first place)
Nirkvana Revenant is a great card to accelerate into and then go aggro with as well.
I really dont think that you need to play any creatures in this deck purely for their 'beatface' value. The utility ones we run work just fine, and often times your opponents have good enough ones to steal.
Generally, the only creatures of your opponents worth stealing are eternal Witness, Oracle of Mul Daya and Teratrodon. (unless its a creature you already run, duh :p)
Obviously, there are other situations where you might want other creatures, but these guys you almost always want.
TBH, I wouldnt cut any of those. OStone is an important reset button that we need. If you're running lose x draw x effects you either run all or none of them, so I wouldnt just cut Muse.
Cutting koko puffs for Merchant isnt right, you want to have both available to you to answer GY hate.
From the OP I'd cut these cards, in this order:
JMDT has stated a few times that Bloodline Keeper was more of a pet card from when his deck was more budget/vampire heavy. Most of us have already cut geth and not looked back. I like harvester, but his cmc is too high for the effect when I run Bob.
You dont need that many sac outlets. Im usually happy with just Phyrexian Altar. DHG is my secondary one, and an allstar at that.
Personally, I'd just run both. They'll both draw you 1-2 cards before dying. If someone lets him stick in hopes that you'll draw something 7 cmc you usually just win from sheer card advantage.
Ive tried Jet medallion! I was really excited for it actually. After testing for about a month I came to this conclusion: We usually only cast 1, maybe 2, black spells per turn. The rare occasion of 2 just wasnt worth it. We run too many artifacts. Its better off being a mana rock that taps for 1. It lets us Living Death combo with 1 creature less, but generally that isnt a problem.
My biggest problem with it was that you cant use it to activate chainer. Often times I just draw a card and so go on my turn, and leave all my mana up for EOT chainer activations.
In any other MBC EDH deck I'd probably run the medallion though. Especially if I were running Yawg Win.
I have a really awesome german one too, "Anthrazitmedaillon."
If you want infinite mana, add Deserted Temple to play w/ Rings of Brighthearth and Coffers. Also, Nim Deathmantle with Ashnod's Altar and anything that makes 2 tokens.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed does amazing things with Phyrexian Altar and Living Death.
Hes number 1 on your "acquire" list. He can be budget replaced with Codex Shredder and Salvaging Station though in the mean time.
Beseech The Queen and Dimir House Guard are awesome budget tutors you can get. The latter being a recurrable sac outlet is too good to pass up.
The biggest thing I would say about your decklist is cutting some of the fatties and higher CMC stuff to streamline the decklist more, and adding the draw 2 lose 2 cards.
I'd remove the lands that dont help your cabal coffers. IE goat maker, rogue's passage, and temple of the false god. Im not sure if Terramorphic expanse is worth it w/o land recursion. I play fetch lands, but really only because I want the shuffle for Sensei's Divining Top and to recur with Crucible of Worlds.
Terramorphic Expanse is a great way to ramp EOT with leftover mana thats pretty cheap to get your hands on as well.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Another card I don't see much discussion on is Wurmcoil Engine. I've been running it because it's great for life gain and making lots of fodder for sacrificing, but now that I think about it, Gary is probably a lot better at gaining life.
I never played wurmcoil just cuz he goes infinite.
Hes 3 mana for Phyrexian Altar, activates chainer infinite times, with blood artist you kill the table while staying at the same amount of life.
In a more cutthroat meta I'd definitely play him though! Probably Grave Titan too.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Wow, I totally missed that infinite combo with Wurmcoil and Grave Titan. I don't even consider going for infinite combos anymore, but now that I've been enlightened, I think I just found a cut for Gary.
One more card for discussion: Rise of the Dark Realms. On paper I can see a lot of potential.
Mindslicer & Kagemaro, First to Suffer really don't coincide that well together. Have you had any issues with these guys and their non-willingness to co-exist?
Also... Hero's Downfall & Ophiomancer. What do you think about these?
Withering Boon? Didn't know it existed, I am going to try it out! Thanx!
Jet Medallion. Yep, found out the hard way that I would much rather have a Charcoal Diamond.
I write EDH articles on EDHREC and MTGCasualPlay. I hope you like them!
EDH DECKLISTS
RGWUril, the Miststalker WBRKaalia of the Vast Sunforger WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUGDerevi, Empyrial TacticianWUBRGSliver Queen EDH
UB Wrexial, the Risen DeepWU Hanna, Ship's NavigatorWGSigarda, Host of Herons EnchantressWULavinia, of the Tenth
RRPurphoros, God of the ForgeBBChainer, Dementia MasterWWEight-and-a-Half TailsUUMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectGGJolrael, Empress of Beasts
BGVhati il-DalRWTajic, Blade of the LegionUBRZurgo HelmsmasherUBDaxos the ReturnedWBKarlov of the Ghost CouncilWUBruna, Light of Alabaster
RWAurelia Angel Tribal URJhoira Chaos Deck UGVorel +1 Counters BRGProssh Tokens
UBRGwendlyn Discard EDH URG Surrak Dragonclaw UBLazav Mill EDH WUBrago Flicker EDH Deck
Well, I run a much more draw-spell heavy version than most on the boards here, so I do not play Slicer (he was in my first few versions before all of the card draw), but I actually think it interacts very well with Kagemaro. Both on board, pop Maro the turn before yours, goodbye board, goodbye hands, you are the first to draw and play spells. This means unopposed whatever you draw or unopposed Chainer.
Hero's Downfall I think is a fine card. Very blue collar, meat and potatoes style of card. If you are light on spot removal, I think it is a fine pick up. The planeswalker clause to me is just an added bonus, not a reason to run it. If you need to deal with lots of planeswalkers, you need a strategy to put damage on folks. I really like a few other cards for black spot removal, but having a reasonably costed, instant speed, no-clause spot removal spell that also has added versatility is nice. If I owned one I would probably find a slot for it, but it does not excite me enough to bother picking one up.
As for Ophiomancer, I'm just not sure what it really does. It seems like a card that gets flagged because it acts similarly to other cards we like, but I don't think this one actually has any particular function. I already cut Bitterblossom from my list, which seems like an almost exclusively better card.
Withering Boon I never tested because whenever I saw people on here talking about it, I just always assumed it was expensive. Not the case, so I need to pick one up!
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
At first glance they look to be counter intuitive of each other, but as Mr Coupon stated, they actually work just fine. The only time they dont work well together is if they are both on the board and they kill Mindslicer. Even then though you just sac Kagemaru in response and wipe the whole board. If kagemaru isnt big enough to wipe the whole board, you probably dont care much that you're losing him.
If theres a ton of planeswalkers in your meta go for Heros Downfall. Otherwise I'd go for dismember or sickening shoal. To me, removal is for killing those guys early, early game that get out of control too quickly. After that you wipe the board all the time and save that spot removal for combo pieces or hasty beats.
Granted, if you dont think the -x/-x will be big enough for your meta you need to find something different. Snuff Out is another great option.
TL;DR is meta dependent.
The cool thing about Ophiomancer is that he reads *every* upkeep.
If you have some sort of engine that you can use to sac a dude on each turn, like attrition maybe, he can be good. He's definitely a stax piece. I dont see myself running him though.
Withering Boon is amazing! My favorite shenanigan I pulled once was saccing 5 dudes for 3 mana to chain Rune Scarred into play finding withering boon to counter my opponents game winning creature. Always having an answer even with an empty hand is great.
On that subject, has anyone tried out Null Brooch?
I've asked people a few times if they've tried it out, but havent myself.
Thats something that wouldnt work particularly well with Kagemaru, but would be just fine with Mindslicer and Blood Scrivener.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
A couple of quick thoughts: regarding Slicer and our draw, our draw spells tend to be lesser in quality and less numerous than
Just to add to the spot removal conversation, I would also highly tout Slaughter Pact. Not for every metagame, but this card is just nuts if you aren't facing a lot of
And Ophiomancer kinda bugs me because it is not particularly abusable (max of one guy per turn, is turned off if the guy doesn't die, so max of one guy at a time), worse defensively than it sounds (ok, deathtouch, cool, but it still stops zero evasion). If you are running a stax-heavy build, or are hell-bent on Contamination locking chumps, then it should fit your build, but it does not excite me as a proactive card. Fine niche card if it happens to fit an individual build.
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
Im going to try out Null Brooch anyways and Imp's Mischief while im at it.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
You can play Crypt Ghast because the white mana symbol is in the reminder text and reminder text doesn't count towards color identity.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
The options for this are the same as the options for any other enchantment at any other point in the game: find a colorless removal spell like Karn Liberated, Spine of Ish Sah, or Oblivion Stone.
It doesn't really matter what turn the Ground Seal comes down. Chainer doesn't really need to go off quickly every game. Sometimes it's better just to sit back, wait for the white player to wrath the board, and then use the opponents' yards against them.
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EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
I've had this type of senerio multiple times. This is an above average situation but even with my own Sepulchral Primordial, gaining lets say an average 4 toughness creature from my opponents in a 4 player game is 17 cards per Chainer activation.Not to mention any EtB triggers you may have.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
My playgroup whole heartily agrees that's it's the scariest most powerful card in my deck. It's a must answer when it hits the board.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I find the best way to outgun graveyard hate is to play powerful MBC cards, all of which have good synergy with, but are not tooled specifically for the cute Chainer loops. If we don't focus on setting up loops or put too many eggs in the reanimation basket, we are far more resilient against graveyard hate. The nice thing about Chainer, is that him plus mana is a scary reanimation deck. No outside assistance needed. So my philosophy is to play powerful cards that win games, and use Chainer midgame or lategame after our (or our opponents') wrath effects have ground down the game into a battle of attrition. Nothing wins attrition wars like reusing everyone's best creatures. Back that strategy up with massive, scary discard spells, a strong tutor suite, and the best cards we have access to by tapping for :symb:, and have a deck that is a degenerate reanimator deck without dedicating a single slot to being a reanimator deck. That in my opinion, is the best way to add resiliency against potential hatred.
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
Well said. I run a ton of tutors (as mono black should) along with a ton of Sweepers. I find in most games. I answer other peoples threats turn after turn. Then, when it's time Chainer goes to work. I've won games where I fought off Double Leyline of the Void before. The key is to be patient and know what your deck can do. Mono black can be VERY resiliant. The discard however, unless it's Mindslicer I've found that too many decks can come back from discard. So I do not put a ton of faith into it cept for a Slicer lock.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I tend not to use discard to shut people down permanently, but rather to make sure that what I want to happen is going to happen, or to counter a significant draw spell from an opponent. You are absolutely correct that if you shellac someone's hand, then let them sit in topdeck mode for 5 turns, there is a pretty darn good chance you will undo a good portion of the work you discard spell did. However, aside from just fueling graves for Chainer, it means our Karns, our All is Dusts, our Exsanguinates, and our tutors/tutor targets resolve against those permission decks at the table. If they counter our ramp, they can rarely counter the discard. If they counter the discard, they can rarely counter follow up spell we play because our ramp enables multiple splashy plays each turn.
[EDH]
[EDH]
[EDH]
This has inspired me to try the Primordial and Altar of Dementia.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Ignore it until you get Karn or Oblivion Stone. Atleast no one will be exiling cards from your yard.
We play enough alternate wincons that even if we cant get rid of it we can still win.
If you look at my list, its a lot more artifact heavy and does indeed run Salvaging station.
Its good to note that with Salvaging Station and Codex Shredder you dont need XHD to go infinite.
Its a great budget option.
@Altar of Dementia
Its a great sac outlet. I dont often steal people's creatures unless I need a blocker or they have eternal witness. If you like to play in other people's GYs its definitely a good option (or your playgrooup has a lot of lifegain too i suppose).
I generally just prefer to limit the 'horrible topdecks,' since I usually B-line for mindslicer then let chainer get me value.
Currently my no cost sac outlets are Dimir House Guard and Phyrexian Altar.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
If you had more 'free' (aka infinitely abusable) sac outlets, I'd suggest Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, since only Sheoldred and the Rune Scarred Demon would outright kill him. But you could get some pretty intense value from those Thrulls..