Owls, how do you feel about adding a singleton Primeval Bounty? Maybe over a Whip?
I have thought about working PB in-- though I wouldn't do it at expense of a whip. I have found the whip to be crucial in stabilizing mid/late game, and racing mono-black until we can draw one of our many spells that can destroy an opposing whip. We dont get as much value from it as other decks do, but we need the lifelink. We're living in a whip or be whipped standard, I want it out every game.
The one big change I can't seem to get settled on, though, is Underworld Connections. I've been running 3 but was testing a 2 Read The Bones w/ 1 UC split & liked that quite a bit. We don't need as much sheer CA or devotion, we just need to find the right cards for the current board state, which RTB is a little better at.
So at least in my list, I think I'd cut one of the draw spells for Primeval Bounty. Or maybe keep it SB for the games I've got some breathing room to work with. It's not unrealistic to be casting it on turn 4 or 5, but you usually want to be casting Xenagos, Reaper, Demon, Vraska etc these turns. If you're comfortably playing Primeval Bounty, you are probably already winning the game. Nice way to lock it up, though.
Also, Golgari Charm is amazing right now. Just destroys mono-red & naya control. I'm definitely putting 1 more in there somewhere.
I sincerely believe you're over-evaluating the value of Whip. Creature tokens are not the best source of lifegain. You don't have enough good creatures to recur through whip. It's not a good 4-drop off a Caryatid. You've got great 4 mana plays, I think you can afford to wait until you can drop a truly important enchantment.
I understand how an extra sweeper would help against Elspeth (not as much against mono red which has a bunch on toughness 2 creatures), but how about a Mainboard solution? I'm using a singleton or doublet Underworld Cerberus? The Boon Satyr is oddly positioned; best used as a five drop insurance against removal, will keep you stonewalled against the mirror/Xenagos tokens. Cerberus offers evasion and some wrath protection.
I think I agree on the RTB/UC. I agree on the logic, though. If you go more Primeaval Bounty, though; UC would be better, obviously.
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:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
This was my record in the prelim:
2-0 mono blue devotion
2-0 mono red aggro
2-0 opponent didn't show up
0-2 esper devotion (esper control with master, nightveil, and thassa. Had no idea what to board in, aside from thoughtsieze)
2-0 gruul devotion
1-2 mono red devotion
I also just 3-1'ed a dialy with this, my record was:
2-1 Boros aggro
1-2 Burn (yes this is a deck)
I only won game 1 here because he was stuck on one land. This deck scares the crap out of me, we have no way to interact with it, I'm strongly considering moving the returns to the board (taking out chandra) and putting in bow of nylea in the main to help shore up the aggro matchup, as well as this one. I feel like if I could just gain 3 life a turn he'd be screwed.
2-1 Mono red aggro (bow would have been awsome here)
2-1 Gruul Devotion
Chandra underperfomed most of the time, I'm also afraid to board her in in most matchups, since alot of decks have fliers. She's going to get cut.
I'm not 100% sure about xenagos. Sometimes you get insane draws where his +1 helps you monstrous polukranos and dragon, but usually he just pumps out 2/2's, which is sometimes enough. But I feel like this spot could be better used.
Putrefy ended up being alot better than I thought it would be since it can hit weapons, I almost didn't put it in here and I probably would have lost a game or two because of it.
I think I'm going to cut chandra, put the returns in the board, and maindeck 2 bow of nylea. I like bow because it's a way to "permenantly" deal with chandra's pheonix, and it gains you life. I could also see the +1/+1 counter mattering and there might be a corner case scenario where you can take away targets from an opposing ooze.
Does anyone have any better options than xenagos? I'm also considering maybe cutting a dragon, but I'm not too sure about that. I'd really like something to do at 3 mana besides killing something and boon satyr is really bad for this deck.
EDIT:
I just tested out the bow, and holy crap it's good. Every game I got it the aggro decks just couldn't keep up with it. It's awsome. I also ended up cutting xenagos, moved the returns main, and put a 3rd bow and duress into my sideboard.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
while I like the utility that putrefy provides, 3 mana removal spells aren't really where I want to be personally right now. abrupt decay does decent work though and can still hit every weapon but whip. The only matchup where it falls short is against the green devotion decks.
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Big thanks to DarkNightCavalier from heroes of the planes studios for the sig!
while I like the utility that putrefy provides, 3 mana removal spells aren't really where I want to be personally right now. abrupt decay does decent work though and can still hit every weapon but whip. The only matchup where it falls short is against the green devotion decks.
It also can't hit the bident. And alot of the big threats dodge it, master of waves, desecration demon, stormbreath dragon, polukranos, etc....
After playing against mono black devotion, I agree with you. I need something that can hit their connections and golgari charm is basically just naturalize in that matchup. I'm going to fit 3 copies of abrupt decay in the main, cutting putrefy and I'll cut the whips and put in a rakdos keyrune. The whips really aren't that great here. Bow gains enough life and doesn't require creatures.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
This is a more aggressive, slightly more threat-heavy list that I'm liking quite a bit. The primary threat is Exava into Kalonian Hydra, which can be turn four with a Caryatid. The manabase is pretty solid - I'm happy with where it's at. Hoping they print a temple in Golgari colors for the next set...
The reason why I went with Kalonian over Stormbreath in the five-slot is for a few reasons:
The explosiveness of Exava + Kalonian is very hard to deal with. Removal or lose.
Hydra dies to basically the same ubiquitous removal that Stormbreath does - Verdict, Downfall, Doom Blade and Ultimate Price. With Golgari Charms and Abrupt Decays, Detention Sphere is just a nice way to dodge a Verdict most the time. Late-game EOT Abrupt Decay freeing the Hydra can be a blowout. Selesnya Charm is the biggest problem, but the GW matchup is good enough where I'm not too worried about it. Mono-white devotion is the weird matchup for removal - Banisher Priest and Chained to the Rocks are a problem, but both die to to most of my own removal. Stormbreath is definitely stronger here, but they also run Celestial Flare, which can be pretty bad if your gameplan is swinging in with a lone SBD.
Kalonian is slightly easier to cast. This deck tends favors green over red, due to needing to land a turn two Caryatid whenever possible. 11 red vs 14 green. Manabase issues are this deck's biggest problem, and this eases it slightly. There were a nonzero amount of games where I had a SB in hand and one red source at five mana. I have never had a Kalonian at five mana with one green source.
Kalonian is very strong when being Whipped out of the yard. 8/8 haste-trample-lifelink is pretty good.
Good (if minor) interactions with other creatures in the deck - pumps Exava, and Scavenging Ooze if I decide to run him. Exava at 5/5 first strike lets you attack into Reaper, Ember Swallower, double Ash Zealot, etc, which can be relevant.
Cards that exceeded expectations:
Golgari Charm: This card is straight-up nuts. It kills god weapons, Master of Waves, aggro decks, Assemble the Legion, Elspeth tokens, DSphere, Chained to the Rocks, Underworld Connections, and on and on. Regen mode can blank a Verdict or turn combat into a blowout. Considering 4-of in the main.
Reaper of the Wilds: Of course, we all know this already. Stick a Reaper, and it's extremely hard to kill, and extremely hard to attack into. Great card overall, and provides much-needed draw filtering if it stays around. Good synergy with Golgari Charm/deathtouch.
Kalonian Hydra: For all the reasons above. Solid finisher, must be answered immediately, or it's game over - no way to lifegain through it, race it, or chump it, it gets too big too fast.
Mizzium Mortars: The deck's sole answer to Blood Baron, clutch early-game removal, and another way to bust through a stalled board in the late game. Great card all around.
Cards that feel underperforming:
Underworld Connections: There has to be some kind of card advantage in this deck, but I'm never happy with Read the Bones. A topdeck RtB rarely saves you, since you'll need at least seven mana to do anything after casting it. Topdeck UC is even worse, but better if cast early. Settled on Underworld, since it improves the control matchup, turn three UC isn't much (if any) of a tempo loss for this deck, and the fact that turn 3 RtB makes you discard if you don't have a two-drop.
Desecration Demon: Not an effective blocker off the top, but can be devastating on turn three with a Caryatid. Settled on 3-of, since it's a good lightning rod for removal, too.
Anger of the Gods: Hits our own Caryatids, and blank in a lot of matchups. Very important to draw one early versus Boros Heroic/green devotion/white devotion/RDW, but tough to cast when you need it. Not sure what to do about this card.
Putrefy: There aren't any artifacts that I need to kill that don't die to Abrupt Decay or Golgari Charm, so I ended up cutting this one. The fact that it's easier to cast than Downfall doesn't outweigh the fact that it doesn't kill must-answer planeswalkers like Garruk. I feel like that might be a mistake, and might try splitting it with Downfall or finding space in the board. Might take Anger's spot, actually.
In the end, I'm reasonably sure that Kalonian isn't really *better* than Stormbreath, just different. It's working very well so far, and definitely worth testing out fully.
Been having a lot of fun with this deck, and I feel like Jund's got legs for sure.
Hey fellow Turbo Hydra fan! I'm on the Hydra train too, maining 4 Domris and experimenting with various sources of creature-based removal to keep me alive in the fight against Aggro.
Seriously, you have a battle plan that revolves around heavy aggro/Combo and Desecration demon is the first creature that'll get stonewalled by every card in an opponent's deck. He works with Varolz, and then again only with resilient or evasive creatures. I've experimented with SB Anger of the Gods, but in practice there isn't enough red sources for it to happen consistently turn 3... Unless you cast Sylvan Caryatid first.
Anywho, check my sig and look over what I have. I'll tell you one thing though: Turbo Hydra is very much a combo deck. You really have to commit as much as possible for it to reap dividends.
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:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Hey fellow Turbo Hydra fan! I'm on the Hydra train too, maining 4 Domris and experimenting with various sources of creature-based removal to keep me alive in the fight against Aggro.
Seriously, you have a battle plan that revolves around heavy aggro/Combo and Desecration demon is the first creature that'll get stonewalled by every card in an opponent's deck. He works with Varolz, and then again only with resilient or evasive creatures. I've experimented with SB Anger of the Gods, but in practice there isn't enough red sources for it to happen consistently turn 3... Unless you cast Sylvan Caryatid first.
Anywho, check my sig and look over what I have. I'll tell you one thing though: Turbo Hydra is very much a combo deck. You really have to commit as much as possible for it to reap dividends.
I wouldn't say the battle plan is heavy aggro or combo at all - Exava and Hydra interact favorably, but I wouldn't call it a 'combo'. I don't think Kalonian is good enough to build a combo strategy around, anyway - it's not a resilient enough threat, its power level is not high enough, you can't find it when you need it, and it's almost never a kill the turn it hits the board. None of the things that make a combo strategy good are there. I think its best role is just as a strong creature with some incidental synergy, and hence its inclusion in my midrange list. It's strength is the automatic two turn clock it presents (or one turn, with haste).
I played a whole lot of that Domri Jund list, and it just never felt good. The low-curve creatures just aren't fast enough and aren't efficient enough. Kalonian is a nice curve-topper, but Stormbreath is probably better solely due to the baked in haste. Mono-red and R/G are far superior aggro plans overall. Being in Jund just slows the deck down with a weaker manabase - black adds very little to the aggro plan, but adds quite a lot to the midrange plan.
Using Domri as a removal spell is not where I want to be, either - running cards like Deadly Recluse offers very little over, say, a Putrefy, except giving you the ability to 2-for-1 yourself every time you need removal. Anything a Recluse fights will kill the recluse, and you've given up a potential card from Domri to do it. Sounds like a bad plan to me. At least Thrill-Kill can get in for some solid damage on an open (or thin) board - I would peg him as quite a bit better than Recluse.
A scavenge list with maindeck Varolz is I think why you'd be in Jund for aggro - going for an aggro plan with some extra staying power. However, scavenge is just okay and mostly win-more, and so is Varolz. Was never happy with that list either - very hard to come back from a disadvantaged board state, and no tools to force the board your way.
But anyway, this thread is about midrange. I think midrange is the place Kalonian wants to be, because we have at least some tools to defend it, ways to get value out of it if it doesn't stick, and can afford to run creatures that synergize well with it.
Look at what you did comparing Domri to Putrify: Domri stays on the board after a fight and all you lost was the opportunity to gain an extra card. You're using a 2 mana creature to presumably kill a 4 or even a 5 mana one. You don't lose Domri until an opponent interacts with it, and that means one less card for them to interact with your Hydra.
Say what you will about Hydra, but he only needs about two turns to shut-off a game. Which is far less that Dragon. And don't talk about Monstrous until you show me the mana base that can regularly unleash the Monstrous ability. I consider the Dragon to be far too mana-expensive for what it does.
Though I'm often of two minds between Deadly Recluse and Thrill-Kill Assassin, there's no denying there are too many flyers in standard for Domri to survive without Air defense, to the point that I'm looking at additional reach creatures. Cloudfin Raptor, Chandra's Pheonix, Desecration Demon, white with their new Pegasus Champion. Its also a good blocker on it's own, until you meet ash zealot and the weenie first strikers.
Black offers Underworld Cerberus, which is worth it in the control match-ups. Don't like it against aggro, though.
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Bringing Turbo-Hydra back to Standard...
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Look at what you did comparing Domri to Putrify: Domri stays on the board after a fight and all you lost was the opportunity to gain an extra card. You're using a 2 mana creature to presumably kill a 4 or even a 5 mana one. You don't lose Domri until an opponent interacts with it, and that means one less card for them to interact with your Hydra.
Say what you will about Hydra, but he only needs about two turns to shut-off a game. Which is far less that Dragon. And don't talk about Monstrous until you show me the mana base that can regularly unleash the Monstrous ability. I consider the Dragon to be far too mana-expensive for what it does.
Though I'm often of two minds between Deadly Recluse and Thrill-Kill Assassin, there's no denying there are too many flyers in standard for Domri to survive without Air defense, to the point that I'm looking at additional reach creatures. Buttfin Raptor, Chandra's Pheonix, Desecration Demon, white with their new Pegasus Champion. Its also a good blocker on it's own, until you meet ash zealot and the weenie first strikers.
Black offers Underworld Cerberus, which is worth it in the control match-ups. Don't like it against aggro, though.
I'm not going to argue about Domri as removal - losing 1 card that costs two mana, a potential extra card, and effectively four loyalty toward Domri's ultimate at sorcery speed is not in any way comparable to a three mana one card at instant speed. Zero comparison. Domri as removal does not have even the faintest, most distant prayer of being a better play than an actual removal spell. That's not even considering the fact that Domri needs a second card *in play* in order for his -3 to do anything at all (a very specific second card, if the -3 is going to be helpful for your list), nor is it considering the fact that your opponent can remove your Recluse in response to you activating Domri, and you just gave away three loyalty and a potential card for nothing. Domri is NOT good removal. Period.
I could go on about Putrefy specifically, and how it kills things like god weapons, ratchet bombs, and Pithing Needles naming Domri, but that should be obvious.
He still *for sure* doesn't belong in midrange, and this is still the midrange thread.
I agree with you about Stormbreath's monstrous, in that it is not often relevant. It is expensive, but Jund with Caryatids can definitely hit seven mana reliably, especially in a control matchup where SBD is arguably at his best. SBD's monstrous is a nice thing to have, but not at the expense of doing pretty much anything else with that mana. If he's survived the first turn against a deck like Esper, either they don't have the removal (unlikely), or they were tapped out last turn and are just waiting until your attack step to Doom Blade it.
I am also perfectly aware of the clock Kalonian presents, which is, as I said, why I'd like to run him. I'm just saying it's not good enough to build a deck around it. It's just one possible winning line of many, and a not very durable one at that. Midrange doesn't get a lot of opportunities to put serious pressure on an opponent, and the fact that Kalonian demands an answer so strongly is valuable.
I have tried to fit in Underworld Cerberus in a lot of places, but the fact that his effect is symmetrical and shuts off your own Whip of Erebos makes him very unappealing. Whip is very strong with Kalonian Hydra, so that means Cerberus is out. If his ability was 'leaves the battlefield' and not 'dies', I might be sold since DSpheres/Chained to the Rocks/etc could not shut him down. I'd rather refill my hand with Underworld Connections and Whip dead things against control anyway - fewer opportunities for them to interact with a Whipped creature than a cast one. He also fits in at five, which would make him a one-of at the absolute maximum, since he'd either be taking the place of a Kalonian or bumping my curve up.
So has anyone come up with an answer for these hyper aggro decks? I'm currently main boarding thrill-kill assassins which help but aren't great. MB anger of the gods just seems too slow. Wasteland Viper is interesting since it can be an early 1-for1 or a combat trick later, but still kinda weak. Love deadly recluse in theory, but hard to justify it as a 4-of. Hard to justify any of it really, but we're really need help in the first 2 turns especially. Maybe it's Lotleth Troll? Small body to start with but more value as the game goes on.
Just interested in hearing what is or isn't working for you guys.
So has anyone come up with an answer for these hyper aggro decks? I'm currently main boarding thrill-kill assassins which help but aren't great. MB anger of the gods just seems too slow. Wasteland Viper is interesting since it can be an early 1-for1 or a combat trick later, but still kinda weak. Love deadly recluse in theory, but hard to justify it as a 4-of. Hard to justify any of it really, but we're really need help in the first 2 turns especially. Maybe it's Lotleth Troll? Small body to start with but more value as the game goes on.
Just interested in hearing what is or isn't working for you guys.
I think we can hold off the creatures. I have 4 dreadbore, 4 abrupt decay, 2 mortars, 3 angers, and 1 hero's downfall main, and post board I bring in the 3rd mortars and 4th anger. The problem is lifegain. I can almost always run them out of creatures, but then they burn me out, or use act of treason on one of my win cons (sucks having that happen to a kalonian hydra :().
I've been bringing in 2 bows in those matchups, they are pretty slow (and tie up mana), but if you get it going it gives you an insane ammount of life, plus it shoots down chandra's pheonix. There's also the whip, which is really good, but again slow, and requires creatures. Another option is trading post, but the bow seems better than that.
Other options:
Thrull Parasite, I don't think we run enough black sources to make this work.
Pharika's Cure, again, I don't think we run enough black sources.
Crypt Incursion, makes ooze less effective, and anger exiles creatures, not sure if this would be good or not.
Nylea's disciple, basically a centaur healer that costs one more, but can gain more life.
Maybe it's right to run 2 bows and 2 disciples in the board? Seems pretty good to turn 3 the bow and turn 4 the disciple.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I have a Jund build I threw together, mainly using some Reaper of the Wilds, d-demons, scoozes, a sire of insanity, and a playset of stormbreaths. It's been testing really well. Stormbreath just stomps all over Esper way better than Thundermaw ever could have hoped, making that matchup even easier. Aggro is really the only potential problem, and possibly g/r devotion, although that remains to be seen by testing.
I have a feeling Jund is going to become a tier 1 deck again this season, altogether depending on the quality of 4-5 drop creatures in the coming sets. All it takes is one or two huntmaster/Olivia/Thragtusk replacements. The better the creatures available in midrange, the better Jund gets. Still having awesome removal (Hero's Downfall, Abrupt Decay, Anger of the Gods) and disruption (Thoughtseize, Rakdos's Return, Sire) gives the deck a solid utility package that is ultimately hinging on some super-value creatures. While I obviously don't expect Thragtusk-level bustedness, I do believe there's room at the 4-5 drop spots for slightly better creatures than either d-demon or reaper (I don't consider kalonian hydra and Exava as midrange cards, more so Aggro-ish).
I love the utility of Jund, I'm really just hoping for some super-value creatures to come out next.
CREATURES - I've found in my testing that Lifebane Zombie has been uninspiring for the most part, while Ooze, Reaper and the Dragon have been excellent in most matchups. As a result, I've pulled the Zombie from the 75 and added two more Dragons to the main. In almost every matchup that I've played to date, I've been happy playing Reaper of the Wilds over Desecration Demon and plan to continue doing so.
PLANESWAKERS - Xenegos has proven to be a bomb against U/W-based control as they have real difficulty dealing with the endless stream of hasty Satyrs. He usually ends up in a Detention Sphere after a turn or two which clears the way for Chandra/Vraska, both of whom have been excellent. I've added Vraska to the main as a welcome additional source of flexible removal. Chandra has for the most part relegated Underworld Connections to the sideboard.
REMOVAL - I've moved Abrupt Decay to the sideboard in favor of an additional Putrefy which has proven more useful in the face of big green fatties, opposing Demons and Dragons, and of course Obzedat. Decay usually gets subbed into the spot vs. aggro builds. Dreadbore has never been a dead card in hand and I'm happy to be working with a full playset in this build. Anger of the Gods obviously comes in against aggro (in place of Thoughtseize) and the additional Mortars in the sideboard comes in against aggro and anything playing Blood Baron (except Esper control).
I also made a few tweaks to the mana base and my draws and land drops have been fairly consistent. The only thing I'm considering is bringing in an additional Temple of Abandon in place of a Mountain or Forest.
So far I've had great success vs. U/W and Esper control, especially after bringing in Slaughter Games and Underworld Connections in game 2. Just tag their Sphinx's Revs and Aetherlings and the game feels nearly unloseable. Elspeth isn't of much concern with 4 Dreadbore in the main.
My record vs. other midrange builds (BWR and GR Monsters, primarily) has been dependent on having enough removal in my opening hand (or drawing into it quickly) to deal with Desecration Demon and the various green fatties before dropping Stormbreath for the win. The GR matchup feels easier than the BWR as our low creature count is somewhat vulnerable to the black spot removal suite. Underworld Connections and Chandra are winners in that matchup. The additional Mortars comes in against GR.
Red aggro is definitely the toughest matchup. Even with the sideboard full of hate, the only way to win seems to be to lay down a Caryatid early, kill everything that it can't block and dig for a Scavenging Ooze. Burning Earth is obviously an issue, hence the increased Golgari Charm count.
I went 4-0 earlier tonight in a local event:
Round 1 vs. Jund Monsters (2-1) - Played against an interesting build looking to leverage Corpsejack Menace synergies with Gyre Sage, Kalonian Hydra and Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch. He took game one thanks to a Sage->Menace->Menace sequence and a lack of removal on my part. Games two and three went much smoother after bringing in Decays (for Domri and Gyre Sage) and an additional Mortars (everything else). Stormbreath Dragon flew in for easy kills.
Round 2 vs. U/W Control (2-0) - Relatively easy matchup vs. somewhat mana flooded opponent. Thoughtseize cleared the way for Chandra who pulled me ahead in the card advantage war. Game 2 saw Slaughter Games grab all his SR's, Dreadbore take down Elspeth, and a Dragon fly in unimpeded for the win (after Thoughtseize checked for post-board Celestial Flares).
Round 3 vs. Red Aggro (2-1) - A couple of Caryatids held the gates until I was down to 2 life (within Magma Jet/Lightning Strike range!), and then I peeled Ooze which came down to save the day (lucky win). Game two went as expected with Cackler->Ash Zealot->Reckoner->Burning Earth and I wasn't able to gain my footing. Game three benefitted from a lack of Burning Earth, timely Angers and Mortars, and another Ooze-fueled recovery and subsequent beatdown.
Round 3 vs. Red Devotion (2-1) - Game one went about as well as it could have with Caryatid providing early blocks, followed by a Reaper and a Dragon. I was able to stabilize and go on the offensive relatively early. I faced too much burn in game two to recover from and ultimately lost to a Fanatic of Mogus coming down with Purphoros in play. The deck definitely struggles with active gods...keeping the board as clean as possible is a definite necessity once a god hits the board. Game three played out very similarly to the last game in Round 3.
Overall I'm happy with the build and plan to continue testing the 75 listed above against the developing metagame. I haven't yet had a chance to face Blue Devotion, but it seems like a winnable matchup given the removal suite and the hoser that is Golgari Charm. I also need more testing vs. GW aggro.
After several more weeks of play-testing, I have settled on the following:
Most of the tweaks to the deck from the prior version have been driven by the prevalence of mono red aggro in my local meta--the main changes being moving Thoughtseize and Vraska to the sideboard, and main-decking multiple copies of Abrupt Decay. Against mono red, I typically bring in the Golgari Charms and Anger of the Gods--taking out all copies of Chandra and Rakdos's Return, and a copy of Stormbreath Dragon or Xenegos, depending on the specific matchup.
Preparing for aggro obviously makes the deck more vulnerable to control. I've tried to partially offset this by adding an additional copy of Xenegos, an additional Thoughtseize, and Sire of Insanity as a pseudo 3rd Rakdos's Return.
I went 4-0 earlier tonight in a local event vs. UW control (I'd consider this to be the deck's most favorable matchup), two variations of mono red aggro, and a Junk (Whip) Reanimator brew. The mono red matchups were obviously the toughtest, but the addition of Abrupt Decay did make a noticeable difference in game 1. Scavenging Ooze is still a champ...I'm considering finding room for a fourth copy in the sideboard (probably replacing Sire).
I definitely agree with the last post. I think Jund has a strong matchup against most of the field right now, and one or two powerful midrange creatures in Born of the Gods or Journey into Nyx could help push the archetype back into the Standard tier 1 limelight.
Underworld Cerberus is a beast of a card, and shuts down stupid Whips of Erebos. It also can't be killed by much removal and acts as Wrath insurance against the control decks.
Primeval Bounty is a card every deck like this should play. It's like a green Sphinx's Revelation: cast it and win 2 to 5 turns later. I cannot emphasize enough how awesome it has proven to be. It and Rakdos's Return are my 'oops I win' cards and every deck like this should run both.
I tested Xenagos, the Reveler out for a while but didn't like him because I felt he didn't do enough. Traitorous Instinct in the board is pretty funny secret tech I read about somewhere that goes great with all the Desecration Demons everyone's packing.
I'm sure some numbers could be tweaked, like Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Chandra. I *really* dislike Chandra in general, so that might just be my bias.
Youre right, I feel like I would rather have more xenagos than chandra. Another thing about her... if you play her and you ever reach ultimate, you want spells in the deck wthat work with it. I dont feel like there are any spells in there that make it really pop or give you late game reach, which is really what Jund is about. Even some deathrite shamans would be helpful in that regard.
IDK how sold I am on any build without some rakdos key runes either. They can go a long way helping you stretch the game into your threats, or ramp into them a turn sooner.
Mortars needs to be in the main. It acts as a dreadbore pretty often, but is versatile enough to be a sweeper if needed and hits BBoV which is extremely relevant. Did he share anything about a sideboard? If not what would you think would be in there?
I'm thinking something along the lines of
3x mistcutter hydra
3x witchstalker
4x anger of the gods
2x whip of erebos
3x lifebane zombie
but hey I havent been playing Jund in a while, i just wanted to try out something new and this sounded like fun haha.
I've been playing a lot of Golgari Midrange and Mono-Blue lately, both fun decks, but I keep coming back to Jund and tweaking away. The deck has been getting better and better and now it's really got some juice I believe.
My current deck, and then the thought-process behind the choices:
I've adopted a few of the suggestions from this thread and am very happy with the versatility it offers. The deck has 3 different modes depending on the sideboard plan, revolving around interchanging Mistcutter Hydras, Thoughtseize and Anger of the Gods. Anger is what keeps us alive vs heavy aggro, and although it does awkwardly kill our own Caryatids, we can use Golgari Charm instead if its mostly x/1s we're dealing with. Thoughtseize against control and midrange, and Mistcutters against Mono-Blue most obviously, but also as a nice way to lower our curve a bit casting smaller hydras earlier. I actually start with the Mistcutters in the MB as I think they give the deck the most push against an unknown opponent. I used to MB Thoughtseize instead, but kept getting run over in G1 as my local meta is very aggro heavy with a lot of mono-blue as well. Mono-black has receded a bit, and this has worked out pretty well so far.
The main change has been the adoption of the Exava + Kalonian Hydra combo, I felt like my last list was lacking a reliable finisher and this has been winning me a lot of games the past couple of weeks. I was indeed underestimating Primeval Bounty as well, and overvaluing the whip, as SpookyDoom suggested. I still like the whip, but am much more excited to cast something else at 4cmc and then drop PB at 6. I was testing with Underworld Cerberus briefly, but honestly I don't think I ever even drew it. It's probably still better than Boon Satyr, but I do still like the surprise attack factor, so I've stuck with that for the time being.
The manabase is stable with the Caryatids, and if Burning Earth ever hits the table, we've got Golgari Charm (which, I swear, might be worth a 4 of if there was room... all 3 modes are fantastic at the moment). We don't have as much removal as other decks, but we have several angles of attack. T1 and T2 are generally positioning, and we may take some damage... but a T2 Caryatid can lead us into stabilizing quickly and potentially ending the game in a few more turns with the right draws. Exava + either Hydra is just so strong.
Speaking of Hydras, I have tested Polukranos extensively and just don't like him in this deck. I think I'd rather play Vastwood Hydra just for the synergy with Exava, although I'm still not going to play that card
Anyhow, I have been having more success with this than with the Domri build, and think its a dark horse in the meta right now. It is very resilient against pretty much everything--just need good draws.
If Born of the Gods brings us any major new threats, Jund will be right back at the top I think. Its pretty close as it is.
Youre right, I feel like I would rather have more xenagos than chandra. Another thing about her... if you play her and you ever reach ultimate, you want spells in the deck wthat work with it. I dont feel like there are any spells in there that make it really pop or give you late game reach, which is really what Jund is about. Even some deathrite shamans would be helpful in that regard.
IDK how sold I am on any build without some rakdos key runes either. They can go a long way helping you stretch the game into your threats, or ramp into them a turn sooner.
Mortars needs to be in the main. It acts as a dreadbore pretty often, but is versatile enough to be a sweeper if needed and hits BBoV which is extremely relevant. Did he share anything about a sideboard? If not what would you think would be in there?
I'm thinking something along the lines of
3x mistcutter hydra
3x witchstalker
4x anger of the gods
2x whip of erebos
3x lifebane zombie
but hey I havent been playing Jund in a while, i just wanted to try out something new and this sounded like fun haha.
That was his SB, he didn't really expand much on the deck, but I'm not so sure about mizzium mortars in the main, but I do like the idea of adding maybe anger of the gods, and more downfalls, cutting a stormbreath and an ooze and adding some other threat, not sure what though. I really think Whip should be in the maindeck here, because that card is just incredibly powerful.
Youre right, I feel like I would rather have more xenagos than chandra. Another thing about her... if you play her and you ever reach ultimate, you want spells in the deck wthat work with it. I dont feel like there are any spells in there that make it really pop or give you late game reach, which is really what Jund is about. Even some deathrite shamans would be helpful in that regard.
The thing about Chandra is that you don't play her to ultimate her. Usually you +1 her the turn you play her but you almost always 0 her afterwards. She's a card advantage machine! Drawing an extra card each turn is crazy good. Xenagos just doesn't fit in the Jund deck type. You don't play enough creatures to ramp and sure the haste creatures are nice but they don't do more than chump late game
The thing about Chandra is that you don't play her to ultimate her. Usually you +1 her the turn you play her but you almost always 0 her afterwards. She's a card advantage machine! Drawing an extra card each turn is crazy good. Xenagos just doesn't fit in the Jund deck type. You don't play enough creatures to ramp and sure the haste creatures are nice but they don't do more than chump late game
You aren't drawing another card every turn, you're exiling a card that has to be used that turn otherwise it's gone, it's not anywhere near as good as you think she is, she's just a trap card in midrange decks. I don't want to draw my removal on an empty board and have it go to waste.
There's so many chances for Chandra to brick it's not worth putting her in the deck let alone as a four of, I don't know why you think it is.
Xenagos is good because of the 2/2 haste creature, but I wouldn't run more than two of him at any given time, you could probably make a case for garruk, but you'd need to retool the deck to be able to make use of him, but running no planeswalkers might be better than running any.
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I have thought about working PB in-- though I wouldn't do it at expense of a whip. I have found the whip to be crucial in stabilizing mid/late game, and racing mono-black until we can draw one of our many spells that can destroy an opposing whip. We dont get as much value from it as other decks do, but we need the lifelink. We're living in a whip or be whipped standard, I want it out every game.
The one big change I can't seem to get settled on, though, is Underworld Connections. I've been running 3 but was testing a 2 Read The Bones w/ 1 UC split & liked that quite a bit. We don't need as much sheer CA or devotion, we just need to find the right cards for the current board state, which RTB is a little better at.
So at least in my list, I think I'd cut one of the draw spells for Primeval Bounty. Or maybe keep it SB for the games I've got some breathing room to work with. It's not unrealistic to be casting it on turn 4 or 5, but you usually want to be casting Xenagos, Reaper, Demon, Vraska etc these turns. If you're comfortably playing Primeval Bounty, you are probably already winning the game. Nice way to lock it up, though.
Also, Golgari Charm is amazing right now. Just destroys mono-red & naya control. I'm definitely putting 1 more in there somewhere.
I understand how an extra sweeper would help against Elspeth (not as much against mono red which has a bunch on toughness 2 creatures), but how about a Mainboard solution? I'm using a singleton or doublet Underworld Cerberus? The Boon Satyr is oddly positioned; best used as a five drop insurance against removal, will keep you stonewalled against the mirror/Xenagos tokens. Cerberus offers evasion and some wrath protection.
I think I agree on the RTB/UC. I agree on the logic, though. If you go more Primeaval Bounty, though; UC would be better, obviously.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
4 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures: 17
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Dreadbore
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Putrefy
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Xenagos, The Reveler
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Underworld Connections
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mistcutter Hydra
This was my record in the prelim:
2-0 mono blue devotion
2-0 mono red aggro
2-0 opponent didn't show up
0-2 esper devotion (esper control with master, nightveil, and thassa. Had no idea what to board in, aside from thoughtsieze)
2-0 gruul devotion
1-2 mono red devotion
I also just 3-1'ed a dialy with this, my record was:
2-1 Boros aggro
1-2 Burn (yes this is a deck)
I only won game 1 here because he was stuck on one land. This deck scares the crap out of me, we have no way to interact with it, I'm strongly considering moving the returns to the board (taking out chandra) and putting in bow of nylea in the main to help shore up the aggro matchup, as well as this one. I feel like if I could just gain 3 life a turn he'd be screwed.
2-1 Mono red aggro (bow would have been awsome here)
2-1 Gruul Devotion
Chandra underperfomed most of the time, I'm also afraid to board her in in most matchups, since alot of decks have fliers. She's going to get cut.
I'm not 100% sure about xenagos. Sometimes you get insane draws where his +1 helps you monstrous polukranos and dragon, but usually he just pumps out 2/2's, which is sometimes enough. But I feel like this spot could be better used.
Putrefy ended up being alot better than I thought it would be since it can hit weapons, I almost didn't put it in here and I probably would have lost a game or two because of it.
I think I'm going to cut chandra, put the returns in the board, and maindeck 2 bow of nylea. I like bow because it's a way to "permenantly" deal with chandra's pheonix, and it gains you life. I could also see the +1/+1 counter mattering and there might be a corner case scenario where you can take away targets from an opposing ooze.
Does anyone have any better options than xenagos? I'm also considering maybe cutting a dragon, but I'm not too sure about that. I'd really like something to do at 3 mana besides killing something and boon satyr is really bad for this deck.
EDIT:
I just tested out the bow, and holy crap it's good. Every game I got it the aggro decks just couldn't keep up with it. It's awsome. I also ended up cutting xenagos, moved the returns main, and put a 3rd bow and duress into my sideboard.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
It also can't hit the bident. And alot of the big threats dodge it, master of waves, desecration demon, stormbreath dragon, polukranos, etc....
After playing against mono black devotion, I agree with you. I need something that can hit their connections and golgari charm is basically just naturalize in that matchup. I'm going to fit 3 copies of abrupt decay in the main, cutting putrefy and I'll cut the whips and put in a rakdos keyrune. The whips really aren't that great here. Bow gains enough life and doesn't require creatures.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
4 Blood Crypt
3 Forest
3 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
3 Swamp
3 Temple of Abandon
Creatures: 19
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Desecration Demon
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Kalonian Hydra
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Golgari Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Underworld Connections
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Rakdos's Return
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Slaughter Games
This is a more aggressive, slightly more threat-heavy list that I'm liking quite a bit. The primary threat is Exava into Kalonian Hydra, which can be turn four with a Caryatid. The manabase is pretty solid - I'm happy with where it's at. Hoping they print a temple in Golgari colors for the next set...
The reason why I went with Kalonian over Stormbreath in the five-slot is for a few reasons:
Cards that exceeded expectations:
Cards that feel underperforming:
In the end, I'm reasonably sure that Kalonian isn't really *better* than Stormbreath, just different. It's working very well so far, and definitely worth testing out fully.
Been having a lot of fun with this deck, and I feel like Jund's got legs for sure.
Seriously, you have a battle plan that revolves around heavy aggro/Combo and Desecration demon is the first creature that'll get stonewalled by every card in an opponent's deck. He works with Varolz, and then again only with resilient or evasive creatures. I've experimented with SB Anger of the Gods, but in practice there isn't enough red sources for it to happen consistently turn 3... Unless you cast Sylvan Caryatid first.
Anywho, check my sig and look over what I have. I'll tell you one thing though: Turbo Hydra is very much a combo deck. You really have to commit as much as possible for it to reap dividends.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I wouldn't say the battle plan is heavy aggro or combo at all - Exava and Hydra interact favorably, but I wouldn't call it a 'combo'. I don't think Kalonian is good enough to build a combo strategy around, anyway - it's not a resilient enough threat, its power level is not high enough, you can't find it when you need it, and it's almost never a kill the turn it hits the board. None of the things that make a combo strategy good are there. I think its best role is just as a strong creature with some incidental synergy, and hence its inclusion in my midrange list. It's strength is the automatic two turn clock it presents (or one turn, with haste).
I played a whole lot of that Domri Jund list, and it just never felt good. The low-curve creatures just aren't fast enough and aren't efficient enough. Kalonian is a nice curve-topper, but Stormbreath is probably better solely due to the baked in haste. Mono-red and R/G are far superior aggro plans overall. Being in Jund just slows the deck down with a weaker manabase - black adds very little to the aggro plan, but adds quite a lot to the midrange plan.
Using Domri as a removal spell is not where I want to be, either - running cards like Deadly Recluse offers very little over, say, a Putrefy, except giving you the ability to 2-for-1 yourself every time you need removal. Anything a Recluse fights will kill the recluse, and you've given up a potential card from Domri to do it. Sounds like a bad plan to me. At least Thrill-Kill can get in for some solid damage on an open (or thin) board - I would peg him as quite a bit better than Recluse.
A scavenge list with maindeck Varolz is I think why you'd be in Jund for aggro - going for an aggro plan with some extra staying power. However, scavenge is just okay and mostly win-more, and so is Varolz. Was never happy with that list either - very hard to come back from a disadvantaged board state, and no tools to force the board your way.
But anyway, this thread is about midrange. I think midrange is the place Kalonian wants to be, because we have at least some tools to defend it, ways to get value out of it if it doesn't stick, and can afford to run creatures that synergize well with it.
Say what you will about Hydra, but he only needs about two turns to shut-off a game. Which is far less that Dragon. And don't talk about Monstrous until you show me the mana base that can regularly unleash the Monstrous ability. I consider the Dragon to be far too mana-expensive for what it does.
Though I'm often of two minds between Deadly Recluse and Thrill-Kill Assassin, there's no denying there are too many flyers in standard for Domri to survive without Air defense, to the point that I'm looking at additional reach creatures. Cloudfin Raptor, Chandra's Pheonix, Desecration Demon, white with their new Pegasus Champion. Its also a good blocker on it's own, until you meet ash zealot and the weenie first strikers.
Black offers Underworld Cerberus, which is worth it in the control match-ups. Don't like it against aggro, though.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I'm not going to argue about Domri as removal - losing 1 card that costs two mana, a potential extra card, and effectively four loyalty toward Domri's ultimate at sorcery speed is not in any way comparable to a three mana one card at instant speed. Zero comparison. Domri as removal does not have even the faintest, most distant prayer of being a better play than an actual removal spell. That's not even considering the fact that Domri needs a second card *in play* in order for his -3 to do anything at all (a very specific second card, if the -3 is going to be helpful for your list), nor is it considering the fact that your opponent can remove your Recluse in response to you activating Domri, and you just gave away three loyalty and a potential card for nothing. Domri is NOT good removal. Period.
I could go on about Putrefy specifically, and how it kills things like god weapons, ratchet bombs, and Pithing Needles naming Domri, but that should be obvious.
He still *for sure* doesn't belong in midrange, and this is still the midrange thread.
I agree with you about Stormbreath's monstrous, in that it is not often relevant. It is expensive, but Jund with Caryatids can definitely hit seven mana reliably, especially in a control matchup where SBD is arguably at his best. SBD's monstrous is a nice thing to have, but not at the expense of doing pretty much anything else with that mana. If he's survived the first turn against a deck like Esper, either they don't have the removal (unlikely), or they were tapped out last turn and are just waiting until your attack step to Doom Blade it.
I am also perfectly aware of the clock Kalonian presents, which is, as I said, why I'd like to run him. I'm just saying it's not good enough to build a deck around it. It's just one possible winning line of many, and a not very durable one at that. Midrange doesn't get a lot of opportunities to put serious pressure on an opponent, and the fact that Kalonian demands an answer so strongly is valuable.
I have tried to fit in Underworld Cerberus in a lot of places, but the fact that his effect is symmetrical and shuts off your own Whip of Erebos makes him very unappealing. Whip is very strong with Kalonian Hydra, so that means Cerberus is out. If his ability was 'leaves the battlefield' and not 'dies', I might be sold since DSpheres/Chained to the Rocks/etc could not shut him down. I'd rather refill my hand with Underworld Connections and Whip dead things against control anyway - fewer opportunities for them to interact with a Whipped creature than a cast one. He also fits in at five, which would make him a one-of at the absolute maximum, since he'd either be taking the place of a Kalonian or bumping my curve up.
Just interested in hearing what is or isn't working for you guys.
I think we can hold off the creatures. I have 4 dreadbore, 4 abrupt decay, 2 mortars, 3 angers, and 1 hero's downfall main, and post board I bring in the 3rd mortars and 4th anger. The problem is lifegain. I can almost always run them out of creatures, but then they burn me out, or use act of treason on one of my win cons (sucks having that happen to a kalonian hydra :().
I've been bringing in 2 bows in those matchups, they are pretty slow (and tie up mana), but if you get it going it gives you an insane ammount of life, plus it shoots down chandra's pheonix. There's also the whip, which is really good, but again slow, and requires creatures. Another option is trading post, but the bow seems better than that.
Other options:
Thrull Parasite, I don't think we run enough black sources to make this work.
Pharika's Cure, again, I don't think we run enough black sources.
Crypt Incursion, makes ooze less effective, and anger exiles creatures, not sure if this would be good or not.
Nylea's disciple, basically a centaur healer that costs one more, but can gain more life.
Maybe it's right to run 2 bows and 2 disciples in the board? Seems pretty good to turn 3 the bow and turn 4 the disciple.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I have a feeling Jund is going to become a tier 1 deck again this season, altogether depending on the quality of 4-5 drop creatures in the coming sets. All it takes is one or two huntmaster/Olivia/Thragtusk replacements. The better the creatures available in midrange, the better Jund gets. Still having awesome removal (Hero's Downfall, Abrupt Decay, Anger of the Gods) and disruption (Thoughtseize, Rakdos's Return, Sire) gives the deck a solid utility package that is ultimately hinging on some super-value creatures. While I obviously don't expect Thragtusk-level bustedness, I do believe there's room at the 4-5 drop spots for slightly better creatures than either d-demon or reaper (I don't consider kalonian hydra and Exava as midrange cards, more so Aggro-ish).
I love the utility of Jund, I'm really just hoping for some super-value creatures to come out next.
After several more weeks of play-testing, I have settled on the following:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswalkers (5)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
Instants (6)
1 Golgari Charm
2 Putrefy
3 Abrupt Decay
Sorceries (8)
4 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Rakdos Keyrune
Lands (25)
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Mountain
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Underworld Connections
2 Golgari Charm
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Slaughter Games
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Thoughtseize
To summarize, the changes are as follows:
MAIN DECK
----------------------------------------------
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-2 Forest
----------------------------------------------
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Xenagos, the Reveler
+1 Temple of Abandon
+1 Swamp
SIDEBOARD
----------------------------------------------
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Vraska the Unseen
+1 Sire of Insanity
----------------------------------------------
-1 Mizzium Mortars
-1 Slaughter Games
-1 Primeval Bounty
-1 Putrefy
-2 Abrupt Decay
Most of the tweaks to the deck from the prior version have been driven by the prevalence of mono red aggro in my local meta--the main changes being moving Thoughtseize and Vraska to the sideboard, and main-decking multiple copies of Abrupt Decay. Against mono red, I typically bring in the Golgari Charms and Anger of the Gods--taking out all copies of Chandra and Rakdos's Return, and a copy of Stormbreath Dragon or Xenegos, depending on the specific matchup.
Preparing for aggro obviously makes the deck more vulnerable to control. I've tried to partially offset this by adding an additional copy of Xenegos, an additional Thoughtseize, and Sire of Insanity as a pseudo 3rd Rakdos's Return.
I went 4-0 earlier tonight in a local event vs. UW control (I'd consider this to be the deck's most favorable matchup), two variations of mono red aggro, and a Junk (Whip) Reanimator brew. The mono red matchups were obviously the toughtest, but the addition of Abrupt Decay did make a noticeable difference in game 1. Scavenging Ooze is still a champ...I'm considering finding room for a fourth copy in the sideboard (probably replacing Sire).
I definitely agree with the last post. I think Jund has a strong matchup against most of the field right now, and one or two powerful midrange creatures in Born of the Gods or Journey into Nyx could help push the archetype back into the Standard tier 1 limelight.
4 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Temple of Abandon
25 lands
4 Corpsejack Menace
4 Experiment One
4 Gyre Sage
4 Kalonian Hydra
2 Lotleth Troll
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Scavenging Ooze
22 creatures
2 Dreadbore
1 Flesh // Blood
2 Golgari Charm
2 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Mutant's Prey
2 Whip of Erebos
13 other spells
1 Bow of Nylea
3 Bramblecrush
2 Dreadbore
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gruul Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutant's Prey
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ranger's Guile
1 Slaughter Games
https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/6282025
it's 4th from the top.
played a couple of games with it. Plays pretty good even though it looks super janky.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
4x Sylvan Carayatid
2x Rakdos Keyrune
Beef
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Reaper of the Wilds
3x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Underworld Cerberus
3x Stormbreath Dragon
Splat
4x Dreadbore
4x Mizzium Mortars
2x Ultimate Price
3x Read the Bones
Oops I win
2x Rakdos's Return
2x Primeval Bounty
Turf
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Stomping Ground
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Blood Crypt
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain
4x Thoughtseize
3x Mistcutter Hydra
3x Golgari Charm
3x Flames of the Firebrand
2x Traitorous Instinct
It's by no means a perfect build (for example, I don't own any Anger of the Gods for the sideboard and I could use Putrefy I guess) but I believe my main contributions to this discussion is Underworld Cerberus and Primeval Bounty.
Underworld Cerberus is a beast of a card, and shuts down stupid Whips of Erebos. It also can't be killed by much removal and acts as Wrath insurance against the control decks.
Primeval Bounty is a card every deck like this should play. It's like a green Sphinx's Revelation: cast it and win 2 to 5 turns later. I cannot emphasize enough how awesome it has proven to be. It and Rakdos's Return are my 'oops I win' cards and every deck like this should run both.
I tested Xenagos, the Reveler out for a while but didn't like him because I felt he didn't do enough. Traitorous Instinct in the board is pretty funny secret tech I read about somewhere that goes great with all the Desecration Demons everyone's packing.
Creator of Nyxathid Goes To Town, the M:tG blog responsible for the most LoLs
http://nyxathidgoestotown.wordpress.com/
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4 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Planeswalkers (6)
4 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells (15)
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Read the Bones
4 Thoughtseize
1 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
3 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
I'm sure some numbers could be tweaked, like Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Chandra. I *really* dislike Chandra in general, so that might just be my bias.
IDK how sold I am on any build without some rakdos key runes either. They can go a long way helping you stretch the game into your threats, or ramp into them a turn sooner.
Mortars needs to be in the main. It acts as a dreadbore pretty often, but is versatile enough to be a sweeper if needed and hits BBoV which is extremely relevant. Did he share anything about a sideboard? If not what would you think would be in there?
I'm thinking something along the lines of
3x mistcutter hydra
3x witchstalker
4x anger of the gods
2x whip of erebos
3x lifebane zombie
but hey I havent been playing Jund in a while, i just wanted to try out something new and this sounded like fun haha.
My current deck, and then the thought-process behind the choices:
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Boon Satyr
4x Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Kalonian Hydra
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Golgari Charm
2x Rakdos's Return
3x Hero's Downfall
1x Putrefy
1x Read The Bones
2x Underworld Connections
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Primeval Bounty
3x Xenagos, The Reveler
Land (25)
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Blood Crypt
4x Stomping Grounds
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Mountain
2x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
2x Pithing Needle
1x Mistcutter Hydra
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Anger of the Gods
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
I've adopted a few of the suggestions from this thread and am very happy with the versatility it offers. The deck has 3 different modes depending on the sideboard plan, revolving around interchanging Mistcutter Hydras, Thoughtseize and Anger of the Gods. Anger is what keeps us alive vs heavy aggro, and although it does awkwardly kill our own Caryatids, we can use Golgari Charm instead if its mostly x/1s we're dealing with. Thoughtseize against control and midrange, and Mistcutters against Mono-Blue most obviously, but also as a nice way to lower our curve a bit casting smaller hydras earlier. I actually start with the Mistcutters in the MB as I think they give the deck the most push against an unknown opponent. I used to MB Thoughtseize instead, but kept getting run over in G1 as my local meta is very aggro heavy with a lot of mono-blue as well. Mono-black has receded a bit, and this has worked out pretty well so far.
The main change has been the adoption of the Exava + Kalonian Hydra combo, I felt like my last list was lacking a reliable finisher and this has been winning me a lot of games the past couple of weeks. I was indeed underestimating Primeval Bounty as well, and overvaluing the whip, as SpookyDoom suggested. I still like the whip, but am much more excited to cast something else at 4cmc and then drop PB at 6. I was testing with Underworld Cerberus briefly, but honestly I don't think I ever even drew it. It's probably still better than Boon Satyr, but I do still like the surprise attack factor, so I've stuck with that for the time being.
The manabase is stable with the Caryatids, and if Burning Earth ever hits the table, we've got Golgari Charm (which, I swear, might be worth a 4 of if there was room... all 3 modes are fantastic at the moment). We don't have as much removal as other decks, but we have several angles of attack. T1 and T2 are generally positioning, and we may take some damage... but a T2 Caryatid can lead us into stabilizing quickly and potentially ending the game in a few more turns with the right draws. Exava + either Hydra is just so strong.
Speaking of Hydras, I have tested Polukranos extensively and just don't like him in this deck. I think I'd rather play Vastwood Hydra just for the synergy with Exava, although I'm still not going to play that card
Anyhow, I have been having more success with this than with the Domri build, and think its a dark horse in the meta right now. It is very resilient against pretty much everything--just need good draws.
If Born of the Gods brings us any major new threats, Jund will be right back at the top I think. Its pretty close as it is.
2 Underworld Connections
1 Golgari Charm
4 Anger of the Gods
1 Duress
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Slaughter Games
That was his SB, he didn't really expand much on the deck, but I'm not so sure about mizzium mortars in the main, but I do like the idea of adding maybe anger of the gods, and more downfalls, cutting a stormbreath and an ooze and adding some other threat, not sure what though. I really think Whip should be in the maindeck here, because that card is just incredibly powerful.
4 Desecration Demon
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Underworld Cerberus
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
4 Forest
1 Mountain
5 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Stomping Ground
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Putrefy
1 Ultimate Price
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Pithing Needle
1 Polis Crusher
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Underworld Connections
3 Doom Blade
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ultimate Price
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Thoughtseize
Thinking of cutting a Thoughtseize for a Hammer of Purph.
Thoughtseize is good, should be main, DRS is just bad, remember that IQ's have a very low player count, under 90 generally, so it's not the best.
I really dislike this decklist though. Why 3 Caryatids? that's so random, Demon is so bad, and no Dragons? what is this guy doing.
The thing about Chandra is that you don't play her to ultimate her. Usually you +1 her the turn you play her but you almost always 0 her afterwards. She's a card advantage machine! Drawing an extra card each turn is crazy good. Xenagos just doesn't fit in the Jund deck type. You don't play enough creatures to ramp and sure the haste creatures are nice but they don't do more than chump late game
You aren't drawing another card every turn, you're exiling a card that has to be used that turn otherwise it's gone, it's not anywhere near as good as you think she is, she's just a trap card in midrange decks. I don't want to draw my removal on an empty board and have it go to waste.
There's so many chances for Chandra to brick it's not worth putting her in the deck let alone as a four of, I don't know why you think it is.
Xenagos is good because of the 2/2 haste creature, but I wouldn't run more than two of him at any given time, you could probably make a case for garruk, but you'd need to retool the deck to be able to make use of him, but running no planeswalkers might be better than running any.