So yeah, it's hard to put a legal crackdown on their activity (especially since they don't actually torture or kidnap anyone - they know their limits), and their victims don't help the case either. They can't turn to police because there's no:
The teens then show up for what they think is a date
THey don't show up for a date, they show up to prostitute themselves to adult guys - their victim in the article-linked video says himself that he was offered 5000 rubles (about $170) for a sex with an adult guy. Now, what do you think he's gonna say to the police? "Oh, I was totally trying to prostitute myself honestly, but those damn evil guys..."
Mind you, I'm not saying that he deserves it. He deserves psychological help, that's for sure, and totally not humiliation and bullying, but we're having a legal charlie francis here - so he engages into illegal activity and then the state is forced to somehow protect him legally. That's hard and this difficulty is multiplied by the age of participants.
This doesn't make any sense to me. Why should a victim doing something illegal also prevent the police from intervening?
Also, I'm curious on your take on Russia's new anti-gay laws. Why does Russia ban pride rallies? Why is it necessary to fine and imprison people for "homosexual propoganda"?
This doesn't make any sense to me. Why should a victim doing something illegal also prevent the police from intervening?
Because police is no batman, obviously, they have their procedures and they need the victim's statement to start a case. And if the victim was doing something illegal, they can't just pat him on his back and say "it's ok, buddy, you've already suffered enough", they have to prosecute him too. That's why the victims of these cases stay silent - because they'll be prosecuted themselves if they go to the police. Now, I'm not sure what's the punishment for child prostitution if it's the child himself who initiates said prostitution (such situation feels surreal to me, honestly), but I doubt they'll just let him go - it's gonna be a lot of troubles.
Also, I'm curious on your take on Russia's new anti-gay laws. Why does Russia ban pride rallies? Why is it necessary to fine and imprison people for "homosexual propoganda"?
Umm, no. Fine - yes, although for individual persons the fine is relatively small, $130-170. Imprisonment - where have you read that? Maybe they also wrote that it's public flogging, quartering and burning at the stake?
And there's no ban on the pride rallies - the law touches only gay propaganda aimed at the kids. As long as you do your rally or speech or whatever in a place where there's no kids - you're fine. Yeah, I understand that doing parade in a place with no kids means doing it somewhere out of the city and that kinda cancels the point of parade, but...
That's one thing about russian mentality. Public showings of sexuality are somewhat unwelcome here. Even for a heterosexual couples - like, holding hands is ok, but if you go passionately smooching around people you're bound to attract lots of unkind gazes. And an elderly person or two may even shout at you for indecency - I've experienced that myself. You keep that stuff to yourself, generally.
Also, talks about sexuality to the kids is usually a no-no. Well, I can't speak for the whole nation, but I don't know many persons who've had that awkward, awkward conversation with parents as a teenagers. Sex. ed. is also more or less nonexistent here. Like, you don't talk about this stuff often.
Therefore, gay parades go absolutely against russian mentality, and any kind of talks about gayness with kids also goes against it. And I'm not sure if homophobia is the one and only reason here.
Because police is no batman, obviously, they have their procedures and they need the victim's statement to start a case. And if the victim was doing something illegal, they can't just pat him on his back and say "it's ok, buddy, you've already suffered enough", they have to prosecute him too. That's why the victims of these cases stay silent - because they'll be prosecuted themselves if they go to the police. Now, I'm not sure what's the punishment for child prostitution if it's the child himself who initiates said prostitution (such situation feels surreal to me, honestly), but I doubt they'll just let him go - it's gonna be a lot of troubles.
I can understand that some cases would require a victim's statement if there was not other evidence, but when you have incontrovertible video evidence, why would you need the testimony of the victim?
Furthermore, you state that it's the attackers who make the offer of prostitution. How can one ever prosecute soliciting sex with a minor, if the minor's acceptance makes the case impossible to handle?
Umm, no. Fine - yes, although for individual persons the fine is relatively small, $130-170. Imprisonment - where have you read that? Maybe they also wrote that it's public flogging, quartering and burning at the stake?
The law allows foreigners convicted to be imprisoned for two weeks and then be deported.
- the law touches only gay propaganda aimed at the kids. As long as you do your rally or speech or whatever in a place where there's no kids - you're fine. Yeah, I understand that doing parade in a place with no kids means doing it somewhere out of the city and that kinda cancels the point of parade, but...
Doesn't this strike you as completely insane?
That's one thing about russian mentality. Public showings of sexuality are somewhat unwelcome here. Even for a heterosexual couples - like, holding hands is ok, but if you go passionately smooching around people you're bound to attract lots of unkind gazes. And an elderly person or two may even shout at you for indecency - I've experienced that myself. You keep that stuff to yourself, generally.
Also, talks about sexuality to the kids is usually a no-no. Well, I can't speak for the whole nation, but I don't know many persons who've had that awkward, awkward conversation with parents as a teenagers. Sex. ed. is also more or less nonexistent here. Like, you don't talk about this stuff often.
Therefore, gay parades go absolutely against russian mentality, and any kind of talks about gayness with kids also goes against it. And I'm not sure if homophobia is the one and only reason here.
How odd that there isn't a law against heterosexual propaganda to children. Why is it that kids hearing about homosexuality is so dangerous as to require a special law, but one is not required for heterosexuality?
Don't you think that preventing homosexuals from being open about who they are is a violation of their rights?
So, go ahead and be misinformed if you like, but the sad truth is that you are wrong. And what was the man doing? Standing around holding a sign that read, “Being gay and loving gays is normal. Beating gays and killing gays is criminal."
He could face a $150, as well as imprisonment for it. While if a foreigner is arrested, the fine could be up to $3,000 with imprisonment and deportation.
So, go ahead and be misinformed if you like, but the sad truth is that you are wrong. And what was the man doing? Standing around holding a sign that read, “Being gay and loving gays is normal. Beating gays and killing gays is criminal."
He could face a huge fine of $3,000, as well as imprisonment for it.
The article says he could face $150 in fines and no prison time. Which, while still reprehensible, is not $3000. Realistically I think this is intentionally set up as a test case (just like the Texas sodomy case), and the whole point is to attack the law in court.
I can understand that some cases would require a victim's statement if there was not other evidence, but when you have incontrovertible video evidence, why would you need the testimony of the victim?
I'm no lawyer so I can't give you precise answer, but from what I understand russian legislation has a real problem with video evidence because of the way the laws are written. Like, it's too hard to prove that the video is not fake - it's a global problem that has nothing to do with homophobia.
Furthermore, you state that it's the attackers who make the offer of prostitution. How can one ever prosecute soliciting sex with a minor, if the minor's acceptance makes the case impossible to handle?
I don't state such a thing - attackers make some sort of a deal, but it's unclear who comes with the offer first. I've seen some vk screenshots in the videos, but kids there are as eager to engage in the sexual acts as their supposed "sugar daddies" are. Considering how legally careful attackers are in their affairs, chances are that they're precisely fishing for victims who make the first move themselves.
And you're not reading carefully - adults don't pick on minors, it's minors who pick on minors, it's about a minor (who poses as an adult man) making a supposed deal with another minor (who either offers or accepts to be a prostitute). It's very hard to understand exactly which laws to apply here, and even if there won't be any legal repercussions, there surely will be social one - contrary to what that article leads you to believe, these cases aren't they public. But once they'll go to the court, they'll become public as hell. And I doubt victims want the whole country to know about this affair. Besides, since bullies here are very careful, there's no guarantees that their punishment will exceed the damage to the victim's life caused by public revelation.
The law allows foreigners convicted to be imprisoned for two weeks and then be deported.
Yes, but only foreigners and only for two weeks (and that's in extreme cases - in common ones it's just immediate deportation). That's a big difference from "the law allows to imprison gays".
How odd that there isn't a law against heterosexual propaganda to children. Why is it that kids hearing about homosexuality is so dangerous as to require a special law, but one is not required for heterosexuality?
Don't you think that preventing homosexuals from being open about who they are is a violation of their rights?
Please, keep your agenda to yourself. The only thing that interests me here is neo-cold war attempt to portray an entire nation as some kind of nazi-homophobe hybrid and I'm just portraying blatant lies and fallacies in the article. This discussion about gay marriage, gay rights or whatever is absolutely offtopic here and also barren (all I see is some guys swinging the same tired arguments back and forth), so I wish no part of it.
To put it simply - no matter how democratic your country is, goading officials into direct conflict never ends well. Mind you, I don't say that's good - it's just how the things are.
I'm no lawyer so I can't give you precise answer, but from what I understand russian legislation has a real problem with video evidence because of the way the laws are written. Like, it's too hard to prove that the video is not fake - it's a global problem that has nothing to do with homophobia.
I don't state such a thing - attackers make some sort of a deal, but it's unclear who comes with the offer first. I've seen some vk screenshots in the videos, but kids there are as eager to engage in the sexual acts as their supposed "sugar daddies" are. Considering how legally careful attackers are in their affairs, chances are that they're precisely fishing for victims who make the first move themselves.
And you're not reading carefully - adults don't pick on minors, it's minors who pick on minors, it's about a minor (who poses as an adult man) making a supposed deal with another minor (who either offers or accepts to be a prostitute). It's very hard to understand exactly which laws to apply here, and even if there won't be any legal repercussions, there surely will be social one - contrary to what that article leads you to believe, these cases aren't they public. But once they'll go to the court, they'll become public as hell. And I doubt victims want the whole country to know about this affair. Besides, since bullies here are very careful, there's no guarantees that their punishment will exceed the damage to the victim's life caused by public revelation.
C'mon now. These excuses are completely ridiculous. If the police wanted to prosecute these cases, they absolutely could.
Yes, but only foreigners and only for two weeks (and that's in extreme cases - in common ones it's just immediate deportation). That's a big difference from "the law allows to imprison gays".
Who's talking about imprisoning gays? I specifically said:
Why is it necessary to fine and imprison people for "homosexual propoganda"?
Don't try to dodge the question by pretending that I was asking about something else.
But that's local Moscow law, having nothing to do with the entirety of Russia.
Does that make it somehow okay? You're completely avoiding the issue.
Please, keep your agenda to yourself. The only thing that interests me here is neo-cold war attempt to portray an entire nation as some kind of nazi-homophobe hybrid and I'm just portraying blatant lies and fallacies in the article. This discussion about gay marriage, gay rights or whatever is absolutely offtopic here and also barren (all I see is some guys swinging the same tired arguments back and forth), so I wish no part of it.
It seems very relevant to me. The question is whether Russia has an institutionalized problem with the way it treats its gay citizens. The answer appears to be a resounding "yes". Do you disagree with that assessment?
To put it simply - no matter how democratic your country is, goading officials into direct conflict never ends well. Mind you, I don't say that's good - it's just how the things are.
The fine for the chalk was immediately withdrawn. What do you think the chances are that the same happens for the man with the sign?
C'mon now. These excuses are completely ridiculous. If the police wanted to prosecute these cases, they absolutely could.
Umm, have you actually read my original post? The police is prosecuting these cases - I've even posted some links where they write about that (and some senator ordering them to do so). We were talking about why won't the victims themselves turn to the police.
Don't try to dodge the question by pretending that I was asking about something else.
So I've done some research and, unfortunately for you, it's just a standard deportation procedure - persons who are to get deported from the country must wait for their deportation in a special "foreigner jail" (which, apparently, is a common and world-wide practice when it comes to deportations). And that's if they can't be deported immediately - up to 15 days because that's the term in which deportation must be commenced.
So it's not about them spreading gay propaganda, it's about them being deported. Also, my quick research tells me that this prison is small and usually overcrowded, so they let many people just hang around somewhere until the moment of their deportation.
Does that make it somehow okay? You're completely avoiding the issue.
And, pray tell me, why should I have any sort of opinion, either positive or negative, on that issue?
It seems very relevant to me.
The fine for the chalk was immediately withdrawn. What do you think the chances are that the same happens for the man with the sign?
I don't think that withdrawal of the fine somehow fixes the man being arrested and, basically, bullied. Fine is not the biggest issue here - it's the ability to express your opinion without a fear of any kind of reprisal (even a temporary one).
But these words of yours are the reason why you'll receive no definite answers from me - you're not pursuing the justice here, you're pursuing your pet peeve. It's ok if it's not a gay issue? Well, ok is ok.
Umm, have you actually read my original post? The police is prosecuting these cases - I've even posted some links where they write about that (and some senator ordering them to do so). We were talking about why won't the victims themselves turn to the police.
You were suggesting that the police could not proceed without statements from the victims, because video evidence is apparently unreliable.
So I've done some research and, unfortunately for you, it's just a standard deportation procedure - persons who are to get deported from the country must wait for their deportation in a special "foreigner jail" (which, apparently, is a common and world-wide practice when it comes to deportations). And that's if they can't be deported immediately - up to 15 days because that's the term in which deportation must be commenced.
So it's not about them spreading gay propaganda, it's about them being deported. Also, my quick research tells me that this prison is small and usually overcrowded, so they let many people just hang around somewhere until the moment of their deportation.
I don't see the distinction. Why should they even be deported in the first place? If the deportation is unjust, so is the accompanying imprisonment.
And, pray tell me, why should I have any sort of opinion, either positive or negative, on that issue?
You are suggesting that Russia does not have a problem with homophobia. If you want to argue that point, you need to address apparent instances of homophobia, whether national or local.
I don't think that withdrawal of the fine somehow fixes the man being arrested and, basically, bullied. Fine is not the biggest issue here - it's the ability to express your opinion without a fear of any kind of reprisal (even a temporary one).
Right, but in the case of the chalker, the problem was the policeman, who made a mistake in enforcing the law. In Russia, the problem is with the law.
But these words of yours are the reason why you'll receive no definite answers from me - you're not pursuing the justice here, you're pursuing your pet peeve. It's ok if it's not a gay issue? Well, ok is ok.
The two largest cities in Russia banning gay pride parades? Not indicative of anything in particular about Russians and gays.
The fine for saying you're gay and that's ok is only $150. Oh, I guess it's NOT reflective of systemic homophobia. I'm not sure you understand how this works. ANY fine is reflective of systemic homophobia. There should be no fine for that.
Questioning why gays should have to stay in the closet? "Keep your agenda to yourself." This thread is about those bullying videos, unless it's about you defending Russia from accusations of homophobia. But you're kinda proving the point by dismissing his point as some nefarious "agenda". Yeah, not having to lie and hide is some agenda.
Also, being gay is not all about sex. A man saying "I'm gay" is not the same thing as giving a treatise on buttsex. You can make excuses like finding out that gay people exists is like telling children about anal sex, but it's really not. At all. It's about love. Telling children that sometimes men love other men and sometimes women love other women is not talking to children about sex. You can pretend that it is, but it's pretty obvious to anyone who realizes that gay people are full people and not sex robots that this is really about ensuring that children don't realize that gay people are normal people, not about protecting children from perverted dirty sex talk.
Sorry, but I'll trust the words of Russian gay activists like Masha Gessen and RUSA LGBT over the word of someone who's clearly just making excuses. And no, America is not perfect. А у вас негров линчуют* is not an argument. I presume you're familiar with that phrase? Some guy getting arrested for chalk on a sidewalk in America is irrelevant to the oppression of gays in Russia.
*Translation: "But at your place Negroes are being lynched" i.e. "And in America, they lynch Negroes." A common refrain of the Soviets in response to accusations of human rights violations.
I am in no way going to try and condone anything the reds in the USS... I mean Russia are doing. They are scum for these acts of shameless hatred.
But I have to ask.... if Russia was doing this to a religion, would you guys care?
People around the world are killed, murdered, raped, and shunned for their religious beliefs. Even here in the US, people are fired for following a certain religion and for no other reason. It is acceptable to insult people of certain religion because it is found outlandish.
I feel like if Russia was doing this to a different group that isn't the flavor of the month, we wouldn't even have this thread, and that makes me sad.
And before anyone says differently, I am all for gay rights, who cares who people lay their head with.
I feel like if Russia was doing this to a different group that isn't the flavor of the month, we wouldn't even have this thread, and that makes me sad.
And before anyone says differently, I am all for gay rights, who cares who people lay their head with.
What ??? Why on earth would you feel this way? I can't even wrap my head around either part of this statement.
Calling gays "flavor of the month" and then shrugging off human rights abuses of them does not indicate that you are in favor of gay rights... in fact it makes the statement a hollow one when you say it.
"Who cares.." That is the problem. Apathy in the face of human rights violations.
"Who cares if blacks are being segregated and lynched, I am all for the rights of those people. We wouldn't even be talking about this if Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King et alii didn't make their group flavor of the month."
I feel like if Russia was doing this to a different group that isn't the flavor of the month, we wouldn't even have this thread, and that makes me sad.
And before anyone says differently, I am all for gay rights, who cares who people lay their head with.
What ??? Why on earth would you feel this way? I can't even wrap my head around either part of this statement.
Calling gays "flavor of the month" and then shrugging off human rights abuses of them does not indicate that you are in favor of gay rights... in fact it makes the statement a hollow one when you say it.
"Who cares.." That is the problem. Apathy in the face of human rights violations.
"Who cares if blacks are being segregated and lynched, I am all for the rights of those people. We wouldn't even be talking about this if Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King et alii didn't make their group flavor of the month."
Honestly? Because they are the flavor of the month. There are tons of human rights violations in the world, where is your bleeding heart for them? Where is the outrage? Where is the anger? Where the are rallies?
What Russia is doing is disgusting. Just because I think that there are OTHER PEOPLE who's LIVES ARE BEING DESTROYED OTHER than homosexuals doesn't mean I don't care. You either completely ignored my point or completely misunderstood me.
As a people we tend to choose one group and rally around them as the group that is the most down. Homosexuals this decade was previously africans, before them african americans, before them asian americans, before them jews, before them native americans, and so on and so forth. All I am trying to say is is that there are tons of groups that are persecuted, from the "harmless" jokes to the disregard for the sanctity of life, not JUST homosexuals.
Again, and I can't stress this enough, I DO CARE THAT THERE IS AN EGREGIOUS ATTACK ON HUMANS RIGHTS REGARDING HOMOSEXUALS AND RUSSIA. I AM SAYING OTHER PEOPLE'S RIGHTS ARE JUST AS TRAMPLED ON AND DO YOU CARE ABOUT THEM?
I feel like if Russia was doing this to a different group that isn't the flavor of the month, we wouldn't even have this thread, and that makes me sad.
And before anyone says differently, I am all for gay rights, who cares who people lay their head with.
What ??? Why on earth would you feel this way? I can't even wrap my head around either part of this statement.
Calling gays "flavor of the month" and then shrugging off human rights abuses of them does not indicate that you are in favor of gay rights... in fact it makes the statement a hollow one when you say it.
"Who cares.." That is the problem. Apathy in the face of human rights violations.
"Who cares if blacks are being segregated and lynched, I am all for the rights of those people. We wouldn't even be talking about this if Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King et alii didn't make their group flavor of the month."
Honestly? Because they are the flavor of the month. There are tons of human rights violations in the world, where is your bleeding heart for them? Where is the outrage? Where is the anger? Where the are rallies?
What Russia is doing is disgusting. Just because I think that there are OTHER PEOPLE who's LIVES ARE BEING DESTROYED OTHER than homosexuals doesn't mean I don't care. You either completely ignored my point or completely misunderstood me.
As a people we tend to choose one group and rally around them as the group that is the most down. Homosexuals this decade was previously africans, before them african americans, before them asian americans, before them jews, before them native americans, and so on and so forth. All I am trying to say is is that there are tons of groups that are persecuted, from the "harmless" jokes to the disregard for the sanctity of life, not JUST homosexuals.
Again, and I can't stress this enough, I DO CARE THAT THERE IS AN EGREGIOUS ATTACK ON HUMANS RIGHTS REGARDING HOMOSEXUALS AND RUSSIA. I AM SAYING OTHER PEOPLE'S RIGHTS ARE JUST AS TRAMPLED ON AND DO YOU CARE ABOUT THEM?
There is a reason why Russia is being targeted and others are not at the moment: Its a global super power. Third world countries are not expected to be as "civilized" as major countries. The world only focuses on those it views as being "equals", and many smaller nations are not seen as "equal" to Russia, America, Great Brittan, China, or any other industrialized nation. Instead, people look at them and think, "Look at those poor backwards people. They don't concern us because they are not a threat."
That is the sad truth about how things work. We believe that if the main countries act the same way, the rest of the world will follow suit. In time, we turn our attention to each walk of life, and when we see they are mistreated, we try to help them, but its the people closest to home, or the biggest threats, that catch our attention first.
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It's also based on which countries we feel we can influence to end which abuses.
I would think that Russia's mistreatment of minorities in the Caucasus would be a good thing to protest, seeing as Sochi is in an area that was previously inhabited by Circassians (a Caucasian people), who Russia committed genocide against in the 1800s.
But, you know, a right of return for the Circassian diaspora (as an example) probably isn't in the cards.
It's also based on which countries we feel we can influence to end which abuses.
I would think that Russia's mistreatment of minorities in the Caucasus would be a good thing to protest, seeing as Sochi is in an area that was previously inhabited by Circassians (a Caucasian people), who Russia committed genocide against in the 1800s.
But, you know, a right of return for the Circassian diaspora (as an example) probably isn't in the cards.
We can't fix the injustices of the past, but we can address those of the present in order to build a better future.
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It's also based on which countries we feel we can influence to end which abuses.
I would think that Russia's mistreatment of minorities in the Caucasus would be a good thing to protest, seeing as Sochi is in an area that was previously inhabited by Circassians (a Caucasian people), who Russia committed genocide against in the 1800s.
But, you know, a right of return for the Circassian diaspora (as an example) probably isn't in the cards.
We can't fix the injustices of the past, but we can address those of the present in order to build a better future.
I don't know if I want to build a future were we choose who's human rights are more hip than others to protect. Sorry, maybe I am just crazy.
It's also based on which countries we feel we can influence to end which abuses.
I would think that Russia's mistreatment of minorities in the Caucasus would be a good thing to protest, seeing as Sochi is in an area that was previously inhabited by Circassians (a Caucasian people), who Russia committed genocide against in the 1800s.
But, you know, a right of return for the Circassian diaspora (as an example) probably isn't in the cards.
We can't fix the injustices of the past, but we can address those of the present in order to build a better future.
I don't know if I want to build a future were we choose who's human rights are more hip than others to protect. Sorry, maybe I am just crazy.
What you are expecting is not even feasibly possible. Sorry, but its true. You cannot fight such a massive battle all at once, you have to take it step by step.
And let me tell you right now that I am slightly offended that you say equality for same-sex relationships is what is "hip" right now. You think people pay attention to us JUST because they want to? No, we have to make them pay attention to us so we can get our equal rights, just like those that came before us. Are we as bad off as the African-Americans were decades back? No, unless of course you are a member of the LGBT community living in Russia, but do we deserve our rights any less than them?
I know what you are getting at, but we cannot fix the whole world at once. That would cause war and poverty. There are those out there who refuse to accept that they are no better than those that work for them, or that they have forced to work for them. They will fight to the bitter end to see that the "lesser" people are kept as such. In order to fight the injustice, we must start small, and slowly build our resources and allies, and then start to change the world, little by little.
The reason why the LGBT community is seen everywhere nowadays is because of the people who demand to be treated like equals in the 1st World countries. Teachers have been fired for their sexual orientation in the US, UK, and Russia for many years. Those people used to sit idly by and let it happen, because they could not compare to the plight of the Hebrews or the African-Americans. Now that the races have equal rights, and women have been given their equal rights, the LGBT community is demanding their rights as well. You cannot demand that the whole world gives equal rights to everyone when there are still those in your own countries that do not have theirs.
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I don't know if I want to build a future were we choose who's human rights are more hip than others to protect. Sorry, maybe I am just crazy.
The topic of this thread is gay-bashing in Russia. Nobody has said anything one way or the other about other human rights issues in the world. It's not because we don't care; it's because the topic of this thread is gay-bashing in Russia. You're just trying to derail the thread while putting on a holier-than-thou act. Cut it out.
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I don't know if I want to build a future were we choose who's human rights are more hip than others to protect. Sorry, maybe I am just crazy.
The topic of this thread is gay-bashing in Russia. Nobody has said anything one way or the other about other human rights issues in the world. It's not because we don't care; it's because the topic of this thread is gay-bashing in Russia. You're just trying to derail the thread while putting on a holier-than-thou act. Cut it out.
So you go to name calling, because that doesn't derail the thread?
I apologize for derailing the thread, go back to a debate that doesn't exist because it seems most people in here think its despicable what Russia is doing to people because of what gender they are attracted to.
I was just genuinely curious if we will stand on soap boxes for other horrible attacks on human rights other than America's current trendy outrage.
I was just genuinely curious if we will stand on soap boxes for other horrible attacks on human rights other than America's current trendy outrage.
Then start a thread about another horrible attack on human rights and find out. Don't come in here and insinuate that everybody but you is a shallow trend-obsessed hypocrite based on absolutely nothing, then have the gall to complain that I'm calling you names.
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Now, perhaps the author didn't show enough proof for his words - it's true that christians aren't genocided around the middle-east (well, not often enough), but you don't have to go far to see that they're severely oppressed second-class citizens. I mean, how about this quite famous example, the Coptic Garbage City? Wiki article is extremely neutral on that one, but if you do some research on your own, you'll see what a little masterpiece of oppression that is.
Or, say, let's go to the appropriately named Genocide Watch and see what those spunky libyan rebels (I just love this term ,coined by some author at cracked.com, it's just awesome on so many indescribable levels) are doing. Boy, they are attacking christians! Oh, and black people too - maybe the op should've made a thread about that, about black people being genocided in middle-east? Would that be closer to the flavour of the month? Who knows.
Another mistake of the op was invoking Obama's name - you can say that that derailed the thread from the start. But does that really matter on these forums? I mean, I almost laughed when I saw this:
The topic of this thread is gay-bashing in Russia.
Pray tell me, if the topic of this thread is gay-bashing in Russia then why there are hundreds of comments talking about gay marriage in USA? I've got 30 responses per page in my settings and, while I haven't read the thread fully, it seems that there are whole pages where not a single comment regarding gay bashing in Russia. Why weren't those people warned, eh?
But I digress, back to the "christian genocide" threat - as you can easily see, not only it attracted much lesser attention than this thread, but, to quote one of the posters, the general consensus pretty much was:
There are certainly things to be upset about, but we should be careful to be upset about the right things.
After I point that your media uses half-truths at the best, blatant lies at the worst (a fact that everyone here seemed to ignore), the dude still hounds me, hoping that I either confess that I'm an heartless, evil homophobe or that Russia is an evil place where everyone eats gay babies for breakfast (mmm, sweet gay babies...) Surely we must be careful to be upset about the right things.
The point is that while these things are horrible, sure, there are unintended consequences to even the most innocent-seeming meddling in a foreign country.
But what if we apply it to this thread? What you people probably don't know is that the absolute majority of gay rights movements in Russia are sponsored from the west (or have extremely close ties to the liberal opposition, which in turn is sponsored and controlled by the west). So their work is as much about gay rights as it is about political struggle. And, surprisingly, sovereign countries hate when forces sponsored by other countries try to play any role on local political arena. You know, just like it was with McCarthyism.
So I'm not sure whether it's about crackdown on homosexuals or whether it's about political machinations. Truth to be told, we'll never know the entire truth, so what's the point? But I am amused by this "flavour of the month" thingie.
Finally, to show a slightly different example, let's remember the ***** Riots, those good, saintly girls, martyred by the tyrannic Putin for their defense of the gays. Everyone loves ***** Riot, obviously.
But what's about Femen? They're doing pretty much the same stuff, yet somehow no one loves them? And some people even dare to criticize them?
Maybe it's because they weren't jailed? I mean, I already see someone arguing about that. Yeah, being jailed for no reason is kinda sad, but what about this dude? Yeah, he wasn't all about gays, but heck, prison time for throwing a shoe is just as ridiculous and you can't wave it away by chanting "it's Iraq, it's horrible country, it doesn't count" - it's the government hand-picked by american forces, so... And yeah, there were some attention to him, but it wasn't half as loud as it was to ***** Riot.
I'd spoke more about this, but what's the point? Everyone will rationalize it anyway. I don't even intent to debate about this, honestly, I've wasted enough time in this thread already. We live in a horrible world where there's no morality - there's just the buzzword of the month (yeah, I prefer the word "buzzword" here) and what better suits us.
You're conflating whether people think it's wrong with whether they think there's anything to debate and what they think we can do about it.
Many Muslims countries are quite repressive to religious minorities. Egyptian Muslims have been attacking Coptic Christians both under Mubarak and since the revolution. Some of the Syrian rebel groups, who are Sunni (like the majority of Syrians), have been attacking all sorts of minorities, including Syrian Christians (and Kurds, who are mainly Sunni, but non-Arab).
This is clearly awful. Hence there's not going to be a lot of debate about whether it's awful.
But what should the US/West do about it? Well, we have some limitations in what we can achieve and what might backfire. We cannot invade for the protection of Christians without it being turned around by the Muslim fanatics as evidence of a Christian Crusade against Islam. Which could only make things worse.
It also doesn't have anything to do with the subject of the thread. Almost your entire post is just a gigantic tu quoque ad hominem argument.
What you people probably don't know is that the absolute majority of gay rights movements in Russia are sponsored from the west (or have extremely close ties to the liberal opposition, which in turn is sponsored and controlled by the west).
Do you have any evidence of this?
Sounds like you're just repeating a smear.
Although, yes, gay activists in one country might talk to gay activists in another country - this does not mean they're working for the West. And yes, they probably would ally with the opposition, considering they're opposed to the anti-gay actions of the government.
Do you find it hard to believe that there are Russian gay people and that they would want rights like anybody else? They must be foreign actors
But keep making sarcastic comments about how you we're demonizing you as homophobic on the basis of nothing. You continue to provide the evidence of its truth on your own.
What exactly is your point? You moved pretty quickly from claiming this "Occupy Pedophilia" thing is being exaggerated/distorted into basically being a whiny defensive little nationalist outraged that anyone would suggest there's homophobia in Russia and wildly accusing everyone of hypocrisy, as if that demonstrates that there's anything ok about what the Russian government is doing. Regardless of what's happening with those "skinheads", it's clear that the government is oppressing gay people and that there's significant homophobia in Russia supporting those oppressive actions.
There are certainly things to be upset about, but we should be careful to be upset about the right things.
After I point that your media uses half-truths at the best, blatant lies at the worst (a fact that everyone here seemed to ignore), the dude still hounds me, hoping that I either confess that I'm an heartless, evil homophobe or that Russia is an evil place where everyone eats gay babies for breakfast (mmm, sweet gay babies...) Surely we must be careful to be upset about the right things.
Or rather, I ask you to defend your over-arching point that the general problem of gay rights in Russia is misunderstood, and yet you somehow come to the delusional conclusion that it's about you.
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This doesn't make any sense to me. Why should a victim doing something illegal also prevent the police from intervening?
Also, I'm curious on your take on Russia's new anti-gay laws. Why does Russia ban pride rallies? Why is it necessary to fine and imprison people for "homosexual propoganda"?
Because police is no batman, obviously, they have their procedures and they need the victim's statement to start a case. And if the victim was doing something illegal, they can't just pat him on his back and say "it's ok, buddy, you've already suffered enough", they have to prosecute him too. That's why the victims of these cases stay silent - because they'll be prosecuted themselves if they go to the police. Now, I'm not sure what's the punishment for child prostitution if it's the child himself who initiates said prostitution (such situation feels surreal to me, honestly), but I doubt they'll just let him go - it's gonna be a lot of troubles.
Umm, no. Fine - yes, although for individual persons the fine is relatively small, $130-170. Imprisonment - where have you read that? Maybe they also wrote that it's public flogging, quartering and burning at the stake?
And there's no ban on the pride rallies - the law touches only gay propaganda aimed at the kids. As long as you do your rally or speech or whatever in a place where there's no kids - you're fine. Yeah, I understand that doing parade in a place with no kids means doing it somewhere out of the city and that kinda cancels the point of parade, but...
That's one thing about russian mentality. Public showings of sexuality are somewhat unwelcome here. Even for a heterosexual couples - like, holding hands is ok, but if you go passionately smooching around people you're bound to attract lots of unkind gazes. And an elderly person or two may even shout at you for indecency - I've experienced that myself. You keep that stuff to yourself, generally.
Also, talks about sexuality to the kids is usually a no-no. Well, I can't speak for the whole nation, but I don't know many persons who've had that awkward, awkward conversation with parents as a teenagers. Sex. ed. is also more or less nonexistent here. Like, you don't talk about this stuff often.
Therefore, gay parades go absolutely against russian mentality, and any kind of talks about gayness with kids also goes against it. And I'm not sure if homophobia is the one and only reason here.
I can understand that some cases would require a victim's statement if there was not other evidence, but when you have incontrovertible video evidence, why would you need the testimony of the victim?
Furthermore, you state that it's the attackers who make the offer of prostitution. How can one ever prosecute soliciting sex with a minor, if the minor's acceptance makes the case impossible to handle?
The law allows foreigners convicted to be imprisoned for two weeks and then be deported.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/not-the-onion-moscow-bans-gay-pride-for-next-100-years/258296/
Doesn't this strike you as completely insane?
How odd that there isn't a law against heterosexual propaganda to children. Why is it that kids hearing about homosexuality is so dangerous as to require a special law, but one is not required for heterosexuality?
Don't you think that preventing homosexuals from being open about who they are is a violation of their rights?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/05/dmitry-isakov-charged-russia-anti-gay_n_3868060.html
So, go ahead and be misinformed if you like, but the sad truth is that you are wrong. And what was the man doing? Standing around holding a sign that read, “Being gay and loving gays is normal. Beating gays and killing gays is criminal."
He could face a $150, as well as imprisonment for it. While if a foreigner is arrested, the fine could be up to $3,000 with imprisonment and deportation.
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The article says he could face $150 in fines and no prison time. Which, while still reprehensible, is not $3000. Realistically I think this is intentionally set up as a test case (just like the Texas sodomy case), and the whole point is to attack the law in court.
Not that thats a bad thing min you.
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I'm no lawyer so I can't give you precise answer, but from what I understand russian legislation has a real problem with video evidence because of the way the laws are written. Like, it's too hard to prove that the video is not fake - it's a global problem that has nothing to do with homophobia.
I don't state such a thing - attackers make some sort of a deal, but it's unclear who comes with the offer first. I've seen some vk screenshots in the videos, but kids there are as eager to engage in the sexual acts as their supposed "sugar daddies" are. Considering how legally careful attackers are in their affairs, chances are that they're precisely fishing for victims who make the first move themselves.
And you're not reading carefully - adults don't pick on minors, it's minors who pick on minors, it's about a minor (who poses as an adult man) making a supposed deal with another minor (who either offers or accepts to be a prostitute). It's very hard to understand exactly which laws to apply here, and even if there won't be any legal repercussions, there surely will be social one - contrary to what that article leads you to believe, these cases aren't they public. But once they'll go to the court, they'll become public as hell. And I doubt victims want the whole country to know about this affair. Besides, since bullies here are very careful, there's no guarantees that their punishment will exceed the damage to the victim's life caused by public revelation.
Yes, but only foreigners and only for two weeks (and that's in extreme cases - in common ones it's just immediate deportation). That's a big difference from "the law allows to imprison gays".
But that's local Moscow law, having nothing to do with the entirety of Russia.
Please, keep your agenda to yourself. The only thing that interests me here is neo-cold war attempt to portray an entire nation as some kind of nazi-homophobe hybrid and I'm just portraying blatant lies and fallacies in the article. This discussion about gay marriage, gay rights or whatever is absolutely offtopic here and also barren (all I see is some guys swinging the same tired arguments back and forth), so I wish no part of it.
And Beloved's question was already answered. Well, what can I say about that situation? I'll link this:
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/06/28/the-chalk-menace-pennsylvania-man-charged-with-writing-on-public-sidewalk-in-front-of-governors-mansion/
To put it simply - no matter how democratic your country is, goading officials into direct conflict never ends well. Mind you, I don't say that's good - it's just how the things are.
C'mon now. These excuses are completely ridiculous. If the police wanted to prosecute these cases, they absolutely could.
Who's talking about imprisoning gays? I specifically said:
Don't try to dodge the question by pretending that I was asking about something else.
Does that make it somehow okay? You're completely avoiding the issue.
It seems very relevant to me. The question is whether Russia has an institutionalized problem with the way it treats its gay citizens. The answer appears to be a resounding "yes". Do you disagree with that assessment?
The fine for the chalk was immediately withdrawn. What do you think the chances are that the same happens for the man with the sign?
Umm, have you actually read my original post? The police is prosecuting these cases - I've even posted some links where they write about that (and some senator ordering them to do so). We were talking about why won't the victims themselves turn to the police.
So I've done some research and, unfortunately for you, it's just a standard deportation procedure - persons who are to get deported from the country must wait for their deportation in a special "foreigner jail" (which, apparently, is a common and world-wide practice when it comes to deportations). And that's if they can't be deported immediately - up to 15 days because that's the term in which deportation must be commenced.
So it's not about them spreading gay propaganda, it's about them being deported. Also, my quick research tells me that this prison is small and usually overcrowded, so they let many people just hang around somewhere until the moment of their deportation.
And, pray tell me, why should I have any sort of opinion, either positive or negative, on that issue?
I don't think that withdrawal of the fine somehow fixes the man being arrested and, basically, bullied. Fine is not the biggest issue here - it's the ability to express your opinion without a fear of any kind of reprisal (even a temporary one).
But these words of yours are the reason why you'll receive no definite answers from me - you're not pursuing the justice here, you're pursuing your pet peeve. It's ok if it's not a gay issue? Well, ok is ok.
You were suggesting that the police could not proceed without statements from the victims, because video evidence is apparently unreliable.
I don't see the distinction. Why should they even be deported in the first place? If the deportation is unjust, so is the accompanying imprisonment.
You are suggesting that Russia does not have a problem with homophobia. If you want to argue that point, you need to address apparent instances of homophobia, whether national or local.
Right, but in the case of the chalker, the problem was the policeman, who made a mistake in enforcing the law. In Russia, the problem is with the law.
What?
But it's not homophobia, I'm sure.
The two largest cities in Russia banning gay pride parades? Not indicative of anything in particular about Russians and gays.
The fine for saying you're gay and that's ok is only $150. Oh, I guess it's NOT reflective of systemic homophobia. I'm not sure you understand how this works. ANY fine is reflective of systemic homophobia. There should be no fine for that.
Questioning why gays should have to stay in the closet? "Keep your agenda to yourself." This thread is about those bullying videos, unless it's about you defending Russia from accusations of homophobia. But you're kinda proving the point by dismissing his point as some nefarious "agenda". Yeah, not having to lie and hide is some agenda.
Also, being gay is not all about sex. A man saying "I'm gay" is not the same thing as giving a treatise on buttsex. You can make excuses like finding out that gay people exists is like telling children about anal sex, but it's really not. At all. It's about love. Telling children that sometimes men love other men and sometimes women love other women is not talking to children about sex. You can pretend that it is, but it's pretty obvious to anyone who realizes that gay people are full people and not sex robots that this is really about ensuring that children don't realize that gay people are normal people, not about protecting children from perverted dirty sex talk.
I've seen pictures and videos of gay protesters in Russia. And it didn't look like the police were there to aid them much.
Sorry, but I'll trust the words of Russian gay activists like Masha Gessen and RUSA LGBT over the word of someone who's clearly just making excuses. And no, America is not perfect. А у вас негров линчуют* is not an argument. I presume you're familiar with that phrase? Some guy getting arrested for chalk on a sidewalk in America is irrelevant to the oppression of gays in Russia.
Masha Gessen: Get us the hell out of here
*Translation: "But at your place Negroes are being lynched" i.e. "And in America, they lynch Negroes." A common refrain of the Soviets in response to accusations of human rights violations.
But I have to ask.... if Russia was doing this to a religion, would you guys care?
People around the world are killed, murdered, raped, and shunned for their religious beliefs. Even here in the US, people are fired for following a certain religion and for no other reason. It is acceptable to insult people of certain religion because it is found outlandish.
I feel like if Russia was doing this to a different group that isn't the flavor of the month, we wouldn't even have this thread, and that makes me sad.
And before anyone says differently, I am all for gay rights, who cares who people lay their head with.
What ??? Why on earth would you feel this way? I can't even wrap my head around either part of this statement.
Calling gays "flavor of the month" and then shrugging off human rights abuses of them does not indicate that you are in favor of gay rights... in fact it makes the statement a hollow one when you say it.
"Who cares.." That is the problem. Apathy in the face of human rights violations.
"Who cares if blacks are being segregated and lynched, I am all for the rights of those people. We wouldn't even be talking about this if Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King et alii didn't make their group flavor of the month."
Honestly? Because they are the flavor of the month. There are tons of human rights violations in the world, where is your bleeding heart for them? Where is the outrage? Where is the anger? Where the are rallies?
What Russia is doing is disgusting. Just because I think that there are OTHER PEOPLE who's LIVES ARE BEING DESTROYED OTHER than homosexuals doesn't mean I don't care. You either completely ignored my point or completely misunderstood me.
As a people we tend to choose one group and rally around them as the group that is the most down. Homosexuals this decade was previously africans, before them african americans, before them asian americans, before them jews, before them native americans, and so on and so forth. All I am trying to say is is that there are tons of groups that are persecuted, from the "harmless" jokes to the disregard for the sanctity of life, not JUST homosexuals.
Again, and I can't stress this enough, I DO CARE THAT THERE IS AN EGREGIOUS ATTACK ON HUMANS RIGHTS REGARDING HOMOSEXUALS AND RUSSIA. I AM SAYING OTHER PEOPLE'S RIGHTS ARE JUST AS TRAMPLED ON AND DO YOU CARE ABOUT THEM?
There is a reason why Russia is being targeted and others are not at the moment: Its a global super power. Third world countries are not expected to be as "civilized" as major countries. The world only focuses on those it views as being "equals", and many smaller nations are not seen as "equal" to Russia, America, Great Brittan, China, or any other industrialized nation. Instead, people look at them and think, "Look at those poor backwards people. They don't concern us because they are not a threat."
That is the sad truth about how things work. We believe that if the main countries act the same way, the rest of the world will follow suit. In time, we turn our attention to each walk of life, and when we see they are mistreated, we try to help them, but its the people closest to home, or the biggest threats, that catch our attention first.
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I would think that Russia's mistreatment of minorities in the Caucasus would be a good thing to protest, seeing as Sochi is in an area that was previously inhabited by Circassians (a Caucasian people), who Russia committed genocide against in the 1800s.
But, you know, a right of return for the Circassian diaspora (as an example) probably isn't in the cards.
We can't fix the injustices of the past, but we can address those of the present in order to build a better future.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I don't know if I want to build a future were we choose who's human rights are more hip than others to protect. Sorry, maybe I am just crazy.
What you are expecting is not even feasibly possible. Sorry, but its true. You cannot fight such a massive battle all at once, you have to take it step by step.
And let me tell you right now that I am slightly offended that you say equality for same-sex relationships is what is "hip" right now. You think people pay attention to us JUST because they want to? No, we have to make them pay attention to us so we can get our equal rights, just like those that came before us. Are we as bad off as the African-Americans were decades back? No, unless of course you are a member of the LGBT community living in Russia, but do we deserve our rights any less than them?
I know what you are getting at, but we cannot fix the whole world at once. That would cause war and poverty. There are those out there who refuse to accept that they are no better than those that work for them, or that they have forced to work for them. They will fight to the bitter end to see that the "lesser" people are kept as such. In order to fight the injustice, we must start small, and slowly build our resources and allies, and then start to change the world, little by little.
The reason why the LGBT community is seen everywhere nowadays is because of the people who demand to be treated like equals in the 1st World countries. Teachers have been fired for their sexual orientation in the US, UK, and Russia for many years. Those people used to sit idly by and let it happen, because they could not compare to the plight of the Hebrews or the African-Americans. Now that the races have equal rights, and women have been given their equal rights, the LGBT community is demanding their rights as well. You cannot demand that the whole world gives equal rights to everyone when there are still those in your own countries that do not have theirs.
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candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
So you go to name calling, because that doesn't derail the thread?
I apologize for derailing the thread, go back to a debate that doesn't exist because it seems most people in here think its despicable what Russia is doing to people because of what gender they are attracted to.
I was just genuinely curious if we will stand on soap boxes for other horrible attacks on human rights other than America's current trendy outrage.
Then start a thread about another horrible attack on human rights and find out. Don't come in here and insinuate that everybody but you is a shallow trend-obsessed hypocrite based on absolutely nothing, then have the gall to complain that I'm calling you names.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Already done, lol. And it totally shows that it's all about
What's the thread, you say? To your great amazement, it's on the same forum page as this one - Genocide against Christians in the Middle East--and why Obama remains silent.
Now, perhaps the author didn't show enough proof for his words - it's true that christians aren't genocided around the middle-east (well, not often enough), but you don't have to go far to see that they're severely oppressed second-class citizens. I mean, how about this quite famous example, the Coptic Garbage City? Wiki article is extremely neutral on that one, but if you do some research on your own, you'll see what a little masterpiece of oppression that is.
Or, say, let's go to the appropriately named Genocide Watch and see what those spunky libyan rebels (I just love this term ,coined by some author at cracked.com, it's just awesome on so many indescribable levels) are doing. Boy, they are attacking christians! Oh, and black people too - maybe the op should've made a thread about that, about black people being genocided in middle-east? Would that be closer to the flavour of the month? Who knows.
Another mistake of the op was invoking Obama's name - you can say that that derailed the thread from the start. But does that really matter on these forums? I mean, I almost laughed when I saw this:
I'm getting another infraction for commenting on mod's actions (as if I cared), but this is preposterous.
Pray tell me, if the topic of this thread is gay-bashing in Russia then why there are hundreds of comments talking about gay marriage in USA? I've got 30 responses per page in my settings and, while I haven't read the thread fully, it seems that there are whole pages where not a single comment regarding gay bashing in Russia. Why weren't those people warned, eh?
But I digress, back to the "christian genocide" threat - as you can easily see, not only it attracted much lesser attention than this thread, but, to quote one of the posters, the general consensus pretty much was:
I also love this bit:
After I point that your media uses half-truths at the best, blatant lies at the worst (a fact that everyone here seemed to ignore), the dude still hounds me, hoping that I either confess that I'm an heartless, evil homophobe or that Russia is an evil place where everyone eats gay babies for breakfast (mmm, sweet gay babies...) Surely we must be careful to be upset about the right things.
And to quote another gem:
But what if we apply it to this thread? What you people probably don't know is that the absolute majority of gay rights movements in Russia are sponsored from the west (or have extremely close ties to the liberal opposition, which in turn is sponsored and controlled by the west). So their work is as much about gay rights as it is about political struggle. And, surprisingly, sovereign countries hate when forces sponsored by other countries try to play any role on local political arena. You know, just like it was with McCarthyism.
So I'm not sure whether it's about crackdown on homosexuals or whether it's about political machinations. Truth to be told, we'll never know the entire truth, so what's the point? But I am amused by this "flavour of the month" thingie.
Finally, to show a slightly different example, let's remember the ***** Riots, those good, saintly girls, martyred by the tyrannic Putin for their defense of the gays. Everyone loves ***** Riot, obviously.
But what's about Femen? They're doing pretty much the same stuff, yet somehow no one loves them? And some people even dare to criticize them?
Maybe it's because they weren't jailed? I mean, I already see someone arguing about that. Yeah, being jailed for no reason is kinda sad, but what about this dude? Yeah, he wasn't all about gays, but heck, prison time for throwing a shoe is just as ridiculous and you can't wave it away by chanting "it's Iraq, it's horrible country, it doesn't count" - it's the government hand-picked by american forces, so... And yeah, there were some attention to him, but it wasn't half as loud as it was to ***** Riot.
I'd spoke more about this, but what's the point? Everyone will rationalize it anyway. I don't even intent to debate about this, honestly, I've wasted enough time in this thread already. We live in a horrible world where there's no morality - there's just the buzzword of the month (yeah, I prefer the word "buzzword" here) and what better suits us.
Many Muslims countries are quite repressive to religious minorities. Egyptian Muslims have been attacking Coptic Christians both under Mubarak and since the revolution. Some of the Syrian rebel groups, who are Sunni (like the majority of Syrians), have been attacking all sorts of minorities, including Syrian Christians (and Kurds, who are mainly Sunni, but non-Arab).
This is clearly awful. Hence there's not going to be a lot of debate about whether it's awful.
But what should the US/West do about it? Well, we have some limitations in what we can achieve and what might backfire. We cannot invade for the protection of Christians without it being turned around by the Muslim fanatics as evidence of a Christian Crusade against Islam. Which could only make things worse.
It also doesn't have anything to do with the subject of the thread. Almost your entire post is just a gigantic tu quoque ad hominem argument.
Do you have any evidence of this?
Sounds like you're just repeating a smear.
Although, yes, gay activists in one country might talk to gay activists in another country - this does not mean they're working for the West. And yes, they probably would ally with the opposition, considering they're opposed to the anti-gay actions of the government.
Do you find it hard to believe that there are Russian gay people and that they would want rights like anybody else? They must be foreign actors
But keep making sarcastic comments about how you we're demonizing you as homophobic on the basis of nothing. You continue to provide the evidence of its truth on your own.
What exactly is your point? You moved pretty quickly from claiming this "Occupy Pedophilia" thing is being exaggerated/distorted into basically being a whiny defensive little nationalist outraged that anyone would suggest there's homophobia in Russia and wildly accusing everyone of hypocrisy, as if that demonstrates that there's anything ok about what the Russian government is doing. Regardless of what's happening with those "skinheads", it's clear that the government is oppressing gay people and that there's significant homophobia in Russia supporting those oppressive actions.
Or rather, I ask you to defend your over-arching point that the general problem of gay rights in Russia is misunderstood, and yet you somehow come to the delusional conclusion that it's about you.