I've been playing the full set of Mutavault and I personally won't be switching any time soon. I would say 1 in 50 games they might screw with my mana consistency, but a large potion of the time they don't and I usually have another land I can play in lieu of Mutavault for a turn. Once we get the UW scry land we won't have any issues with the full set at all.
I can't see myself running a full set of Mutavaults (I'm too afraid), but would you say that three is better than two in a list that runs 26 lands?
I can't see myself running a full set of Mutavaults (I'm too afraid), but would you say that three is better than two in a list that runs 26 lands?
Yeah, you can get away with it. I'm only playing 26 lands myself. As was mentioned, Jace and Mutavault make a pretty good team against little dudes, forcing them to have to extend into wrath. It isn't that Mutavault is zomg powerful here, but rather a cog in the overall machine
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Hey all - I've been playing Esper since rotation, but with the recent success/popularity of Cuneo's UW list, I think I'm going to make the switch. I really like the idea behind elixir and grinding out games, but I want to take it a step further - I want to add red. My current list:
As you can see, the red is for Counterflux, Izzet Charm, Turn//Burn, and Assemble the Legion. I feel the red splash is very much worth it for each of these cards.
- Counterflux breaks the UW mirror match wide open pre and post board.
- Izzet Charm is very well positioned currently. So far in my testing it has been the all star. Between killing little dudes (and mutavault!) against aggro, countering walkers/connections/weapons against devotion, being a surprise counter that few control players play around, or just plain looting your way out of a mana flood or screw, this guy does everything.
- Turn//Burn is something I've been testing and every time I consider cutting it, I run into a situation only it can solve. This slot might be better off as a Celestial Flare but I'm not sure.
- Assemble the Legion is a second 'hard' wincon. I like it because there are quite a few decks that simply can't handle it. It's like a planeswalker that can't be downfalled or killed by creatures.
- Azorius charm is a card I might actually cut (I'm considering replacing the 2 I currently run with the 4th Izzet charm and a celestial flare (second flare if the turn//burn becomes a celestial flare). It just doesn't feel like Azorius charm does very much currently - I could be wrong though.
- Codex Shredder/Trading Post are to compliment the elixir. With these three artifacts, the deck feels invincible if it makes it to the late game. They each stand on their own quite well too. Post can help gain life to try to stabilize along with create chump blockers or lock down a demon. Shredder shenanigans are fun and surprisingly relevant in the mid-late game (I don't know how many times this thing became my 2nd verdict when I needed it) -- it also can screw up your opponents scry (marginal but funny). The Shredder/Post/Elixir trifecta is so fun and surprisingly potent.
Anyway, this is a rough draft that I've been testing on mtgo for the past couple days (I have about 14-15 matches under my belt so far) and I'm wondering what you guys think? I'm still tweaking the numbers and my sideboard is a complete mess, I have no idea what I want to do with it. I know I want 3 Last breath, the 4th Counterflux, 1 Wear//Tear, and 3 gainsay at least, the rest is a complete mystery to me. I've tried out a few copies of celestial flare, Izzet staticaster, fiendslayer paladin, and needle but it seems clunky. The staticasters have proven to be unnecessary, same with the paladins. I'm still trying to get a feel for what I'm soft to - help in this department would be very much appreciated.
I have 15 sources of each. I'm not going to fret too much over the last source for either color. I'd rather have the fourth Mutavault.
Even when every recent topping Azorius list has 16+, and only 2 Mutavaults? Mutavault is not a card you need to see ASAP, it's something you only activate later on in the game. This, coupled with the propensity to draw doubles early game, makes 4 a suboptimal decision.
Even when every recent topping Azorius list has 16+, and only 2 Mutavaults? Mutavault is not a card you need to see ASAP, it's something you only activate later on in the game. This, coupled with the propensity to draw doubles early game, makes 4 a suboptimal decision.
I have to agree with you here. There are too many matchups where having the ability to cast your Supreme Verdicts/Jaces, etc. on time is more important than having an extra body. Fewer Mutavaults will increase the overall number of keepable hands. If I could safely run 4 'Vaults, trust me, I would. But then I run the risk of being screwed over by my mana - and if I wanted that, I'd play Esper or UWR and at least play with more powerful cards as a potential payoff.
Simply stated, too many Mutavaults goes against the primary advantage of running Azorius over 3-color control lists. 2 is perfect, 3 is greedy, 4 is a potential handicap.
All I can say is that we could sit here and debate for hours or theory craft all day, but my results give me no reason to change my numbers. Your mileage may vary, but I don't ever take the supposed "optimal" configuration as scripture. I don't believe I've ever taken a list of any kind and not tuned it to my own 75. I think that's probably true for most if not all of us, but not changing things up is why cards like Tarmogoyf or Thundermaw don't get discovered for awhile when they were actually insane.
So yeah, I'll stick with 4 for now, but I'm not opposed to that varying in the future.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
You could always run 28 lands, playing the mutavaults over azorius charm or something. Then you can still manage 16 sources of each color.
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
All I can say is that we could sit here and debate for hours or theory craft all day, but my results give me no reason to change my numbers. Your mileage may vary, but I don't ever take the supposed "optimal" configuration as scripture. I don't believe I've ever taken a list of any kind and not tuned it to my own 75. I think that's probably true for most if not all of us, but not changing things up is why cards like Tarmogoyf or Thundermaw don't get discovered for awhile when they were actually insane.
So yeah, I'll stick with 4 for now, but I'm not opposed to that varying in the future.
Fair enough, why even ask the forum then if that's your stance on it? Wanted to gain general feedback for later use?
Debating on my SB package to handle mono-red and the increasingly present "mostly" red devotion deck. Are any of you running the Archangel/Fiendslayer/Soldier package? If so, how many of each?
Red and the occasional mono-black draws are about the only thing I really have problems with online recently, currently have 3 Fiendslayer Paladin, 3 Last Breath, 1 Blind Obedience, and 1 Ratchet Bomb to fight them with.
Has anyone considered running extra Elixirs in the side for control matchups? Makes it a lot less scary if they just sit on counterflux for your 1 elixir or if it happens to get thoughtseized off a revelation or anything along those lines.
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Playing
UW Control :symu::symw:
UWr Control :symu::symw::symr:
last night i got matched up against shrout's list, and on the play i met t1 experiment, t2 voice, t3 voice, t4 pass, t5 mistcutter, t6 mistcutter.
i brought ratchet bomb in and sat it at 1, but i don't ever feel like i'm efficiently dealing with voice ever. selesnya's creatures are so big that last breath often feels awkward, their cmc is all over the place so ratchet bomb feels awkward, and voice make verdict less-than-perfect.
also, curious to hear in how you guys are boarding against blue and black.
for reference, i was running cuneo elixir last night.
Has anyone considered running extra Elixirs in the side for control matchups? Makes it a lot less scary if they just sit on counterflux for your 1 elixir or if it happens to get thoughtseized off a revelation or anything along those lines.
I'm trying out a 1 of trading post on the sideboard for a few reasons, one of them being this
This is what I've bee running and plan on playing at an upcoming GP. I've just recently been trying out a single Thassa over the second Divination. So far I've been happy with it. It rarely becomes a creature, but the regular scry has been very strong, and even its ability has been relevant with Mutavault a few times. More Divinations would be nice but there isn't the room.
I'm running 3 daxos of meletis in my sideboard, and he has been AMAZING. He's like a nightveil specter on steroids. Once a deck boards out their removal spells, winning with daxos is easy as pie.
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
This is what I've bee running and plan on playing at an upcoming GP. I've just recently been trying out a single Thassa over the second Divination. So far I've been happy with it. It rarely becomes a creature, but the regular scry has been very strong, and even its ability has been relevant with Mutavault a few times. More Divinations would be nice but there isn't the room.
How do you deal with Mistcutter Hydra and Stormbreath Dragon? I play Esper and I'm considering porting over to Azorius, but Azorius seems really unable to respond to these cards.
How do you deal with Mistcutter Hydra and Stormbreath Dragon? I play Esper and I'm considering porting over to Azorius, but Azorius seems really unable to respond to these cards.
Most decks I've come across with Dragon, don't have many other threats I care about so Essence scatter/Dissolve or Verdict deal with that.
I haven't had to play against Hydra yet, thankfully =\. Pre-board Verdicts - after that I guess Trading post, Flare, or scoop
what do you guys think about Rapid Hybridization as a response to Dragon, Blood Baron and Obzedat? Something like 1-2 in SB sounds nice, unfortunately, it don't affect Mistcuter Hydra, but still sounds nice
I think celestial flare is the best answer to these three cards. Supreme verdict works on blood baron and stormbreath as well.
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
But flare can be prevented by attacking with Mutavault or other creatures, and opponent can just not attack with Obzedat when we have two white mana open.
That's true, but you have other answers for mutavault as well, right? If they do make that play, you could try to azorius charm into a counterspell to deal with obzedat. Oh, I forgot to mention that as well -- dissolve answers all those creatures, right? Maybe I'm the odd man out, but I haven't had too many problems with obzedat and blood baron. The dragon is a little tougher, to be fair, since it has haste. I think the trick is to just remember in those matchups that you want to hang on to your supreme verdicts for those threats and try to go one for one on removal until they drop them.
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Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
How do you deal with Mistcutter Hydra and Stormbreath Dragon? I play Esper and I'm considering porting over to Azorius, but Azorius seems really unable to respond to these cards.
Are most you running Last Breath main or side? I am trying to decide between a DeTora-style list or a Lossette-style list. I don't think a Jensen/Cuneo-style list would be competitive in my area.
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I can't see myself running a full set of Mutavaults (I'm too afraid), but would you say that three is better than two in a list that runs 26 lands?
Yeah, you can get away with it. I'm only playing 26 lands myself. As was mentioned, Jace and Mutavault make a pretty good team against little dudes, forcing them to have to extend into wrath. It isn't that Mutavault is zomg powerful here, but rather a cog in the overall machine
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
I have 15 sources of each. I'm not going to fret too much over the last source for either color. I'd rather have the fourth Mutavault.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Azorius Guildgate
1 Izzet Guildgate
2 Mutavault
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Quicken
3 Counterflux
2 Azorius Charm
3 Izzet Charm
1 Turn//Burn
Sorceries:
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Divination
4 Detention Sphere
1 Assemble the Legion
Artifacts:
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Trading Post
1 Codex Shredder
Planeswalkers: 5
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
As you can see, the red is for Counterflux, Izzet Charm, Turn//Burn, and Assemble the Legion. I feel the red splash is very much worth it for each of these cards.
- Counterflux breaks the UW mirror match wide open pre and post board.
- Izzet Charm is very well positioned currently. So far in my testing it has been the all star. Between killing little dudes (and mutavault!) against aggro, countering walkers/connections/weapons against devotion, being a surprise counter that few control players play around, or just plain looting your way out of a mana flood or screw, this guy does everything.
- Turn//Burn is something I've been testing and every time I consider cutting it, I run into a situation only it can solve. This slot might be better off as a Celestial Flare but I'm not sure.
- Assemble the Legion is a second 'hard' wincon. I like it because there are quite a few decks that simply can't handle it. It's like a planeswalker that can't be downfalled or killed by creatures.
- Azorius charm is a card I might actually cut (I'm considering replacing the 2 I currently run with the 4th Izzet charm and a celestial flare (second flare if the turn//burn becomes a celestial flare). It just doesn't feel like Azorius charm does very much currently - I could be wrong though.
- Codex Shredder/Trading Post are to compliment the elixir. With these three artifacts, the deck feels invincible if it makes it to the late game. They each stand on their own quite well too. Post can help gain life to try to stabilize along with create chump blockers or lock down a demon. Shredder shenanigans are fun and surprisingly relevant in the mid-late game (I don't know how many times this thing became my 2nd verdict when I needed it) -- it also can screw up your opponents scry (marginal but funny). The Shredder/Post/Elixir trifecta is so fun and surprisingly potent.
Anyway, this is a rough draft that I've been testing on mtgo for the past couple days (I have about 14-15 matches under my belt so far) and I'm wondering what you guys think? I'm still tweaking the numbers and my sideboard is a complete mess, I have no idea what I want to do with it. I know I want 3 Last breath, the 4th Counterflux, 1 Wear//Tear, and 3 gainsay at least, the rest is a complete mystery to me. I've tried out a few copies of celestial flare, Izzet staticaster, fiendslayer paladin, and needle but it seems clunky. The staticasters have proven to be unnecessary, same with the paladins. I'm still trying to get a feel for what I'm soft to - help in this department would be very much appreciated.
Even when every recent topping Azorius list has 16+, and only 2 Mutavaults? Mutavault is not a card you need to see ASAP, it's something you only activate later on in the game. This, coupled with the propensity to draw doubles early game, makes 4 a suboptimal decision.
I have to agree with you here. There are too many matchups where having the ability to cast your Supreme Verdicts/Jaces, etc. on time is more important than having an extra body. Fewer Mutavaults will increase the overall number of keepable hands. If I could safely run 4 'Vaults, trust me, I would. But then I run the risk of being screwed over by my mana - and if I wanted that, I'd play Esper or UWR and at least play with more powerful cards as a potential payoff.
Simply stated, too many Mutavaults goes against the primary advantage of running Azorius over 3-color control lists. 2 is perfect, 3 is greedy, 4 is a potential handicap.
So yeah, I'll stick with 4 for now, but I'm not opposed to that varying in the future.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
Fair enough, why even ask the forum then if that's your stance on it? Wanted to gain general feedback for later use?
I was actually thinking that myself. Could be used in a deck that boards in creatures.
Red and the occasional mono-black draws are about the only thing I really have problems with online recently, currently have 3 Fiendslayer Paladin, 3 Last Breath, 1 Blind Obedience, and 1 Ratchet Bomb to fight them with.
UW Control :symu::symw:
UWr Control :symu::symw::symr:
last night i got matched up against shrout's list, and on the play i met t1 experiment, t2 voice, t3 voice, t4 pass, t5 mistcutter, t6 mistcutter.
i brought ratchet bomb in and sat it at 1, but i don't ever feel like i'm efficiently dealing with voice ever. selesnya's creatures are so big that last breath often feels awkward, their cmc is all over the place so ratchet bomb feels awkward, and voice make verdict less-than-perfect.
also, curious to hear in how you guys are boarding against blue and black.
for reference, i was running cuneo elixir last night.
I didn't ask anyone about it. We were just on the subject and I had input on the matter.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
I'm trying out a 1 of trading post on the sideboard for a few reasons, one of them being this
I don't think getting your elixir thoughtseize'd or countered is a frequent enough of an occurrence to devote a sideboard slot to it.
4 Azorius Guildgate
2 Mutavault
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Deceit
1 Aetherling
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Divination
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Dissolve
3 Last Breath
2 Essence Scatter
4 Azorius Charm
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Soldier of Pantheon
4 Gainsay
2 Negate
1 Trading Post
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Last Breath
1 Celestial Flare
1 Blind Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
This is what I've bee running and plan on playing at an upcoming GP. I've just recently been trying out a single Thassa over the second Divination. So far I've been happy with it. It rarely becomes a creature, but the regular scry has been very strong, and even its ability has been relevant with Mutavault a few times. More Divinations would be nice but there isn't the room.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
How do you deal with Mistcutter Hydra and Stormbreath Dragon? I play Esper and I'm considering porting over to Azorius, but Azorius seems really unable to respond to these cards.
Most decks I've come across with Dragon, don't have many other threats I care about so Essence scatter/Dissolve or Verdict deal with that.
I haven't had to play against Hydra yet, thankfully =\. Pre-board Verdicts - after that I guess Trading post, Flare, or scoop
I think celestial flare is the best answer to these three cards. Supreme verdict works on blood baron and stormbreath as well.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
That's true, but you have other answers for mutavault as well, right? If they do make that play, you could try to azorius charm into a counterspell to deal with obzedat. Oh, I forgot to mention that as well -- dissolve answers all those creatures, right? Maybe I'm the odd man out, but I haven't had too many problems with obzedat and blood baron. The dragon is a little tougher, to be fair, since it has haste. I think the trick is to just remember in those matchups that you want to hang on to your supreme verdicts for those threats and try to go one for one on removal until they drop them.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic