I consider it the best answer against combo elves, and still stand by that assessment. The card slows them down to a crawl, usually long enough to lock them out. Outside of that it has minor applications against goblins (don't really advise much) or against sneak attack, but not a ton else. And certainly not mainboard material unless every other person in your meta plays combo elves.
Hmm, I hadn't considered it as a potential answer to elves. I was packing the third solitary in the board for elves, but I think I'll give this a try. Might also be something to board in vs ANT (not that it is an ideal answer against them, but if it's in the board anyway, might as well bring it in to screw with their artifact mana).
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Crop Rotation
1 Suppression Field
1 City of Solitude
4 Chrome Mox
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Blind Obedience
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
3 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wild Growth
2 Exploration
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Words of War
1 Taiga
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Story Circle
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
In terms of some of my more interesting choices:
- Blind obedience slows down storm by forcing their artifact mana to come in to play tapped
- Nykthos has been excellent because it allows me to plow sanctum mana into green
- I like the Emrakul/Karakas win con main deck, because it gives me a few more outs to show and tell. The deck already has a great match-up against traditional show and tell decks, but an extra edge doesn't hurt.
Took me a minute to click there. I was thinking "what does it do vs ANT?". Forgot that it tapped artifacts as well.
Hey it's my first time posting here, but a long time enchantress player. Blind Obedience does little to nothing vs. ANT. It only shuts down their Lotus Petals for a turn. Since Lion's Eye Diamond does not need to tap for mana (sacrifice only) Blind is useless, and LED is what you want to stop anyhow (Hellbent.)
I have been on the fence about humility for a while now, but every time I go to take it out, I happen upon ALL the creature decks. last week at our weekly legacy tourney, I versed a creature toolbox deck, and won only because of it. city used to be in the sideboard, but the huge amount of control decks in the area forced me to put it main.
I rather like the wish-list above - might have to try that out.
Yesterday I went 2-4 at the Legacy Open in Providence. Had a fun time despite my sub-par results, though multiple times I had people top deck their one-outers in order to prevent me from winning/getting the lock down. I played six different decks in the six rounds: RUG Delver (loss), Show and tell (loss), Metalworker (loss), Death n Taxes (win), Storm Combo (loss), and Mono Black Control (win). I can post my entire list later if anyone wants, but generally it's fairly standard Enchantress with WoW and sigil as the win cons. Honestly felt like I was very much in every game - I maindeck 3 Leyline of Sanctity, and that was hugely helpful more often than not. An example of my lack of luck is that I got Moat down against the Metalworker guy, with Sterling Grove in hand (he's got one turn to get rid of Moat)...he topdecks his one-of sideboarded O-Ring (he didn't have mana for Karn) and happened to have his Mox on the field, one of his few sources of white mana. He also had exactly five mana for his O-Ring to account for his pair of Lodestone Golems that Moat was holding back (I was at 5, but felt as though I'd stabilized with Moat and soon Grove/ability to tutor for what I needed next)... not sour grapes or anything, that's just the way Magic is sometimes, but I like my odds overall - just didn't work out yesterday. Similarly, I feel like I have reasonable game against SnT (Emrakul in my sideboard, main deck O'Rings and a Blind Obedience to shut down Sneak Attack, my shiny new Karakas that never showed up...hence liking the Living Wish idea) and Any-Delver.dec as anything that kills with creatures should be our strong point.
Anyway, fun was had, talked with the one other Enchantress player I saw there, and I think my play was good with no glaring miscues.
Hey, again I'm a long time enchantress player (several variants ...helm, Defense of the Heart, GWr, Dovescape...) but I have a few questions:
Is there any reason why this deck hasn't explored using Gitaxian Probe more?
I realize it is doing 2 damage to yourself, but in all versions the draw regardless of enchantress is a good thing. Additionally, The perfect information ca go a long way in playing around taxing counters, wasteland, of knowing when to pop [card]Sterling Grove[card]...
Is it really the 2 points of damage that prohibits it inclusion?
Secondly, Is there a resource pulled together somewhere on the internet on how to best board with enchantress for various archetypes? I know this would be fairly subjective, and I already have my certain plans, but i'm wondering if this resource could improve my play and card choices if it existed.
I understand the thought behind Gitaxian Probe, but I think we are better off jamming must-counter enchantment after must-counter enchantment.
My general boarding thoughts: Karmic Justice against any deck that shows you enchantment removal. Runed Halo againt show n tell, maybe delver. City of Solitude against anything with counters. Fourth elephant grass against any heavy creature decks. Wheel/rest in peace against graveyard based decks. I often board in RiP/Helm game 2 as no one seems to see it coming.
I maindeck a Choke and three Leylines, so those are easily removed against certain decks for better board cards.
Well, I usually find that the best way to assess "why not add" questions is another question.
What do we cut?
This question usually comes up in dredge (for some reason I've seen that question more times in Dredge discussions than in enchantress and goblins combined) and usually the answer to why its not run is that its just not good enough in comparison. For probe, without looking through a set of deckslists, the only other decks I can name with this kind of draw power are elves and spiral tide. When the deck is doing what its supposed to do, a good half our cards have "draw a card" tacked onto the end.
Yes, probe gives info, but if you're running naya toolbox, you can run stuff like City of Solitude and In the Eye of Chaos which basically mean that it doesn't matter how many counters they're holding, they can't use them. And in Bant, you're so focused that they probably can't run enough counters to to answer everything, and in the eye of chaos is actually easier to play.
You raise an excellent point. The value of an inclusion of a card is heavily tied to the exclusion of some other card, and therefore the value of the card can only be understood in context.
This build abandoned the toolbox in an effort to give rise to “get the engine online and draw to the win” mentality. I played this list a lot on MTGO, and racked up a bit more than a handful of 3-1’s but no 4-0’s.
This deck cannot consistently beat combo, and has difficulty with control. When it works it’s fun, but when faced with a faster clock, or heavy (or timely) stack control the deck can fall flat. Initially I tried fixing it with the sideboard, but nothing ever seemed to work out.
So this is where I am at today. I am trying to get ready for my local StarCity (Orlando) in January. I can play this pile, and try and meta the flex spots, and hope not to face combo or luck out against combo or I can challenge the progress we have made so far and try to get more lean.
The problem with City of Solitude and or In the Eye of Chaos is they effectively tempo yourself when you MAY not need to. In your tough MU you really can’t afford to make those faux pas.
So the thought occurred to me if I knew what I was up against could I play better / around the trouble decks to turn those losses into wins. I started playing with Gitaxian Probe in the super rough discovery list below:
This crosses both the toolbox approach with Probe and belief in the draw. This list gives us the ability to react to opponents hands. Opponent is playing ANT or TES? …Green Sun’s Zenith for Gaddock Teeg. I’m not saying it’s a perfect solution, but I wanted to know if anyone here has gone down this road, and can shed some insight before I proceed.
I have to admit playing the above list feels like playing with a more agile deck, and has saved me from some losses today. For example I ddin’t run my Argothian into a Spell Snare so I could potentially draw off my Wild Growth I just Green Suned for an Argothian Instead.
It’s doesn’t have everything yet though, and I’m still running it out there on MTGO to see what else it needs. It’s kind of like blowing it apart with probe in it to see if I come to the same conclusions.
See, that probe shell is running a few cards I've tried and found very, very mediocre. Emrakul tops that list, wall of blossoms close behind.
I mean, if we're playing a deck of enchantresses, why would we cut enchantments to run cards that are there to draw cards? Part of enchantress's edge is that it blanks all removal until it makes angels. So why put in wall of blossoms? You're playing a creature that enables their removal again. And if you say "I don't care if they use a swords on it", then why are you running it? If you're running a card that you don't care about losing, it needs to have one hell of an ability tacked to it. Same goes for Gaddock, who doesn't even stop storm that well. They'll just draw into chain of vapour, bounce him and go off anyway.
Also, I don't get how City and ITEOC tempo us? The deck's object is to play enchantments, and playing ones that let you play the rest of your turn or the rest of the current turn with impunity, that doesn't seem like tempo'ing ourselves, it seems like setting up the spell equivalent of sterling grove. Grove protects the permanents, city and eye protect the spells (and if you get it down, which isn't too hard, eye is a much better answer than gaddok for storm because it hits all their spells, not just tendrils, past and ad nauseam - chaining a gaddock costs 2, chaining an eye costs 4 and all their draw spells to get the the chain cost 2).
On Emrakul - This all comes back to your point above. The value the card provides for the slot it takes. I'm not a huge fan of Emrakul in enchantress either, but I'm testing it again for the following reasons.
1. I wanted to have an uncounterable win. I have had a few games where the deck lost because of a draw out when all my wins were countered. With Emrakul it is far less likely.
2. I wanted a win that could be cast over (or under) Gaddock (I'll get to this more later.)
3. I wanted a win that did not target a player. Many times people will play some sort of player shroud to protect against Helm.
I also saw that modified lists from the GW Helm list that did 4-0 the MTGO daily used it. So I tried it. I'm not 100% sold on it but it does give the deck more flexibility in ways I did not expect it to.
Without RIP in play you can not be Grindstoned or Brain freezed to death.
With the new Legend rule and maxing our the Serra's Sanctums it is FAR EASIER to power out an Emrakul than it was just a few short months ago. ...and that makes it far more viable as a plan b as opposed to the "all else fails" option it really was in months past.
On Wall of Blossoms - Wall of Blossoms is really a product of another evolution of the GW Helm list. As time progressed the GW Helm list gained more and more Green Sun's Zenith as a product of reducing the need to mulligan, playing through discard, and playing through countermagic. However, sometimes a Green Sun top deck can stagnate a game in that you can get a draw with it. The singleton Wall of Blossoms is an attempt to turn that first dud GSZ into a draw spell.
So far in testing that function has proven to be marginal. ...but the wall itself has flipped some games in my favor just to use as a wall till I can get Confinemt lock up. In the end i'm not sure if it will stay, but I do like that it cantrips on it's own, and it can turn GSZ into a draw.
On Gaddock - I'm not certain I like it main, or at all. I just want a reliable way to stop or stall combo till I can land Confinement lock. Again, this is all about the value the card provides in the slot, and since Gaddock is green (Green Sun's) the deck does get a good deal of mileage out of 1. In my MTGO testing the main thing it does is corners the big dig. i.e. Ad Nauseam, Time Spiral... or the finisher, Green Sun's, Natural Order pretty well. It's not perfect, but it does provide time for us to tutor up the second and third piece of hate, and in the mean time it's a clock.
To get similar mileage out of In the Eye of Chaos we would have to run 4 copies, and a potential 5 card in a Tropical to reliably be able to cast it in a timely manner. ...unless I'm missing something.
On my tempo comment - I was speaking to the idea of using City or Eye as a means to combat control. The fact is if you were playing blind (no opponent hand information) and you had the option of playing [cards]City of Solitude[/card] or Enchantress's Presence the correct play (if your using City to combat control) is to play your City of Solitude BEFORE you play your Enchantress's Presence to bait the counter of clear the path.
The issue with that is even if your City does resolve you gave up 1 future draw trigger, and a turn.
Whereas, if that [cards]City of Solitude[/card] were just a Green Sun's you would be ahead of the game. In other words it either eats the counter, or it doesn't. It really doesn't matter what the card is. ...and if that is the case your better with a Green Sun's in the early turns so you should max your deck your with Green Sun's before you add any City of Solitudes. This deck building decision is also better for other MU (hand disruption) where redundancy is essential.
All-in-all I'm looking for a version of Enchantress that has top level card selection, the ability to fight through control effectively, and something meaningfully crippling to faster decks. The above Probe list was an attempt at that.
Probe in General - Having tested Probe I can say that if nothing else it does give you the ability to be a better player, that is for sure.
Using the example above about the GSZ & Enchantress Presence lets say you also have Probe and a forest and you've already dropped a land and now have 3 mana on the board. You probe and you see the counter spell you are tying to beat is Spell Pierce and that is the only counter spell they have. Your opponent also has no clock on the board. You start with a Probe, and you see the Pierce, plus a stifle, and a Tarmogoyf. You on the other hand and draw into Wild Growth off the probe.
Here with the information I just gained I would play the growth, and pass forcing my opponent to leave stifle / Pierce mana up or drop Goyf if they don't hit a land. Whereas in the past I would have just jammed the GSZ into the Pierce, and hoped the Presence took next turn.
Have anyone been testing Mana Bloom as a 1 of? I have seen some lists running it, but haven't really figured out why it is as good as some people say. It does provide 1 extra mana a turn, but is it really that relevant?
Have anyone been testing Mana Bloom as a 1 of? I have seen some lists running it, but haven't really figured out why it is as good as some people say. It does provide 1 extra mana a turn, but is it really that relevant?
It's not good. At all. It does so little for Enchantress that I really wouldn't waste any space on it. At best it is a recurring draw engine, but you shouldn't need that often enough to warrant you playing this card.
With an enchantress effect out, it can.
You play it where x=0
Herp derp. I was thinking of discarding it for some reason. It's cute, but you should be chaining into other enchantments anyway so you don't really need a card specifically for that. The only reason I can think of would be during an early and tentative lock. At which point a couple copies of this probably wouldn't be in your hand. Every slot in Enchantress is precious and I personally wouldn't waste any on this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Avatar and Banner made by R&Doom of the Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
Mana bloom is like a cantrip in this deck of sorts if you have an enchantress out it reads G: Draw a card. With multiples it can get pretty nutty and the manafixing aspect of it is kind of nice (flooded with white mana typically due to sanctum but this gives us green at least.) Paying for solitary by itself with 1 enchantress is a big game. The only problem with the card is that it does nothing on its own and you have to find a cut for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
While Mana Bloom isn't the worst idea ever (I'm quite sure I've suggested worse in the past on here, more than once...) I'm not sure what I'd cut for it as I'm pretty happy with my 75 at the moment.
Does anyone else maindeck Leyline of Sanctity? I find it's helpful game one way more often than it just sits there. Granted the local Legacy meta is discard heavy, but it's also a fine answer to most troublesome Planeswalkers.
I'm hoping there's something for us in the upcoming Theros block sets...something with a good enough static ability... dare we hope for a God-card with an Enchantress effect? *drool*
Edit: Speaking of my potentially bad suggestions...met a fellow Enchantress player running four Seedtime in his sideboard to hate on blue decks. I can see the potential there.
R1: Mull to oblivion in consecutive games vs esperblade. Also ****ed up majorly by accidentally boarding out ground seal for G2.
R2: 1-2 against UR Delver. Game 3 came down to a fetch-heavy draw vs 3 stifle. I don't think I kept a 7-card hand in this entire match.
R3: Win the die roll and then blow Death & Taxes out of the water so hard it wasn't even funny. He even had mangara combo online on T4 in G2, and I just tutored up and slammed humility. 2-0
R4: Matched against Deadguy Ale. No idea that that was even still a deck. I keep all gas in G1 and he tears my hand apart by T2 or 3. Slam the replenish off the top on T4. Auto-win from there.
R5: Matched against ANT. G1 I keep a leyline hand. He plays misty rainforest and sits on it for 3 turns before scooping. I put him on Shardless BUG as the only deck that might keep on a misty but be unable to do anything on one mana. He combos me off in G2. Re-SB for G3, mull into leyline of sanctity and then cast sterling grove. He infernal tutors, revealing chain of vapor. two turns later, he EOT casts ad naus and then wins. He tells me after the match that he was waffling between calling a judge to deck check me or faking mana screw in G1. I'd have preferred he called the judge, since then I'd have had two shots with proper boarding.
R6: Maverick. Lol. Auto win even with bad hands.
R7: Opponent mulls to oblivion in G1. Makes 5 land drops in a row off a 5-card keep. Volcanic Island, Volcanic Island, Volcanic Island, Misty Rainforest, Island. At this point I have a lock and he scoops. I figure he is either UWR Delver, UR Delver, Painted Stone with Forces, or Show and Tell. He was Show and Tell and while I slightly hedged, i still got blow out. He reboards in G3 and I get surprised by Show and Tell for progenitus on a hand situated to deal with all the normal lines of attack except that. Apparently Progenitus was his SB tech against karakas and just happened to apply here. I don't find elephant grass in time.
I'm a little dissatisfied with the two losses at the beginning of the day, both were very favourable match-ups that I bricked on. The rest of the tournament went fairly well, all things considered. I definitely got outplayed by the ANT player's bluff, and I made a couple wrong calls (like inexplicably boarding out ground seal in R1 or not fetching karmic justice in R8). It felt like every match-up was at least winnable, and even the bad match-ups were real games. I was definitely lucky to dodge dredge after dropping grave hate from my board (and there was a surprisingly large dredge presence), but I didn't feel like I had an unusual draw of opponents. With better play and not hitting the bad end of variance in rounds one and two, I think the deck would have be able to do quite well. I don't think that I'd have changed anything in the list if I were able to.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Expired Rascals: Sounds like a similar experience to my own. Was that guy considering deck-checking you because of the maindeck Leyline? Also, what are your thoughts on the Chrome Mox/Mox Diamonds in your list? I don't have any of those myself, but wondering if they are worth looking into.
Expired Rascals: Sounds like a similar experience to my own. Was that guy considering deck-checking you because of the maindeck Leyline? Also, what are your thoughts on the Chrome Mox/Mox Diamonds in your list? I don't have any of those myself, but wondering if they are worth looking into.
The R5 opponent had the knee-jerk suspicion that I'd cheated and pre-sideboarded against him for G1. Calling for a deck check would have been to see if I had done such a thing, but in doing so he'd have given away that the leyline of sanctity was (very) relevant. But he had been planning to ask for concession if things were looking like we'd go to time, so he didn't want to burn any good will by (implicitly) accusing me of cheating in G1. Obviously I would have understood his reaction, given that like 15 out of our starting 60 is SB cards :laugh:, but alas he opted to not give me free information and instead ran the mana screw bluff that I fell for.
As for the moxen, I've been very pleased. They help lessen our vulnerability to rishadan port and let us still ramp through an ethersworn canonist, but more importantly, moxen hands speed up our gameplan by as much as a turn or more. In one game verses maverick, I remember I went double moxen on T1 to drop enchantress's presence in spite of only having non-basics in hand. I didn't want to lose to wasteland, so I instead just bypassed the choke point for it completely. Also, you will sometimes get into the situation where you need to dig hardcore for a key piece of hate. Moxen let you fudge your mana on those turns to just "miraculously" get there. The moxen are responsible for your most explosive openers and improve some of your most vulnerable match-ups. I couldn't imagine cutting them. I will note however that while the chrome moxen are standard fare for enchantress, the mox diamond is not. I've been running it for awhile and been very pleased, but you'll need to try it yourself to see if it fits your list. It is definitely very handy for Naya enchantress in particular since it fixes red without forcing you to grab taiga or waste a utopia sprawl for your one red card.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I also notice no Karakas in your list. Thoughts on that?
I think one of the main strengths of the deck is being inherently resilient against wasteland, and I really didn't like how karakas represented a functional "basic" that was able to be wasted. At the same time, in the match-ups where it matters, you have no way to actually find it. It never reliably did enough for me in the few match-ups where it was good, and in every other match-up, it was a liability. I'm very happy to not have it in my 75 anymore.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
This is the list I ended up playing tonight. It's not quite the stock list, but it has some decent tech that I think gives the deck some additional avenues for attack. Ended up going 2-1 tonight, beating the mirror and what is basically a variant of U/G Enchantress (though without the Enchantresses - basic plan of Snap / Cloud of Faeries / Sprawl/Growth is there), and losing to Pox.
The two GSZ's are crucial; a lot of what this deck loses to is itself, with subpar draws. Having a hand with an Enchantress effect is critical, and the GSZ gives me a functional two more copies of Argothian Enchantress, except that it's 3 mana to cast her this way. Overall, were I to play this again, I'd want to change things up a bit to deal with hand disruption a bit better; Pox is really a pain in the backside to play against, and with the rise of TNN, Pox is on the upswing as a natural counter to the Delver decks and similar low-curve blue decks that rely on it.
Two cards that I am considering are Sacred Ground and Spiritual Focus to help with that matchup. I would probably end up cutting Blind Obedience, as it tends to be a bit slow and doesn't really help out that much. Alternately, Compost could be useful against other decks that play black... Just some random musing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former Level 2 Judge (Retired / Renounced)
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Looking at that list, my biggest critique would be the win cons.
First Emrakul, second, no Sigil, third, the kinda half done RIPHelm (which requires a much heavier commitment to cards in deck than other enchantress win cons). No one has ever given me a decent answer for why Emrakul's good. Compare to our major win cons, starting with big E herself:
Emrakul - yes, undeniably one of the most powerful creatures ever printed - if you can cast her. But she costs 15 mana. If you have 14 mana, she is the textbook definition of a dead card - she won't draw you cards, there's no proactive way other than Solitary to discard her for her shuffle. And while you could spend this turn casting stuff for the mana for next turn, with the others, you could have either won or already set up your win.
Sigil - Undeniably the best win condition for that style of the deck. In terms of the above list its omission is my single biggest criticism. There's a reason its been the goto win con since it was printed - because it just staples 4/4 fliers to what we're doing anyway. I'm not gonna compare it to emrakul because no win con stacks up to it well enough to cut it.
Words - Now here's the real comparison to Emrakul. If you've got 14 mana an emrakul, you've got a dead card. If you've got 14 mana and words, you draw X cards from casting it (where X is your enchantress count) and still have the potential for up to 10 damage right then and there.
RIPHelm - Another that beats emrakul in terms of flexibility. Winning with RIPHelm takes 7 mana, less than half what emrakul does, and it can win the turn you can draw it. Using that 14 mana benchmark again means that if you don't have it, you have 7 mana to dig to it and still win with it.
So Emrakul requires a pretty hefty mana investment all at once where the others all require either a significantly lesser single investment, a cost that can be paid over time, or both.
Beyond the win cons though - you're kinda trying to play both major forms of enchantress at once, which won't get the best of any of them. You're using the old Naya style list of silver bullets. But you've also got RIPHelm, but even with enchantress's draw power, without a way to tutor for Helm, hitting both isn't going to be consistent enough. Most decks will either go for a suite of silver bullets backed up by 2-3 tutors (on top of groves) and 2-3 replenish, eventually winning off Words or Sigil, or a more straight combo build that cuts the silver bullets, runs 3 helm, 4 RIP, 1-2 energy fields and a sigil and all it wants to do is shield with energy field or solitary, then land Helm and RIP, then win. No silver bullet shenanigans, just a combo win.
On your board, the same goes about your main deck silver bullets. Karmic justice is standard. Words of wind is only ever run in the snapfae version of the deck. The rest of the time its just not enough because we don't have that infinite mana. Ideally, you want the tutor in the main (when are you ever going to board it in? What games do you not want it G1 but do G2?), nevermore never works as well as you think it will. The rest I'm guessing are meta calls, as I dropped stuff like stony silence a while back, but I pack the remaining 3 o-rings in my side, 3 city of solitude to backup my one in the main, and I use pithing needle over stony silence because I don't see enough artifacts that I need a blanket neuter, where being able to neuter any specific card I need to is much more potent.
I disagree on Sigil being the best win condition for this deck. I have been grinding out games with enchantress for some time now, I shall post my deck a bit later today.
Sigil is just too slow, it doesn't do anything the turn you slam it down, unless you have other enchantments to play. Even at that, 5 mana plus the the requirement of other cards just isn't that good of an investment. I ran Sigil in the past and well, good players allow you to play your mana enchantments and draw all the cards you want. They will just wait until you drop it down. That's when they will counter it.
With Emrakul, it is a guaranteed uncounterable beast, in which you timewalk and win on the following turn. With the new legendary rule, running anything less than 4 Serra's Sanctum is foolish. Chaining a Sanctum to another sanctum spitting out the colourless fattie happens for often then you'd think.
Given that, I don't rely on him as my primary win condition, I also run the Helm + RIP combo. 4 RIP and 2 helms.
When Sigil gets countered you play your second one or Replenish thereafter. When you untap with Sigil in play you have essentially won the game.
Personally, I believe that Rest In Peace should be a 4 of in every enchantress build as the new standard. Most Legacy decks uses the graveyard on a regular basis, having this mb hate helps give me you an advantage on that premise alone. I don't think Replenish is worthy of a slot anymore, as it's outdated. No one really packs enchantress hate, other than Burning Wish decks. I like to have an instant win, whether it's Helm of Obedience or Emrakul.
Sigil tokens can easily be killed from Ratched Bomb, engineered explosives, maestrom pulse, and/or echoing truth
The only real hate for Enchantress that I'm seeing right now is splash hate in the form of Disenchant, and unfortunately with the release of Theros, I'm seeing a small amount of Swan Song showing up as well, which has the unfortunate effect of splash hating a lot of what we are trying to do.
The problem with Sigil of the Empty Throne is the same reason why I run Words of Wind - I am afraid of decking myself in the process of making a sufficient number of tokens to actually win the game. All in all, since our only creatures have Shroud, we blank all creature removal excepting Edict effects (darn you, TNN, for making those a better meta-call) naturally, and playing the Sigil win condition opens us up to making all those removal spells live again. Since we generally have to draw 30 cards already before dropping Sigil and will usually have 3 Enchantress effects online before we win, every removal spell brings us three cards closer to decking ourselves. Words of War / Wind helps us in that regard to keep us from decking ourselves, but if we have a Words engine operational, Sigil seems redundant. It's also the worst win condition in the mirror, for what it's worth, due to Solitary and Sphere / Grass. Plus, you don't win until at least two turns after you play it - one to make the Angels and a second turn to swing with them.
I agree about increasing the number of RIP from 1 to 3. I'd rather keep the 4th copy as a Ground Seal due to the cycle effect.
Uncounterability + Inevitability is my reason for the Emakul, in addition to being able to shuffle in cards that got countered or discarded earlier in the game. With Serra's Sanctum + Karakas, Emrakul gives me access to nearly infinite turns and annihilation, guaranteeing the win. Woe be to the player who has his/her Sigil Countered, a RIP on the board, and now has no way to win the game.
Honestly, in order to combat faster combo decks, it may be correct to just go all in on RIP / Helm, put 3-4 RIP / 3 Helm / 2-3 Energy Field, include Enchantress effects for draw, run a basic shell of hate to protect it, and try to combo out on turn 4 while crushing the tempo decks such as RUG Delver and "fair" decks such as Maverick and Jund. At the very least, at least this plan gives a fighting chance at racing Elves.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former Level 2 Judge (Retired / Renounced)
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Hello all, as promised here is the current list I'm running. I have been a believer in Freggle's ideas (a user on mtgthesource) who has blossomed the original idea of the Helm and RIP combo. As I mentioned before, I believe that it's the best route to go with enchantress at the moment in the current meta. I agree with what he said a few pages back regarding testing [CARD]Gitaxian Probe/CARD]s in the mainboard as it does accumulate hand information, which is vital in this format. Not only does it do that, but it also can-trips!
This deck focuses on resilience, as it does not run all that many Non-Basic lands to get wasted. It takes advantage of the new legend rule with Serra's Sanctum, which helps poop out an emrakul later. I agree with Drifting Skies regarding Emrakul as the secondary win condition for this deck. If you're able to lock out an opponent, he always finishes the job as it's uncounterable and timewalks for the win. Not to mention the infinite turn combo with karakas if needed be.
The deck focuses on drawing into your core engine with the help of Gitaxian Probe and Abundant Growth in the deck. It helps against counterspells, which is what the deck actually is a bit scared about.
As for the Sideboard; here are some short explanations:
Oblivion Ring - Show N Tell, scary ****
Leyline - burn, discard, jund, storm, etc
Runned Halo - True-Name Nemesis, Tendrils, etc.
Gaddock Teeg - A great Zenith target, completely shuts down Miracles
Sigarda - My 3rd win condition in the deck. She is a great surprise against a lot of players. If I'm predicting some meddling mages, or some hate against my Helm RIP combo, she usually smacks them up for changing their gameplan.
Blind Obedience - Mostly against Elves, slows them down quite a bit
Hmm, I hadn't considered it as a potential answer to elves. I was packing the third solitary in the board for elves, but I think I'll give this a try. Might also be something to board in vs ANT (not that it is an ideal answer against them, but if it's in the board anyway, might as well bring it in to screw with their artifact mana).
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Crop Rotation
1 Suppression Field
1 City of Solitude
4 Chrome Mox
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Blind Obedience
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
3 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wild Growth
2 Exploration
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Words of War
1 Taiga
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Story Circle
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
In terms of some of my more interesting choices:
- Blind obedience slows down storm by forcing their artifact mana to come in to play tapped
- Nykthos has been excellent because it allows me to plow sanctum mana into green
- I like the Emrakul/Karakas win con main deck, because it gives me a few more outs to show and tell. The deck already has a great match-up against traditional show and tell decks, but an extra edge doesn't hurt.
Hey it's my first time posting here, but a long time enchantress player. Blind Obedience does little to nothing vs. ANT. It only shuts down their Lotus Petals for a turn. Since Lion's Eye Diamond does not need to tap for mana (sacrifice only) Blind is useless, and LED is what you want to stop anyhow (Hellbent.)
3 living wish
3 sterling grove
3 enlightened tutor
draw engine(7)
4 enchantress's presence
3 argothian enchantress
core enchantments(14)
2 oblivion ring
2 solitary confinement
4 utopia sprawl
4 wild growth
2 elephant grass
tutorable bullets(4)
1 humility
1 blood moon
1 sphere of safety
1 city of solitude
combo(4)
2 rest in peace
2 helm of obedience
2 replenish
lands(20)
6 forest
3 plains
2 horizon canopy
4 windswept heath
2 serra's sanctum
1 taiga
2 savannah
1 aura of silence
3 leyline of sanctity
1 nevermore
1 karmic justice
wishboard(9)
1 eternal witness
1 argothian enchantress
1 sun titan
1 qasali pridemage
1 thalia, guardian of thraben
1 heliod, god of the sun
1 wasteland
1 serra's sanctum
1 karakas
I have been on the fence about humility for a while now, but every time I go to take it out, I happen upon ALL the creature decks. last week at our weekly legacy tourney, I versed a creature toolbox deck, and won only because of it. city used to be in the sideboard, but the huge amount of control decks in the area forced me to put it main.
Yesterday I went 2-4 at the Legacy Open in Providence. Had a fun time despite my sub-par results, though multiple times I had people top deck their one-outers in order to prevent me from winning/getting the lock down. I played six different decks in the six rounds: RUG Delver (loss), Show and tell (loss), Metalworker (loss), Death n Taxes (win), Storm Combo (loss), and Mono Black Control (win). I can post my entire list later if anyone wants, but generally it's fairly standard Enchantress with WoW and sigil as the win cons. Honestly felt like I was very much in every game - I maindeck 3 Leyline of Sanctity, and that was hugely helpful more often than not. An example of my lack of luck is that I got Moat down against the Metalworker guy, with Sterling Grove in hand (he's got one turn to get rid of Moat)...he topdecks his one-of sideboarded O-Ring (he didn't have mana for Karn) and happened to have his Mox on the field, one of his few sources of white mana. He also had exactly five mana for his O-Ring to account for his pair of Lodestone Golems that Moat was holding back (I was at 5, but felt as though I'd stabilized with Moat and soon Grove/ability to tutor for what I needed next)... not sour grapes or anything, that's just the way Magic is sometimes, but I like my odds overall - just didn't work out yesterday. Similarly, I feel like I have reasonable game against SnT (Emrakul in my sideboard, main deck O'Rings and a Blind Obedience to shut down Sneak Attack, my shiny new Karakas that never showed up...hence liking the Living Wish idea) and Any-Delver.dec as anything that kills with creatures should be our strong point.
Anyway, fun was had, talked with the one other Enchantress player I saw there, and I think my play was good with no glaring miscues.
Is there any reason why this deck hasn't explored using Gitaxian Probe more?
I realize it is doing 2 damage to yourself, but in all versions the draw regardless of enchantress is a good thing. Additionally, The perfect information ca go a long way in playing around taxing counters, wasteland, of knowing when to pop [card]Sterling Grove[card]...
Is it really the 2 points of damage that prohibits it inclusion?
Secondly, Is there a resource pulled together somewhere on the internet on how to best board with enchantress for various archetypes? I know this would be fairly subjective, and I already have my certain plans, but i'm wondering if this resource could improve my play and card choices if it existed.
Thanks in advance
My general boarding thoughts: Karmic Justice against any deck that shows you enchantment removal. Runed Halo againt show n tell, maybe delver. City of Solitude against anything with counters. Fourth elephant grass against any heavy creature decks. Wheel/rest in peace against graveyard based decks. I often board in RiP/Helm game 2 as no one seems to see it coming.
I maindeck a Choke and three Leylines, so those are easily removed against certain decks for better board cards.
You raise an excellent point. The value of an inclusion of a card is heavily tied to the exclusion of some other card, and therefore the value of the card can only be understood in context.
To best answer your question as to what to cut I need to give you some context. When Rest in Peace was spoiled some others and I on another site jumped on the idea of using it in Enchantress with [cards]Helm of Obedience. When we set out to do this it became increasingly apparent that just plugging Helm and RIP into Naya Enchantress was not the way to go. After many revisions a GW version was generally ironed out below:
4 Abundant Growth
1 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Pressence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Solitary Confinement
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Windswept Heath
11 Forest
1 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Blind Obedience
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Elephant Grass
This build abandoned the toolbox in an effort to give rise to “get the engine online and draw to the win” mentality. I played this list a lot on MTGO, and racked up a bit more than a handful of 3-1’s but no 4-0’s.
This deck cannot consistently beat combo, and has difficulty with control. When it works it’s fun, but when faced with a faster clock, or heavy (or timely) stack control the deck can fall flat. Initially I tried fixing it with the sideboard, but nothing ever seemed to work out.
So this is where I am at today. I am trying to get ready for my local StarCity (Orlando) in January. I can play this pile, and try and meta the flex spots, and hope not to face combo or luck out against combo or I can challenge the progress we have made so far and try to get more lean.
The problem with City of Solitude and or In the Eye of Chaos is they effectively tempo yourself when you MAY not need to. In your tough MU you really can’t afford to make those faux pas.
So the thought occurred to me if I knew what I was up against could I play better / around the trouble decks to turn those losses into wins. I started playing with Gitaxian Probe in the super rough discovery list below:
4 Enchantress's Pressence
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wall of Blossoms
3 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Wild Growth
1 Emrakul, the aeons Torn
4 Windswept Heath
10 Forest
1 Savannah
4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Elephant Grass
This crosses both the toolbox approach with Probe and belief in the draw. This list gives us the ability to react to opponents hands. Opponent is playing ANT or TES? …Green Sun’s Zenith for Gaddock Teeg. I’m not saying it’s a perfect solution, but I wanted to know if anyone here has gone down this road, and can shed some insight before I proceed.
I have to admit playing the above list feels like playing with a more agile deck, and has saved me from some losses today. For example I ddin’t run my Argothian into a Spell Snare so I could potentially draw off my Wild Growth I just Green Suned for an Argothian Instead.
It’s doesn’t have everything yet though, and I’m still running it out there on MTGO to see what else it needs. It’s kind of like blowing it apart with probe in it to see if I come to the same conclusions.
On Emrakul - This all comes back to your point above. The value the card provides for the slot it takes. I'm not a huge fan of Emrakul in enchantress either, but I'm testing it again for the following reasons.
1. I wanted to have an uncounterable win. I have had a few games where the deck lost because of a draw out when all my wins were countered. With Emrakul it is far less likely.
2. I wanted a win that could be cast over (or under) Gaddock (I'll get to this more later.)
3. I wanted a win that did not target a player. Many times people will play some sort of player shroud to protect against Helm.
I also saw that modified lists from the GW Helm list that did 4-0 the MTGO daily used it. So I tried it. I'm not 100% sold on it but it does give the deck more flexibility in ways I did not expect it to.
Without RIP in play you can not be Grindstoned or Brain freezed to death.
With the new Legend rule and maxing our the Serra's Sanctums it is FAR EASIER to power out an Emrakul than it was just a few short months ago. ...and that makes it far more viable as a plan b as opposed to the "all else fails" option it really was in months past.
On Wall of Blossoms - Wall of Blossoms is really a product of another evolution of the GW Helm list. As time progressed the GW Helm list gained more and more Green Sun's Zenith as a product of reducing the need to mulligan, playing through discard, and playing through countermagic. However, sometimes a Green Sun top deck can stagnate a game in that you can get a draw with it. The singleton Wall of Blossoms is an attempt to turn that first dud GSZ into a draw spell.
So far in testing that function has proven to be marginal. ...but the wall itself has flipped some games in my favor just to use as a wall till I can get Confinemt lock up. In the end i'm not sure if it will stay, but I do like that it cantrips on it's own, and it can turn GSZ into a draw.
On Gaddock - I'm not certain I like it main, or at all. I just want a reliable way to stop or stall combo till I can land Confinement lock. Again, this is all about the value the card provides in the slot, and since Gaddock is green (Green Sun's) the deck does get a good deal of mileage out of 1. In my MTGO testing the main thing it does is corners the big dig. i.e. Ad Nauseam, Time Spiral... or the finisher, Green Sun's, Natural Order pretty well. It's not perfect, but it does provide time for us to tutor up the second and third piece of hate, and in the mean time it's a clock.
To get similar mileage out of In the Eye of Chaos we would have to run 4 copies, and a potential 5 card in a Tropical to reliably be able to cast it in a timely manner. ...unless I'm missing something.
On my tempo comment - I was speaking to the idea of using City or Eye as a means to combat control. The fact is if you were playing blind (no opponent hand information) and you had the option of playing [cards]City of Solitude[/card] or Enchantress's Presence the correct play (if your using City to combat control) is to play your City of Solitude BEFORE you play your Enchantress's Presence to bait the counter of clear the path.
The issue with that is even if your City does resolve you gave up 1 future draw trigger, and a turn.
Whereas, if that [cards]City of Solitude[/card] were just a Green Sun's you would be ahead of the game. In other words it either eats the counter, or it doesn't. It really doesn't matter what the card is. ...and if that is the case your better with a Green Sun's in the early turns so you should max your deck your with Green Sun's before you add any City of Solitudes. This deck building decision is also better for other MU (hand disruption) where redundancy is essential.
All-in-all I'm looking for a version of Enchantress that has top level card selection, the ability to fight through control effectively, and something meaningfully crippling to faster decks. The above Probe list was an attempt at that.
Probe in General - Having tested Probe I can say that if nothing else it does give you the ability to be a better player, that is for sure.
Using the example above about the GSZ & Enchantress Presence lets say you also have Probe and a forest and you've already dropped a land and now have 3 mana on the board. You probe and you see the counter spell you are tying to beat is Spell Pierce and that is the only counter spell they have. Your opponent also has no clock on the board. You start with a Probe, and you see the Pierce, plus a stifle, and a Tarmogoyf. You on the other hand and draw into Wild Growth off the probe.
Here with the information I just gained I would play the growth, and pass forcing my opponent to leave stifle / Pierce mana up or drop Goyf if they don't hit a land. Whereas in the past I would have just jammed the GSZ into the Pierce, and hoped the Presence took next turn.
It's not good. At all. It does so little for Enchantress that I really wouldn't waste any space on it. At best it is a recurring draw engine, but you shouldn't need that often enough to warrant you playing this card.
Umm... no it can't.
Avatar and Banner made by R&Doom of the Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
On the topic of Moat:
With an enchantress effect out, it can.
You play it where x=0
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyHerp derp. I was thinking of discarding it for some reason. It's cute, but you should be chaining into other enchantments anyway so you don't really need a card specifically for that. The only reason I can think of would be during an early and tentative lock. At which point a couple copies of this probably wouldn't be in your hand. Every slot in Enchantress is precious and I personally wouldn't waste any on this.
Avatar and Banner made by R&Doom of the Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
On the topic of Moat:
Currently Playing:
Retired
Does anyone else maindeck Leyline of Sanctity? I find it's helpful game one way more often than it just sits there. Granted the local Legacy meta is discard heavy, but it's also a fine answer to most troublesome Planeswalkers.
I'm hoping there's something for us in the upcoming Theros block sets...something with a good enough static ability... dare we hope for a God-card with an Enchantress effect? *drool*
Edit: Speaking of my potentially bad suggestions...met a fellow Enchantress player running four Seedtime in his sideboard to hate on blue decks. I can see the potential there.
I played the following list:
4 Argothian Enchantress
Enchantments: 32
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Elephant Grass
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 Suppression Field
1 Ground Seal
1 Choke
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Replenish
Artifact: 3
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
Lands: 19
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
4 Plains
1 Elephant Grass
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Replenish
1 Suppression Field
1 Stony Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Humility
1 City of Solitude
1 Planar Collapse
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Phyrexian Unlife
3 Oblivion Ring
R1: Mull to oblivion in consecutive games vs esperblade. Also ****ed up majorly by accidentally boarding out ground seal for G2.
R2: 1-2 against UR Delver. Game 3 came down to a fetch-heavy draw vs 3 stifle. I don't think I kept a 7-card hand in this entire match.
R3: Win the die roll and then blow Death & Taxes out of the water so hard it wasn't even funny. He even had mangara combo online on T4 in G2, and I just tutored up and slammed humility. 2-0
R4: Matched against Deadguy Ale. No idea that that was even still a deck. I keep all gas in G1 and he tears my hand apart by T2 or 3. Slam the replenish off the top on T4. Auto-win from there.
R5: Matched against ANT. G1 I keep a leyline hand. He plays misty rainforest and sits on it for 3 turns before scooping. I put him on Shardless BUG as the only deck that might keep on a misty but be unable to do anything on one mana. He combos me off in G2. Re-SB for G3, mull into leyline of sanctity and then cast sterling grove. He infernal tutors, revealing chain of vapor. two turns later, he EOT casts ad naus and then wins. He tells me after the match that he was waffling between calling a judge to deck check me or faking mana screw in G1. I'd have preferred he called the judge, since then I'd have had two shots with proper boarding.
R6: Maverick. Lol. Auto win even with bad hands.
R7: Opponent mulls to oblivion in G1. Makes 5 land drops in a row off a 5-card keep. Volcanic Island, Volcanic Island, Volcanic Island, Misty Rainforest, Island. At this point I have a lock and he scoops. I figure he is either UWR Delver, UR Delver, Painted Stone with Forces, or Show and Tell. He was Show and Tell and while I slightly hedged, i still got blow out. He reboards in G3 and I get surprised by Show and Tell for progenitus on a hand situated to deal with all the normal lines of attack except that. Apparently Progenitus was his SB tech against karakas and just happened to apply here. I don't find elephant grass in time.
R8: I face some weird Junk deck. It had Dark Confidants, Lilanas, inquisitions. I guess it was kinda like deadguy ale plus green? I win one game, but postboard he's got at least 10 abrupt decay/vindicate/maelstrom pulse plus a singleton pernicious deed. It's the first time that I've ever seen a deck so capable of attacking my deck. I nearly pull out, but I make the mistake of going for ground seal over karmic justice in a clutch search with sterling grove in topdeck mode.
I'm a little dissatisfied with the two losses at the beginning of the day, both were very favourable match-ups that I bricked on. The rest of the tournament went fairly well, all things considered. I definitely got outplayed by the ANT player's bluff, and I made a couple wrong calls (like inexplicably boarding out ground seal in R1 or not fetching karmic justice in R8). It felt like every match-up was at least winnable, and even the bad match-ups were real games. I was definitely lucky to dodge dredge after dropping grave hate from my board (and there was a surprisingly large dredge presence), but I didn't feel like I had an unusual draw of opponents. With better play and not hitting the bad end of variance in rounds one and two, I think the deck would have be able to do quite well. I don't think that I'd have changed anything in the list if I were able to.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
The R5 opponent had the knee-jerk suspicion that I'd cheated and pre-sideboarded against him for G1. Calling for a deck check would have been to see if I had done such a thing, but in doing so he'd have given away that the leyline of sanctity was (very) relevant. But he had been planning to ask for concession if things were looking like we'd go to time, so he didn't want to burn any good will by (implicitly) accusing me of cheating in G1. Obviously I would have understood his reaction, given that like 15 out of our starting 60 is SB cards :laugh:, but alas he opted to not give me free information and instead ran the mana screw bluff that I fell for.
As for the moxen, I've been very pleased. They help lessen our vulnerability to rishadan port and let us still ramp through an ethersworn canonist, but more importantly, moxen hands speed up our gameplan by as much as a turn or more. In one game verses maverick, I remember I went double moxen on T1 to drop enchantress's presence in spite of only having non-basics in hand. I didn't want to lose to wasteland, so I instead just bypassed the choke point for it completely. Also, you will sometimes get into the situation where you need to dig hardcore for a key piece of hate. Moxen let you fudge your mana on those turns to just "miraculously" get there. The moxen are responsible for your most explosive openers and improve some of your most vulnerable match-ups. I couldn't imagine cutting them. I will note however that while the chrome moxen are standard fare for enchantress, the mox diamond is not. I've been running it for awhile and been very pleased, but you'll need to try it yourself to see if it fits your list. It is definitely very handy for Naya enchantress in particular since it fixes red without forcing you to grab taiga or waste a utopia sprawl for your one red card.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I also notice no Karakas in your list. Thoughts on that?
I think one of the main strengths of the deck is being inherently resilient against wasteland, and I really didn't like how karakas represented a functional "basic" that was able to be wasted. At the same time, in the match-ups where it matters, you have no way to actually find it. It never reliably did enough for me in the few match-ups where it was good, and in every other match-up, it was a liability. I'm very happy to not have it in my 75 anymore.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress
Enchantments (31):
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Karmic Justice
1 Rest in Peace
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Runed Halo
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Back to Basics
1 Blind Obedience
1 Ground Seal
1 Helm of Obedience
Sorceries (2)
2 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands (21)
8 Forest
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Aura of Silence
1 Replenish
1 Stony Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Words of Wind
1 Nevermore
1 Suppression Field
1 Elephant Grass
The two GSZ's are crucial; a lot of what this deck loses to is itself, with subpar draws. Having a hand with an Enchantress effect is critical, and the GSZ gives me a functional two more copies of Argothian Enchantress, except that it's 3 mana to cast her this way. Overall, were I to play this again, I'd want to change things up a bit to deal with hand disruption a bit better; Pox is really a pain in the backside to play against, and with the rise of TNN, Pox is on the upswing as a natural counter to the Delver decks and similar low-curve blue decks that rely on it.
Two cards that I am considering are Sacred Ground and Spiritual Focus to help with that matchup. I would probably end up cutting Blind Obedience, as it tends to be a bit slow and doesn't really help out that much. Alternately, Compost could be useful against other decks that play black... Just some random musing.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
I disagree on Sigil being the best win condition for this deck. I have been grinding out games with enchantress for some time now, I shall post my deck a bit later today.
Sigil is just too slow, it doesn't do anything the turn you slam it down, unless you have other enchantments to play. Even at that, 5 mana plus the the requirement of other cards just isn't that good of an investment. I ran Sigil in the past and well, good players allow you to play your mana enchantments and draw all the cards you want. They will just wait until you drop it down. That's when they will counter it.
With Emrakul, it is a guaranteed uncounterable beast, in which you timewalk and win on the following turn. With the new legendary rule, running anything less than 4 Serra's Sanctum is foolish. Chaining a Sanctum to another sanctum spitting out the colourless fattie happens for often then you'd think.
Given that, I don't rely on him as my primary win condition, I also run the Helm + RIP combo. 4 RIP and 2 helms.
Personally, I believe that Rest In Peace should be a 4 of in every enchantress build as the new standard. Most Legacy decks uses the graveyard on a regular basis, having this mb hate helps give me you an advantage on that premise alone. I don't think Replenish is worthy of a slot anymore, as it's outdated. No one really packs enchantress hate, other than Burning Wish decks. I like to have an instant win, whether it's Helm of Obedience or Emrakul.
Sigil tokens can easily be killed from Ratched Bomb, engineered explosives, maestrom pulse, and/or echoing truth
I'm with Freggle on this!
The problem with Sigil of the Empty Throne is the same reason why I run Words of Wind - I am afraid of decking myself in the process of making a sufficient number of tokens to actually win the game. All in all, since our only creatures have Shroud, we blank all creature removal excepting Edict effects (darn you, TNN, for making those a better meta-call) naturally, and playing the Sigil win condition opens us up to making all those removal spells live again. Since we generally have to draw 30 cards already before dropping Sigil and will usually have 3 Enchantress effects online before we win, every removal spell brings us three cards closer to decking ourselves. Words of War / Wind helps us in that regard to keep us from decking ourselves, but if we have a Words engine operational, Sigil seems redundant. It's also the worst win condition in the mirror, for what it's worth, due to Solitary and Sphere / Grass. Plus, you don't win until at least two turns after you play it - one to make the Angels and a second turn to swing with them.
I agree about increasing the number of RIP from 1 to 3. I'd rather keep the 4th copy as a Ground Seal due to the cycle effect.
Uncounterability + Inevitability is my reason for the Emakul, in addition to being able to shuffle in cards that got countered or discarded earlier in the game. With Serra's Sanctum + Karakas, Emrakul gives me access to nearly infinite turns and annihilation, guaranteeing the win. Woe be to the player who has his/her Sigil Countered, a RIP on the board, and now has no way to win the game.
Honestly, in order to combat faster combo decks, it may be correct to just go all in on RIP / Helm, put 3-4 RIP / 3 Helm / 2-3 Energy Field, include Enchantress effects for draw, run a basic shell of hate to protect it, and try to combo out on turn 4 while crushing the tempo decks such as RUG Delver and "fair" decks such as Maverick and Jund. At the very least, at least this plan gives a fighting chance at racing Elves.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
This deck focuses on resilience, as it does not run all that many Non-Basic lands to get wasted. It takes advantage of the new legend rule with Serra's Sanctum, which helps poop out an emrakul later. I agree with Drifting Skies regarding Emrakul as the secondary win condition for this deck. If you're able to lock out an opponent, he always finishes the job as it's uncounterable and timewalks for the win. Not to mention the infinite turn combo with karakas if needed be.
The deck focuses on drawing into your core engine with the help of Gitaxian Probe and Abundant Growth in the deck. It helps against counterspells, which is what the deck actually is a bit scared about.
4x Windswept Heath
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Serra's Sanctum
2x Karkaks
1x Plains
6x Forest
Creatures (5)
4x Argothian Enchantress
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Enchantments (27)
3x Rest in Peace
4x Enchantress's Pressence
4x Mirri's Guile
2x Sterling Grove
4x Wild Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Abundant Growth
1x Sphere of Safety
2x Solitary Confinement
2x Helm of Obedience
Soceries (6)
3x Green Sun's Zennith
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Oblivion Ring
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreaker Trap
1x Rest In Peace
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sterling Grove
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
As for the Sideboard; here are some short explanations:
Oblivion Ring - Show N Tell, scary ****
Leyline - burn, discard, jund, storm, etc
Runned Halo - True-Name Nemesis, Tendrils, etc.
Gaddock Teeg - A great Zenith target, completely shuts down Miracles
Sigarda - My 3rd win condition in the deck. She is a great surprise against a lot of players. If I'm predicting some meddling mages, or some hate against my Helm RIP combo, she usually smacks them up for changing their gameplan.
Blind Obedience - Mostly against Elves, slows them down quite a bit