Fate was literally screaming at me yesterday to leave Iso alone and help lynch Cy at a point where it would have been quite easy for him to get with the Iso wagon because he'd been part of it already once before (and went there again). I do not see that as a likely bus action at that stage of the game.
I am going to go back and check this. If it's true, I agree with Thor that this make Cyouni incredibly unlikely to be scum.
I think that's a remarkable overstatement.
I would also like to note that Cyouni preferred a Fate wagon "by a vast margin" (938), but was unwilling to place the L-1 vote on Fate. It would seem that if he vastly preferred a Fate lynch, he would have been better served by placing his vote immediately instead of waiting to hammer, thereby making it that much more certain that Fate would be the deadline lynch. Instead he left an opening for Fate to not get lynched if the will of the crowd decided Iso should die.
--
Question. What is the significance of people asking if Llamarble has multiple shots? I appreciate the notion of a Mafia 1xVig being rare but a Mafia 2xVig being unheard of, but "Basic" has a stranger meaning than I initially expected if Mafia 1xVig is noticeably common to start with.
Because he needed to be bussing at that stage?
Tell me more.
In other random news - am I the only one still clicking on Smalltown Swap half the time? Seriously, who decided to name that game and this one so similar - I hate you.
No, I've clicked on that game thread quite a few times myself, unfortunately.
I think that there is a fair argument that scum always should be looking to bus early in the game. I'll go over the context of that conversation and see what AF had to say.
Because he needed to be bussing at that stage?
Tell me more.
You're assuming Fate only does necessary things.
---
I only have a tab/bookmark open to this thread, so etc.
My comment is instead that this game is now set to chiptune music. The source should only surprise you insofar as it took me this long to play it.
I'll admit I do tend to start most debates with the presumption the other people involved are sane.
But I think it's a valid point here - I was still hard pushing Iso, a town player. I think there was another wagon bubbling around at the same time (me? maybe Nacho?) I forget and am too lazy to look it up. But at that point he is going to try to scream me off a tunnel on town in order to help him bus a scumbuddy?
It just doesn't make a lot of sense, he could have simply vaguely raged and accomplished the purpose of hard bussing without actually working to put Cyourni scum down the pipes.
It makes decent sense if it's another town wagon though, because then he'd be pretty happy to get that lynch through and leave me with Iso again today, which is pure win/win for the scumteam.
What makes you think that's all bussing action even still?
I'll give you some points to Cyourni's hesitance at deadline, but it's not like he'd felt like a whirling dervish of proactive aggression up to that point, so it feels in line with his soft play, yeah?
Do you have any particular reason you don't want to lynch DYH instead?
I'll admit my case on him is 50% 'Thor has a town PM' but, hey, that's a sexy case anyway, and his reaction to the vote bespeaks someone whose reads were totally unaffected by any flips - which screams scum to my mind considering we had three of them.
Do you have any particular reason you don't want to lynch DYH instead?
I'll admit my case on him is 50% 'Thor has a town PM' but, hey, that's a sexy case anyway, and his reaction to the vote bespeaks someone whose reads were totally unaffected by any flips - which screams scum to my mind considering we had three of them.
Hmm. Let's review.
My post today:
Quote from DYH »
I can already tell this is going to be another annoying day.
Vote: Thor
Gee, I wonder why you didn't want to vote for Fate?
So yes, that statement of yours is so obviously true.
Next up, let's cover those flips, shall we?
Iso - town - just as I read - and oh, wanted you dead.
Kami - town - wanted you dead.
Fate - whom you refused to vote - scum.
Huh, seems like you kinda made my case for me, there, Thor.
No, because if you were actually analyzing the deaths you would have assessed Fate and looked for partner interactions.
Instead you took something that was superficially scummy, added in come OMGUS, and want to pretend like it's an actual case and you're scumhunting. I have some rope that would like to show you how it's actually done.
When you defend your scumhunting and how it's not fake at all and that you did look over Fate for partner interactions please also provide that still needed explanation of the differences between snark and sarcasm - since that was a big part of your case on me yesterday and wasn't sturm and drang I'm sure it will be easy to provide.
Fate was literally screaming at me yesterday to leave Iso alone and help lynch Cy at a point where it would have been quite easy for him to get with the Iso wagon because he'd been part of it already once before (and went there again). I do not see that as a likely bus action at that stage of the game.
I am going to go back and check this. If it's true, I agree with Thor that this make Cyouni incredibly unlikely to be scum.
I think that's a remarkable overstatement.
I would also like to note that Cyouni preferred a Fate wagon "by a vast margin" (938), but was unwilling to place the L-1 vote on Fate. It would seem that if he vastly preferred a Fate lynch, he would have been better served by placing his vote immediately instead of waiting to hammer, thereby making it that much more certain that Fate would be the deadline lynch. Instead he left an opening for Fate to not get lynched if the will of the crowd decided Iso should die.
Regarding not voting, I wanted to hold off until as late as possible to get as much information in thread as possible, and given the timeframe, an accidental hammer was quite possible.
Regarding the "opening for Fate to not get lynched", the only person I realistically saw swapping from Iso to Fate was Voxxicus, given the timeframe. Far more likely to see a shift in the other direction.
Question. What is the significance of people asking if Llamarble has multiple shots? I appreciate the notion of a Mafia 1xVig being rare but a Mafia 2xVig being unheard of, but "Basic" has a stranger meaning than I initially expected if Mafia 1xVig is noticeably common to start with.
I recall seeing a 1xVig before. It's not common, but I'm not discounting the possibility.
Just going to warn you now that I've seen it miss posts before. Use at your own risk.
Here's the reference:
"I set an instant email subscription on the thread since I wouldn't have access to a computer until morning (my time). I had my phone and I expected email alerts to let me know if I needed to phone post anything. I got an email about Asenion's post at 4:25 PM (my time again) and no other email. I also miscounted the votes (counted Tare twice) and thought Asenion got six votes leaving the mystery of whether I fired open or not. I never bothered to check in before I went to bed because I thought no posts since no email. Last time I'll ever depend on the forum software. :("
Here's all the posts Fate's made, excluding those that relate solely to a dead person or probable jokes. They're listed in reverse order, though three in the middle were screwed up because I couldn't wait for my browser to load them properly.
No one's going toe to toe with me in this game DGB.
I wish there was something to get excited about just as you but this games feel is just general slow manipulation by the scumteam who refuse to be riled up by anything I do, which is why it points pretty clearly to not-nacho/Marble/Thor
Llamarble's mapping out of scum teams from a votecount without a single flipped player is a stinking pile of composting horse manure.
Combine this rot to the lament of "I have too few strong reads to calibrate my other reads off of" and we have Llamarble scum.
Yes that's right. Llamarble is playing the "I have no strong reads" card and AT THE SAME time speculating about scum teams on 100% mystery votecounts.
I apologize to everyone for arguing Llamarble-town earlier. I now see the error of my ways.
LOL HERE WE GO
Wow the lengths you're going for this Thor mislynch.
Is Cyouni THAT big of a PR?
That wagon has stalled through imaginary mud, with no one actually giving me reasons WHY CYOUNI IS TOWN just more DISTRACTIONA ND HEY LOOK AT THIS GUY WITH THIS CASE.
Like holy **** I no I don't have that much time for mafia these days but do I have to post every day to steer this town in the right direction?
Do you guys prefer desperation deadline wagons here?
No, but I don't like wagons just for the sake of a wagon, either, and that's what the Iso and Cyouni wagons have both felt like, to me.
I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that both were heavily fueled by MS players.
Or on the Cyouni wagon's case, only fueled by MS players.
When I have an even remotely strong town read on one of five people on a wagon, I'm going to deem it a very bad wagon. Nacho and Fate are both highly likely scum, and them being the 'bulk' in the middle of the wagon bothers me.
Cyouni's claimed VT at L-2, and he'll probably be the lynch due to that, but I think he's probably town at this point. The lack of a counter-wagon push is telling - scum are lurking the day out and letting the VT lynch happen. My scum team guess is still Nacho, Fate and DYH.
Kami still makes my skin crawl, but as I like the support for Nacho, whatever, I'll sort that out later.
"LACK OF COUNTERWAGON MAKES ME UNEASY"
->
"LETS WAGON NACHOTOWN INSTEAD"
I could not post for multiple days.
People are still too scared to grapefruit up and actually push a wagon for reals.
Indeed, all we are doing is standing around and declaring town reads...gosh, that is magical. I am happy you have a town read. Vote in the remainder somewhere pl0x.
Four players are not voting.
Half of them think I am scum, and could by the massive power of two people make one of the biggest wagons...and don't.
What is this gak?
I am going to start supporting any wagon that is big if other people cannot manage to, y'know, puzzle out the concept of using their vote and not being scummy.
Of course, maybe here expressing opinions is scummy - much like ever reacting in any way is.
Derp.
I SEE A CONSIDERABLE LACK OF CYOUNI VOTE IN THIS POST
I'm judging you because you're scum because of it, that's part of the game.
The difference between my low activity this game and your failure to follow through on something is just that:
I've made no false pretenses that I AM going to start "contributing" more frequently or more in depthly. I've flat out said I've had a hard time getting my head into this game and getting my teeth into somethign
YOU have said "oh wow look how townie im going to be and all these gamse im going to read!" but it jsut felt fake as ****, the sort of promise I KNEW you weren't going to follow through with.
Oh? I have seven-or-so games to read through, I specify I'm still reading them (because, you know, I don't have infinite time on my hands), and you're trying to pull that?
I called you out on it, and wow, excuses? Deflecting back to me about some half-assed Vi read of mine from 20 pages ago (I'm not voting Vi, which should show how strongly I ever felt about that read anyway)?
I know dodge is nice key word to sling around when trying to smear someone, but you're really just embarassing yourself.
I'm waiting for the MS crew to wake up because MTGS is just dick slappign around with eachother saying things like "Oh thats so unlike town you!" "NO its not what do you know about me!?"
So remind me.
You were voting Vi for a pretty significant time.
You talked so much about how you thought he (?) was scum.
You claimed to have backed it up and talked about it yesterday.
Yet you obviously cannot justify any of that.
"Some half-assed read"? You just said you were talking about why you thought Vi was scum. I question you on that, and your reaction is to instantly call it "some half-assed read".
You've been calling Vi scum since post #90. Post #130, #142, #163, (sort of) #189, and (apparently) #285 all have notes of it.
Furthermore, you were voting Vi (or attempting to, at least) until you decided to vote Iso based off some "bus" theory. And you kept calling Vi scum until I called you out on your reasons.
Yet suddenly, after all that, after you went "I told you already what my reasons were", after that's all you've been doing the whole game, it's just "some half-assed read"?
No. If so, you would have said that earlier. Your answer to me wouldn't have been "I wrote it last night", it would have been something like "it was a throwaway read I made 20 pages ago". You're just completely unable to give any reason for it, and trying to wave it away with this. Vote Aggressive_Fate.
LOL YES
THIS IS JUST WHAT I NEEDED.
Ill say it again: PLEASE TELL US YOUR IMPRESSIONS OF THOSE GAMES YOURE READING.
And here you are STILL harping on that Vi read. A vote made without even reading the game kept until I found something better. You can nitpick my posts all you want but it remains that I never SERIOUSLY made a case on Vi and later retro-explained that my reasons were independent of the game state (which Nacho even saw correctly BEFORE I posted it), and that my calling him scum was basically just to get a rise out of him and TRY to read him (to which he never reacted, which again tells me ****ING NOTHING VI)
I'm judging you because you're scum because of it, that's part of the game.
The difference between my low activity this game and your failure to follow through on something is just that:
I've made no false pretenses that I AM going to start "contributing" more frequently or more in depthly. I've flat out said I've had a hard time getting my head into this game and getting my teeth into somethign
YOU have said "oh wow look how townie im going to be and all these gamse im going to read!" but it jsut felt fake as ****, the sort of promise I KNEW you weren't going to follow through with.
I called you out on it, and wow, excuses? Deflecting back to me about some half-assed Vi read of mine from 20 pages ago (I'm not voting Vi, which should show how strongly I ever felt about that read anyway)?
I know dodge is nice key word to sling around when trying to smear someone, but you're really just embarassing yourself.
I'm waiting for the MS crew to wake up because MTGS is just dick slappign around with eachother saying things like "Oh thats so unlike town you!" "NO its not what do you know about me!?"
The only things that have stuck out to me are ISO's "madscum" reaction to his wagon while also feigning casualness behind his "claim" and also Vi's snarky interaction with him (which is pretty par for the course regardless of what Vi is).
Remind me why you think Vi's scum again, given this?
I meant you general impressions of those games you were "OH SO EXCITED TY FOR LINKS" to read. Read fake as **** to me and OH LOOK you didn't read a single page DID YOU?
I explained why I thgouht Vi was scum last night too. So this is more empty posting "you're ignoring me u is scum let me post about post"
I mean seriously Vi do you HAVE to go out of your way to be so insufferable? Nacho is right about my read on you, its got **** to do with ISO (though trying to link you comes from my eagerness for you to be scum)
you go out of your way to be as ****ing insufferable as possible i swear.
I feel like finding a game where we were both in and shoving it in your face because i'm sure that it went more in my favor than yours
that's a fair vote Nacho, I don't feel like I've really been able to get into this game.
Most of the MS crew stand out as town, with DGb being inscrtutable and you having too much swag to read d1.
The only things that have stuck out to me are ISO's "madscum" reaction to his wagon while also feigning casualness behind his "claim" and also Vi's snarky interaction with him (which is pretty par for the course regardless of what Vi is).
I honestly don't think I have a single read on any other mtgs players, all the "cy" names that I don't recognize have blurred together so far.
Isn't your Vi scum case hinged on how she's reacting to presumed buddy Iso?
Don't start pulling the MtG crowd spiel of 'Player A suspects Player B, A is scummy for how they're pushing B who is town, B is townish because A is scum pushing them Catch-twenty-derp thing.
whoa whoa whoa did Vi just get cold feet on his bus?
Vote: ISO FULL ENGINES GO
The people he was mainly declaring town were Thor, Nacho, and Llamarble. He took every spare opportunity he had to do so.
The people he was declaring scum were me and two dead people.
Voxxicus was mentioned once as my buddy.
Cyan was mentioned once (as town) and promptly forgotten.
desCoures and DYH weren't mentioned.
He declared Vi to be scum until questioned, then promptly went back on it, retracting his opinion. He eventually declared Vi to be town at the end.
The problem is that his complete lack of reasons for anything unrelated to me makes this difficult. The only reason he gave was "scumteam refuses to be riled up by anything I do", citing Nacho, Thor and Llamarble as town as a result. But that doesn't make sense.
The most that really comes out of him is in relation to Nacho and Vi.
His whole thing regarding Vi reads as a spot for him to park "suspicion" until he found something better to do. He didn't even bother coming up with a reason - he obviously never expected to be questioned on it. Not sure on this one. It fits what scum would want to do to a buddy (he gets to say "I was suspicious of him, see" in the case that buddy dies), but I'd like to think that he'd at least come up with a reason in that case.
His reaction to Nacho's vote makes Nacho even more town. The whole "that's a fair vote" makes no sense if it's addressed to a scumbuddy. It's appeasement. The whole post has a conciliatory tone.
There's an odd point where he's screaming at Thor to vote me. However, looking back for comparisons, Cyan expressed agreement, as well as suspicion regarding me, but never acted on it. (A check also tells me Cyan wasn't voting anyone at that time.) Fate's complete lack of reaction to Cyan is off, given that. It's not the site difference - Fate shows no sign of avoiding Iso. It's even more off when you consider that Thor wasn't even expressing suspicion of me in that post.
After his post calling Voxxicus my buddy, Fate never mentions him again.
I'd say his scumbuddies are {Cyan/Thor}, {Voxxicus/DYH/desCoures/Vierni}.
I'll look over the first set tomorrow.
Of the last set, I'd say Voxxicus, DYH, Vierni, dC in that order.
Do you have any particular reason you don't want to lynch DYH instead?
Not really.
In re: Cyouni - You're still assuming that Fate wasn't trying to distance. In addition, I think you're putting too much stock in Fate yelling at you when that's his default tone of text.
--
Quote from "Cyouni 1010" »
1) Regarding not voting, I wanted to hold off until as late as possible to get as much information in thread as possible, and given the timeframe, an accidental hammer was quite possible.
2) Regarding the "opening for Fate to not get lynched", the only person I realistically saw swapping from Iso to Fate was Voxxicus, given the timeframe. Far more likely to see a shift in the other direction.
1) With mere hours before the deadline, I think this is a weak excuse.
2) This actually makes my objection more relevant.
Do you have any particular reason you don't want to lynch DYH instead?
Not really.
In re: Cyouni - You're still assuming that Fate wasn't trying to distance. In addition, I think you're putting too much stock in Fate yelling at you when that's his default tone of text.
In general, yes.
Except it *wasn't* in this game - meaning there was greater emphasis there than what he was pushing around most of the time.
It's like saying 'Sarcasm is how Thor types, so the level of sarcasm he had towards Iso has no meaning to his play here' except that if you compare the level I had towards him or Cyouni (my two prime pushes yesterday) it's pretty ruddy apparent which push I was more excited about no matter what I or anyone else may say to the contrary, because I was clearly more emotionally and strongly invested in the one than the other.
I think Fate was more eager for a Cyouni lynch at that poit than he ever was for an Iso lynch - that makes it feel un-buss like since, strategically, that would be a bad stance to take at that point with a scumbuddy. I don't think it's a runaway case of win wrapped in bacon, but it's certainly a solid point and I'm not sure why you're dismissing it to the point you want to lynch Cyouni for being a buddy since your connection between them is no less tenuous than my logic for separating them.
Phone posting. The fact Thor just tried to label my vote on him as "OMGUS" solidifies my initial reaction - that he was trying to preemptively get in front of the last person alive who was actively trying to get him lynched. This is absolutely laughable - he's scum and he needs to die.
Do you have any particular reason you don't want to lynch DYH instead?
Not really.
In re: Cyouni - You're still assuming that Fate wasn't trying to distance. In addition, I think you're putting too much stock in Fate yelling at you when that's his default tone of text.
Not really - it's his default tone, but there can be differences within that.
I'm judging you because you're scum because of it, that's part of the game.
The difference between my low activity this game and your failure to follow through on something is just that:
I've made no false pretenses that I AM going to start "contributing" more frequently or more in depthly. I've flat out said I've had a hard time getting my head into this game and getting my teeth into somethign
YOU have said "oh wow look how townie im going to be and all these gamse im going to read!" but it jsut felt fake as ****, the sort of promise I KNEW you weren't going to follow through with.
Oh? I have seven-or-so games to read through, I specify I'm still reading them (because, you know, I don't have infinite time on my hands), and you're trying to pull that?
I called you out on it, and wow, excuses? Deflecting back to me about some half-assed Vi read of mine from 20 pages ago (I'm not voting Vi, which should show how strongly I ever felt about that read anyway)?
I know dodge is nice key word to sling around when trying to smear someone, but you're really just embarassing yourself.
I'm waiting for the MS crew to wake up because MTGS is just dick slappign around with eachother saying things like "Oh thats so unlike town you!" "NO its not what do you know about me!?"
So remind me.
You were voting Vi for a pretty significant time.
You talked so much about how you thought he (?) was scum.
You claimed to have backed it up and talked about it yesterday.
Yet you obviously cannot justify any of that.
"Some half-assed read"? You just said you were talking about why you thought Vi was scum. I question you on that, and your reaction is to instantly call it "some half-assed read".
You've been calling Vi scum since post #90. Post #130, #142, #163, (sort of) #189, and (apparently) #285 all have notes of it.
Furthermore, you were voting Vi (or attempting to, at least) until you decided to vote Iso based off some "bus" theory. And you kept calling Vi scum until I called you out on your reasons.
Yet suddenly, after all that, after you went "I told you already what my reasons were", after that's all you've been doing the whole game, it's just "some half-assed read"?
No. If so, you would have said that earlier. Your answer to me wouldn't have been "I wrote it last night", it would have been something like "it was a throwaway read I made 20 pages ago". You're just completely unable to give any reason for it, and trying to wave it away with this. Vote Aggressive_Fate.
LOL YES
THIS IS JUST WHAT I NEEDED.
Ill say it again: PLEASE TELL US YOUR IMPRESSIONS OF THOSE GAMES YOURE READING.
And here you are STILL harping on that Vi read. A vote made without even reading the game kept until I found something better. You can nitpick my posts all you want but it remains that I never SERIOUSLY made a case on Vi and later retro-explained that my reasons were independent of the game state (which Nacho even saw correctly BEFORE I posted it), and that my calling him scum was basically just to get a rise out of him and TRY to read him (to which he never reacted, which again tells me ****ING NOTHING VI)
I could not post for multiple days.
People are still too scared to grapefruit up and actually push a wagon for reals.
Indeed, all we are doing is standing around and declaring town reads...gosh, that is magical. I am happy you have a town read. Vote in the remainder somewhere pl0x.
Four players are not voting.
Half of them think I am scum, and could by the massive power of two people make one of the biggest wagons...and don't.
What is this gak?
I am going to start supporting any wagon that is big if other people cannot manage to, y'know, puzzle out the concept of using their vote and not being scummy.
Of course, maybe here expressing opinions is scummy - much like ever reacting in any way is.
Derp.
I SEE A CONSIDERABLE LACK OF CYOUNI VOTE IN THIS POST
Do you guys prefer desperation deadline wagons here?
No, but I don't like wagons just for the sake of a wagon, either, and that's what the Iso and Cyouni wagons have both felt like, to me.
I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that both were heavily fueled by MS players.
Or on the Cyouni wagon's case, only fueled by MS players.
When I have an even remotely strong town read on one of five people on a wagon, I'm going to deem it a very bad wagon. Nacho and Fate are both highly likely scum, and them being the 'bulk' in the middle of the wagon bothers me.
Cyouni's claimed VT at L-2, and he'll probably be the lynch due to that, but I think he's probably town at this point. The lack of a counter-wagon push is telling - scum are lurking the day out and letting the VT lynch happen. My scum team guess is still Nacho, Fate and DYH.
Kami still makes my skin crawl, but as I like the support for Nacho, whatever, I'll sort that out later.
"LACK OF COUNTERWAGON MAKES ME UNEASY"
->
"LETS WAGON NACHOTOWN INSTEAD"
Llamarble's mapping out of scum teams from a votecount without a single flipped player is a stinking pile of composting horse manure.
Combine this rot to the lament of "I have too few strong reads to calibrate my other reads off of" and we have Llamarble scum.
Yes that's right. Llamarble is playing the "I have no strong reads" card and AT THE SAME time speculating about scum teams on 100% mystery votecounts.
I apologize to everyone for arguing Llamarble-town earlier. I now see the error of my ways.
LOL HERE WE GO
Wow the lengths you're going for this Thor mislynch.
Is Cyouni THAT big of a PR?
That wagon has stalled through imaginary mud, with no one actually giving me reasons WHY CYOUNI IS TOWN just more DISTRACTIONA ND HEY LOOK AT THIS GUY WITH THIS CASE.
Like holy **** I no I don't have that much time for mafia these days but do I have to post every day to steer this town in the right direction?
that's a fair vote Nacho, I don't feel like I've really been able to get into this game.
Most of the MS crew stand out as town, with DGb being inscrtutable and you having too much swag to read d1.
The only things that have stuck out to me are ISO's "madscum" reaction to his wagon while also feigning casualness behind his "claim" and also Vi's snarky interaction with him (which is pretty par for the course regardless of what Vi is).
I honestly don't think I have a single read on any other mtgs players, all the "cy" names that I don't recognize have blurred together so far.
1) Regarding not voting, I wanted to hold off until as late as possible to get as much information in thread as possible, and given the timeframe, an accidental hammer was quite possible.
2) Regarding the "opening for Fate to not get lynched", the only person I realistically saw swapping from Iso to Fate was Voxxicus, given the timeframe. Far more likely to see a shift in the other direction.
1) With mere hours before the deadline, I think this is a weak excuse.
2) This actually makes my objection more relevant.
1) I don't like pointless chances.
2) The only person who was realistically going to shift from Iso -> Fate in time was Voxxicus. I wasn't going to bet the chance of having a no-lynch on that.
Phone posting. The fact Thor just tried to label my vote on him as "OMGUS" solidifies my initial reaction - that he was trying to preemptively get in front of the last person alive who was actively trying to get him lynched. This is absolutely laughable - he's scum and he needs to die.
As long as we ignore that Cyouni is right there and I'm also defending him then, yes, you are absolutely correct.
Brilliant.
Oh, wait, no, the other thing...opposite like.
Was the above sarcasm or snark?
Who knows? DYH just makes up the difference to pretend he's scumhunting.
Except Cyouni wasn't actively trying to get you lynched. That train was me, Iso, and KoL. His "Thor's probably scum, I have to check" isn't exactly the same thing as voting you all game long.
And of course my version of utilizing the flips to futher cement my thoughts of you being scum doesn't work for you. Shocking. Calling my vote on you OMGUS is hysterical - and scummy - as I noted above, and the flips are all out of favor for you. You'll have to pardon me for not changing my stance any.
I'm not in the mood to get caught up in a semantics debate about your behavior, but it's a pretty obvious shift as I've covered before. You can even read about it here and here.
Core issue: you defended against Kami in a different manner than you defended against me and Iso. You thought you could just bully us off, but Kami is familiar with you, and that tactic wasn't going to work. Also, the self-awareness of your own playstyle; manufacturing an image is a thing.
The continued "is this snark or sarcasm?" cracks - as Iso and I pointed out - just come off as 'trying too hard'. And an attempt to strawman/discredit the argument at hand.
So we agree that your advanced notion of snark vs. sarcasm is bollocks?
Cool.
And now Cyourni wasn't pushing me "enough" to qualify for the list of people I had to make dead or attack...riiiiight. Gosh, it's amazing how everything just slides into place for scum Thor as long as we rule out the parts that don't agree with the theory case.
So now the issue is how I "defended differently" evidence of this different defense is...? Because DYH said so, as far as I can grok - because up until now your explanation was the snark vs. sarcasm thing which you're now avoiding justifying (presumably because you realize it's indefensible and/or were making gak up and hoping it would smell sweet on the other side)
I didn't defend differently. I called her case on my nonsensical and mocked her for it.
That's what I did to Iso as well.
It's what I did to you for a third.
Heck, DGB's issue with me raised from a belief that I was bullying her, and now you want to say that somehow I decided not to bully her. Awesome, at least one of your cases is proven to be as derpy as I said it was, now it's only a hop, skip, and a jump away to full sanity when everyone will notice I was right about both.
Finally you actually toss self-awareness of my playstyle at me...when earlier when Iso noted self awareness you seemed to love that. Hint: everyone is aware of their playstyle...that's called having a working brain. As an additional addendum, I didn't actually change my playstyle via my self awareness, so...yeah, brilliant scumtell. Here's my new case on you, you're posting in the game thread - it's a thing....that makes just as much sense as your case.
I also like how hung up you are on me pulling out the acronym on you. It makes me want to lynch you more. Pretty soon everyone else will notice that Cyourni doesn't actually look that scummy, and then we'll lynch you and I'll dance about on your grave. It'll be a fun date.
I don't think Cyouni makes sense as a scumbuddy the way Fate was talking about the slot. That looks like a chosen mislynch for the day to me.
Two people came in and were voting Cyouni. You say it's the 'chosen mislynch' for the day. Which of them is the scum pushing the mislynch, then? You say that, and then vote...DYH.
The logic doesn't mesh, at all. You think Cyouni is town, you think scum are pushing the lynch on him, but you aren't making any attempt to determine the alignment of Vi/Nacho - who are the only people voting/pushing for that lynch.
I don't think Cyouni makes sense as a scumbuddy the way Fate was talking about the slot. That looks like a chosen mislynch for the day to me.
Two people came in and were voting Cyouni. You say it's the 'chosen mislynch' for the day. Which of them is the scum pushing the mislynch, then? You say that, and then vote...DYH.
The logic doesn't mesh, at all. You think Cyouni is town, you think scum are pushing the lynch on him, but you aren't making any attempt to determine the alignment of Vi/Nacho - who are the only people voting/pushing for that lynch.
Reconcile this.
This seems like the best post I've seen all game. I'm greatly looking forward to seeing it answered.
I think for the time being I'm going to go back to my previous conclusion in re: Cyouni.
Unvote: Cyouni
Vote: Voxxicus (L-3)
This vote seems pretty bad. How does your 'previous conclusion re: Cyouni' result in you voting for Voxxicus?
I frustratingly refuse to answer this question and instead pose a counterpoint.
Quote from "Cyan 994" »
I found(and still do) Thor and Vierni to be thoroughly town,
I wouldn't know it reading this page.
But aside from asking if you have strong reads at all, I'd like to redirect your attention here.
Quote from "Cyan 994" »
I'm not convinced that any scum was going to leave themself sitting on Iso's wagon once it became completely obvious that AF was getting lynched(yes yes, I get the irony of me making this statement). I certainly don't think that this is sufficient valid reasoning for voting Voxxicus.
Given the conversation with Cyouni just now, it seems that Fate wasn't the obvious lynch in that last-minute standoff. If anything, the only time that it was obvious that Fate was going to be the lynch was when you yourself cast your Fate vote - at L-1, and he was then hammered by someone who wasn't on the Iso wagon to start with.
This mindset suggests that you viewed Fate as a sinking ship, which explains why you were willing to vote him in a situation where sticking to your Iso vote would have ensured that Iso would have been the lynch.
No, I am voting him because we are masons together and I vaguely hate everyone in this game.
No posts I have made at all today include any thoughts about why I think he is worthy of my vote.
Are you serious with this? I mean, I love the Socratic method as much as the next guy, but...seriously?
I mean, I even explained the core of my case *this game day*
Which is like, what, 4 pages long, 3?
At least pretend to try to work a bit, yeah? I'm made fun of on MS for being so lazy and here I feel like one of the major and willing workhorses. It's not a happy-go-dappy feeling.
@Vierni: I feel like I already assessed the situation that you are referring to, yesterday in the following post"
Quote from Me »
Sigh. Looking at the vote counts, the claimed Vig and claimed Doc are voting for AF, and are from his site. DYH has also strongly implied a power role and is voting him as well.
And on the flip-side, AF is one of the people voting Iso.
Maybe I've been wrong all along. Unvote, Vote AF
I wouldn't know it reading this page.
Things change?
But aside from asking if you have strong reads at all, I'd like to redirect your attention here.
You're still my leading town candidate, but not much beyond that. llamarble is clearly town, but that's not really a 'read'.
Alright, reading it from that perspective makes sense.
See, I re-read overnight and my read on DYH nearly reversed. He's probably my strongest town read, non-claim edition at the moment.
Combining that with Iso and KoL flipping town, and Thor was something I wanted to sort out.
But he's probbbably town?
I keep re-reading the end of D1, and I have so much trouble seeing that coming from scum who is also scum with Fate. It reads like he genuinely believes it was a flashwagon on town, despite his reads not really meshing with that perception.
Nacho is also probably town - reading back over the Fate/Nacho interactions, Fate addressed a vote on him by Nacho as a 'fair vote', which I can't read as any way other than scum on town appeasement.
Taking that into consideration, that leaves four names for two scum to reside in:
Vierni
Cyouni
desCoures
Cyan
I would like to lynch one and have Llamarble poison another.
With luck, both hit scum, and we win.
Vierni and Cyan are not scum together.
Vierni and Cyouni are (probably) not scum together.
I'll try to find the interaction that made me so sure Vi/Cyan wasn't a thing, in my notes. I just have it listed as "Vi/Cyan confirmed not scumbuddies. Cyan probbbaby not scum at all"
...right. Finally finished going through all of Fate, Cyouni, DYH, Voxxicus, and Cyan.
Fate's posts were more or less exactly as Cyouni presented them. Those, and Cyouni's posts reminded me that the entire reason I began to be suspicious of Fate and think better of Cyouni yesterday was because of the skirmish between Fate and Cyouni. I'm with Thor on this one. Fate and Cyouni together as scum doesn't make sense.
DYH's posts were the least informative. Most of his day 1 was spent in conflict with Thor, and then with Cyan. Fate was mentioned exactly once - in a throwaway reference to 'not liking his string of posts' very early on, and then never again right up to the point DYH votes him, apparently for no reason other than that he has Iso as town, which does fit the mold of carefully ignoring one's scumbuddy. Contrary to what I'd thought before, though, this was vote no. 4 on the Fate wagon - a scum-DYH might have arguably seen the tide turning against Fate and decided to bus, but this was still a point at which a vote on Iso would have been justified, even with a town read on him. His interactions with Fate, then, are inconclusive.
tl;dr version, DYH:-
- mostly vs. Thor and Cyan
- barely mentioned Fate prior to voting him
+ was vote no. 4, at a time when voting Iso might have been justified
= inconclusive
Voxxicus isn't much better in that regard. Unlike DYH, Voxxicus did mention Fate on occasion, and always had him near the bottom of his lists... but in fact spent all of his time pursuing Nacho, KoL, and then llamarble. His work-related V/LA messes things up a bit, as we are missing his initial reactions to a number of arguments. In his favour, he did call for llamarble to shoot Fate. He did, however, say this knowing that he was one of llamarble's mentioned preferences to shoot, and did seem rather interested in when exactly Fate would die (and yes, I say this having been the other person pushing for details). And I can't get over the way he swallowed llamarble's claim so quickly, without a hint of doubt... and the way he shuffled Iso to the bottom of his late day list, despite not actually having appeared to be terribly suspicious of him before, based on... 'wagon analysis of the llamarble wagon'. Right. In conclusion - interactions with Fate are mostly null, but suspicious for other reasons.
tl;dr version, Voxxicus:-
- had Fate near bottom of lists, but actually spent most of his time pursuing Nacho and KoL, then llamarble
+ called for llamarble to shoot Fate when unvoting him
- ...but was very interested in when Fate would die
- swallowed llamarble's claim too quickly
- late game list rings hollow, especially the sudden shuffling of Iso to the bottom based on 'wagon analysis of llamarble wagon'
= interactions with Fate null. Other reasons tilt towards him being worthy of suspicion.
Cyan, however, looks the worst on review. He made no mention whatsoever of Fate early game, and mostly spent his time pushing on Iso, KoL, and Nacho. He sided with Fate over Cyouni, which I remember being quite surprised about, given that I had exactly the opposite reaction - something which he appears to have covered with his claim of finding MS players less scummy than MtGS players. Notably, here, he says Thor is 'clearly town' and AF is 'not as clearly town but not scummy', implying that Fate is town as well... but later, to me, he says he has 'no real read' on Fate.... and now that I consider it again, his claim of finding 'only MtGS players scummy in that post re: Fate v Cyouni doesn't appear to mesh with him claiming to have been 'suspicious of KoL all game'. He did vote Fate here, but is also the only player out of this whole lot who actively discouraged the Fate wagon, in the same post he unvotes Fate to follow llamarble on KoL... and again, here. His interactions with Fate are easily the most suspicious.
tl;dr version, Cyan:-
- pursued Iso, KoL, Nacho
- sided with Fate over Cyouni
- inconsistencies with his reads of KoL and Fate across various posts
- discouraged Fate wagon, the only player of this lot to do so
Mm.
Unvote: Voxxicus
FoS: Voxxicus
Vote: Cyan
I'm leaning towards Cyan/Voxxicus right now, which would actually make this post make sense. I thought that was a kind of strange thing for Cyan to bother pointing out. And Cyan/DYH doesn't make any sense at all.
At some point, for completion's sake, I'll need to slog through Thor's posts to see what he said about Fate. I'm not looking forward to it.
Oh, and...
@Voxxicus
Riddle me these, please.
1. Why do you not think Vierni is town, given that Vierni was the second vote on Fate's wagon?
2. Why is DYH now suddenly your 'strongest town read'? Reasons, please.
3. Why is Vierni/Cyan not a possibility, and why is Vierni/Cyouni not a possibility?
And, this one..
4. Why do you not mention that 'with luck, we hit both scum and win'... and not mention that if we hit two town, we're at LyLo?
@llamarble
Re: above - while I'd like for you to prove you have a second shot, as I mention above, the numbers may not make that a good idea. I need to think on this one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
....aaaaand I forgot to bold the other two tl;dr sections. Blah.
tl;dr version, DYH:-
- mostly vs. Thor and Cyan
- barely mentioned Fate prior to voting him
+ was vote no. 4, at a time when voting Iso might have been justified
= inconclusive
tl;dr version, Voxxicus:-
- had Fate near bottom of lists, but actually spent most of his time pursuing Nacho and KoL, then llamarble
+ called for llamarble to shoot Fate when unvoting him
- ...but was very interested in when Fate would die
- swallowed llamarble's claim too quickly
- late game list rings hollow, especially the sudden shuffling of Iso to the bottom based on 'wagon analysis of llamarble wagon'
= interactions with Fate null. Other reasons tilt towards him being worthy of suspicion.
tl;dr version, Cyan:-
- pursued Iso, KoL, Nacho
- sided with Fate over Cyouni
- inconsistencies with his reads of KoL and Fate across various posts
- discouraged Fate wagon, the only player of this lot to do so
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
And a conversation is ended, again, by Thor going 'the answer is what I already said the answer was' and heads are nodded, and Thor is left wondering what the purpose of the conversation ever was in the first place.
@Llama - I don't really agree with desCoures' take on the game, but I would like to note that choosing to lead a charge on Cyan is another town tell from the slot.
This is going to be one of those game days where people keep teasing me by mentioning DYH as potential secondary scum read, but always having a bigger scumread, and then by the end of the day they're going to complain that I've been harping on DYH the entire time and act surprised that I chose to do so.
I might support a Voxx wagon.
I do not support either the Cyourni or Cyan wagons.
I also will admit I dislike wagons based off 'didn't mention Scumbuddy' because I don't think any of the players int his game will be playing at a level that will be a valid tell on.
Interesting. DC's analysis is pretty impressive, from an objective standpoint. If I wasn't me, I'd probably think I was scum.
Though I will note that he makes more direct conclusions in that post than he is typically prone toward.
I'm probably a good lynch candidate today, honestly.
I also think that, at most, one of DYH/Thor is scum. DYH hinted toward a power role yesterday, and should be expected to deliver on that at some point. If I were him and I had relevant information to share, I'd consider doing so today, because he seems fairly unlikely to survive tonight now that the Doc is already dead.
I still don't see Voxx as scum, but I could see Cyouni as such. And I'm not really sold on Nacho being town, but I wouldn't want to pursue him as a lynch before most of the other people that are still alive.
So we agree that your advanced notion of snark vs. sarcasm is bollocks?
Cool.
It's cute that you keep trying to strawman the entire argument into this and wave it all away as if the two posts I linked didn't already cover it.
Quote from Thor »
And now Cyourni wasn't pushing me "enough" to qualify for the list of people I had to make dead or attack...riiiiight. Gosh, it's amazing how everything just slides into place for scum Thor as long as we rule out the parts that don't agree with the theory case.
It's amazing how the flips just slide into place for you to be scum, yet your version of events magically ignores that.
Quote from Thor »
So now the issue is how I "defended differently" evidence of this different defense is...? Because DYH said so, as far as I can grok - because up until now your explanation was the snark vs. sarcasm thing which you're now avoiding justifying (presumably because you realize it's indefensible and/or were making gak up and hoping it would smell sweet on the other side)
I didn't defend differently. I called her case on my nonsensical and mocked her for it.
That's what I did to Iso as well.
It's what I did to you for a third.
Heck, DGB's issue with me raised from a belief that I was bullying her, and now you want to say that somehow I decided not to bully her. Awesome, at least one of your cases is proven to be as derpy as I said it was, now it's only a hop, skip, and a jump away to full sanity when everyone will notice I was right about both.
Which is interesting again because I pointed out earlier your inconsistency as it pertained to my case on you, and your belief that it "held internal logic". So which is it, Thor? Was it completely "derpy" or was it "logical"? Or were you just making stuff up as you went along? (Hint: I'm going with the last option.)
And since you like semantics so much, no, Kami didn't accuse you of "bullying" her, she accused you of "gaslighting" her, painting her as a "blithering idiot" and a "policy lynch" candidate. Rather than attempt to intimidate her directly, you were trying to ruin her credibility from the get-go; presumably because she's familiar with you, and you didn't want the MTGSers to be persuaded by her opinion. It was basically character assassination from the second post you made mention of her.
Seriously, who talks about a policy lynch five days into the game? Someone who's not interested in actually finding scum, that's who.
Quote from Thor »
Finally you actually toss self-awareness of my playstyle at me...when earlier when Iso noted self awareness you seemed to love that. Hint: everyone is aware of their playstyle...that's called having a working brain. As an additional addendum, I didn't actually change my playstyle via my self awareness, so...yeah, brilliant scumtell. Here's my new case on you, you're posting in the game thread - it's a thing....that makes just as much sense as your case.
Iso scenario was different - he was actively admitting to playing differently because of people telling him his play style is annoying. I've witnessed that first-hand, and seen Iso's reactions to it. I believed him. To be fair, I'm pretty familiar with Iso - you, not so much.
Quote from Thor »
I also like how hung up you are on me pulling out the acronym on you. It makes me want to lynch you more. Pretty soon everyone else will notice that Cyourni doesn't actually look that scummy, and then we'll lynch you and I'll dance about on your grave. It'll be a fun date.
You slapping OMGUS on me today for voting you is nothing more than an attempt to smear the attacker. It's been pretty obvious that I thought you were scum well before your vote on me, so your motive here is pretty transparent: you tried to get in front of me today knowing full-well that other two people hot on your case turning up town wasn't going to look good. And guess what? It doesn't.
It's cute that you keep trying to strawman the entire argument into this and wave it all away as if the two posts I linked didn't already cover it.
Since they didn't...yes, I am doing that. Or are you saying that clarified your position in a meaningful and understandable way? Who did it convince or help understand your point?
It's amazing how the flips just slide into place for you to be scum, yet your version of events magically ignores that.
Okay, so we lynched a scum who was buddying me, a claimed Doc got killed (not because she was the Doc, but because she suspected me) and someone other than me (who you seem to think is town) decided to kill a player who also suspected me.
Darn, yes, I am getting you all to dance on my strings.
Gak like this is why you are scum.
Which is interesting again because I pointed out earlier your inconsistency as it pertained to my case on you, and your belief that it "held internal logic". So which is it, Thor? Was it completely "derpy" or was it "logical"? Or were you just making stuff up as you went along? (Hint: I'm going with the last option.)
Hint: I said it had internal consistency, I never said it was good logic.
Something can be derpy while still having internal consistancy. For instance, i could argue that green is blue, and as long as I lived my life always claiming green was blue I would have internal consistency and probably not be lying about my beliefs- but I would be derpy and should not be listened to about color theory.
And since you like semantics so much, no, Kami didn't accuse you of "bullying" her, she accused you of "gaslighting" her, painting her as a "blithering idiot" and a "policy lynch" candidate. Rather than attempt to intimidate her directly, you were trying to ruin her credibility from the get-go; presumably because she's familiar with you, and you didn't want the MTGSers to be persuaded by her opinion. It was basically character assassination from the second post you made mention of her.
Yes, because all the MSers immediately sheeped her opinions.
I didn't need to assassinate anything even if I was horrified of her mighty and super skillful town play.
Feel free to go search MS and find me ever claiming I feared DGBs cases when I was scum.
Then go do a search for me suggesting I find her play odd, illogical, and worthy of policy lynch.
Guess which you'll find?
Her assassination claim was based off a concept that was provably untrue.
Iso scenario was different - he was actively admitting to playing differently because of people telling him his play style is annoying. I've witnessed that first-hand, and seen Iso's reactions to it. I believed him. To be fair, I'm pretty familiar with Iso - you, not so much.
Your case *is* about the "change" in my playstyle though, right?
you tried to get in front of me today knowing full-well that other two people hot on your case turning up town wasn't going to look good. And guess what? It doesn't.
Yes, it was all part of my master scum plan to go 1 v 1 with a town player on Day 2, which is why I arranged for both of them to be dead to benefit me...even though you now say it hurts me - and that both occurences are scummy.
Everything keeps coming up the way Thor "Machiavelli" Corleone has planned it.
I'm almost trying to decide if this level of paranoia is flailing or a town tell though - because it is at an impressive level.
Anyone here want to claim they know DYH's playstyle pretty well?
Specifically what sort of paranoia he usually showcases in a game as either alignment?
I actually took the time overnight to go back and read the back and forth with you, and I have a lot of difficulty seeing him being scum. He's convinced that he's right, and that's incredibly hard to fake as scum. He's town.
I actually took the time overnight to go back and read the back and forth with you, and I have a lot of difficulty seeing him being scum. He's convinced that he's right, and that's incredibly hard to fake as scum. He's town.
Yeah, but he's also convinced I'm a flying Vatican assassin riding atop a horned tiger too.
But you're saying you have never seen him paranoid to this level as scum?
Because I don't really care about things you think "scum can never fake, yadda, yadda" cases because I've got my own opinions of what scum can or cannot fake. I've been scum quite often and had people say I wouldn't be able to fake things I just faked and I always just sort of shrug and laugh and eat a cookie to reward myself.
.
Also, to a certain degree, I think the best cases to make as scum are ones you believe in - so unless you want to claim to me that he doesn't buy into his cases as scum, I don't see that mattering to me. I don't buy into 'seems to believe the spew he's selling' as a town tell because unless you're *fething terrible* as scum, you will make cases that make, y'know, any sense at all to yourself. The usual flaws there are being willing to go a little too far over something to try to bust somebody.
That all said, what interests me is he has an intense level of paranoia being expressed here wherein he's actually claiming one thing is both part of my masterfully orchestrated scum plan, and at the same time claiming it's the way he was clever enough to spot me because it's a blatant scumtell. If he believes one he shouldn't believe the other, unless he's just paranoid frothing.
Now, paranoid frothing comes awfully close to scum flailing in my opinion, but it is one of the few emotion related tells that I think actually matters one fig since paranoia is a town tell.
What I want to know is how often is DYH paranoid?
Have you seen it before?
Is it a common thing from him?
Stuff like that.
If what he did is a town tell for you, so much the better for him and for you - but I'm asking about the paranoia, not expressed belief.
Fate was literally screaming at me yesterday to leave Iso alone and help lynch Cy at a point where it would have been quite easy for him to get with the Iso wagon because he'd been part of it already once before (and went there again). I do not see that as a likely bus action at that stage of the game.
In other random news - am I the only one still clicking on Smalltown Swap half the time? Seriously, who decided to name that game and this one so similar - I hate you.
You could use Windows Magnifier if you're having trouble seeing the letters!
Nacho is also probably town - reading back over the Fate/Nacho interactions, Fate addressed a vote on him by Nacho as a 'fair vote', which I can't read as any way other than scum on town appeasement.
Cyouni already said this. Got any other, better reasons?
I would also like to note that Cyouni preferred a Fate wagon "by a vast margin" (938), but was unwilling to place the L-1 vote on Fate. It would seem that if he vastly preferred a Fate lynch, he would have been better served by placing his vote immediately instead of waiting to hammer, thereby making it that much more certain that Fate would be the deadline lynch. Instead he left an opening for Fate to not get lynched if the will of the crowd decided Iso should die.
--
Question. What is the significance of people asking if Llamarble has multiple shots? I appreciate the notion of a Mafia 1xVig being rare but a Mafia 2xVig being unheard of, but "Basic" has a stranger meaning than I initially expected if Mafia 1xVig is noticeably common to start with.
Because he needed to be bussing at that stage?
Tell me more.
In other random news - am I the only one still clicking on Smalltown Swap half the time? Seriously, who decided to name that game and this one so similar - I hate you.
I think that there is a fair argument that scum always should be looking to bus early in the game. I'll go over the context of that conversation and see what AF had to say.
---
I only have a tab/bookmark open to this thread, so etc.
My comment is instead that this game is now set to chiptune music. The source should only surprise you insofar as it took me this long to play it.
I'll admit I do tend to start most debates with the presumption the other people involved are sane.
But I think it's a valid point here - I was still hard pushing Iso, a town player. I think there was another wagon bubbling around at the same time (me? maybe Nacho?) I forget and am too lazy to look it up. But at that point he is going to try to scream me off a tunnel on town in order to help him bus a scumbuddy?
It just doesn't make a lot of sense, he could have simply vaguely raged and accomplished the purpose of hard bussing without actually working to put Cyourni scum down the pipes.
It makes decent sense if it's another town wagon though, because then he'd be pretty happy to get that lynch through and leave me with Iso again today, which is pure win/win for the scumteam.
What makes you think that's all bussing action even still?
I'll give you some points to Cyourni's hesitance at deadline, but it's not like he'd felt like a whirling dervish of proactive aggression up to that point, so it feels in line with his soft play, yeah?
Do you have any particular reason you don't want to lynch DYH instead?
I'll admit my case on him is 50% 'Thor has a town PM' but, hey, that's a sexy case anyway, and his reaction to the vote bespeaks someone whose reads were totally unaffected by any flips - which screams scum to my mind considering we had three of them.
Just saying.
Also just saying.
Hmm. Let's review.
My post today:
So yes, that statement of yours is so obviously true.
Next up, let's cover those flips, shall we?
Iso - town - just as I read - and oh, wanted you dead.
Kami - town - wanted you dead.
Fate - whom you refused to vote - scum.
Huh, seems like you kinda made my case for me, there, Thor.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Instead you took something that was superficially scummy, added in come OMGUS, and want to pretend like it's an actual case and you're scumhunting. I have some rope that would like to show you how it's actually done.
When you defend your scumhunting and how it's not fake at all and that you did look over Fate for partner interactions please also provide that still needed explanation of the differences between snark and sarcasm - since that was a big part of your case on me yesterday and wasn't sturm and drang I'm sure it will be easy to provide.
Regarding not voting, I wanted to hold off until as late as possible to get as much information in thread as possible, and given the timeframe, an accidental hammer was quite possible.
Regarding the "opening for Fate to not get lynched", the only person I realistically saw swapping from Iso to Fate was Voxxicus, given the timeframe. Far more likely to see a shift in the other direction.
I recall seeing a 1xVig before. It's not common, but I'm not discounting the possibility.
"I set an instant email subscription on the thread since I wouldn't have access to a computer until morning (my time). I had my phone and I expected email alerts to let me know if I needed to phone post anything. I got an email about Asenion's post at 4:25 PM (my time again) and no other email. I also miscounted the votes (counted Tare twice) and thought Asenion got six votes leaving the mystery of whether I fired open or not. I never bothered to check in before I went to bed because I thought no posts since no email. Last time I'll ever depend on the forum software. :("
Here's all the posts Fate's made, excluding those that relate solely to a dead person or probable jokes. They're listed in reverse order, though three in the middle were screwed up because I couldn't wait for my browser to load them properly.
The people he was mainly declaring town were Thor, Nacho, and Llamarble. He took every spare opportunity he had to do so.
The people he was declaring scum were me and two dead people.
Voxxicus was mentioned once as my buddy.
Cyan was mentioned once (as town) and promptly forgotten.
desCoures and DYH weren't mentioned.
He declared Vi to be scum until questioned, then promptly went back on it, retracting his opinion. He eventually declared Vi to be town at the end.
The problem is that his complete lack of reasons for anything unrelated to me makes this difficult. The only reason he gave was "scumteam refuses to be riled up by anything I do", citing Nacho, Thor and Llamarble as town as a result. But that doesn't make sense.
The most that really comes out of him is in relation to Nacho and Vi.
His whole thing regarding Vi reads as a spot for him to park "suspicion" until he found something better to do. He didn't even bother coming up with a reason - he obviously never expected to be questioned on it. Not sure on this one. It fits what scum would want to do to a buddy (he gets to say "I was suspicious of him, see" in the case that buddy dies), but I'd like to think that he'd at least come up with a reason in that case.
His reaction to Nacho's vote makes Nacho even more town. The whole "that's a fair vote" makes no sense if it's addressed to a scumbuddy. It's appeasement. The whole post has a conciliatory tone.
There's an odd point where he's screaming at Thor to vote me. However, looking back for comparisons, Cyan expressed agreement, as well as suspicion regarding me, but never acted on it. (A check also tells me Cyan wasn't voting anyone at that time.) Fate's complete lack of reaction to Cyan is off, given that. It's not the site difference - Fate shows no sign of avoiding Iso. It's even more off when you consider that Thor wasn't even expressing suspicion of me in that post.
After his post calling Voxxicus my buddy, Fate never mentions him again.
I'd say his scumbuddies are {Cyan/Thor}, {Voxxicus/DYH/desCoures/Vierni}.
I'll look over the first set tomorrow.
Of the last set, I'd say Voxxicus, DYH, Vierni, dC in that order.
In re: Cyouni - You're still assuming that Fate wasn't trying to distance. In addition, I think you're putting too much stock in Fate yelling at you when that's his default tone of text.
--
1) With mere hours before the deadline, I think this is a weak excuse.
2) This actually makes my objection more relevant.
In general, yes.
Except it *wasn't* in this game - meaning there was greater emphasis there than what he was pushing around most of the time.
It's like saying 'Sarcasm is how Thor types, so the level of sarcasm he had towards Iso has no meaning to his play here' except that if you compare the level I had towards him or Cyouni (my two prime pushes yesterday) it's pretty ruddy apparent which push I was more excited about no matter what I or anyone else may say to the contrary, because I was clearly more emotionally and strongly invested in the one than the other.
I think Fate was more eager for a Cyouni lynch at that poit than he ever was for an Iso lynch - that makes it feel un-buss like since, strategically, that would be a bad stance to take at that point with a scumbuddy. I don't think it's a runaway case of win wrapped in bacon, but it's certainly a solid point and I'm not sure why you're dismissing it to the point you want to lynch Cyouni for being a buddy since your connection between them is no less tenuous than my logic for separating them.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
1) I don't like pointless chances.
2) The only person who was realistically going to shift from Iso -> Fate in time was Voxxicus. I wasn't going to bet the chance of having a no-lynch on that.
As long as we ignore that Cyouni is right there and I'm also defending him then, yes, you are absolutely correct.
Brilliant.
Oh, wait, no, the other thing...opposite like.
Was the above sarcasm or snark?
Who knows? DYH just makes up the difference to pretend he's scumhunting.
And of course my version of utilizing the flips to futher cement my thoughts of you being scum doesn't work for you. Shocking. Calling my vote on you OMGUS is hysterical - and scummy - as I noted above, and the flips are all out of favor for you. You'll have to pardon me for not changing my stance any.
I'm not in the mood to get caught up in a semantics debate about your behavior, but it's a pretty obvious shift as I've covered before. You can even read about it here and here.
Core issue: you defended against Kami in a different manner than you defended against me and Iso. You thought you could just bully us off, but Kami is familiar with you, and that tactic wasn't going to work. Also, the self-awareness of your own playstyle; manufacturing an image is a thing.
The continued "is this snark or sarcasm?" cracks - as Iso and I pointed out - just come off as 'trying too hard'. And an attempt to strawman/discredit the argument at hand.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Cool.
And now Cyourni wasn't pushing me "enough" to qualify for the list of people I had to make dead or attack...riiiiight. Gosh, it's amazing how everything just slides into place for scum Thor as long as we rule out the parts that don't agree with the theory case.
So now the issue is how I "defended differently" evidence of this different defense is...? Because DYH said so, as far as I can grok - because up until now your explanation was the snark vs. sarcasm thing which you're now avoiding justifying (presumably because you realize it's indefensible and/or were making gak up and hoping it would smell sweet on the other side)
I didn't defend differently. I called her case on my nonsensical and mocked her for it.
That's what I did to Iso as well.
It's what I did to you for a third.
Heck, DGB's issue with me raised from a belief that I was bullying her, and now you want to say that somehow I decided not to bully her. Awesome, at least one of your cases is proven to be as derpy as I said it was, now it's only a hop, skip, and a jump away to full sanity when everyone will notice I was right about both.
Finally you actually toss self-awareness of my playstyle at me...when earlier when Iso noted self awareness you seemed to love that. Hint: everyone is aware of their playstyle...that's called having a working brain. As an additional addendum, I didn't actually change my playstyle via my self awareness, so...yeah, brilliant scumtell. Here's my new case on you, you're posting in the game thread - it's a thing....that makes just as much sense as your case.
I also like how hung up you are on me pulling out the acronym on you. It makes me want to lynch you more. Pretty soon everyone else will notice that Cyourni doesn't actually look that scummy, and then we'll lynch you and I'll dance about on your grave. It'll be a fun date.
Two people came in and were voting Cyouni. You say it's the 'chosen mislynch' for the day. Which of them is the scum pushing the mislynch, then? You say that, and then vote...DYH.
The logic doesn't mesh, at all. You think Cyouni is town, you think scum are pushing the lynch on him, but you aren't making any attempt to determine the alignment of Vi/Nacho - who are the only people voting/pushing for that lynch.
Reconcile this.
This seems like the best post I've seen all game. I'm greatly looking forward to seeing it answered.
I think for the time being I'm going to go back to my previous conclusion in re: Cyouni.
Unvote: Cyouni
Vote: Voxxicus (L-3)
This vote seems pretty bad. How does your 'previous conclusion re: Cyouni' result in you voting for Voxxicus?
I also don't think he's currently alive, if that's unclear from my post.
Is this sarcasm?
I'm hoping it was sarcasm.
But aside from asking if you have strong reads at all, I'd like to redirect your attention here. Given the conversation with Cyouni just now, it seems that Fate wasn't the obvious lynch in that last-minute standoff. If anything, the only time that it was obvious that Fate was going to be the lynch was when you yourself cast your Fate vote - at L-1, and he was then hammered by someone who wasn't on the Iso wagon to start with.
This mindset suggests that you viewed Fate as a sinking ship, which explains why you were willing to vote him in a situation where sticking to your Iso vote would have ensured that Iso would have been the lynch.
@Vierni: Reasons?
On another note, what happened to you thinking Cyan was scum?
No, I am voting him because we are masons together and I vaguely hate everyone in this game.
No posts I have made at all today include any thoughts about why I think he is worthy of my vote.
Are you serious with this? I mean, I love the Socratic method as much as the next guy, but...seriously?
Which is like, what, 4 pages long, 3?
At least pretend to try to work a bit, yeah? I'm made fun of on MS for being so lazy and here I feel like one of the major and willing workhorses. It's not a happy-go-dappy feeling.
Things change?
You're still my leading town candidate, but not much beyond that. llamarble is clearly town, but that's not really a 'read'.
Well, add in that he was part of three people voting me and two flipped town, but yes.
Alright, reading it from that perspective makes sense.
See, I re-read overnight and my read on DYH nearly reversed. He's probably my strongest town read, non-claim edition at the moment.
Combining that with Iso and KoL flipping town, and Thor was something I wanted to sort out.
But he's probbbably town?
I keep re-reading the end of D1, and I have so much trouble seeing that coming from scum who is also scum with Fate. It reads like he genuinely believes it was a flashwagon on town, despite his reads not really meshing with that perception.
Nacho is also probably town - reading back over the Fate/Nacho interactions, Fate addressed a vote on him by Nacho as a 'fair vote', which I can't read as any way other than scum on town appeasement.
Taking that into consideration, that leaves four names for two scum to reside in:
Vierni
Cyouni
desCoures
Cyan
I would like to lynch one and have Llamarble poison another.
With luck, both hit scum, and we win.
Vierni and Cyan are not scum together.
Vierni and Cyouni are (probably) not scum together.
I'll try to find the interaction that made me so sure Vi/Cyan wasn't a thing, in my notes. I just have it listed as "Vi/Cyan confirmed not scumbuddies. Cyan probbbaby not scum at all"
That leaves the following possibilities:
Cyan/Cyouni
Cyan/DesCoures
Vierni/DesCoures
Cyouni/DesCoures
This probably means that I was horribly wrong about dC on D1, yes.
That's unfortunate.
Going through vote counts in a bit, just took a work break to post.
Reasons?
Fate's posts were more or less exactly as Cyouni presented them. Those, and Cyouni's posts reminded me that the entire reason I began to be suspicious of Fate and think better of Cyouni yesterday was because of the skirmish between Fate and Cyouni. I'm with Thor on this one. Fate and Cyouni together as scum doesn't make sense.
DYH's posts were the least informative. Most of his day 1 was spent in conflict with Thor, and then with Cyan. Fate was mentioned exactly once - in a throwaway reference to 'not liking his string of posts' very early on, and then never again right up to the point DYH votes him, apparently for no reason other than that he has Iso as town, which does fit the mold of carefully ignoring one's scumbuddy. Contrary to what I'd thought before, though, this was vote no. 4 on the Fate wagon - a scum-DYH might have arguably seen the tide turning against Fate and decided to bus, but this was still a point at which a vote on Iso would have been justified, even with a town read on him. His interactions with Fate, then, are inconclusive.
tl;dr version, DYH:-
- mostly vs. Thor and Cyan
- barely mentioned Fate prior to voting him
+ was vote no. 4, at a time when voting Iso might have been justified
= inconclusive
Voxxicus isn't much better in that regard. Unlike DYH, Voxxicus did mention Fate on occasion, and always had him near the bottom of his lists... but in fact spent all of his time pursuing Nacho, KoL, and then llamarble. His work-related V/LA messes things up a bit, as we are missing his initial reactions to a number of arguments. In his favour, he did call for llamarble to shoot Fate. He did, however, say this knowing that he was one of llamarble's mentioned preferences to shoot, and did seem rather interested in when exactly Fate would die (and yes, I say this having been the other person pushing for details). And I can't get over the way he swallowed llamarble's claim so quickly, without a hint of doubt... and the way he shuffled Iso to the bottom of his late day list, despite not actually having appeared to be terribly suspicious of him before, based on... 'wagon analysis of the llamarble wagon'. Right. In conclusion - interactions with Fate are mostly null, but suspicious for other reasons.
tl;dr version, Voxxicus:-
- had Fate near bottom of lists, but actually spent most of his time pursuing Nacho and KoL, then llamarble
+ called for llamarble to shoot Fate when unvoting him
- ...but was very interested in when Fate would die
- swallowed llamarble's claim too quickly
- late game list rings hollow, especially the sudden shuffling of Iso to the bottom based on 'wagon analysis of llamarble wagon'
= interactions with Fate null. Other reasons tilt towards him being worthy of suspicion.
Cyan, however, looks the worst on review. He made no mention whatsoever of Fate early game, and mostly spent his time pushing on Iso, KoL, and Nacho. He sided with Fate over Cyouni, which I remember being quite surprised about, given that I had exactly the opposite reaction - something which he appears to have covered with his claim of finding MS players less scummy than MtGS players. Notably, here, he says Thor is 'clearly town' and AF is 'not as clearly town but not scummy', implying that Fate is town as well... but later, to me, he says he has 'no real read' on Fate.... and now that I consider it again, his claim of finding 'only MtGS players scummy in that post re: Fate v Cyouni doesn't appear to mesh with him claiming to have been 'suspicious of KoL all game'. He did vote Fate here, but is also the only player out of this whole lot who actively discouraged the Fate wagon, in the same post he unvotes Fate to follow llamarble on KoL... and again, here. His interactions with Fate are easily the most suspicious.
tl;dr version, Cyan:-
- pursued Iso, KoL, Nacho
- sided with Fate over Cyouni
- inconsistencies with his reads of KoL and Fate across various posts
- discouraged Fate wagon, the only player of this lot to do so
Mm.
Unvote: Voxxicus
FoS: Voxxicus
Vote: Cyan
I'm leaning towards Cyan/Voxxicus right now, which would actually make this post make sense. I thought that was a kind of strange thing for Cyan to bother pointing out. And Cyan/DYH doesn't make any sense at all.
At some point, for completion's sake, I'll need to slog through Thor's posts to see what he said about Fate. I'm not looking forward to it.
Oh, and...
@Voxxicus
Riddle me these, please.
1. Why do you not think Vierni is town, given that Vierni was the second vote on Fate's wagon?
2. Why is DYH now suddenly your 'strongest town read'? Reasons, please.
3. Why is Vierni/Cyan not a possibility, and why is Vierni/Cyouni not a possibility?
And, this one..
4. Why do you not mention that 'with luck, we hit both scum and win'... and not mention that if we hit two town, we're at LyLo?
@llamarble
Re: above - while I'd like for you to prove you have a second shot, as I mention above, the numbers may not make that a good idea. I need to think on this one.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
....aaaaand I forgot to bold the other two tl;dr sections. Blah.
tl;dr version, DYH:-
- mostly vs. Thor and Cyan
- barely mentioned Fate prior to voting him
+ was vote no. 4, at a time when voting Iso might have been justified
= inconclusive
tl;dr version, Voxxicus:-
- had Fate near bottom of lists, but actually spent most of his time pursuing Nacho and KoL, then llamarble
+ called for llamarble to shoot Fate when unvoting him
- ...but was very interested in when Fate would die
- swallowed llamarble's claim too quickly
- late game list rings hollow, especially the sudden shuffling of Iso to the bottom based on 'wagon analysis of llamarble wagon'
= interactions with Fate null. Other reasons tilt towards him being worthy of suspicion.
tl;dr version, Cyan:-
- pursued Iso, KoL, Nacho
- sided with Fate over Cyouni
- inconsistencies with his reads of KoL and Fate across various posts
- discouraged Fate wagon, the only player of this lot to do so
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
And a conversation is ended, again, by Thor going 'the answer is what I already said the answer was' and heads are nodded, and Thor is left wondering what the purpose of the conversation ever was in the first place.
@Llama - I don't really agree with desCoures' take on the game, but I would like to note that choosing to lead a charge on Cyan is another town tell from the slot.
This is going to be one of those game days where people keep teasing me by mentioning DYH as potential secondary scum read, but always having a bigger scumread, and then by the end of the day they're going to complain that I've been harping on DYH the entire time and act surprised that I chose to do so.
I might support a Voxx wagon.
I do not support either the Cyourni or Cyan wagons.
I also will admit I dislike wagons based off 'didn't mention Scumbuddy' because I don't think any of the players int his game will be playing at a level that will be a valid tell on.
Though I will note that he makes more direct conclusions in that post than he is typically prone toward.
I'm probably a good lynch candidate today, honestly.
I also think that, at most, one of DYH/Thor is scum. DYH hinted toward a power role yesterday, and should be expected to deliver on that at some point. If I were him and I had relevant information to share, I'd consider doing so today, because he seems fairly unlikely to survive tonight now that the Doc is already dead.
I still don't see Voxx as scum, but I could see Cyouni as such. And I'm not really sold on Nacho being town, but I wouldn't want to pursue him as a lynch before most of the other people that are still alive.
It's cute that you keep trying to strawman the entire argument into this and wave it all away as if the two posts I linked didn't already cover it.
It's amazing how the flips just slide into place for you to be scum, yet your version of events magically ignores that.
Which is interesting again because I pointed out earlier your inconsistency as it pertained to my case on you, and your belief that it "held internal logic". So which is it, Thor? Was it completely "derpy" or was it "logical"? Or were you just making stuff up as you went along? (Hint: I'm going with the last option.)
And since you like semantics so much, no, Kami didn't accuse you of "bullying" her, she accused you of "gaslighting" her, painting her as a "blithering idiot" and a "policy lynch" candidate. Rather than attempt to intimidate her directly, you were trying to ruin her credibility from the get-go; presumably because she's familiar with you, and you didn't want the MTGSers to be persuaded by her opinion. It was basically character assassination from the second post you made mention of her.
Seriously, who talks about a policy lynch five days into the game? Someone who's not interested in actually finding scum, that's who.
Iso scenario was different - he was actively admitting to playing differently because of people telling him his play style is annoying. I've witnessed that first-hand, and seen Iso's reactions to it. I believed him. To be fair, I'm pretty familiar with Iso - you, not so much.
You slapping OMGUS on me today for voting you is nothing more than an attempt to smear the attacker. It's been pretty obvious that I thought you were scum well before your vote on me, so your motive here is pretty transparent: you tried to get in front of me today knowing full-well that other two people hot on your case turning up town wasn't going to look good. And guess what? It doesn't.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Whut?
Since they didn't...yes, I am doing that. Or are you saying that clarified your position in a meaningful and understandable way? Who did it convince or help understand your point?
Okay, so we lynched a scum who was buddying me, a claimed Doc got killed (not because she was the Doc, but because she suspected me) and someone other than me (who you seem to think is town) decided to kill a player who also suspected me.
Darn, yes, I am getting you all to dance on my strings.
Gak like this is why you are scum.
Hint: I said it had internal consistency, I never said it was good logic.
Something can be derpy while still having internal consistancy. For instance, i could argue that green is blue, and as long as I lived my life always claiming green was blue I would have internal consistency and probably not be lying about my beliefs- but I would be derpy and should not be listened to about color theory.
Yes, because all the MSers immediately sheeped her opinions.
I didn't need to assassinate anything even if I was horrified of her mighty and super skillful town play.
Feel free to go search MS and find me ever claiming I feared DGBs cases when I was scum.
Then go do a search for me suggesting I find her play odd, illogical, and worthy of policy lynch.
Guess which you'll find?
Her assassination claim was based off a concept that was provably untrue.
Your case *is* about the "change" in my playstyle though, right?
Yes, it was all part of my master scum plan to go 1 v 1 with a town player on Day 2, which is why I arranged for both of them to be dead to benefit me...even though you now say it hurts me - and that both occurences are scummy.
Everything keeps coming up the way Thor "Machiavelli" Corleone has planned it.
I'm almost trying to decide if this level of paranoia is flailing or a town tell though - because it is at an impressive level.
Anyone here want to claim they know DYH's playstyle pretty well?
Specifically what sort of paranoia he usually showcases in a game as either alignment?
Just was skimming through, and wanted to ask:
Cyan, have you ever been willing to be lynched, or acknowledge that you're a good lynch target as town before?
Because mannnn that feels very un-Cyan-like.
I'm pretty positive this is tunneled Town!DYH.
I actually took the time overnight to go back and read the back and forth with you, and I have a lot of difficulty seeing him being scum. He's convinced that he's right, and that's incredibly hard to fake as scum. He's town.
Yeah, but he's also convinced I'm a flying Vatican assassin riding atop a horned tiger too.
But you're saying you have never seen him paranoid to this level as scum?
Because I don't really care about things you think "scum can never fake, yadda, yadda" cases because I've got my own opinions of what scum can or cannot fake. I've been scum quite often and had people say I wouldn't be able to fake things I just faked and I always just sort of shrug and laugh and eat a cookie to reward myself.
.
Also, to a certain degree, I think the best cases to make as scum are ones you believe in - so unless you want to claim to me that he doesn't buy into his cases as scum, I don't see that mattering to me. I don't buy into 'seems to believe the spew he's selling' as a town tell because unless you're *fething terrible* as scum, you will make cases that make, y'know, any sense at all to yourself. The usual flaws there are being willing to go a little too far over something to try to bust somebody.
That all said, what interests me is he has an intense level of paranoia being expressed here wherein he's actually claiming one thing is both part of my masterfully orchestrated scum plan, and at the same time claiming it's the way he was clever enough to spot me because it's a blatant scumtell. If he believes one he shouldn't believe the other, unless he's just paranoid frothing.
Now, paranoid frothing comes awfully close to scum flailing in my opinion, but it is one of the few emotion related tells that I think actually matters one fig since paranoia is a town tell.
What I want to know is how often is DYH paranoid?
Have you seen it before?
Is it a common thing from him?
Stuff like that.
If what he did is a town tell for you, so much the better for him and for you - but I'm asking about the paranoia, not expressed belief.
I think this post had some pretty good analysis.
Fair point, fair point.
You could use Windows Magnifier if you're having trouble seeing the letters!
Cyouni already said this. Got any other, better reasons?
What's his advantage of doing it as scum?
I don't like how Voxxicus is swapping DYH in for dC in his "oh this guy is TOTALLY town based on meta" read.
Maybe? I don't really remember.
But I've never really been in a game full of players that I consider equal to/better than me, either.
I just don't have a solid grasp of what is going on in this game, and I don't want to end up being a mislynch later when the town can't afford it.