And I'm not calling DYH town yet, certainly not to the point I want to theorize about scumteams with that as a concept, I'm allowed to have moments of doubt during my death tunnels. I'll maybe get back to you on this if some of his site mates defend the paranoia - otherwise I'll just call it flailing and we can return to the 1v1 already in progress.
Also, I'm not even that scummy in this case.
The wagon on me is three non MS guys who apparently went 'baaaaw' Thor is aggressive and has opinions, must be scum, because our town players never do that! Also - DGB on the case of 'Thor disagrees with me that he is scum'.
Vote: Voxxicus
Will do for now. The whole him-dC interaction of him calling dC obvobvtown for reasons that never became clear followed by todays reversal while dC just kind of keeps the whole thing at arm length yesterday and then votes him today is sketchy on both sides.
Thor has also failed to become useful again despite removal of Iso
Well I suppose the reasons weren't un*clear* they just seemed meh to me (too strong a read off only a couple of posts without any evident deliberation)
@Cy - do you have an opinion about paranoia in DYH's playstyle?
I believe you can't analyse paranoia correctly (given you're getting his arguments completely wrong, and are drawing 'paranoia' from that), and therefore there's no point in answering that.
I'd also like to throw out the above exchange as a good wtf piece between our two sites.
Apparently Cyourni has decided for some period of time that I am totally misunderstanding what DYH has been saying and did...literally nothing about it till i directly asked him his opinion, and then *also* still didn't clarify and required the asking of a second question.
Don't have a ton of time right now, just trying to throw some thoughts together before I head in to work. Short day, though so I will be able to sink some time into this tonight.
Been picking through and trying to find wagons of 5+ that Fate wasn't on.
Pretty sure Nacho reached L-2 (so 5-man wagon) at some point, but it'll take some vote combing to pull that together.
It is extremely, extremely rare to have a 5-man wagon on town on D1 and zero scum be on it. I'm talking in the usual 12-man, 9/3 setups - basics/minis. You can look back through the Mentor QT in House I had with Proph where we did some research on completed games, and I talked about it more in depth.
I'd say it's almost certain that at least one of dC or Cyouni is scum. Both being scum is plausible.
There's probbbably also one scum between Vierni and Cyan. That's a little less certain than the dC/Cyouni cluster, though.
Vi's setting off an awful lot of alarms on re-read. There's just....nothing there. Empty bandwagon vote after empty bandwagon vote with nothing resembling logic, reasoning, or scumhunting.
The KoL wagon/push was Marble, Cyan and Vi - with Vi still wanting to lynch the claimed doc after the claim.
Thor is at least theoretically possible scum, given that the three people that were pushing him D1 are all town. But given his uh. Nature. I'm inclined to accept that scum just wanted no part of trying to lynch the vomit of words.
Gut scum team call is Fate/dC/Vi.
Cyan is probably the most likely scum in a vacuum, based on analysis, but I have trouble seeing him being scum with dC, after dC swaps from me to him, and I have trouble seeing Cyan/Vi being a thing.
I really liked dC's early game. It was focused, driven, and there was follow-up. I wrote him off as town due to that, but flips and claims caused me to re-evaluate, and I've reluctantly accepted that I was probably wrong.
Work time for me, I'll try to answer questions specifically and further explain my thought process this evening.
But we aren't lynching me, because I'm town, and it's a terrible lynch.
We're lynching one of Cyouni or desCoures, preferably - with Cyan or Vi being acceptable.
Cyouni - early on Fate wagon, that whole "you didn't read stuff" attack from Fate doesn't read as a bus
As Nacho pointed out, Cyouni was the hammer vote. 'Early on Fate wagon' that isn't. I think Cyouni's probably town as well, but that first one doesn't read like you're actually paying attention.
desCoures - preferred Iso lynch to Fate, interactions with Thor, KoL, Llamarble aren't good
Fair enough on llamarble. Even fair enough on Thor, considering you have him as scum. But explain what in blazes you mean by 'interactions with KoL aren't good', because once she actually started contributing I had her consistently as town.
As for the first part, I also wanted llamarble to shoot Fate when Iso looked to be the lynch, and pretty clearly said I would support a Fate lynch as well. Heck, if the wagon hadn't started and ended on a weekend (during which you know for a fact I'm almost never around, because that's been the case in every game you've ever seen me play here) I would probably have happily voted for Fate as well. Or what, you're going to claim you 'forgot it was a weekend'?
-----------------
As for Voxxicus, apparently his entire case is predicated on 'there must be 1 scum on 5-person wagons on town'. Riiight. I'm barely seeing any behavioural analysis in that whole post, except for where he claims Vierni hasn't done much of anything. Ignoring, I note, the point where Vierni was key in bringing the Fate wagon to fruition. A point I make in the several questions I pose to him and which he has totally ignored.
(Additionally, one of his '5-person wagons on town' happens to include him. What a coincidence.)
I'm additionally unenthused by the fact that he stopped by, posted well after the mod's posted votecount, and neglected to even begin to claim, despite being at L-2. You're not from MS, Voxxicus. You don't have that excuse.
Unvote: Cyan
HoS with intent to vote: Voxxicus
There's not a shred of sincerity in what you're throwing out, Voxxicus. Your posts in Redux 2 Mirror were full of behavioural insight. I'm seeing none of that here.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
The first thing I see is that you're somehow thinking that he's arguing that you arranged for everyone to die, when it's obviously more along the lines of "all the flips fit with you being scum".
Second, no, it's not about the change in your playstyle (and not anything re: snark/sarcasm, despite how much you've been shouting it), it's how you dropped aggression - "He's just going along with the flow - even saying as much, that he'd basically place a vote on anyone at one point - yet trying to convince people he's still the same ol' snarky, belligerent Thor when he's really not been."
Third, nowhere will you find that he says you arranged for both to be dead, and I'm also sure that nowhere will you find that he says that it benefits you. Not to mention, the point's that you went ahead and voted him first thing while most of your argument was still invalid.
I haven't bothered for a while since it's falling on deaf ears. Hell, the only reason you even noticed that once was because I challenged you to quote it. It's not worth the energy.
So remind me.
You were voting Vi for a pretty significant time.
You talked so much about how you thought he (?) was scum.
You claimed to have backed it up and talked about it yesterday.
Yet you obviously cannot justify any of that.
"Some half-assed read"? You just said you were talking about why you thought Vi was scum. I question you on that, and your reaction is to instantly call it "some half-assed read".
You've been calling Vi scum since post #90. Post #130, #142, #163, (sort of) #189, and (apparently) #285 all have notes of it.
Furthermore, you were voting Vi (or attempting to, at least) until you decided to vote Iso based off some "bus" theory. And you kept calling Vi scum until I called you out on your reasons.
Yet suddenly, after all that, after you went "I told you already what my reasons were", after that's all you've been doing the whole game, it's just "some half-assed read"?
No. If so, you would have said that earlier. Your answer to me wouldn't have been "I wrote it last night", it would have been something like "it was a throwaway read I made 20 pages ago". You're just completely unable to give any reason for it, and trying to wave it away with this. Vote Aggressive_Fate.
The first thing I see is that you're somehow thinking that he's arguing that you arranged for everyone to die, when it's obviously more along the lines of "all the flips fit with you being scum".
That doesn't actually make sense though - they "fit" with a large number of people being scum, they certainly don't fit with me more for some reason. Also, i don't think that's what he's saying, he specifically pointed out how the dead who flipped town suspected me - that's an accusation that I arranged for their deaths, yeah? That's how I read it. Why do you think it isn't?
Second, no, it's not about the change in your playstyle (and not anything re: snark/sarcasm, despite how much you've been shouting it), it's how you dropped aggression - "He's just going along with the flow - even saying as much, that he'd basically place a vote on anyone at one point - yet trying to convince people he's still the same ol' snarky, belligerent Thor when he's really not been."
Well...I will note that *is* an argument about a change in playstyle. I can't very well be defending that I didn't change if I hadn't been accussed of changing.
Yes, it does have to do with the snark/sarcasm thing because that's what he noted as the change.
He did also note the "going with the flow thing" But I would counter that Nacho, probably the player here who has the most awareness of my playstyle specifically noted that comment as exceedingly normal from me - ergo, not a "change". If DYH is pushing what you say he's pushing (and I don't think he is) does it not worry you that he ignored that rather relevant piece of meta from an outside party?
Third, nowhere will you find that he says you arranged for both to be dead, and I'm also sure that nowhere will you find that he says that it benefits you.
Which brings us back again to what is he saying about it. He pointed out there were two dead town who suspected me - my inference is that he means it is beneficial to me they are dead.
If all he's saying is, two players who are no confirmed town suspected you so we know their suspicion was honest...I guess I'd say 'sure - but that hardly means it was right either' I suspected Iso, that doesn't make Iso magically scum if I died first unless my case was any good to begin with.
I haven't bothered for a while since it's falling on deaf ears. Hell, the only reason you even noticed that once was because I challenged you to quote it. It's not worth the energy.
And I did quote it.
I'm sorry that debate tuckers you out, but it's how I scumhunt. I don't see the actual issue there as I'm not ignoring things with 'deaf ears' I'm hearing things and stating why I don't agree with them. I could just as easily whine that my brilliance is falling on deaf ears back at you and have the same validity to do so, it's a nonsensical point - neither of us are deaf, we have a difference of opinion.
That doesn't mean stopping communication is pro-town when communication isn't easy - in fact that is when it's best *not* to stop communication.
Last I checked.
Do you think the flips make me more likely to be scum in the way DYH is suggesting to your mind? Or do you think the flips simply don't totally rule me out of being scum, in which case it seems an odd tack for DYH to take as a push on me, yeah?
Cyouni - early on Fate wagon, that whole "you didn't read stuff" attack from Fate doesn't read as a bus
As Nacho pointed out, Cyouni was the hammer vote. 'Early on Fate wagon' that isn't. I think Cyouni's probably town as well, but that first one doesn't read like you're actually paying attention.
desCoures - preferred Iso lynch to Fate, interactions with Thor, KoL, Llamarble aren't good
Fair enough on llamarble. Even fair enough on Thor, considering you have him as scum. But explain what in blazes you mean by 'interactions with KoL aren't good', because once she actually started contributing I had her consistently as town.
As for the first part, I also wanted llamarble to shoot Fate when Iso looked to be the lynch, and pretty clearly said I would support a Fate lynch as well. Heck, if the wagon hadn't started and ended on a weekend (during which you know for a fact I'm almost never around, because that's been the case in every game you've ever seen me play here) I would probably have happily voted for Fate as well. Or what, you're going to claim you 'forgot it was a weekend'?
-----------------
As for Voxxicus, apparently his entire case is predicated on 'there must be 1 scum on 5-person wagons on town'. Riiight. I'm barely seeing any behavioural analysis in that whole post, except for where he claims Vierni hasn't done much of anything. Ignoring, I note, the point where Vierni was key in bringing the Fate wagon to fruition. A point I make in the several questions I pose to him and which he has totally ignored.
(Additionally, one of his '5-person wagons on town' happens to include him. What a coincidence.)
I'm additionally unenthused by the fact that he stopped by, posted well after the mod's posted votecount, and neglected to even begin to claim, despite being at L-2. You're not from MS, Voxxicus. You don't have that excuse.
Unvote: Cyan
HoS with intent to vote: Voxxicus
There's not a shred of sincerity in what you're throwing out, Voxxicus. Your posts in Redux 2 Mirror were full of behavioural insight. I'm seeing none of that here.
This post feels thoroughly bad. DC shouldn't have been so easily distracted from his case against me. And if he were town, I would expect him to stick with it more(especially given that I acknowledged that he made valid points).
His assessment thaT Voxx should claim, while correct, still comes across poorly also. Unvote, Vote DC
Sorry, looks like I just landed a gig tonight, very last minute. I will have internet but will also be doing 6 day work weeks so...y'know. I guess if nothing else it will be a chance to strengthen the playstyle shift case on me as I become more distant and less focused again
Also, @mod: V/LA September 20-23 - I may have access but it won't be very good.
--
I'm now thoroughly confused by desCoures' place in this site's meta.
Although, a theory question since I've already forgotten the answer. Why not place Voxxicus at L-1? If Voxxicus self-hammers, well and good; if someone else hammers, they get held accountable; if neither of the above, it's entirely safe. Right now I just get to be Canehdian and call desCoures a HoSer.
dC is an exceptional town player. Given my thoughts thus far, I'm not seeing the typical results, hence the suspicion.
@Nacho:
Re: Cyouni & Fate - Cyouni was voting Fate prior to the end-of-day wagon; that's the one I'm referring to. IIRC, it was in response to a lack of follow-up other than "you didn't read all those games" as a reason to vote him.
Re: Cyan - I have no idea why he's doing what he's doing at this point. I don't believe I have ever in my years of playing with Cyan seen him this humble. I don't mean that he's normally an arrogant jerk or anything, but to state that everyone in the thread is equal/better than him comes off as out of character. I don't know what to make of it.
Re: your vote on end-of-day Fate wagon - you are correct, I failed to note that.
@dC:
See above re: Cyouni + Nacho.
Re: KoL - I recall you poking at her in the early game, and then later harping on Cyan for his read on her. His read was founded in her early play, because he was on her case all day long; feels inconsistent.
As for the rest, your 890 comes on the heels of two votes for Fate in the prior five posts, so that reads a little insincere. The possibility of a scum roleblocker exists as it pertains to the poison-targeting.
Allowing the scum to cut the day short by self-hammering can sometimes be detrimental. We tend to be pretty verbose, and there's more than one scum to catch most of the time - so no need to stop people from talking. Interactions around finishing off a lynch can be telling.
Also it prevents quick-lose situations in the late game.
@Vierni: There is no real reason TO put anyone at L-1. When people on here get to L-2, they know that they're expected to claim, and then we evaluate their claim in combination w/ everything else. Putting them at L-1 might be fine in this particular game, but with less seasoned players, it's just asking for someone to screw up and lynch someone before the town is really ready for it.
First: I refuse to claim. I see no reason to, as the votes on me are mostly naked votes with zero reasoning.
A claim only helps scum, at the moment, and as we will not be lynching me (because I'm town), there's no point in claiming.
I'm going to try and explain my thought process, and methods.
The way I play the game is to town hunt, and sort the game into two clusters: Town, and Not Town. Once I write someone off as town, I largely ignore them, and focus on the Not Town cluster, trying to narrow it down further. If multiple people in the Not Town cluster flip town, claim roles that are almost certainly town, or do something behaviorally to be moved to the Town cluster, then I re-evaluate people I'd written off as town earlier in the game.
I keep notes in a personal quicktopic (which I obviously can't link, until post-game), and the core is an ever-shifting reads list, which I use to color in vote counts.
Here's where it stands, currently:
Voxxicus Iso
Kami of Lunacy
Llamarble
DYH
Thor
Nacho
Vierni
Cyan
Cyouni
desCoures Aggressive Fate
ROYGBIV spectrum.
The Violets are all self-explanatory.
I want Llamarble to shoot one of the cluster of four plausible scum that we do not lynch, to both A) 100% confirm him as town, and B) narrow down the PoE pool as fast as possible. But I'm still probably 97% sure he's town, regardless of a second shot.
DYH is a more interesting read. I mostly skimmed the D1 Thor/Iso/DYH walls of words, because I found them profoundly uninteresting (and I was working on limited time). Given that, the only thing I had any read on DYH from was him backing down off of Cyan after their interactions, which didn't feel anything like Town!DYH to me at the time. So he was squarely in the Not Town cluster prior to flips and a re-read.
But I re-read the game overnight, and paid closer attention to the Thor/Iso/DYH interactions - I was pretty sure Iso and Fate were scum together, and wanted to solidify that, as well as determine DYH's alignment. What I found was that DYH was incredibly likely to be town. He's convinced he's right, and is tunneling everything into that world view. That's absolutely a town tell, and is one of the most accurate. There's a mindset difference between twisting everything to paint someone as scum, and tunneling hard on them, believing that what they're doing, and what you're saying makes them scum. DYH has that mindset, and is town.
Thor and Nacho are both very uneasy town reads.
Thor is probably town almost entirely because of the end of D1, and the way he reacted to the fast Fate wagon - it reads genuine to me - he thought Fate was going to flip town, and there was no backing down from that. He's at least theoretically possible scum, and his bit about 'what scum can't fake' makes me paranoid, because I can see that being scum!Thor taking a jab at things for his own amusement, but I'm willing to write him off as town for the time being.
Nacho, though, my gut still screams at me that he's scum. His play this game has been beyond abysmal, and everything I said about him early in D1 yesterday still stands. But I can't shake the fact that the Fate/Nacho interactions don't look anything like scumbuddies. It looks like Fate appeasing town that is voting for him, and that conciliatory buddying is just... not something I can really see scum doing to a buddy. Probably. I'd probably have shot him N1 if I was he vig, regardless, though, because gut.
That leaves 4 living people that are in the Not Town cluster, currently:
desCoures
Vierni
Cyouni
Cyan
I've been focusing on the interactions between people in this cluster, and trying to determine plausible scum teams.
Vi coming out with guns blazing and voting Cyouni prooobbbably means they aren't scum together, not after we lynched Fate on D1. And yes, I think it's entirely likely that Vi bussed Fate D1 - go back and look at the interactions with the late Iso wagon, and everyone pointing Fate out as a good vig target. Scum!Vi trying to get the town credit for leading that lynch rather than just letting Fate get vigged and not benefiting his scum team with the flip at all seems pretty plausible.
I've read back through looking for the Cyan/Vi interaction that indicates they aren't scum together that I noted but I can't find it. I'm going to assume that I wasn't bat**** crazy when I first made that note, though, and there's something there - but not writing it off absolutely.
dC fits fine with any of the other three. I'd say slightly less likely to be scum with Cyouni than Cyan or Vi, but not drastically so (due to wagon analysis).
At least one of dC and Cyouni is scum. I'm heavily leaning towards dC, especially given the way he dismissed the vote count analysis - scum can't argue against wagon analysis, the only thing they can do is A) dismiss it, and B) discredit the person trying to use it.
Going to go through and answer specific questions, though most of it has probably been answered above.
Cyouni asked for reasons on the DYH read, covered that above.
dC threw a question batch at me, here:
Quote from dC »
@Voxxicus
Riddle me these, please.
1. Why do you not think Vierni is town, given that Vierni was the second vote on Fate's wagon?
2. Why is DYH now suddenly your 'strongest town read'? Reasons, please.
3. Why is Vierni/Cyan not a possibility, and why is Vierni/Cyouni not a possibility?
And, this one..
4. Why do you not mention that 'with luck, we hit both scum and win'... and not mention that if we hit two town, we're at LyLo?
1. I think it's pretty likely Fate was bussed, and Vi fits that the best. I encourage others to go back and look at the interactions there - Fate was being thrown around as 'vig this guy', and Vi swaps from putting Iso at L-1, to Fate. Vi also shoots down Cyan's assertion that it felt like 'throwing darts' if we lynched Scum!Fate (which makes Cyan a little more town in my eyes). With the speed of the wagon, and the general lack of resistance to it, Vi (or Nacho, in edge cases) pushing that wagon makes perfect sense.
2. Covered this. Mindset analysis.
3. Not sure anymore why I had Vi/Cyan as not an option, but I have trouble seeing Vi coming out and voting a scumbuddy after D1. Also, they were attacking each other D1 on the basis of 'the other player is bad', which just seems like a really weird thing for two scumbuddies to attack on. If they know the other person is scum, they can find legiimately scummy things to attack, rather than 'being bad'.
4. ... more proof that you're scum. You aren't even thinking. There's a cluster of four players that I believe scum reside in. If two of them flip town, then what does it matter if the next day is LYLO? The remaining two players are scum.
Quote from Thor »
What I want to know is how often is DYH paranoid?
Have you seen it before?
Is it a common thing from him?
I don't think DYH is expressing paranoia. It's an absolute conviction that you're scum, and he's using the pieces that he knows to fit that world view.
And I can understand where he's coming from. Consider it this way - which is more likely to be the case:
Scum - 3 - Town, Town, Town
Town - 3 - Town, Town, Town
I don't think anyone other than DYH, Iso or KoL ever voted you. So from his perspective, he knows 100% that all three players attacking you were town. With no possible scum also attacking you, despite there being a consistent push the entire day, it makes you even more likely to be scum in his eyes.
And I get the logic.
I just happen to think that the scum team didn't really want to bother with fighting the massive batches of words and sarcasm that would spew forth if more people attacked you.
Probably.
Or you're scum, and the sarcasm has been a deflection method, albeit an exceptionally irritating one.
But I don't think that's the case.
But yes, DYH tunneling and locked in on someone he is sure is scum is a common thing from him as town.
Quote from Nacho »
Cyouni already said this. Got any other, better reasons?
Nope. That's the only thing this game that has happened that makes me think you might be town. It's just a really strong interaction.
Quote from Nacho »
What's his advantage of doing it as scum?
WiFOM, I guess? Like, Cyan is aggressive, confident, and slightly arrogant. He's a good player, and I don't mean that as an insult in the least. I was just trying to figure out where this sudden, random humble, conciliatory 'I'm willing to be lynched' thing came from, because while I'm not sure why he'd do it as scum, I can't see him doing it as Town, either. Still not entirely sure what to make of it.
Quote from Llamarble »
Will do for now. The whole him-dC interaction of him calling dC obvobvtown for reasons that never became clear followed by todays reversal while dC just kind of keeps the whole thing at arm length yesterday and then votes him today is sketchy on both sides.
+
Well I suppose the reasons weren't un*clear* they just seemed meh to me (too strong a read off only a couple of posts without any evident deliberation)
You've been locked into me the whole game for playstyle reasons. I write people off as town, and then readjust later if necessary. It's still possible that I was right about dC, but there's enough town players piling up, and his more recent behavior has been bad enough, that I re-evaluated, and found him lacking.
Quote from Cyouni »
Clarify the purpose of this question.
I don't have extensive experience with Town!Cyan. Checks and Balances as it. The rest is all reputation, and I was struggling to reconcile the Cyan I've seen (and heard about) with the 'yeah, I guess you can lynch me, it might be for the best' humble, almost self-depreciating Cyan I was seeing there. It felt weird, and I wanted to see how he'd respond.
Quote from desCoures »
As for Voxxicus, apparently his entire case is predicated on 'there must be 1 scum on 5-person wagons on town'. Riiight. I'm barely seeing any behavioural analysis in that whole post, except for where he claims Vierni hasn't done much of anything. Ignoring, I note, the point where Vierni was key in bringing the Fate wagon to fruition. A point I make in the several questions I pose to him and which he has totally ignored.
(Additionally, one of his '5-person wagons on town' happens to include him. What a coincidence.)
I'm additionally unenthused by the fact that he stopped by, posted well after the mod's posted votecount, and neglected to even begin to claim, despite being at L-2. You're not from MS, Voxxicus. You don't have that excuse.
Unvote: Cyan
HoS with intent to vote: Voxxicus
There's not a shred of sincerity in what you're throwing out, Voxxicus. Your posts in Redux 2 Mirror were full of behavioural insight. I'm seeing none of that here.
Did you perhaps miss where I said I didn't have much time, and was just throwing out some vote count analysis from my notes? I rambled on a little bit after that from what I intended to, but it wasn't remotely supposed to be a comprehensive post.
But no, reading carefully isn't something scum have to do.
Being dismissive of vote count analysis is adorable, too - can't argue against it, so just dismiss it, and try to discredit me? Good plan.
Voxxicus, I'm curious. You keep saying "I'm Town" as self-justification. Why are you Town? ...and to preclude that response, please use justification visible inthread.
---
desCoures. You've got three out of four people from your site selling you out. Your response, please.
Film and television production.
Basically I work in the assistant director's department - we organize the set, corral actors, place background, and keep the rest of the crew vaguely focused about what they're supposed to be doing.
Job is a little more up in the air than i thought, but I'm interviewing for it now - if it goes well v/la holds, if not I'll let people know. I am suspicious it will go well because I do an awesome interview.
I did kind of read/skim the new postings.
@Vi - what happened to wanting to push DYH? I feel like the Cy wagon crumbled and all of a sudden you're on Voxx, I thought I was promised DYH...and if it wasn't you it was Nacho...
@Nacho - if it was you, what happened to DYH?
One of you owes me a sheep I think, or a really good explanation of the Voxx wagon. I mean, I vaguely support it, but I support it in a sense of Voxx isn't a town read rather than having the ability to describe him as scum. That's not actually hideous at this stage, but it's not anything to write home about either.
Thor is probably town almost entirely because of the end of D1, and the way he reacted to the fast Fate wagon - it reads genuine to me - he thought Fate was going to flip town, and there was no backing down from that. He's at least theoretically possible scum, and his bit about 'what scum can't fake' makes me paranoid, because I can see that being scum!Thor taking a jab at things for his own amusement, but I'm willing to write him off as town for the time being.
Sadly, this about sums up my meta on MS.
"Thor looks town...but, y'know, maybe we should lynch him anyway"
"What's the case?"
"It's Thor - you can never know."
That said, could you clarify the difference between my play, which has been called tunneled, and DYH's play, which you called tunneled? I feel like you're grasping at straws to protect DYH, personally, and want you to explain why you aren't.
Film and television production.
Basically I work in the assistant director's department - we organize the set, corral actors, place background, and keep the rest of the crew vaguely focused about what they're supposed to be doing.
Job is a little more up in the air than i thought, but I'm interviewing for it now - if it goes well v/la holds, if not I'll let people know. I am suspicious it will go well because I do an awesome interview.
Excellent and excellent. I'd shadow you for a day if I could.
@Vi - what happened to wanting to push DYH? I feel like the Cy wagon crumbled and all of a sudden you're on Voxx, I thought I was promised DYH...and if it wasn't you it was Nacho...
I wouldn't protest a DYH lynch. I just think that I should instead Unvote: Voxxicus
Vote: desCoures (L-2)
dC's latest Voxxicus + DYH team at least sounds pretty good but I'll admit my reading timechunk is still to come.
I think Fate was 'the MS scum'
I will still be very impressed if Cyan's scum.
dC/Voxxicus/DYH is a good area to be looking in
I can shoot tonight, but I do not plan to as it will simply deny us a lynch.
There is plenty of weirdness in the DYH/dC/Voxxicus world which I shall spend more time looking at, but I won't be at all surprised if the last 2 are there.
I don't plan to shoot tonight because without a doctor, I don't think town has any abilities left that would make my action anything other than a less informed lynch.
Could you wipe your read of Vi clean and re-read him? dC is scum, and I'm starting to get more and more sure that Vi is the other scum. Take your time, though, because:
V/LA 2-3 days.
Massive project deadline on the 18th - if the presentation goes well, I could net a sizable bonus.
Charles Meade, Town Vanilla. Parole officer. Tipped investigators off to Garza's description.
This is not the PR you're looking for, Voxxicus. Too bad.
Splitting this post into two. The latter is responses to Voxxicus and more points as to why his mindset is off for town. I strongly recommend all to read the latter, especially if you actually do lynch me. Especially since I just spent over an hour combing the thread for votes.
Although, a theory question since I've already forgotten the answer. Why not place Voxxicus at L-1? If Voxxicus self-hammers, well and good; if someone else hammers, they get held accountable; if neither of the above, it's entirely safe. Right now I just get to be Canehdian and call desCoures a HoSer.
The other reason is if someone claims cop or doctor at L-1, some scum that feels they're going down anyway might quickhammer.
desCoures. You've got three out of four people from your site selling you out. Your response, please.
My response is that since I'm all but certain 2 out of those 3 are scum, it doesn't make the slightest difference to me what happens. Even if you lynch me, it'll work as a form of PoE - and heck, when I flip town it'll be that much more evidence against Voxxicus.
Let's do a quick recap -
You and Nacho I don't think are scum thanks to the way the Fate wagon happened. Cyouni I don't think is scum because of the entire initial argument between him and Fate, and, after combing the thread, he's absolutely right about him having been on Fate early and consistently. llamarble, as much as his behaviour and reads have been horrible, is unlikely to be scum thanks to his role.
That leaves, Voxxicus, Thor, Cyan, and DYH. I've had a town read of Thor since halfway through day 1, and I feel the way he seemed utterly convinced of Fate being town even in twilight doesn't ring of scum in the least. I can't see Cyan and DYH as scum together - as I told Iso, the two of them choosing to randomly vote each other out of nowhere at a time when no one was paying any attention to either one would be inexplicable for two scumbuddies. That leaves - Voxxicus. Whose contribution has been lacking, who is using questionable and cherry-picked methodology to paint me (and you, for that matter) as scum following our votes on him, and who unilaterally wants llamarble to shoot one of his alleged scum reads tonight (now knowing that llamarble can't take flips into account before shooting) instead of suggesting we use llamarble's shot as a second lynch, which is what townies do here on a regular basis.
As for Cyan and DYH, while Cyan's day 1 looks far worse, DYH's day 2 posts are nothing short of horrible, most especially his sudden scum read of me after not having mentioned me at all for most of the game.
dC is an exceptional town player. Given my thoughts thus far, I'm not seeing the typical results, hence the suspicion.
Oh, really?
That sounds rather unlike what you said here, which distinctly reads like you disagree with what llamarble said. You know, where llamarble says basically the exact same thing you say here.
And what exactly are the 'typical results', pray tell?
Re: KoL - I recall you poking at her in the early game, and then later harping on Cyan for his read on her. His read was founded in her early play, because he was on her case all day long; feels inconsistent.
Two things -
Firstly, yes, I poked at her in the early game. Like less than a hundred posts in, because she was doing nothing and then went V/LA. And then when she actually started contributing I was pretty sure she was town. What's inconsistent there?
Likewise, because I had a town read on her after that, I 'harped on Cyan' for his apparently unchanging read of her - especially since, as I noted in my review, he was not, in fact, 'on her case all day long'. What's inconsistent there?
(Answer - nothing is inconsistent. You're making up points as you go along.)
As for the rest, your 890 comes on the heels of two votes for Fate in the prior five posts, so that reads a little insincere. The possibility of a scum roleblocker exists as it pertains to the poison-targeting.
So are we playing what-ifs now? 'What if' there is a scum roleblocker. 'What if' I had some convoluted plan involving said scum roleblocker, when I could have easily exhorted him to shoot Voxxicus instead - or do you think Voxxicus and I are scum together after this whole rigmarole? Those aren't the words of someone looking for scum. Those are the words of someone looking to cast doubt.
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Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
DYH is a more interesting read. I mostly skimmed the D1 Thor/Iso/DYH walls of words, because I found them profoundly uninteresting (and I was working on limited time). Given that, the only thing I had any read on DYH from was him backing down off of Cyan after their interactions, which didn't feel anything like Town!DYH to me at the time. So he was squarely in the Not Town cluster prior to flips and a re-read.
But I re-read the game overnight, and paid closer attention to the Thor/Iso/DYH interactions - I was pretty sure Iso and Fate were scum together, and wanted to solidify that, as well as determine DYH's alignment. What I found was that DYH was incredibly likely to be town. He's convinced he's right, and is tunneling everything into that world view. That's absolutely a town tell, and is one of the most accurate. There's a mindset difference between twisting everything to paint someone as scum, and tunneling hard on them, believing that what they're doing, and what you're saying makes them scum. DYH has that mindset, and is town.
Uh huh. Explain why I'm scum, then, given that this is apparently your argument for DYH as town.
Vi coming out with guns blazing and voting Cyouni prooobbbably means they aren't scum together, not after we lynched Fate on D1. And yes, I think it's entirely likely that Vi bussed Fate D1 - go back and look at the interactions with the late Iso wagon, and everyone pointing Fate out as a good vig target. Scum!Vi trying to get the town credit for leading that lynch rather than just letting Fate get vigged and not benefiting his scum team with the flip at all seems pretty plausible.
In what world would scum ever want to lynch other scum instead of town, even if said other scum were likely to get shot at night? Just going by the numbers that's a horrible losing proposition.
This assertion is additionally ridiculous when you consider that llamarble claimed poisoner, not vig, and was purposely coy about the details of his role. I would and did assume from such a claim that Fate would only die night 2 or day 3. In which case this makes additionally no sense whatsoever for Vierni to do, since you'd get at least one night of Fate using his rolecop ability. Seriously, in what world does mafia like killing off their own PRs early instead of mislynching town?
Also, in that context, how in the world does that crackpot theory work with you having me as scum - me, who wanted llamarble to shoot Fate and no one else, as a de facto second lynch, in post #890, which could only ever work together with DYH's what-ifs as to scum roleblockers and redirectors?
I've read back through looking for the Cyan/Vi interaction that indicates they aren't scum together that I noted but I can't find it. I'm going to assume that I wasn't bat**** crazy when I first made that note, though, and there's something there - but not writing it off absolutely.
So.... you can't actually explain that at all. And yet you're continuing on as though it's an established fact.
I'd have to be a nine-year old child to believe you.
dC fits fine with any of the other three. I'd say slightly less likely to be scum with Cyouni than Cyan or Vi, but not drastically so (due to wagon analysis).
At least one of dC and Cyouni is scum. I'm heavily leaning towards dC, especially given the way he dismissed the vote count analysis - scum can't argue against wagon analysis, the only thing they can do is A) dismiss it, and B) discredit the person trying to use it.
I dismissed it because it's rubbish. For the first thing, 5-town wagons on town are eminently possible, if the town is scummy enough, and equally possible are wagons on scum with all of said scum's buddies on it. Which is why wagon analysis is helpful, but not exhaustively so. You, on the other hand, presented your 'wagon analysis' as though it were conclusive evidence.
Secondly, your 'wagon analysis' was rubbish for two reasons - the first being the small sample size, and said small sample size being due to your cherry-picking, which is made obvious by where you take the effort to go back and find llamarble's wagon, but not any of the other 5-man wagons this game - and yes, there were others that Fate wasn't on.
The second reason your 'wagon analysis' was rubbish was because it's arbitrary. I was apparently one of your firmest town reads day 1, and you yourself admitted that you had absolutely no behavioural reason to suspect me - yet you have me as scum through 'wagon analysis' while having Nacho and Thor, your 'uncertain town reads' listed in blue on said analysis. Who are you kidding?
There's only one reason, to my mind, that you suddenly want to paint me as scum. I was wrong day 1, and thus you supported me - today I'm right, and you want to shut me up.
--------------------------
Let me take a pause here, and present - every 5-man wagon in this game save Fate's, with some additional comments on when they stopped being 5-man wagons.
1. Iso - Thor, Cyan, Vierni, KoL, Nacho (as of #82)
The original Iso wagon. Fate's not on this one, is he? 2. Cyouni - llamarble, Vierni, Fate, Nacho, Thor (as of #365) - Vierni unvotes following claim. 3. Nacho - Voxxicus, Iso, KoL, Vierni, DYH (as of #408)
Vierni unvotes pretty quickly, even without a claim. Who's the scum here, Voxxicus? 4. Nacho - Voxxicus, Iso, KoL, DYH, Cyan (as of #428)
Cyan votes to put Nacho back at L-2, and then unvotes following Nacho's follow-up posts. I find it very interesting that it's two town, Cyan, Voxxicus, and DYH on this wagon. Who's the scum here, Voxxicus? 5. KoL - llamarble, Cyan, Vierni, Fate (for completion's sake - KoL claimed after this)
Forgot to note the post number, since it never hit 5 votes. 6. llamarble - me, KoL, Iso, Cyouni, Voxxicus (as of #799)
Voxxicus unvotes and votes Iso after first 'wanting flavour' then swallowing it immediately. In a game where we've been told flavourgaming won't work. Feh. 7. Iso - Thor, Fate, Cyan, Voxxicus, llamarble (as of #821)
Oh hey, I see Voxxicus again. And Fate as well, of course, but Voxxicus as well. 8. Iso - Thor, Fate, Cyan, Voxxicus, llamarble, Vierni (as of #874) Vierni soon unvotes to vote Fate instead. Inexplicable to my mind for scum. llamarble soon unvotes to follow Vierni onto Fate. 9. Iso - Thor, Fate, Cyan, Voxxicus, me (as of #890)
Iso was the largest wagon, and I was leaving for the weekend. Note I say Fate and no one else should be shot.
Even removing '5-man wagons that Fate was on', it's exceedingly clear that Voxxicus cherry-picked the wagons he wanted, leaving out most notably 3, and 4. Which, I posit, he left out because he and his last scumbuddy are on them.
Riddle me these, please.
1. Why do you not think Vierni is town, given that Vierni was the second vote on Fate's wagon?
2. Why is DYH now suddenly your 'strongest town read'? Reasons, please.
3. Why is Vierni/Cyan not a possibility, and why is Vierni/Cyouni not a possibility?
And, this one..
4. Why do you not mention that 'with luck, we hit both scum and win'... and not mention that if we hit two town, we're at LyLo?
1. I think it's pretty likely Fate was bussed, and Vi fits that the best. I encourage others to go back and look at the interactions there - Fate was being thrown around as 'vig this guy', and Vi swaps from putting Iso at L-1, to Fate. Vi also shoots down Cyan's assertion that it felt like 'throwing darts' if we lynched Scum!Fate (which makes Cyan a little more town in my eyes). With the speed of the wagon, and the general lack of resistance to it, Vi (or Nacho, in edge cases) pushing that wagon makes perfect sense.
This is laughable at best. If Fate was bussed, Vierni's vote makes the least sense of all - even Nacho is more likely to be scum than she is. Her additional vote turned Iso as the lynch from a virtual certainty into one of two choices. And it would have to be one of the most daring gambits I've seen since Harry Potter Mafia's mason gambit for her to give up a mislynch to lynch a scumbuddy.
And, again, this whole krap logick line of reasoning doesn't mesh at all with you having me - the person that wanted llamarble to shoot Fate - as scum at all, yet you still have me and Vierni as a possible scum pairing.
3. Not sure anymore why I had Vi/Cyan as not an option, but I have trouble seeing Vi coming out and voting a scumbuddy after D1. Also, they were attacking each other D1 on the basis of 'the other player is bad', which just seems like a really weird thing for two scumbuddies to attack on. If they know the other person is scum, they can find legiimately scummy things to attack, rather than 'being bad'.
Still no explanation for Vi/Cyan not being an option, yet continuing to treat it as fact. Heh.
4. ... more proof that you're scum. You aren't even thinking. There's a cluster of four players that I believe scum reside in. If two of them flip town, then what does it matter if the next day is LYLO? The remaining two players are scum.
Considering I think you're scum, it's a pretty valid concern from where I'm standing. Especially considering that, even if you want llamarble to fire, you're not asking for input from the town as to how to use his shot as a second lynch, which would be what I would expect any MtGS town to first consider, but instead to shoot one of a group of four that you selected based on arbitrary reasoning, of which I think 2 are town and know 1 is town.
Additionally so now that you have Nacho and Thor as 'uncertain town reads'. That's an obvious platform to getting one of them lynched on day 3 for the win.
Quote from desCoures »
As for Voxxicus, apparently his entire case is predicated on 'there must be 1 scum on 5-person wagons on town'. Riiight. I'm barely seeing any behavioural analysis in that whole post, except for where he claims Vierni hasn't done much of anything. Ignoring, I note, the point where Vierni was key in bringing the Fate wagon to fruition. A point I make in the several questions I pose to him and which he has totally ignored.
(Additionally, one of his '5-person wagons on town' happens to include him. What a coincidence.)
I'm additionally unenthused by the fact that he stopped by, posted well after the mod's posted votecount, and neglected to even begin to claim, despite being at L-2. You're not from MS, Voxxicus. You don't have that excuse.
Unvote: Cyan
HoS with intent to vote: Voxxicus
There's not a shred of sincerity in what you're throwing out, Voxxicus. Your posts in Redux 2 Mirror were full of behavioural insight. I'm seeing none of that here.
Did you perhaps miss where I said I didn't have much time, and was just throwing out some vote count analysis from my notes? I rambled on a little bit after that from what I intended to, but it wasn't remotely supposed to be a comprehensive post.
But no, reading carefully isn't something scum have to do.
Being dismissive of vote count analysis is adorable, too - can't argue against it, so just dismiss it, and try to discredit me? Good plan.
Won't work.
Let's lynch dC.[/QUOTE]
You expect me to believe you 'didn't have time' and yet combed back through to find the cherry-picked 5-man wagons you wanted? Or perhaps you're going to say that you had those in your notes before and just put them up... which makes your assertion in this that you been 'picking through and trying find 5-man wagons that Fate wasn't on' all the more laughable for how obvious it makes your carefully slanted selection. Heck, that post is all the more ridiculous for how you make all manner of behavioural insinuations against Vierni... then turn around and vote me with nothing more than a sheer paucity of behavioural reasoning. Seriously, who do you think you're kidding?
-------------
tl;dr -
1. Voxxicus is inconsistent and arbitrary in his reads, especially re: me and DYH.
2. Voxxicus has frankly ridiculous arguments to attempt to keep Vierni as a possible lynch/kill, that requires scum-Vierni to want to kill off one of her team's own PRs early instead of mislynching town.
3. Voxxicus wants llamarble to fire unilaterally instead of being a second lynch or not firing at all. Note that if we lynch town and kill town we're at LyLo, and he's clearly hedged his bets for an opening to lynch Thor or Nacho.
4. Voxxicus cherry-picks his wagons for analysis, and his behavioural analysis (especially re: possible scum pairs) is utterly lacking.
Voxxicus is blatantly dishonest scum, and needs to die. Lynch him today, kill him tonight, or lynch him tomorrow after lynching me and I flip town. It makes no difference to me. I'm 90% certain that if Voxxicus, DYH, and Cyan die (probably in that order) town wins. And I obviously don't need to be alive for that to happen.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
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Last I checked, in any game scum won, they did so with a given number of mislynches.
I wasn't aware that the ones on the front end were less helpful to them than the ones on the back end.
What is this gak?
I don't like it.
Stop.
And I'm not calling DYH town yet, certainly not to the point I want to theorize about scumteams with that as a concept, I'm allowed to have moments of doubt during my death tunnels. I'll maybe get back to you on this if some of his site mates defend the paranoia - otherwise I'll just call it flailing and we can return to the 1v1 already in progress.
The wagon on me is three non MS guys who apparently went 'baaaaw' Thor is aggressive and has opinions, must be scum, because our town players never do that! Also - DGB on the case of 'Thor disagrees with me that he is scum'.
I'll do some reading tomorrow.
Voxxicus - 2 - Vierni, Nachomamma8 (L-3)
DYH - 1 - Thor665 (L-4)
Thor665 - 1 - DYH (L-4)
Cyan - 1 - desCoures (L-4)
Not Voting: Cyan, Cyouni, llamarble, Voxxicus
--
If the people in the last line, plus DYH, could move their votes I think everyone would be most appreciative.
Will do for now. The whole him-dC interaction of him calling dC obvobvtown for reasons that never became clear followed by todays reversal while dC just kind of keeps the whole thing at arm length yesterday and then votes him today is sketchy on both sides.
Thor has also failed to become useful again despite removal of Iso
It's kind of scary how dC's analysis echoed my own thoughts.
The first paragraph is supporting dC's analysis, the second one's obliquely aiming to discredit it.
Clarify the purpose of this question.
Because I'm active scumhunting and offering reads and opinions on multiple players?
Where do you think I'm dropping the ball exactly? Because either your standards are too high, or they're silly.
Apparently Cyourni has decided for some period of time that I am totally misunderstanding what DYH has been saying and did...literally nothing about it till i directly asked him his opinion, and then *also* still didn't clarify and required the asking of a second question.
I mean, seriously now.
Stop that.
I want to be the lazy one in the game again, this is annoying.
If I get lynched today, Cyouni is worth lynching based purely on this post.
TOWN
Llamarble - confirmed use of ability, late-day data dump read strongly town, unlikely to be scum
Cyouni - early on Fate wagon, that whole "you didn't read stuff" attack from Fate doesn't read as a bus
Vierni - I really liked much of day 1 content, specifically around ideas on scumhunting given the cross-site interactions. Early on Fate.
Nacho - liked the analysis posts once he came under pressure; some questionable voting history (Cyouni following Fate, Cyouni again today)
Cyan - late wishy-washy behavior on Iso/Fate, bizarre behavior here Day 2 has dropped him down to a neutral read
Voxxicus - was absent much of day 1 understandably, so not much to go on; slight hedge on the Iso/Fate end of day interactions
desCoures - preferred Iso lynch to Fate, interactions with Thor, KoL, Llamarble aren't good
Thor665 - duh
SCUM
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 5
Voxxicus - 3 - Vierni, Nachomamma8, Llamarble - (L-2)
Cyan - 2 - desCoures, Cyouni - (L-3)
DYH - 1 - Thor665 - (L-4)
Thor665 - 1 - DYH - (L-4)
Players not voting: Cyan, Voxxicus
Llamarble - 5 - desCoures, Kami of Lunacy, Iso, Cyouni, Voxxicus - (L-2)
Aggressive_Fate - 7 - Nachomamma8, Vierni, Llamarble, Kami of Lunacy, DYH, Cyan, Cyouni - (L-0)
Iso - 4 - Thor665, Aggressive_Fate, Voxxicus, desCoures - (L-3)
Llamarble - 1 - Iso - (L-6)
Don't have a ton of time right now, just trying to throw some thoughts together before I head in to work. Short day, though so I will be able to sink some time into this tonight.
Been picking through and trying to find wagons of 5+ that Fate wasn't on.
Pretty sure Nacho reached L-2 (so 5-man wagon) at some point, but it'll take some vote combing to pull that together.
It is extremely, extremely rare to have a 5-man wagon on town on D1 and zero scum be on it. I'm talking in the usual 12-man, 9/3 setups - basics/minis. You can look back through the Mentor QT in House I had with Proph where we did some research on completed games, and I talked about it more in depth.
I'd say it's almost certain that at least one of dC or Cyouni is scum. Both being scum is plausible.
There's probbbably also one scum between Vierni and Cyan. That's a little less certain than the dC/Cyouni cluster, though.
Vi's setting off an awful lot of alarms on re-read. There's just....nothing there. Empty bandwagon vote after empty bandwagon vote with nothing resembling logic, reasoning, or scumhunting.
The KoL wagon/push was Marble, Cyan and Vi - with Vi still wanting to lynch the claimed doc after the claim.
Thor is at least theoretically possible scum, given that the three people that were pushing him D1 are all town. But given his uh. Nature. I'm inclined to accept that scum just wanted no part of trying to lynch the vomit of words.
Gut scum team call is Fate/dC/Vi.
Cyan is probably the most likely scum in a vacuum, based on analysis, but I have trouble seeing him being scum with dC, after dC swaps from me to him, and I have trouble seeing Cyan/Vi being a thing.
Cyan/Cyouni, possibly? But eh.
Let's lynch dC.
Vote: desCoures
I really liked dC's early game. It was focused, driven, and there was follow-up. I wrote him off as town due to that, but flips and claims caused me to re-evaluate, and I've reluctantly accepted that I was probably wrong.
Work time for me, I'll try to answer questions specifically and further explain my thought process this evening.
But we aren't lynching me, because I'm town, and it's a terrible lynch.
We're lynching one of Cyouni or desCoures, preferably - with Cyan or Vi being acceptable.
Why not? The hammer on the Fate wagon also doesn't seem like a very early position to me.
I was also the earliest on the Fate wagon. Why didn't I get credit for that?
Why would he be acting this way as scum?
Talk more about this read.
@DYH
As Nacho pointed out, Cyouni was the hammer vote. 'Early on Fate wagon' that isn't. I think Cyouni's probably town as well, but that first one doesn't read like you're actually paying attention.
Ignoring the fact that he was the very first vote on Fate's wagon, and was the one insisting on keeping his wagon a possibility?
Fair enough on llamarble. Even fair enough on Thor, considering you have him as scum. But explain what in blazes you mean by 'interactions with KoL aren't good', because once she actually started contributing I had her consistently as town.
As for the first part, I also wanted llamarble to shoot Fate when Iso looked to be the lynch, and pretty clearly said I would support a Fate lynch as well. Heck, if the wagon hadn't started and ended on a weekend (during which you know for a fact I'm almost never around, because that's been the case in every game you've ever seen me play here) I would probably have happily voted for Fate as well. Or what, you're going to claim you 'forgot it was a weekend'?
-----------------
As for Voxxicus, apparently his entire case is predicated on 'there must be 1 scum on 5-person wagons on town'. Riiight. I'm barely seeing any behavioural analysis in that whole post, except for where he claims Vierni hasn't done much of anything. Ignoring, I note, the point where Vierni was key in bringing the Fate wagon to fruition. A point I make in the several questions I pose to him and which he has totally ignored.
(Additionally, one of his '5-person wagons on town' happens to include him. What a coincidence.)
I'm additionally unenthused by the fact that he stopped by, posted well after the mod's posted votecount, and neglected to even begin to claim, despite being at L-2. You're not from MS, Voxxicus. You don't have that excuse.
Unvote: Cyan
HoS with intent to vote: Voxxicus
There's not a shred of sincerity in what you're throwing out, Voxxicus. Your posts in Redux 2 Mirror were full of behavioural insight. I'm seeing none of that here.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Can you specify who?
The first thing I see is that you're somehow thinking that he's arguing that you arranged for everyone to die, when it's obviously more along the lines of "all the flips fit with you being scum".
Second, no, it's not about the change in your playstyle (and not anything re: snark/sarcasm, despite how much you've been shouting it), it's how you dropped aggression - "He's just going along with the flow - even saying as much, that he'd basically place a vote on anyone at one point - yet trying to convince people he's still the same ol' snarky, belligerent Thor when he's really not been."
Third, nowhere will you find that he says you arranged for both to be dead, and I'm also sure that nowhere will you find that he says that it benefits you. Not to mention, the point's that you went ahead and voted him first thing while most of your argument was still invalid.
I haven't bothered for a while since it's falling on deaf ears. Hell, the only reason you even noticed that once was because I challenged you to quote it. It's not worth the energy.
The reason I voted Llamarble was because it was a day and a half before deadline and I was the only one on Fate.
The vote was back here:
That doesn't actually make sense though - they "fit" with a large number of people being scum, they certainly don't fit with me more for some reason. Also, i don't think that's what he's saying, he specifically pointed out how the dead who flipped town suspected me - that's an accusation that I arranged for their deaths, yeah? That's how I read it. Why do you think it isn't?
Well...I will note that *is* an argument about a change in playstyle. I can't very well be defending that I didn't change if I hadn't been accussed of changing.
Yes, it does have to do with the snark/sarcasm thing because that's what he noted as the change.
He did also note the "going with the flow thing" But I would counter that Nacho, probably the player here who has the most awareness of my playstyle specifically noted that comment as exceedingly normal from me - ergo, not a "change". If DYH is pushing what you say he's pushing (and I don't think he is) does it not worry you that he ignored that rather relevant piece of meta from an outside party?
Which brings us back again to what is he saying about it. He pointed out there were two dead town who suspected me - my inference is that he means it is beneficial to me they are dead.
If all he's saying is, two players who are no confirmed town suspected you so we know their suspicion was honest...I guess I'd say 'sure - but that hardly means it was right either' I suspected Iso, that doesn't make Iso magically scum if I died first unless my case was any good to begin with.
And I did quote it.
I'm sorry that debate tuckers you out, but it's how I scumhunt. I don't see the actual issue there as I'm not ignoring things with 'deaf ears' I'm hearing things and stating why I don't agree with them. I could just as easily whine that my brilliance is falling on deaf ears back at you and have the same validity to do so, it's a nonsensical point - neither of us are deaf, we have a difference of opinion.
That doesn't mean stopping communication is pro-town when communication isn't easy - in fact that is when it's best *not* to stop communication.
Last I checked.
Do you think the flips make me more likely to be scum in the way DYH is suggesting to your mind? Or do you think the flips simply don't totally rule me out of being scum, in which case it seems an odd tack for DYH to take as a push on me, yeah?
This post feels thoroughly bad. DC shouldn't have been so easily distracted from his case against me. And if he were town, I would expect him to stick with it more(especially given that I acknowledged that he made valid points).
His assessment thaT Voxx should claim, while correct, still comes across poorly also. Unvote, Vote DC
Sorry, looks like I just landed a gig tonight, very last minute. I will have internet but will also be doing 6 day work weeks so...y'know. I guess if nothing else it will be a chance to strengthen the playstyle shift case on me as I become more distant and less focused again
Also, @mod: V/LA September 20-23 - I may have access but it won't be very good.
--
I'm now thoroughly confused by desCoures' place in this site's meta.
Although, a theory question since I've already forgotten the answer. Why not place Voxxicus at L-1? If Voxxicus self-hammers, well and good; if someone else hammers, they get held accountable; if neither of the above, it's entirely safe. Right now I just get to be Canehdian and call desCoures a HoSer.
--
Voxxicus - 3 - Vierni, Nachomamma8, Llamarble - (L-2)
Cyan - 2 - desCoures, Cyouni - (L-3)
desCoures - 2 - Voxxicus, Cyan - (L-3)
DYH - 1 - Thor665 - (L-4)
Thor665 - 1 - DYH - (L-4)
dC is an exceptional town player. Given my thoughts thus far, I'm not seeing the typical results, hence the suspicion.
@Nacho:
Re: Cyouni & Fate - Cyouni was voting Fate prior to the end-of-day wagon; that's the one I'm referring to. IIRC, it was in response to a lack of follow-up other than "you didn't read all those games" as a reason to vote him.
Re: Voxx - see post 966
Re: Cyan - I have no idea why he's doing what he's doing at this point. I don't believe I have ever in my years of playing with Cyan seen him this humble. I don't mean that he's normally an arrogant jerk or anything, but to state that everyone in the thread is equal/better than him comes off as out of character. I don't know what to make of it.
Re: your vote on end-of-day Fate wagon - you are correct, I failed to note that.
@dC:
See above re: Cyouni + Nacho.
Re: KoL - I recall you poking at her in the early game, and then later harping on Cyan for his read on her. His read was founded in her early play, because he was on her case all day long; feels inconsistent.
As for the rest, your 890 comes on the heels of two votes for Fate in the prior five posts, so that reads a little insincere. The possibility of a scum roleblocker exists as it pertains to the poison-targeting.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Allowing the scum to cut the day short by self-hammering can sometimes be detrimental. We tend to be pretty verbose, and there's more than one scum to catch most of the time - so no need to stop people from talking. Interactions around finishing off a lynch can be telling.
Also it prevents quick-lose situations in the late game.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
First: I refuse to claim. I see no reason to, as the votes on me are mostly naked votes with zero reasoning.
A claim only helps scum, at the moment, and as we will not be lynching me (because I'm town), there's no point in claiming.
I'm going to try and explain my thought process, and methods.
The way I play the game is to town hunt, and sort the game into two clusters: Town, and Not Town. Once I write someone off as town, I largely ignore them, and focus on the Not Town cluster, trying to narrow it down further. If multiple people in the Not Town cluster flip town, claim roles that are almost certainly town, or do something behaviorally to be moved to the Town cluster, then I re-evaluate people I'd written off as town earlier in the game.
I keep notes in a personal quicktopic (which I obviously can't link, until post-game), and the core is an ever-shifting reads list, which I use to color in vote counts.
Here's where it stands, currently:
Voxxicus
Iso
Kami of Lunacy
Llamarble
DYH
Thor
Nacho
Vierni
Cyan
Cyouni
desCoures
Aggressive Fate
ROYGBIV spectrum.
The Violets are all self-explanatory.
I want Llamarble to shoot one of the cluster of four plausible scum that we do not lynch, to both A) 100% confirm him as town, and B) narrow down the PoE pool as fast as possible. But I'm still probably 97% sure he's town, regardless of a second shot.
DYH is a more interesting read. I mostly skimmed the D1 Thor/Iso/DYH walls of words, because I found them profoundly uninteresting (and I was working on limited time). Given that, the only thing I had any read on DYH from was him backing down off of Cyan after their interactions, which didn't feel anything like Town!DYH to me at the time. So he was squarely in the Not Town cluster prior to flips and a re-read.
But I re-read the game overnight, and paid closer attention to the Thor/Iso/DYH interactions - I was pretty sure Iso and Fate were scum together, and wanted to solidify that, as well as determine DYH's alignment. What I found was that DYH was incredibly likely to be town. He's convinced he's right, and is tunneling everything into that world view. That's absolutely a town tell, and is one of the most accurate. There's a mindset difference between twisting everything to paint someone as scum, and tunneling hard on them, believing that what they're doing, and what you're saying makes them scum. DYH has that mindset, and is town.
Thor and Nacho are both very uneasy town reads.
Thor is probably town almost entirely because of the end of D1, and the way he reacted to the fast Fate wagon - it reads genuine to me - he thought Fate was going to flip town, and there was no backing down from that. He's at least theoretically possible scum, and his bit about 'what scum can't fake' makes me paranoid, because I can see that being scum!Thor taking a jab at things for his own amusement, but I'm willing to write him off as town for the time being.
Nacho, though, my gut still screams at me that he's scum. His play this game has been beyond abysmal, and everything I said about him early in D1 yesterday still stands. But I can't shake the fact that the Fate/Nacho interactions don't look anything like scumbuddies. It looks like Fate appeasing town that is voting for him, and that conciliatory buddying is just... not something I can really see scum doing to a buddy. Probably. I'd probably have shot him N1 if I was he vig, regardless, though, because gut.
That leaves 4 living people that are in the Not Town cluster, currently:
desCoures
Vierni
Cyouni
Cyan
I've been focusing on the interactions between people in this cluster, and trying to determine plausible scum teams.
Vi coming out with guns blazing and voting Cyouni prooobbbably means they aren't scum together, not after we lynched Fate on D1. And yes, I think it's entirely likely that Vi bussed Fate D1 - go back and look at the interactions with the late Iso wagon, and everyone pointing Fate out as a good vig target. Scum!Vi trying to get the town credit for leading that lynch rather than just letting Fate get vigged and not benefiting his scum team with the flip at all seems pretty plausible.
I've read back through looking for the Cyan/Vi interaction that indicates they aren't scum together that I noted but I can't find it. I'm going to assume that I wasn't bat**** crazy when I first made that note, though, and there's something there - but not writing it off absolutely.
dC fits fine with any of the other three. I'd say slightly less likely to be scum with Cyouni than Cyan or Vi, but not drastically so (due to wagon analysis).
At least one of dC and Cyouni is scum. I'm heavily leaning towards dC, especially given the way he dismissed the vote count analysis - scum can't argue against wagon analysis, the only thing they can do is A) dismiss it, and B) discredit the person trying to use it.
Going to go through and answer specific questions, though most of it has probably been answered above.
Cyouni asked for reasons on the DYH read, covered that above.
dC threw a question batch at me, here:
1. I think it's pretty likely Fate was bussed, and Vi fits that the best. I encourage others to go back and look at the interactions there - Fate was being thrown around as 'vig this guy', and Vi swaps from putting Iso at L-1, to Fate. Vi also shoots down Cyan's assertion that it felt like 'throwing darts' if we lynched Scum!Fate (which makes Cyan a little more town in my eyes). With the speed of the wagon, and the general lack of resistance to it, Vi (or Nacho, in edge cases) pushing that wagon makes perfect sense.
2. Covered this. Mindset analysis.
3. Not sure anymore why I had Vi/Cyan as not an option, but I have trouble seeing Vi coming out and voting a scumbuddy after D1. Also, they were attacking each other D1 on the basis of 'the other player is bad', which just seems like a really weird thing for two scumbuddies to attack on. If they know the other person is scum, they can find legiimately scummy things to attack, rather than 'being bad'.
4. ... more proof that you're scum. You aren't even thinking. There's a cluster of four players that I believe scum reside in. If two of them flip town, then what does it matter if the next day is LYLO? The remaining two players are scum.
I don't think DYH is expressing paranoia. It's an absolute conviction that you're scum, and he's using the pieces that he knows to fit that world view.
And I can understand where he's coming from. Consider it this way - which is more likely to be the case:
Scum - 3 - Town, Town, Town
Town - 3 - Town, Town, Town
I don't think anyone other than DYH, Iso or KoL ever voted you. So from his perspective, he knows 100% that all three players attacking you were town. With no possible scum also attacking you, despite there being a consistent push the entire day, it makes you even more likely to be scum in his eyes.
And I get the logic.
I just happen to think that the scum team didn't really want to bother with fighting the massive batches of words and sarcasm that would spew forth if more people attacked you.
Probably.
Or you're scum, and the sarcasm has been a deflection method, albeit an exceptionally irritating one.
But I don't think that's the case.
But yes, DYH tunneling and locked in on someone he is sure is scum is a common thing from him as town.
Nope. That's the only thing this game that has happened that makes me think you might be town. It's just a really strong interaction.
WiFOM, I guess? Like, Cyan is aggressive, confident, and slightly arrogant. He's a good player, and I don't mean that as an insult in the least. I was just trying to figure out where this sudden, random humble, conciliatory 'I'm willing to be lynched' thing came from, because while I'm not sure why he'd do it as scum, I can't see him doing it as Town, either. Still not entirely sure what to make of it.
You've been locked into me the whole game for playstyle reasons. I write people off as town, and then readjust later if necessary. It's still possible that I was right about dC, but there's enough town players piling up, and his more recent behavior has been bad enough, that I re-evaluated, and found him lacking.
I don't have extensive experience with Town!Cyan. Checks and Balances as it. The rest is all reputation, and I was struggling to reconcile the Cyan I've seen (and heard about) with the 'yeah, I guess you can lynch me, it might be for the best' humble, almost self-depreciating Cyan I was seeing there. It felt weird, and I wanted to see how he'd respond.
Did you perhaps miss where I said I didn't have much time, and was just throwing out some vote count analysis from my notes? I rambled on a little bit after that from what I intended to, but it wasn't remotely supposed to be a comprehensive post.
But no, reading carefully isn't something scum have to do.
Being dismissive of vote count analysis is adorable, too - can't argue against it, so just dismiss it, and try to discredit me? Good plan.
Won't work.
Let's lynch dC.
Hopefully gonna be back monday but you never know.
---
desCoures. You've got three out of four people from your site selling you out. Your response, please.
---
Voxxicus - 3 - Vierni, Nachomamma8, Llamarble - (L-2)
desCoures - 2 - Voxxicus, Cyan - (L-3)
Cyan - 1 - Cyouni - (L-3)
DYH - 1 - Thor665 - (L-4)
Thor665 - 1 - DYH - (L-4)
Not Voting: desCoures
I screwed up dC's unvote last time somehow.
Film and television production.
Basically I work in the assistant director's department - we organize the set, corral actors, place background, and keep the rest of the crew vaguely focused about what they're supposed to be doing.
Job is a little more up in the air than i thought, but I'm interviewing for it now - if it goes well v/la holds, if not I'll let people know. I am suspicious it will go well because I do an awesome interview.
I did kind of read/skim the new postings.
@Vi - what happened to wanting to push DYH? I feel like the Cy wagon crumbled and all of a sudden you're on Voxx, I thought I was promised DYH...and if it wasn't you it was Nacho...
@Nacho - if it was you, what happened to DYH?
One of you owes me a sheep I think, or a really good explanation of the Voxx wagon. I mean, I vaguely support it, but I support it in a sense of Voxx isn't a town read rather than having the ability to describe him as scum. That's not actually hideous at this stage, but it's not anything to write home about either.
Sadly, this about sums up my meta on MS.
"Thor looks town...but, y'know, maybe we should lynch him anyway"
"What's the case?"
"It's Thor - you can never know."
That said, could you clarify the difference between my play, which has been called tunneled, and DYH's play, which you called tunneled? I feel like you're grasping at straws to protect DYH, personally, and want you to explain why you aren't.
I wouldn't protest a DYH lynch. I just think that I should instead
Unvote: Voxxicus
Vote: desCoures (L-2)
Wear comfortable shoes
Also, I totally just wormed/politicked/interviewed myself into the gig.
...now I have to live in Alabama for a month...
I think Fate was 'the MS scum'
I will still be very impressed if Cyan's scum.
dC/Voxxicus/DYH is a good area to be looking in
I can shoot tonight, but I do not plan to as it will simply deny us a lynch.
I don't plan to shoot tonight because without a doctor, I don't think town has any abilities left that would make my action anything other than a less informed lynch.
It asked me to log in after I typed the first one, so I assumed it hadn't posted.
Could you wipe your read of Vi clean and re-read him? dC is scum, and I'm starting to get more and more sure that Vi is the other scum. Take your time, though, because:
V/LA 2-3 days.
Massive project deadline on the 18th - if the presentation goes well, I could net a sizable bonus.
Good luck!
@Thor - If the signs on the Interstate are missing, don't be surprised. I have secondhand knowledge of locals just taking them.
Apparently random ads do that.
This is not the PR you're looking for, Voxxicus. Too bad.
Splitting this post into two. The latter is responses to Voxxicus and more points as to why his mindset is off for town. I strongly recommend all to read the latter, especially if you actually do lynch me. Especially since I just spent over an hour combing the thread for votes.
@Vierni
The other reason is if someone claims cop or doctor at L-1, some scum that feels they're going down anyway might quickhammer.
My response is that since I'm all but certain 2 out of those 3 are scum, it doesn't make the slightest difference to me what happens. Even if you lynch me, it'll work as a form of PoE - and heck, when I flip town it'll be that much more evidence against Voxxicus.
Let's do a quick recap -
You and Nacho I don't think are scum thanks to the way the Fate wagon happened. Cyouni I don't think is scum because of the entire initial argument between him and Fate, and, after combing the thread, he's absolutely right about him having been on Fate early and consistently. llamarble, as much as his behaviour and reads have been horrible, is unlikely to be scum thanks to his role.
That leaves, Voxxicus, Thor, Cyan, and DYH. I've had a town read of Thor since halfway through day 1, and I feel the way he seemed utterly convinced of Fate being town even in twilight doesn't ring of scum in the least. I can't see Cyan and DYH as scum together - as I told Iso, the two of them choosing to randomly vote each other out of nowhere at a time when no one was paying any attention to either one would be inexplicable for two scumbuddies. That leaves - Voxxicus. Whose contribution has been lacking, who is using questionable and cherry-picked methodology to paint me (and you, for that matter) as scum following our votes on him, and who unilaterally wants llamarble to shoot one of his alleged scum reads tonight (now knowing that llamarble can't take flips into account before shooting) instead of suggesting we use llamarble's shot as a second lynch, which is what townies do here on a regular basis.
As for Cyan and DYH, while Cyan's day 1 looks far worse, DYH's day 2 posts are nothing short of horrible, most especially his sudden scum read of me after not having mentioned me at all for most of the game.
@DYH
Oh, really?
That sounds rather unlike what you said here, which distinctly reads like you disagree with what llamarble said. You know, where llamarble says basically the exact same thing you say here.
And what exactly are the 'typical results', pray tell?
Two things -
Firstly, yes, I poked at her in the early game. Like less than a hundred posts in, because she was doing nothing and then went V/LA. And then when she actually started contributing I was pretty sure she was town. What's inconsistent there?
Likewise, because I had a town read on her after that, I 'harped on Cyan' for his apparently unchanging read of her - especially since, as I noted in my review, he was not, in fact, 'on her case all day long'. What's inconsistent there?
(Answer - nothing is inconsistent. You're making up points as you go along.)
So are we playing what-ifs now? 'What if' there is a scum roleblocker. 'What if' I had some convoluted plan involving said scum roleblocker, when I could have easily exhorted him to shoot Voxxicus instead - or do you think Voxxicus and I are scum together after this whole rigmarole? Those aren't the words of someone looking for scum. Those are the words of someone looking to cast doubt.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Uh huh. Explain why I'm scum, then, given that this is apparently your argument for DYH as town.
In what world would scum ever want to lynch other scum instead of town, even if said other scum were likely to get shot at night? Just going by the numbers that's a horrible losing proposition.
This assertion is additionally ridiculous when you consider that llamarble claimed poisoner, not vig, and was purposely coy about the details of his role. I would and did assume from such a claim that Fate would only die night 2 or day 3. In which case this makes additionally no sense whatsoever for Vierni to do, since you'd get at least one night of Fate using his rolecop ability. Seriously, in what world does mafia like killing off their own PRs early instead of mislynching town?
Also, in that context, how in the world does that crackpot theory work with you having me as scum - me, who wanted llamarble to shoot Fate and no one else, as a de facto second lynch, in post #890, which could only ever work together with DYH's what-ifs as to scum roleblockers and redirectors?
So.... you can't actually explain that at all. And yet you're continuing on as though it's an established fact.
I'd have to be a nine-year old child to believe you.
I dismissed it because it's rubbish. For the first thing, 5-town wagons on town are eminently possible, if the town is scummy enough, and equally possible are wagons on scum with all of said scum's buddies on it. Which is why wagon analysis is helpful, but not exhaustively so. You, on the other hand, presented your 'wagon analysis' as though it were conclusive evidence.
Secondly, your 'wagon analysis' was rubbish for two reasons - the first being the small sample size, and said small sample size being due to your cherry-picking, which is made obvious by where you take the effort to go back and find llamarble's wagon, but not any of the other 5-man wagons this game - and yes, there were others that Fate wasn't on.
The second reason your 'wagon analysis' was rubbish was because it's arbitrary. I was apparently one of your firmest town reads day 1, and you yourself admitted that you had absolutely no behavioural reason to suspect me - yet you have me as scum through 'wagon analysis' while having Nacho and Thor, your 'uncertain town reads' listed in blue on said analysis. Who are you kidding?
There's only one reason, to my mind, that you suddenly want to paint me as scum. I was wrong day 1, and thus you supported me - today I'm right, and you want to shut me up.
--------------------------
Let me take a pause here, and present - every 5-man wagon in this game save Fate's, with some additional comments on when they stopped being 5-man wagons.
1. Iso - Thor, Cyan, Vierni, KoL, Nacho (as of #82)
The original Iso wagon. Fate's not on this one, is he?
2. Cyouni - llamarble, Vierni, Fate, Nacho, Thor (as of #365) - Vierni unvotes following claim.
3. Nacho - Voxxicus, Iso, KoL, Vierni, DYH (as of #408)
Vierni unvotes pretty quickly, even without a claim. Who's the scum here, Voxxicus?
4. Nacho - Voxxicus, Iso, KoL, DYH, Cyan (as of #428)
Cyan votes to put Nacho back at L-2, and then unvotes following Nacho's follow-up posts. I find it very interesting that it's two town, Cyan, Voxxicus, and DYH on this wagon. Who's the scum here, Voxxicus?
5. KoL - llamarble, Cyan, Vierni, Fate (for completion's sake - KoL claimed after this)
Forgot to note the post number, since it never hit 5 votes.
6. llamarble - me, KoL, Iso, Cyouni, Voxxicus (as of #799)
Voxxicus unvotes and votes Iso after first 'wanting flavour' then swallowing it immediately. In a game where we've been told flavourgaming won't work. Feh.
7. Iso - Thor, Fate, Cyan, Voxxicus, llamarble (as of #821)
Oh hey, I see Voxxicus again. And Fate as well, of course, but Voxxicus as well.
8. Iso - Thor, Fate, Cyan, Voxxicus, llamarble, Vierni (as of #874) Vierni soon unvotes to vote Fate instead. Inexplicable to my mind for scum. llamarble soon unvotes to follow Vierni onto Fate.
9. Iso - Thor, Fate, Cyan, Voxxicus, me (as of #890)
Iso was the largest wagon, and I was leaving for the weekend. Note I say Fate and no one else should be shot.
Even removing '5-man wagons that Fate was on', it's exceedingly clear that Voxxicus cherry-picked the wagons he wanted, leaving out most notably 3, and 4. Which, I posit, he left out because he and his last scumbuddy are on them.
@Voxxicus, part 2
This is laughable at best. If Fate was bussed, Vierni's vote makes the least sense of all - even Nacho is more likely to be scum than she is. Her additional vote turned Iso as the lynch from a virtual certainty into one of two choices. And it would have to be one of the most daring gambits I've seen since Harry Potter Mafia's mason gambit for her to give up a mislynch to lynch a scumbuddy.
And, again, this whole krap logick line of reasoning doesn't mesh at all with you having me - the person that wanted llamarble to shoot Fate - as scum at all, yet you still have me and Vierni as a possible scum pairing.
Fair enough, except where the exact same argument can apply to me, yet you have me as scum. Double standards much?
Still no explanation for Vi/Cyan not being an option, yet continuing to treat it as fact. Heh.
Considering I think you're scum, it's a pretty valid concern from where I'm standing. Especially considering that, even if you want llamarble to fire, you're not asking for input from the town as to how to use his shot as a second lynch, which would be what I would expect any MtGS town to first consider, but instead to shoot one of a group of four that you selected based on arbitrary reasoning, of which I think 2 are town and know 1 is town.
Additionally so now that you have Nacho and Thor as 'uncertain town reads'. That's an obvious platform to getting one of them lynched on day 3 for the win.
Did you perhaps miss where I said I didn't have much time, and was just throwing out some vote count analysis from my notes? I rambled on a little bit after that from what I intended to, but it wasn't remotely supposed to be a comprehensive post.
But no, reading carefully isn't something scum have to do.
Being dismissive of vote count analysis is adorable, too - can't argue against it, so just dismiss it, and try to discredit me? Good plan.
Won't work.
Let's lynch dC.[/QUOTE]
You expect me to believe you 'didn't have time' and yet combed back through to find the cherry-picked 5-man wagons you wanted? Or perhaps you're going to say that you had those in your notes before and just put them up... which makes your assertion in this that you been 'picking through and trying find 5-man wagons that Fate wasn't on' all the more laughable for how obvious it makes your carefully slanted selection. Heck, that post is all the more ridiculous for how you make all manner of behavioural insinuations against Vierni... then turn around and vote me with nothing more than a sheer paucity of behavioural reasoning. Seriously, who do you think you're kidding?
-------------
tl;dr -
1. Voxxicus is inconsistent and arbitrary in his reads, especially re: me and DYH.
2. Voxxicus has frankly ridiculous arguments to attempt to keep Vierni as a possible lynch/kill, that requires scum-Vierni to want to kill off one of her team's own PRs early instead of mislynching town.
3. Voxxicus wants llamarble to fire unilaterally instead of being a second lynch or not firing at all. Note that if we lynch town and kill town we're at LyLo, and he's clearly hedged his bets for an opening to lynch Thor or Nacho.
4. Voxxicus cherry-picks his wagons for analysis, and his behavioural analysis (especially re: possible scum pairs) is utterly lacking.
Voxxicus is blatantly dishonest scum, and needs to die. Lynch him today, kill him tonight, or lynch him tomorrow after lynching me and I flip town. It makes no difference to me. I'm 90% certain that if Voxxicus, DYH, and Cyan die (probably in that order) town wins. And I obviously don't need to be alive for that to happen.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.