"Why choose to accuse all of your scumreads at the same time?"
Because I like solving the game on Day 1.
And duh? Like I said, busing early worked splendidly for DYH in round 1 - I see no reason the scum wouldn't immediately try to distance in this game as a result. After all, Cyan was the only one paranoid enough to call out DYH in the endgame, and he's scum in this game.
I don't get what this bit has to do with anything.
Looking back, your KoL push was also weird because you started the push with a lose-lose situation; either KoL was townreading you for something that she usually scumreads you for, or she was townreading you for no reason.
I had a reason, though, and I explained it. Does that change anything?
Looking back, your KoL push was also weird because you started the push with a lose-lose situation; either KoL was townreading you for something that she usually scumreads you for, or she was townreading you for no reason.
Congratulations on discerning that my questioning of her was to help me figure out her alignment and not for strategic gain.
You have discovered that I am town and then acted confused by it.
Good job.
Congratulations on discerning that my questioning of her was to help me figure out her alignment and not for strategic gain.
You have discovered that I am town and then acted confused by it.
Good job.
I'm like, 800% sure you said something almost exactly like this to me in the last game.
If the Thor wagon gets bigger than the Vi wagon, consider my vote on it.
I would have figured this to be the case immediately after you mentioned your scum triumvirate.
[QUOTE=Nachomamma8;/comments/12598497]Tammy has been town since her opening; her play versus me as scum is not confrontational, and usually ends up as something that is as limited in her interactions with me as possible while still trying to look town and scumhunt. I have trouble imagining her as scum opening up so aggressively, especially when she doesn't have the same confidence in her scumgame as she does in her towngame. I liked her reachout to KoL because it felt like she was building up cred in being able to read me since her reads on me are usually more based on gut/tone than more tangible/easy to explain things. I also liked how her questioning of cyan/vote on cyouni played out; if she were scum, it looked like she was posturing to vote cyan in order to chainsaw Vi, but the end result ended up being a vote on an offshoot (and probably the best vote in the thread, so that's a bonus!).
How does this match up with the scum game i played that just ended. I think I interacted with you and confronted you early day one and day two. In fact you told me that the way I was trying to sort you was weird because I was trying to get you to follow me onto another person's wagon that you were townreading at the time, and then I voted you. I mean you're right that I don't have any confidence in my scum game and I like the read because it's right for the most part, but I am capable of interacting with you when I'm scum.
And if it was the best vote in the thread, how come you or nobody else is on it with me?
You never interacted, confronted, or reached out with me in the chosen mafia game. You had a lot of "hey nacho what do you think of mastin, hey nacho what do you think of mastin, hey nacho what do you think of mastin" which was empty and baseless, and then a smidgeon of "omfg mastin is so scum why aren't you listening to me???" (even though you know damn well I know when I'm reading mastin like a book), you attacked me for not explaining a read (what?), then townread me when I told you to. Then you got all excited about calling me town, asked me what I thought of mastin AGAIN, then asked me what I thought of bert. Your interactions with me that game were empty, cold, and easy; the selling point of your scumgame was the "I'm totally obvtown bit" and reactions to me when I started to get paranoid of you. Here, your reactions towards me were NOT "nacho what do you think of Cyan", they were "hey nacho you better town it up and get passionate on you or I'll spazz out on your ass and get you lynched" and "everybody trust my read on Nacho because I think I can read him" and "Nacho why are you letting Cyan off the hook so easily for such horse**** reasoning". The level of complexity of these interactions compared to those interactions are too much improvement in literally one game. I'll also note you never asked me to explain my read on you in that game, probably because you knew if you forced me to reread your slot I would get a little more uneasy with you.
I didn't end up following your vote because I learned last game that Cyouni votes are sort of easy, but they're not always good. I wanted the first vote that I put down to feel good.
Vote: Cyan
Thor currently feels like he's doing his damndest to make me lynch him which makes me uncomfortable on that wagon for now; I feel he has a better working knowledge of how to handle me as scum than he's displaying now. I don't like how Cyan is watching the Vi/Thor bit unravel, and I don't like how he's egging Thor on to keep attacking Vi; it reminds me of Thor's behavior towards me when I started attacking Iso last game.
Watching it unravel? What now? I still think that Vi is scum, and still want him to be lynched. Of course I am going to 'egg people on' to vote him. Thor's Timeline was just more compelling evidence that should lead to other people coming along.
I was hoping I was able to get you to realize that "He always ignores me = now this game he is interacting with me" is actually a good thing.
Or more concretely, ignoring Thor last game didn't turn out well and after the game ended Thor turned out to be surprisingly well-spoken, so it's worth a shot.
She is saying here that the purpose of the interaction was based on taking a shot on me being surprisingly well-spoken.
Her initial interaction was a really awkward attack off calling a reach in RVS scummy.
It doesn't add up.
Do you still think it does? What am I missing here?
[QUOTE=Nachomamma8;/comments/12598564]Looking back, your KoL push was also weird because you started the push with a lose-lose situation; either KoL was townreading you for something that she usually scumreads you for, or she was townreading you for no reason.
Congratulations on discerning that my questioning of her was to help me figure out her alignment and not for strategic gain.
You have discovered that I am town and then acted confused by it.
Good job.
This makes absolutely no sense.
Except it does.
You are acting wierded out by my push because it is a lose/lose. You type out that the 'lose' is that she was, functionally, town reading me based on bad logic.
You are correct, this is a lose/lose for scum to mess with because scumThor would be like, yay!
However, it is a win for town to mess with - because townThor wants to figure out DGB's alignment, and if she's scum buddying me then I don't care if she loses her town read of me, because she's scum.
Therefore, you identified that what I did had town motivation, and lacked scum motivation, and then you called bogus on it.
Vierni coasted all last game with terrible reads, LOLwagons, witticisms, and a lackadaisical approach. The scum never felt threatened by Vierni and she survived to LYLO.
This game, she gets wagon'ed early.
It's difficult to quantify "sadness" and "discomfort", let alone use it to
determine alignment.
But here is what I see as a response to the wagon:
"For what my unheeded words are worth"
"I freely admit to being totally confused"
"I'm basically just answering whatever I think it is you're asking because I don't feel compelled not to."
"Being able to get through to you was a hope that I forewent"
"I will concede that the #1 scumtell I commit as scum is claiming scum."
"it didn't end well either time."
"jilted-lover tingles"
"I'm being slightly more of a jerk this time around for entirely warranted reasons."
"I do better when I have someone to work with - a sounding board, if you will. People generally don't do that because they're damn jerks."
"I'm confused that you've locked yourself into a tunnel."
"...even when I try to be nice I still manage to insult people on a personal level."
"I don't have a lot worth saying that hasn't already been said"
That's for the emotional content.
More to the point is what I don't see. I don't see outrage. I don't see revolt. I don't see scumhunting. I don't see "oh crap I am unfairly wagoned, I'm going to show these idiots that they are wrong!""I am going to get accurate reads right now so that I can avenge my reputation in the dead QT!"
Nothing makes one more aware of the game dynamics than being wagoned themselves. Vierni is still oblivious.
I think Vierni rolled scum and was looking forward to dazzling us all with her scum game. And now she's sad, because it doesn't look so good anymore. EvilThor is caught her instead of being fooled by her, Brainless Goofball caught her... that worthless Iso that got wagoned and vig'ed early last game... how humiliating.
She's given up inside, she's trying to keep a brave front. But I see through it.
More to the point is what I don't see. I don't see outrage. I don't see revolt. I don't see scumhunting. I don't see "oh crap I am unfairly wagoned, I'm going to show these idiots that they are wrong!""I am going to get accurate reads right now so that I can avenge my reputation in the dead QT!"
I'm pretty sure I've been outraged, revolting (perhaps in more than one sense), and I even showed my analysis of the wagon against me in that chunk o' text I directed at Thor a couple of pages back. If you like, I can elaborate on how the basis of your vote in particular is the misinformation I quoted (never mind the bulk of your previous post which you expressly say is inconclusive) and the fact that I threatened your delusions of scumhunting grandeur, but only if it's necessary, y'know? I can even further damage your fragile self-valuation by noting that I wasn't NKd in the previous game in no small part because there was always a claimed power role ready to eat a bullet.
I mean, I can't really do much when 80% of the people actively posting are going to find anything I say scummy without thought (see "The Fox News of Mafia"), and while I feel a moral obligation to let youse know that the only thing worse than your reads is your logic in the most eloquently insulting way possible, it's not going to help things. I'm pretty unequivocally Town ITT and the people who have a demonstrated capacity for reading me have called me Town and aren't backing down from it, so it sounds like the problem is with you.
(Also, I kind of liked Iso's style, as mentioned before. :/ )
I'm pretty unequivocally Town ITT and the people who have a demonstrated capacity for reading me have called me Town and aren't backing down from it, so it sounds like the problem is with you.
This is wrong in about a dozen very obvious ways, LOL.
Watching it unravel? What now? I still think that Vi is scum, and still want him to be lynched. Of course I am going to 'egg people on' to vote him. Thor's Timeline was just more compelling evidence that should lead to other people coming along.
You went from getting paranoid of someone when they said "let's work together" to hi fiving Thor every time he advances a case on the person you're pushing.
[QUOTE=Nachomamma8;/comments/12598564]Looking back, your KoL push was also weird because you started the push with a lose-lose situation; either KoL was townreading you for something that she usually scumreads you for, or she was townreading you for no reason.
Congratulations on discerning that my questioning of her was to help me figure out her alignment and not for strategic gain.
You have discovered that I am town and then acted confused by it.
Good job.
This makes absolutely no sense.
Except it does.
You are acting wierded out by my push because it is a lose/lose. You type out that the 'lose' is that she was, functionally, town reading me based on bad logic.
You are correct, this is a lose/lose for scum to mess with because scumThor would be like, yay!
However, it is a win for town to mess with - because townThor wants to figure out DGB's alignment, and if she's scum buddying me then I don't care if she loses her town read of me, because she's scum.
Therefore, you identified that what I did had town motivation, and lacked scum motivation, and then you called bogus on it.
Keep clarifying here please.
You are currently claiming there is zero scum motivation for you to question a townread on yourself, which is actually not accurate at all. It's not scummy, which is fair, but it doesn't actually make you town.
@Nacho: A)Thor sounds townie, and B)he is pushing a case against the same person that I think is scum, in a way that does not sound, at all, like bussing. Of course I am going to cheer his efforts.
You are currently claiming there is zero scum motivation for you to question a townread on yourself, which is actually not accurate at all. It's not scummy, which is fair, but it doesn't actually make you town.
Well, you're the one who brought it up in the first place.
If you believe it is a null tell then you only have yourself to blame for a conversation you apparently intended to go nowhere.
3. nah
4. I'm saying you approached her like you approached me [in game 1]. And seeing as that's the case, it was how I caught you [in game 1] so I'm going to use it as proof you're scum [in this game].
5. Well I've explained my scumThor read above; as for the rest, Vi didn't answer my question early on, her response to Cyan's vote was poor, and I'm completely uncompelled by what I've seen from her play so far. Additionally, Cyan's a crafty scum; he could probably sense a Vi wagon was going to develop and jumped on before it seemed like there was blood in the water to avert suspicion (it's what I would do), and something about him feels off so far in this game. I've been duped by scumCyan before (Redux 2, though the town ultimately won that when ZDS, AE, and I lynched Cyan at endgame) and I'm not eager to have that performance repeat itself [in regards to my read on Cyan].
How do you think he sensed a Vi wagon would start?
[QUOTE=Vierni]Also, let's all take a moment to appreciate how flimsy Iso's reasoning for calling me scum is. I didn't explain why I didn't lay a nonsense vote on page 1
And you don't think that's scummy?
Wait. Is part of your reasoning for finding Vi scum because he didn't rvs vote? Because if that's the case why don't you find kami or nacho scummy for posting in rvs and not voting right away?
3. nah
4. I'm saying you approached her like you approached me [in game 1]. And seeing as that's the case, it was how I caught you [in game 1] so I'm going to use it as proof you're scum [in this game].
5. Well I've explained my scumThor read above; as for the rest, Vi didn't answer my question early on, her response to Cyan's vote was poor, and I'm completely uncompelled by what I've seen from her play so far. Additionally, Cyan's a crafty scum; he could probably sense a Vi wagon was going to develop and jumped on before it seemed like there was blood in the water to avert suspicion (it's what I would do), and something about him feels off so far in this game. I've been duped by scumCyan before (Redux 2, though the town ultimately won that when ZDS, AE, and I lynched Cyan at endgame) and I'm not eager to have that performance repeat itself [in regards to my read on Cyan].
How do you think he sensed a Vi wagon would start?
He doesn't. Nor does he have a valid reason for thinking I'm scum, he's just playing the typical scum card of 'pump up a person's ego'. Because basically no one is ever going to respond with 'you're lying I suck at being scum'. Well, no one worth acknowledging anyway. This line of 'thought' is the ultimate scum trap, because a townie has no really effective way of arguing against it.
Iso is likely scum here, and is just bussing Vierni. Actually, he's probably scum regardless of Vierni's alignment, but I like the Vierni wagon alot and want to see it to the conclusion.
In the first game, KoL was the Doc, and just acted scummy(in a nonchalant way, not like Vierni in this game) all day long until he was ultimately forced to claim.
I've found that, in general, people tend to play much looser when they know that they can't actually get lynched(because of a role like Doc, etc).
Maybe this is a personal viewpoint or a playstyle thing. For instance, I think I tend to not be as loose when I'm a pr because I'm looking at things through several layers, but then I don't really have a tendency to be suspected much when I'm town so I don't have that level of unease no matter the role or lack thereof. What I know of Kami, she doesn't either, in that I think she's hard to mislynch regardless and don't think whether she's roled or not dictates how she plays.
I don't have a ton of time here - was dead tired yesterday, which is why I'm posting when I usually don't today - so I'm not going to quote everything.
(You can stop cheering in the background now, you ponces.)
"Why choose to accuse all of your scumreads at the same time?"
Because I like solving the game on Day 1.
And duh? Like I said, busing early worked splendidly for DYH in round 1 - I see no reason the scum wouldn't immediately try to distance in this game as a result. After all, Cyan was the only one paranoid enough to call out DYH in the endgame, and he's scum in this game.
Except none of that happened. DYH distanced unilaterally, and it still didn't save him from suspicion - only Voxx's unyielding faith in his PR saved him. I recall DYH's 'bussing' doing exactly nothing last game, in fact.
@Vierni
Sadly, this is pretty much exactly what Iso is usually like.
...in fact, it's still milder than how he gets in usual MtGS games.
I'm not comfortable with this kind of response, because that's pretty much most of what you were doing last game. Pushing the onus of 'having a point' onto the people accusing you, and thus avoiding actually giving any kind of response.
I always gave a response, and, yes, I wanted to know what their point was. How terribly scummy of me to seek motivation...?
See, I seek motivation too. I also, however, generally actually answer the questions, which helps prove that I'm town. That latter bit is rather lacking from many of your posts.
...you know, it's rather strange. Strange that, as far as the bolded line of questioning goes, you didn't make the obvious retort - that you and DYH weren't 'bussing each other' last game, because you had no idea that DYH was scum, and DYH knew you had no idea he was scum. So his whole simile is flawed. But... you don't make that exceedingly obvious response.
Yeah, I didn't.
Probably because it wasn't addressing what was being said.
Whether or not I knew, doesn't change that DYH did know and also that it did work. Therefore it is a scum strategy that does seem to work.
The more relevant dismissal would have been "scum didn't win because of that bus, we won due to town deciding to sheep a PR and turn off scumhunting"
But that's not even what the question was about.
See above. It didn't work in the slightest - other events superseded it, and said events happened because he was being suspected anyway.
Point is - Iso's using exceedingly and obviously bad logic there. And given that you previously thought him 'questionable', I would have thought you'd be jumping straight on that instead of throwing dissembling questions at him.
All of those were different situations.
Look at the time of the game, the reason for their vote, and the amount of time spent on the secondary suspect.
If you still think all of them look identical let me know.
Considering Iso's vote was an obvious RVS vote, I do happen to think they all look pretty identical.
So you're saying I intentionally did something that I did as scum so as to make the games look the same to look town and therefore I look scum?
I'm still looking for the logic of how it is a scumtell.
...you know, people don't always do things intentionally.
@DYH
Fair enough on Cyan.
...what are your reads right now, though? That appear to be so different from mine and Iso's. (Which, I note, are pretty different from each other as well.)
It seems odd that you'd choose this to pick at - that line of logic doesn't really address the point. It's oblique at best.
Say Iso concedes the point - it's not analogous to the situation in the previous game. The whole point about them appearing to be busing still exists. That retort means nothing.
I see from one of your replies to Thor that this was actually directed at me, at which point I will say... what are you on about?
1. That was addressed to Thor. It was meant to be a question about how Iso was in fact using utter krap logick to justify that read, yet Thor doesn't make the (more than one) obvious response or immediately call Iso out on said krap logick, but instead just makes a dissembling reply.
2. Iso hasn't even quantified why they all 'appear to be bussing'. Vanish that one krap logick reason and Iso's entire bussing accusation becomes a naked assertion with neither rhyme nor reason, especially with the way Thor's been going at Vierni. This doesn't reflect well on Iso. My one reservation is that this is the same person that somehow came up with Cyan and DYH both as scum on day 1 of the previous game based on them attacking each other, so it's not like he's incapable of such krap logick as town.
3. And actually... what in the world was the point of this whole aside again? What were you hoping to gain from asking that question, anyway?
Vierni coasted all last game with terrible reads, LOLwagons, witticisms, and a lackadaisical approach. The scum never felt threatened by Vierni and she survived to LYLO.
Point of order - compared to the rest of the town, her reads weren't half bad. She more or less caused Fate to be lynched day 1. And she survived to LyLo largely because LyLo was accelerated artificially thanks to llamarble and every nightkill but the winning kill was a power role.
This whole assertion, in fact, sounds very revisionist. Mm.
As for the rest of your profiling, I can see that possibly being the case. I can, however, also just as equally see disheartened town making the same kind of posts. I'll grant you have more experience with Vierni than I do, but that's far from convincing.
@llamarble
I'm not enthused. Literally the only person on your list that I have any kind of scum read on is Iso.
And what in the world is making you think Tammy is scum, anyway?
(I refuse to STFU, BTW.)
@Tammy
...although that does remind me of one thing. You asked me a question about those three quotes I outlined. I don't see you having any kind of reaction to my response. Why is that?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
No, I was saying he was more interactive last game. He was convinced iso was scum at the start, but he kept scumhunting and interacting elsewhere. I remember one post where he commented on something and named three people and said something like "you're all just competing for my vote" whereas here he's just like "I found vierni, I don't need to do anything else." That's what's bothering me.
One of the MtGSers (I forget who...and the iso feature here sucks) though commented that this game looked more like normal Cyan.
And though i wouldn't want to swear it was about Cyan (call me >50% on this) I know one of the town players from MtGS was torn down for not playing like he normally did in the last game.
If you're going to do research on him, why is one game enough to start making value calls about his play? And if it bothers you, why wouldn't you check, say, a second or third game to get a better understanding of what is 'norm' for him?
So, I'm just coming to this cold again and it's still stupid the second time around. I get that you like to do this argue for the sake of arguing sometimes, but this is really ridiculous and stretching.
I'll break this down for you and show you why this is a stupid line of questioning and how you are imposing something on me which I never claimed to do. I would trust that you'll see how stupid this is and drop it, but I'm guessing what you'll really do is want the last word so color this the last response you'll get from me on the subject.
I never once claimed to do research on Cyan. I pointed this out yesterday. I *did* read through the last pages of the final day after Cyan pointed out for why he suspected Vi's reach out as suspect considering the way the last game went down to get a feel for his viewpoint. I then *did* read the first few pages of the game to see how you all interacted early day one of the last game to get a sense of what you all should expect from one another. And to see if Kami did make that bussing without justification type posting to see what type of expectation Cyan should have for Kami. I didn't read all of the last game as a spectator. I started reading around page 10 or so and was spoiled soon after. And incidentally what I *did* remember and stated in the spectator thread was liking Cyan's play.
I *did not* read the first few pages of the game because I wanted to see how Cyan played. Noting that his interactions seemed to be different was completely tangential to my original purpose. It's something that arose independently of what I was looking for. And yes, it was something that struck me as odd, something to take note of, something that *pinged* me.
So when Nacho was writing Cyan off as town based on what looked to me as flimsy reasoning, I asked him about it and pointed out that, from what I know, the only experience he was with Cyan was different. This I did to help round out my read on Nacho AND my read on Cyan. And yes, someone did point out that this actually is more typical for Cyan than that previous game, but part of the issue that you're going ohnoyoudin't about was me clarifying to Nacho that he misunderstood my original point. Whether or not that came after someone else had already pointed out that his meta is normally different does not change the fact that Nacho misunderstood me and I was clarifying the meaning.
Furthermore, I don't need to do extensive meta reasoning to start a conversation here in order to get a better read on someone. I find interacting with people is far more helpful for me getting reads than doing a bunch of meta research, especially when that person is not being wagoned, and especially when I'm trying to work out my read on them.
You would probably notice that I do meta research as necessary considering that's what I did do with Vi in looking through several games to see if he reaches out as scum and town. He has a wagon on him. He's being accused of doing a reach out thing as scum and it has no town motivation. So, metaing him on that issue was pertinent.
Reading through games to see how tunnely Cyan tends to be in the beginning of the game is pretty damn pointless when a) I didn't overly suspect him in the first place; b) I am not trying to push a case on him or defend him from one, and c) there's not a wagon on him I'm trying to see is valid based on accusations.
The day I actually use one game of meta to give a read on someone, and not just point out something that I liked or that bothered me in a means of getting a read on someone, is the day that it will be valid to tell me I should be going the "extra mile". (and considering every single time I've used one game of meta to give a read on someone I've pointed out that it's just one game and is not completely valid, I'll have beaten you to it anyway.) But, why is it bothering you that I haven't gone an extra mile to do extra meta research when I'm plainly and obviously barely keeping up with the game as it is.
Isn't me keeping up with this game just a little more important than me doing meta research for something that just bothered me and that I brought up for interaction and gaining reads purposes anyway? <------rhetorical by the way.
...although that does remind me of one thing. You asked me a question about those three quotes I outlined. I don't see you having any kind of reaction to my response. Why is that?
I'm just getting caught up tonight. i sometimes don't respond to things in order.
Thor currently feels like he's doing his damndest to make me lynch him which makes me uncomfortable on that wagon for now; I feel he has a better working knowledge of how to handle me as scum than he's displaying now. I don't like how Cyan is watching the Vi/Thor bit unravel, and I don't like how he's egging Thor on to keep attacking Vi; it reminds me of Thor's behavior towards me when I started attacking Iso last game.
I'm feeling pretty good about Cyan being town. What am I missing?
3. nah
4. I'm saying you approached her like you approached me [in game 1]. And seeing as that's the case, it was how I caught you [in game 1] so I'm going to use it as proof you're scum [in this game].
5. Well I've explained my scumThor read above; as for the rest, Vi didn't answer my question early on, her response to Cyan's vote was poor, and I'm completely uncompelled by what I've seen from her play so far. Additionally, Cyan's a crafty scum; he could probably sense a Vi wagon was going to develop and jumped on before it seemed like there was blood in the water to avert suspicion (it's what I would do), and something about him feels off so far in this game. I've been duped by scumCyan before (Redux 2, though the town ultimately won that when ZDS, AE, and I lynched Cyan at endgame) and I'm not eager to have that performance repeat itself [in regards to my read on Cyan].
How do you think he sensed a Vi wagon would start?
He doesn't. Nor does he have a valid reason for thinking I'm scum, he's just playing the typical scum card of 'pump up a person's ego'. Because basically no one is ever going to respond with 'you're lying I suck at being scum'. Well, no one worth acknowledging anyway. This line of 'thought' is the ultimate scum trap, because a townie has no really effective way of arguing against it.
Iso is likely scum here, and is just bussing Vierni. Actually, he's probably scum regardless of Vierni's alignment, but I like the Vierni wagon alot and want to see it to the conclusion.
I, admittedly, suck as scum >_>
What do you think of his opening post? Is the "here's the scum team...you're welcome!" typical for Iso?
3. nah
4. I'm saying you approached her like you approached me [in game 1]. And seeing as that's the case, it was how I caught you [in game 1] so I'm going to use it as proof you're scum [in this game].
5. Well I've explained my scumThor read above; as for the rest, Vi didn't answer my question early on, her response to Cyan's vote was poor, and I'm completely uncompelled by what I've seen from her play so far. Additionally, Cyan's a crafty scum; he could probably sense a Vi wagon was going to develop and jumped on before it seemed like there was blood in the water to avert suspicion (it's what I would do), and something about him feels off so far in this game. I've been duped by scumCyan before (Redux 2, though the town ultimately won that when ZDS, AE, and I lynched Cyan at endgame) and I'm not eager to have that performance repeat itself [in regards to my read on Cyan].
How do you think he sensed a Vi wagon would start?
He doesn't. Nor does he have a valid reason for thinking I'm scum, he's just playing the typical scum card of 'pump up a person's ego'. Because basically no one is ever going to respond with 'you're lying I suck at being scum'. Well, no one worth acknowledging anyway. This line of 'thought' is the ultimate scum trap, because a townie has no really effective way of arguing against it.
Iso is likely scum here, and is just bussing Vierni. Actually, he's probably scum regardless of Vierni's alignment, but I like the Vierni wagon alot and want to see it to the conclusion.
I, admittedly, suck as scum >_>
What do you think of his opening post? Is the "here's the scum team...you're welcome!" typical for Iso?
The context of someone just admitting that they suck as scum is different than being expected to counter someone else saying 'You're a good scum player!'
And yeah, 'here is the scum team' is typical of Iso regardless of alignment. The # of posts that he has in this game is much lower than I would normally expect from him as town, but, I'm not sure how much of a point against him that is.
I have no idea what you're trying to say in the last portion of that post.
And my response says enough. It's telling you that I think Vi's response to being voted sounded town to me. Sometimes things feel like town post just as sometimes they feel like a scum post. If you disagree feel free to tell me why you disagree. Clearly you feel like everyone should have reasons for why they do or don't like it and if you did like it you wouldn't be asking me about it because it would resonate with you. So, why did you take issue with it?
Even if I did like it, I'd be asking you about it.
I don't like it because it's an odd reaction to be having to someone she just offered to work with.
My primary point with that last section was that I am offering my opinions by questioning things, which you even noted. On that note, specify where I am not offering my opinions or interacting, as you stated earlier.
It seems odd that you'd choose this to pick at - that line of logic doesn't really address the point. It's oblique at best.
Say Iso concedes the point - it's not analogous to the situation in the previous game. The whole point about them appearing to be busing still exists. That retort means nothing.
I see from one of your replies to Thor that this was actually directed at me, at which point I will say... what are you on about?
1. That was addressed to Thor. It was meant to be a question about how Iso was in fact using utter krap logick to justify that read, yet Thor doesn't make the (more than one) obvious response or immediately call Iso out on said krap logick, but instead just makes a dissembling reply.
2. Iso hasn't even quantified why they all 'appear to be bussing'. Vanish that one krap logick reason and Iso's entire bussing accusation becomes a naked assertion with neither rhyme nor reason, especially with the way Thor's been going at Vierni. This doesn't reflect well on Iso. My one reservation is that this is the same person that somehow came up with Cyan and DYH both as scum on day 1 of the previous game based on them attacking each other, so it's not like he's incapable of such krap logick as town.
3. And actually... what in the world was the point of this whole aside again? What were you hoping to gain from asking that question, anyway?
What?
Any analysis says that had nothing to do with Iso's reason for saying they're busing. Paraphrasing, it says something to the effect of "I think you're busing (face it, it worked well for DYH), and I think you're all scum."
You're completely ignoring the part where he says he's reading them all as scum, and I'd like to know why.
The general circumstances are similar, but the specifics I'm not so sure about.
Well, yeah, firetrucks, apples, and cherries are all red, but it doesn't make them all fruit. A general similarity is utterly meaningless unless you can explain why they are similar enough to be relatable to the point.
Cutting the intervening text, we have:
- you said you were encouraging pressure on Iso because he had a vote on DYH while pressuring someone else
- you voted someone else while encouraging pressure on Iso
- dC voted Voxxicus while largely questioning you and Vierni (or, if you prefer, encouraged pressure on you and Vierni)
That's similar enough to warrant the question, and I'd like to know why you're dodging it so much. Answering the question would have taken far less effort by this point.
@Cyouni:
In re: roundabout language - See "no more than one".
In re: all game - I misjudged Cyan based on his endgame play.
As for Nacho, in the rare instances that I've been able to work with him (the rarity being particularly bothersome considering the number of games I've played with him) it has worked out very well.
It's still oddly roundabout - why not something to the effect of "Cyan's the only one that's correct"? Why go so far to avoid using his name in connection with it?
In re: Cyan and Nacho - Fine.
On a slightly different note: Specify why Thor's first two (three?) posts were scummy enough to make you abandon discussion with him and vote him.
@desCoures - why have you not weighed in on the Vi question when that is fairly painfully the obvious and major wagon? You weigh in on *so much* in that post...but say so little about your actual opinions. I am not a fan of it.
Read.
On Vi.
Go!
@Tammy - as a flip, why are you so stressed about me asking you why you didn't go the extra mile? I didn't even phrase it as an attack and you're leaping down my throat about it. You feel very on edge - do you think you have that vibe, or do you think I'm crazy?
@Tammy - as a flip, why are you so stressed about me asking you why you didn't go the extra mile? I didn't even phrase it as an attack and you're leaping down my throat about it. You feel very on edge - do you think you have that vibe, or do you think I'm crazy?
It felt like an attack for something I felt was very natural for me.
(I will admit to being just a bit on edge at the moment. A healthy dose of job stress that has been building over several weeks and homesickness have my already low patience and easily annoyed threshold operating at a higher level than normal as such my buttons are super easy to push right now.)
I find Llama's dancing worse than Iso's belligerence - that feels similar to last game to me.
I'm torn on desCourse...didn't he get strung up for being a fencesitting pile in people's opinions last game? He's certainly doing that here, but my personal perception was that he was way more dynamic and actually digging at stuff. Here he just feels like he's batting at stuff like a cat.
Meh.
I think I agree with you on Llama being an issue, I slightly disagree on desCoures, and I rather disagree on Iso.
@Tammy - I'd like you to just address DGB's post and my above response to it, and toss out your thoughts on the same.
I'm more upset that she's considering an easy awesome Town bloc and I'm not in it.
Actually I'm acting out on fermented frustration over how she voted me instead of scum in our last game together because god-knows-why since I was clearly Town and the scum in question was CES not being clearly Town (moving "clearly" two words forward could be debated).
I think you're overstating how much of this is strategic vs. petty personal issues.
Also even if I did have confidence in her ability to read me I still wouldn't vote her for that post. This really hasn't been a good faking-Town game for you so far.
@Cyan: What would you say that KoL is doing differently this game than what she did last game?
All of the above deserve a raised eyebrow. Albeit especially the bolded.
Why did those responses raise your eyebrow? I especially would like to know why the first one was problematic, as I'm not in agreement with DGB that Vi looks comfortable at all. He's responding to me about something in the last game we played together where I *did* have a hard time reading him and it should have been more obvious about it than it was and I should have relied more on my gut for which of the pair was actually scum.
Why does DYH's question bother you? It seems a relevant observation and is going to try to figure out where Cyan's head is at right now.
To whit:
The first quote: sounded like a pre-emptive excuse and/or justification.
The second quote: the bolded sounded way too sure. It's an issue I also have with Cyan at the moment - both seemed entirely too sure of someone else's alignment very early in the day.
The third quote: two reasons. The first being that it was, effectively, a leading question. Leading the Cyan/KoL dynamic onto a different track. The second reason being that it felt odd that DYH's thought process would immediately lead into last game, instead of first questioning Cyan about his reasoning process this game. DYH's later post implies he was in fact looking for a particular kind of response, ameliorating that somewhat, but not totally, especially since he hasn't posted since then.
-------------------
I don't like Thor's justifications and current pattern of roundabout non-responses. Vierni looks okay to me at the moment. Not fond of Iso or Cyan. And Nacho should be town.
(Aside @Nacho: Cyouni's posts aren't great at the moment. However, I've come to realize that he always looks bad early game. Reading him is much easier around late day 1/early day 2.)
I guess the first post I take as a form of ribbing. He could have mentioned the time in skype mafia where i lynched him when he was the doctor who protected me from a nightkill because I got paranoid he was scum who nokilled to get me to town read him, too, and I would have got the joke. I also once caught him as scum (though I was mostly sure because of his hydra partner) I struggle to find anyone who has ever played with me to use this type of thing as a justification or a reasoning to get me to doubt my read on them. Anyone who has every played with me knows that I have a tendency to paranoia, and Nacho is probably the only person here who knows how to deal with that. So for me is just seemed like a joke and not something designed for some nefarious purpose.
The second one isn't anything unusual for what I've seen of Vi in the early game. (I don't think I've ever seen him live past day two, but I've seen him unquestionably push wagons day one) And I guess, what bothered me about this was that Cyan was also demonstrating that same level of certainty of Vi!scum.
I don't get your reasoning on the third point. I thought it made a lot of sense for DYH to ask Cyan about his expectations on Kami based on their experience in the last game. If he had never seen Kami play, he might not know that a good portion of her game is based on gaining reactions, but he has played with her before and has seen her make similar posts, so it shouldn't come as a surprise. To me it looked like DYH was trying to figure out Cyan's thought process on the matter, which could have developed into a conversation about his reactions in this game.
I find Llama's dancing worse than Iso's belligerence - that feels similar to last game to me.
I'm torn on desCourse...didn't he get strung up for being a fencesitting pile in people's opinions last game? He's certainly doing that here, but my personal perception was that he was way more dynamic and actually digging at stuff. Here he just feels like he's batting at stuff like a cat.
Meh.
I think I agree with you on Llama being an issue, I slightly disagree on desCoures, and I rather disagree on Iso.
@Tammy - I'd like you to just address DGB's post and my above response to it, and toss out your thoughts on the same.
Llamarble currently resides in mehsville. He has about a 3/10 on the adorable scale, which doesn't bode well for him.
I actually liked descoures a bit and think the accusations you're lobbing at him could just as easily be thrust against cyouni.
Iso is kinda meh; I hated his opening post but cyan said that's his typical opening, so we'll see.
Iso as a fourth option if one of those is incorrect.
Discuss.
(Spoiler: I've only skimmed the thread and am going 100% off of gut, wanted to get at least vaguely caught up so new posts made sense to me, before reading through in depth)
I find Llama's dancing worse than Iso's belligerence - that feels similar to last game to me.
I'm torn on desCourse...didn't he get strung up for being a fencesitting pile in people's opinions last game? He's certainly doing that here, but my personal perception was that he was way more dynamic and actually digging at stuff. Here he just feels like he's batting at stuff like a cat.
Meh.
I think I agree with you on Llama being an issue, I slightly disagree on desCoures, and I rather disagree on Iso.
@Tammy - I'd like you to just address DGB's post and my above response to it, and toss out your thoughts on the same.
Llamarble currently resides in mehsville. He has about a 3/10 on the adorable scale, which doesn't bode well for him.
I actually liked descoures a bit and think the accusations you're lobbing at him could just as easily be thrust against cyouni.
Iso is kinda meh; I hated his opening post but cyan said that's his typical opening, so we'll see.
Ah, to clarify something. It is a typical post for Iso to make, even a somewhat typical Day 1 post, but not necessarily so early in day 1.
Actually I'm acting out on fermented frustration over how she voted me instead of scum in our last game together because god-knows-why since I was clearly Town [...].
This sounds like a cautionary tale designed to make her feel bad calling you scum.
I'm actually so sold on Vi scum right now that even though I asked Kami to step it up, my initial reaction on seeing her last post was to want to post an even more amped up one about Vi simply to help ensure that I got 'starting the wagon' points.
Then I remembered that I hated the scoring system and I shouldn't let it affect me.
But that's how strongly I feel about Viscum right now.
I don't think Kami's analysis of Vi is correct at all. I realize desCoures has already touched on this, somewhat, but as someone who was scum last game - even if I didn't control the kill until Thor had died - I didn't feel that way about her at all. I tried to put some doubt in the other townies about her, but the way she strode into the last day made it very clear that route was going nowhere. Vierni didn't get killed because there were other pressing matters like a doc, a vig, and a gunsmith. It's incredibly disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Those were the only three scum kills. Had I been forced to kill someone Night 4, it would have very obviously been Vierni.
So, my read on KoL has flipped in one post - and by extension, my read on Vierni - who I was previously leaning over the scum side of the fence towards.
I will clarify that I don't agree with the 'fear of Vi' concept of DGB's case.
That said - as someone who was scum I didn't have fear of Vi last game. I'm not sure why scum fear or lack of fear really matters to making or not making Vi look scummy, but I'm equally unsure why you disagreeing with that aspect of DGB's case makes Vi look townish and DGB scummy. It is hardly a lolwtf opinion to walk out of the game with.
I will clarify that I don't agree with the 'fear of Vi' concept of DGB's case.
That part of the case was to emphasize her lackadaisical attitude. It's 1% of the case, and it was my perception, and I was town so, take it as you will.
It's not the case.
DYH is actually ignoring the case. Or reading Vi himself and making up his own mind about Vi independently of anything I have to say about it.
I will clarify that I don't agree with the 'fear of Vi' concept of DGB's case.
That part of the case was to emphasize her lackadaisical attitude. It's 1% of the case, and it was my perception, and I was town so, take it as you will.
It's not the case.
I understand that, it's one of the reasons I pointed out that I thought it was meaningless to such a degree I am confused why he thought it would hinge on an alignment shift for two players.
Are you buddying me? Because I really didn't attack your case, and DYH did, and I'm the one you're sweating on selling that your case is still good even though I have my own reasons for thinking Vi is scum and have pushed that case as hard as anyone. So this defense seems...odd.
I don't get what this bit has to do with anything.
It means that I was wrong about you.
This makes absolutely no sense.
I would have figured this to be the case immediately after you mentioned your scum triumvirate.
No, he's saying that it's a scummy statement that might be part of your scum meta.
This might just be the towniest thing you've said all game, although still completely wrong.
You never interacted, confronted, or reached out with me in the chosen mafia game. You had a lot of "hey nacho what do you think of mastin, hey nacho what do you think of mastin, hey nacho what do you think of mastin" which was empty and baseless, and then a smidgeon of "omfg mastin is so scum why aren't you listening to me???" (even though you know damn well I know when I'm reading mastin like a book), you attacked me for not explaining a read (what?), then townread me when I told you to. Then you got all excited about calling me town, asked me what I thought of mastin AGAIN, then asked me what I thought of bert. Your interactions with me that game were empty, cold, and easy; the selling point of your scumgame was the "I'm totally obvtown bit" and reactions to me when I started to get paranoid of you. Here, your reactions towards me were NOT "nacho what do you think of Cyan", they were "hey nacho you better town it up and get passionate on you or I'll spazz out on your ass and get you lynched" and "everybody trust my read on Nacho because I think I can read him" and "Nacho why are you letting Cyan off the hook so easily for such horse**** reasoning". The level of complexity of these interactions compared to those interactions are too much improvement in literally one game. I'll also note you never asked me to explain my read on you in that game, probably because you knew if you forced me to reread your slot I would get a little more uneasy with you.
I didn't end up following your vote because I learned last game that Cyouni votes are sort of easy, but they're not always good. I wanted the first vote that I put down to feel good.
Vote: Cyan
Thor currently feels like he's doing his damndest to make me lynch him which makes me uncomfortable on that wagon for now; I feel he has a better working knowledge of how to handle me as scum than he's displaying now. I don't like how Cyan is watching the Vi/Thor bit unravel, and I don't like how he's egging Thor on to keep attacking Vi; it reminds me of Thor's behavior towards me when I started attacking Iso last game.
Except that isn't what she said when she first brought it up.
She is saying here that the purpose of the interaction was based on taking a shot on me being surprisingly well-spoken.
Her initial interaction was a really awkward attack off calling a reach in RVS scummy.
It doesn't add up.
Do you still think it does? What am I missing here?
Except it does.
You are acting wierded out by my push because it is a lose/lose. You type out that the 'lose' is that she was, functionally, town reading me based on bad logic.
You are correct, this is a lose/lose for scum to mess with because scumThor would be like, yay!
However, it is a win for town to mess with - because townThor wants to figure out DGB's alignment, and if she's scum buddying me then I don't care if she loses her town read of me, because she's scum.
Therefore, you identified that what I did had town motivation, and lacked scum motivation, and then you called bogus on it.
Keep clarifying here please.
Except his logic for it being scummy is that he saw me do it as scum. My position holds.
I sense dark, sad squirming in her posts.
Vierni coasted all last game with terrible reads, LOLwagons, witticisms, and a lackadaisical approach. The scum never felt threatened by Vierni and she survived to LYLO.
This game, she gets wagon'ed early.
It's difficult to quantify "sadness" and "discomfort", let alone use it to
determine alignment.
But here is what I see as a response to the wagon:
"For what my unheeded words are worth"
"I freely admit to being totally confused"
"I'm basically just answering whatever I think it is you're asking because I don't feel compelled not to."
"Being able to get through to you was a hope that I forewent"
"I will concede that the #1 scumtell I commit as scum is claiming scum."
"it didn't end well either time."
"jilted-lover tingles"
"I'm being slightly more of a jerk this time around for entirely warranted reasons."
"I do better when I have someone to work with - a sounding board, if you will. People generally don't do that because they're damn jerks."
"I'm confused that you've locked yourself into a tunnel."
"...even when I try to be nice I still manage to insult people on a personal level."
"I don't have a lot worth saying that hasn't already been said"
That's for the emotional content.
More to the point is what I don't see. I don't see outrage. I don't see revolt. I don't see scumhunting. I don't see "oh crap I am unfairly wagoned, I'm going to show these idiots that they are wrong!" "I am going to get accurate reads right now so that I can avenge my reputation in the dead QT!"
Nothing makes one more aware of the game dynamics than being wagoned themselves. Vierni is still oblivious.
I think Vierni rolled scum and was looking forward to dazzling us all with her scum game. And now she's sad, because it doesn't look so good anymore. EvilThor is caught her instead of being fooled by her, Brainless Goofball caught her... that worthless Iso that got wagoned and vig'ed early last game... how humiliating.
She's given up inside, she's trying to keep a brave front. But I see through it.
I mean, I can't really do much when 80% of the people actively posting are going to find anything I say scummy without thought (see "The Fox News of Mafia"), and while I feel a moral obligation to let youse know that the only thing worse than your reads is your logic in the most eloquently insulting way possible, it's not going to help things. I'm pretty unequivocally Town ITT and the people who have a demonstrated capacity for reading me have called me Town and aren't backing down from it, so it sounds like the problem is with you.
(Also, I kind of liked Iso's style, as mentioned before. :/ )
And apparently you can't naked quote - so here.
This is wrong in about a dozen very obvious ways, LOL.
You went from getting paranoid of someone when they said "let's work together" to hi fiving Thor every time he advances a case on the person you're pushing.
You are currently claiming there is zero scum motivation for you to question a townread on yourself, which is actually not accurate at all. It's not scummy, which is fair, but it doesn't actually make you town.
Well, you're the one who brought it up in the first place.
If you believe it is a null tell then you only have yourself to blame for a conversation you apparently intended to go nowhere.
Yes, I have noticed that when you're town you push as many mislynches as you do when scum
How do you think he sensed a Vi wagon would start?
Wait. Is part of your reasoning for finding Vi scum because he didn't rvs vote? Because if that's the case why don't you find kami or nacho scummy for posting in rvs and not voting right away?
He doesn't. Nor does he have a valid reason for thinking I'm scum, he's just playing the typical scum card of 'pump up a person's ego'. Because basically no one is ever going to respond with 'you're lying I suck at being scum'. Well, no one worth acknowledging anyway. This line of 'thought' is the ultimate scum trap, because a townie has no really effective way of arguing against it.
Iso is likely scum here, and is just bussing Vierni. Actually, he's probably scum regardless of Vierni's alignment, but I like the Vierni wagon alot and want to see it to the conclusion.
What did I do to get a town read from you?
Maybe this is a personal viewpoint or a playstyle thing. For instance, I think I tend to not be as loose when I'm a pr because I'm looking at things through several layers, but then I don't really have a tendency to be suspected much when I'm town so I don't have that level of unease no matter the role or lack thereof. What I know of Kami, she doesn't either, in that I think she's hard to mislynch regardless and don't think whether she's roled or not dictates how she plays.
(You can stop cheering in the background now, you ponces.)
------------------------------
@Iso
Except none of that happened. DYH distanced unilaterally, and it still didn't save him from suspicion - only Voxx's unyielding faith in his PR saved him. I recall DYH's 'bussing' doing exactly nothing last game, in fact.
@Vierni
Sadly, this is pretty much exactly what Iso is usually like.
...in fact, it's still milder than how he gets in usual MtGS games.
...still not as bad as his brother, though.
@Thor665
See, I seek motivation too. I also, however, generally actually answer the questions, which helps prove that I'm town. That latter bit is rather lacking from many of your posts.
See above. It didn't work in the slightest - other events superseded it, and said events happened because he was being suspected anyway.
Point is - Iso's using exceedingly and obviously bad logic there. And given that you previously thought him 'questionable', I would have thought you'd be jumping straight on that instead of throwing dissembling questions at him.
Considering Iso's vote was an obvious RVS vote, I do happen to think they all look pretty identical.
...you know, people don't always do things intentionally.
@DYH
Fair enough on Cyan.
...what are your reads right now, though? That appear to be so different from mine and Iso's. (Which, I note, are pretty different from each other as well.)
@Cyouni
I see from one of your replies to Thor that this was actually directed at me, at which point I will say... what are you on about?
1. That was addressed to Thor. It was meant to be a question about how Iso was in fact using utter krap logick to justify that read, yet Thor doesn't make the (more than one) obvious response or immediately call Iso out on said krap logick, but instead just makes a dissembling reply.
2. Iso hasn't even quantified why they all 'appear to be bussing'. Vanish that one krap logick reason and Iso's entire bussing accusation becomes a naked assertion with neither rhyme nor reason, especially with the way Thor's been going at Vierni. This doesn't reflect well on Iso. My one reservation is that this is the same person that somehow came up with Cyan and DYH both as scum on day 1 of the previous game based on them attacking each other, so it's not like he's incapable of such krap logick as town.
3. And actually... what in the world was the point of this whole aside again? What were you hoping to gain from asking that question, anyway?
@KoL
Point of order - compared to the rest of the town, her reads weren't half bad. She more or less caused Fate to be lynched day 1. And she survived to LyLo largely because LyLo was accelerated artificially thanks to llamarble and every nightkill but the winning kill was a power role.
This whole assertion, in fact, sounds very revisionist. Mm.
As for the rest of your profiling, I can see that possibly being the case. I can, however, also just as equally see disheartened town making the same kind of posts. I'll grant you have more experience with Vierni than I do, but that's far from convincing.
@llamarble
I'm not enthused. Literally the only person on your list that I have any kind of scum read on is Iso.
And what in the world is making you think Tammy is scum, anyway?
(I refuse to STFU, BTW.)
@Tammy
...although that does remind me of one thing. You asked me a question about those three quotes I outlined. I don't see you having any kind of reaction to my response. Why is that?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
So, I'm just coming to this cold again and it's still stupid the second time around. I get that you like to do this argue for the sake of arguing sometimes, but this is really ridiculous and stretching.
I'll break this down for you and show you why this is a stupid line of questioning and how you are imposing something on me which I never claimed to do. I would trust that you'll see how stupid this is and drop it, but I'm guessing what you'll really do is want the last word so color this the last response you'll get from me on the subject.
I never once claimed to do research on Cyan. I pointed this out yesterday. I *did* read through the last pages of the final day after Cyan pointed out for why he suspected Vi's reach out as suspect considering the way the last game went down to get a feel for his viewpoint. I then *did* read the first few pages of the game to see how you all interacted early day one of the last game to get a sense of what you all should expect from one another. And to see if Kami did make that bussing without justification type posting to see what type of expectation Cyan should have for Kami. I didn't read all of the last game as a spectator. I started reading around page 10 or so and was spoiled soon after. And incidentally what I *did* remember and stated in the spectator thread was liking Cyan's play.
I *did not* read the first few pages of the game because I wanted to see how Cyan played. Noting that his interactions seemed to be different was completely tangential to my original purpose. It's something that arose independently of what I was looking for. And yes, it was something that struck me as odd, something to take note of, something that *pinged* me.
So when Nacho was writing Cyan off as town based on what looked to me as flimsy reasoning, I asked him about it and pointed out that, from what I know, the only experience he was with Cyan was different. This I did to help round out my read on Nacho AND my read on Cyan. And yes, someone did point out that this actually is more typical for Cyan than that previous game, but part of the issue that you're going ohnoyoudin't about was me clarifying to Nacho that he misunderstood my original point. Whether or not that came after someone else had already pointed out that his meta is normally different does not change the fact that Nacho misunderstood me and I was clarifying the meaning.
Furthermore, I don't need to do extensive meta reasoning to start a conversation here in order to get a better read on someone. I find interacting with people is far more helpful for me getting reads than doing a bunch of meta research, especially when that person is not being wagoned, and especially when I'm trying to work out my read on them.
You would probably notice that I do meta research as necessary considering that's what I did do with Vi in looking through several games to see if he reaches out as scum and town. He has a wagon on him. He's being accused of doing a reach out thing as scum and it has no town motivation. So, metaing him on that issue was pertinent.
Reading through games to see how tunnely Cyan tends to be in the beginning of the game is pretty damn pointless when a) I didn't overly suspect him in the first place; b) I am not trying to push a case on him or defend him from one, and c) there's not a wagon on him I'm trying to see is valid based on accusations.
The day I actually use one game of meta to give a read on someone, and not just point out something that I liked or that bothered me in a means of getting a read on someone, is the day that it will be valid to tell me I should be going the "extra mile". (and considering every single time I've used one game of meta to give a read on someone I've pointed out that it's just one game and is not completely valid, I'll have beaten you to it anyway.) But, why is it bothering you that I haven't gone an extra mile to do extra meta research when I'm plainly and obviously barely keeping up with the game as it is.
Isn't me keeping up with this game just a little more important than me doing meta research for something that just bothered me and that I brought up for interaction and gaining reads purposes anyway? <------rhetorical by the way.
I'm just getting caught up tonight. i sometimes don't respond to things in order.
I'm feeling pretty good about Cyan being town. What am I missing?
I, admittedly, suck as scum >_>
What do you think of his opening post? Is the "here's the scum team...you're welcome!" typical for Iso?
Is there a point somewhere in that wall post that I am missing?
The context of someone just admitting that they suck as scum is different than being expected to counter someone else saying 'You're a good scum player!'
And yeah, 'here is the scum team' is typical of Iso regardless of alignment. The # of posts that he has in this game is much lower than I would normally expect from him as town, but, I'm not sure how much of a point against him that is.
I don't like it because it's an odd reaction to be having to someone she just offered to work with.
My primary point with that last section was that I am offering my opinions by questioning things, which you even noted. On that note, specify where I am not offering my opinions or interacting, as you stated earlier.
What?
Any analysis says that had nothing to do with Iso's reason for saying they're busing. Paraphrasing, it says something to the effect of "I think you're busing (face it, it worked well for DYH), and I think you're all scum."
You're completely ignoring the part where he says he's reading them all as scum, and I'd like to know why.
Cutting the intervening text, we have:
- you said you were encouraging pressure on Iso because he had a vote on DYH while pressuring someone else
- you voted someone else while encouraging pressure on Iso
- dC voted Voxxicus while largely questioning you and Vierni (or, if you prefer, encouraged pressure on you and Vierni)
That's similar enough to warrant the question, and I'd like to know why you're dodging it so much. Answering the question would have taken far less effort by this point.
It's still oddly roundabout - why not something to the effect of "Cyan's the only one that's correct"? Why go so far to avoid using his name in connection with it?
In re: Cyan and Nacho - Fine.
On a slightly different note: Specify why Thor's first two (three?) posts were scummy enough to make you abandon discussion with him and vote him.
Read.
On Vi.
Go!
@Tammy - as a flip, why are you so stressed about me asking you why you didn't go the extra mile? I didn't even phrase it as an attack and you're leaping down my throat about it. You feel very on edge - do you think you have that vibe, or do you think I'm crazy?
It felt like an attack for something I felt was very natural for me.
(I will admit to being just a bit on edge at the moment. A healthy dose of job stress that has been building over several weeks and homesickness have my already low patience and easily annoyed threshold operating at a higher level than normal as such my buttons are super easy to push right now.)
Vi & DesCoures.
I'm torn on desCourse...didn't he get strung up for being a fencesitting pile in people's opinions last game? He's certainly doing that here, but my personal perception was that he was way more dynamic and actually digging at stuff. Here he just feels like he's batting at stuff like a cat.
Meh.
I think I agree with you on Llama being an issue, I slightly disagree on desCoures, and I rather disagree on Iso.
@Tammy - I'd like you to just address DGB's post and my above response to it, and toss out your thoughts on the same.
I guess the first post I take as a form of ribbing. He could have mentioned the time in skype mafia where i lynched him when he was the doctor who protected me from a nightkill because I got paranoid he was scum who nokilled to get me to town read him, too, and I would have got the joke. I also once caught him as scum (though I was mostly sure because of his hydra partner) I struggle to find anyone who has ever played with me to use this type of thing as a justification or a reasoning to get me to doubt my read on them. Anyone who has every played with me knows that I have a tendency to paranoia, and Nacho is probably the only person here who knows how to deal with that. So for me is just seemed like a joke and not something designed for some nefarious purpose.
The second one isn't anything unusual for what I've seen of Vi in the early game. (I don't think I've ever seen him live past day two, but I've seen him unquestionably push wagons day one) And I guess, what bothered me about this was that Cyan was also demonstrating that same level of certainty of Vi!scum.
I don't get your reasoning on the third point. I thought it made a lot of sense for DYH to ask Cyan about his expectations on Kami based on their experience in the last game. If he had never seen Kami play, he might not know that a good portion of her game is based on gaining reactions, but he has played with her before and has seen her make similar posts, so it shouldn't come as a surprise. To me it looked like DYH was trying to figure out Cyan's thought process on the matter, which could have developed into a conversation about his reactions in this game.
Llamarble currently resides in mehsville. He has about a 3/10 on the adorable scale, which doesn't bode well for him.
I actually liked descoures a bit and think the accusations you're lobbing at him could just as easily be thrust against cyouni.
Iso is kinda meh; I hated his opening post but cyan said that's his typical opening, so we'll see.
Iso as a fourth option if one of those is incorrect.
Discuss.
(Spoiler: I've only skimmed the thread and am going 100% off of gut, wanted to get at least vaguely caught up so new posts made sense to me, before reading through in depth)
Yeah, but my recollection of Cy is similar to this from last game, whereas it is not as I recall desCoures.
Ah, to clarify something. It is a typical post for Iso to make, even a somewhat typical Day 1 post, but not necessarily so early in day 1.
GAME OVER! TOWN WINS!
Let's not forget Vi's brilliantly scummy entrance in the game:
Then I remembered that I hated the scoring system and I shouldn't let it affect me.
But that's how strongly I feel about Viscum right now.
So, my read on KoL has flipped in one post - and by extension, my read on Vierni - who I was previously leaning over the scum side of the fence towards.
Vote: Kami
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
That said - as someone who was scum I didn't have fear of Vi last game. I'm not sure why scum fear or lack of fear really matters to making or not making Vi look scummy, but I'm equally unsure why you disagreeing with that aspect of DGB's case makes Vi look townish and DGB scummy. It is hardly a lolwtf opinion to walk out of the game with.
That part of the case was to emphasize her lackadaisical attitude. It's 1% of the case, and it was my perception, and I was town so, take it as you will.
It's not the case.
DYH is actually ignoring the case. Or reading Vi himself and making up his own mind about Vi independently of anything I have to say about it.
I obviously need more info to narrow down the last three.
I understand that, it's one of the reasons I pointed out that I thought it was meaningless to such a degree I am confused why he thought it would hinge on an alignment shift for two players.
Are you buddying me? Because I really didn't attack your case, and DYH did, and I'm the one you're sweating on selling that your case is still good even though I have my own reasons for thinking Vi is scum and have pushed that case as hard as anyone. So this defense seems...odd.