Also I think MS is showing stronger so far
Cyan seems good though.
I agree with Fate regarding people who are targeting KoL.
If Fate is town we will probably win; that is how these things normally go.
We just need to avoid repeating Revolution Mafia >_>
Probably shouldn't mafia at 4:30 in the morning, just lost my post because I'm stupid. And no, it's not recoverable.
Hm.
This is Town!desCoures. Focused pressure, following through on things, driven push on gamestate. Everything that Redux wasn't.
I don't agree with the premise of the wagon on Iso. Not reacting to early votes is null at best - I'd actually having it leaning town, due to the lack of self-awareness displayed. I can buy his rationale for wanting to play in a more... conventional fashion for the showdown, also - not willing to lynch.
Thor is probably town. Can't state that definitively without meta to back it up, but I like the early aggression, even if I don't like the target.
Going to go somewhere completely different and:
Vote: Nachomama
For this:
Quote from Nacho »
caught all the scum but still didn't vote?
Vote: Kami
Don't like the terseness, don't like the tone. Gut says scum.
llamarble is probably town. Don't like the inconsistencies in reads, but the glib lack of self-awareness is a thing.
He cherry picked one thing, ignored the rest, and was...dismissive? Not entirely sure what the word I want is to describe the tone there, but I don't like it.
The mindset just isn't town - he did nothing to discern my own alignment there, after I'd just attacked him - just chastised me for not picking up anything on the gamestate? It's like he knows that I'm town and was subtly trying to make me think that I was wrong about the read.
He throws a vote on Iso despite... not really addressing anything Iso specific in the prior post - the closest he comes is questioning Cyan's remark on Iso.
When he realizes the wagon is at L-2, this pops out:
Quote from Nacho »
i'm very concerned by the lack of mtgs on this mtgs lynch!
but not so concerned where I'm willing to remove my vote. i would rather talk this one through nice and slow.
Nacho's vote on Iso is bad. Like completely miserably awful. A couple of his posts prior to that aren't much better. Other people from MS, is this normal behavior for him? I still think that Iso is scum, but I would probably switch wagons if Iso weren't already at L-2.
Nacho can run hot and cold as either alignment.
I don't actually think his vote is bad.
Voxx's analysis is itching my paranoia switch, but I'm not sure if that couldn't just be explained away by general dismissiveness. I'm dismissive of cases on me as town, it's how I react to them. Nacho does it semi-similar as I recall, he likes to avoid discussing things about him (which is usually my basis for lynching him).
I don't think it's a valid call at this point.
Early meltdowns generally are more indicative of the player in question than of any particular alignment. Scum are perhaps slightly more likely to completely crash and burn out of RVS pressure, but it's not reliable.
Early meltdowns generally are more indicative of the player in question than of any particular alignment. Scum are perhaps slightly more likely to completely crash and burn out of RVS pressure, but it's not reliable.
Iso strongly disagrees with you about how that's done here.
Is he crazy sauce, are you, or is he scum?
I'm not sure what there is to explain.
I find nothing objectionable about the vote and how it happened and the gamestate situation wherein it happened.
Iso's responses are fairly underwhelming for me. I am not particularly convinced that he would try to alter his playstyle for any particular game, and if he were doing so, I would expect him to state as much before being called on for it(which would be inevitable). So ultimately, I think that he is just blowing smoke.
[QUOTE=Thor665;/comments/12581254]I didn't notice you were attempting to potentially bait me for a reaction until I re-read during my wagon analysis. Thank you for the misrep, sir, may I have another?
It took a re-read for you to consider that me calling it scummy how you dodged giving a reaction was me looking for a reaction from you?
Yeah, I actually didn't dodge having a reaction to your random vote. There was nothing to react to. The fact that you keep harping on this is pretty awful.
Um, what? I didn't call Nacho scum. I said I disliked his vote but that he needed more content.
My bad, I didn't realize that in addition to the scum and town scales there was a dislike and like scale (that had no bearing on town or scumminess) wherein we compete for popularity points.
I'm pretty sure that's a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. Would you like me to walk you through it like you're 2 so that there's no way you can misunderstand what I'm saying?
Given that DYH can't possibly know for certain whether or not I know that about him, I can't fathom how you could possibly ascertain this line of questioning would be even relatively fruitful.
I am finding it fruitful.
Why does it bother you so much that I'm asking other players their opinion of your playstyle? That seems an exceedingly normal question avenue.
It doesn't bother me. Your playstyle does. The fact that you're asking DYH a question that only I could know the answer to is completely pointless.
Yes, how dare I not make an anti-town reaction to your post!
I don't think a strong reaction is anti-town. Certain strong reactions could be (like rage-quitting) but not all are.
This is ridiculous.
Okay, Thor. Let's say that I had reacted to your random vote - whether it be through questioning it, behaving hostilely towards you, or what have you. Please explain to me the following things:
How that is indicative of a town mindset
What I have to gain by responding to an RVS vote
No, it really doesn't. Scum do meltdowns in RVS. Town don't.
I never realized role PMs took away the ability of a player to act calmly.
Go figure.
I'm pretty sure I explained this when I was talking theory. Are you cherry-picking which posts of mine you read or did you just choose to ignore it because it didn't suit your anti-Iso agenda?
Iso's responses are fairly underwhelming for me. I am not particularly convinced that he would try to alter his playstyle for any particular game, and if he were doing so, I would expect him to state as much before being called on for it(which would be inevitable). So ultimately, I think that he is just blowing smoke.
I am relatively certain that announcing such would bring unnecessary scrutiny my way early on, so why on earth would I do that?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Okay then... Is there a reason the actual content of your wall comes down to one or two mediocre-at-best points?
---
I'm assuming that MtG:S sent its "best" players while mafiascum sent a mix of personalities who happen to also be considered good at the game. If that's the case, then Cyouni is the weak link by far. That vote on me (post 87) is criminal, and the rest of his content isn't good either.
Or it could be that Thor and Llamarble's conclusions are correct. But I hope not.
---
@Iso: I didn't ask you what you thought of your wagon; I asked why I should think you're Town. On the whole your wagon looks pretty darn Town-driven for an early push.
---
@Cyan: You're the only MtG:Ser on the Iso wagon. Maybe you can speak the language of the cloudibirds. Why are you still on the wagon in contrast to your fellow sitegoers?
In re: Nacho and his voting style - It's not unusual either way, I think? I more closely associate it with scum-Nacho but I also recently played a game where Nacho was actually awesome-slash-Town and the scumteam got wrecked so my point of view may be slanted.
---
Competing wagon go!
Unvote: Iso
Vote: Cyouni (L-6)
Because seriously, look at why he justified voting me for a playstyle lynch. (Page 6 Post 87)
The rest of his content is entirely useless, mostly barbs and rhetorical points that say nothing.
I'm assuming that MtG:S sent its "best" players while mafiascum sent a mix of personalities who happen to also be considered good at the game. If that's the case, then Cyouni is the weak link by far. That vote on me (post 87) is criminal, and the rest of his content isn't good either.
Certainly some of our best, sure. You're welcome to peruse the Crosstown thread to see how that developed.
Quote from Vierni »
@Iso: I didn't ask you what you thought of your wagon; I asked why I should think you're Town. On the whole your wagon looks pretty darn Town-driven for an early push.
My point is that due to the handful of obvious scum votes on my wagon as well as the fact that it's almost entirely MafiaScum players voting for me (perhaps a disconnect in site meta) that my wagon is garbage, and as such, that one should not be on it. Additionally, I'd like to think that my responses to pressure have been well-reasoned and from a town mindset. Thor is the only person explaining his push on me, so he's the only person whose points I can respond to. I'm offering what I believe to be a compelling defense and deconstructing the faulty premises on which my wagon has developed. I analyzed my wagon and provided reads from it. There has been minimal scumhunting for me to do aside from that, given that the popular thing from MS toDay seems to be "make a lot of posts that say nothing" and the hip trend from MTGS is "lurk harder". I can't give you much more beyond that, since we seem to disagree on the premise of whether or not my wagon is scum-driven.
Quote from Vierni »
Competing wagon go!
Unvote: Iso
Vote: Cyouni (L-6)
Because seriously, look at why he justified voting me for a playstyle lynch. (Page 6 Post 87)
The rest of his content is entirely useless, mostly barbs and rhetorical points that say nothing.
So you think that Cyouni's issue is with your playstyle and not your mindset? Please explain. Also, please explain how my vote on you is different from Cyouni's.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
DYH's posts probably sounded like they come from scum. Don't really remember.
DYH's posts pinged for me when he was defending ISO, but waned somewhat when he likened his normal D1 play as bulldogish. Going to look a little deeper now.
My biggest issue with the premise of "Iso ignored my RVS vote, ergo, he is scum" is that people who overreact to RVS votes are almost always more often scum than not. I fail to see how that can even be construed as an argument, here.
Funny, I don't really find that to be true. RVS votes are usually not really that important by any means except when players have a good level of familiarity with one another, so overreacting and overthinking it is usually a good indicator of town. Right now, I am mostly concerned about Cyan's interpretation of scum-ISO and Vierni's "leaving an open door" vote is likely following along the same lines unless the Altaria's feathery wings are weighted down by a scum alignment.
I disagree completely. Cyan's all but confirmed town to me based on his initial push on me - his catch on the fact that my post was completely unnatural and his reaction to my response to him was perfectly town. RVS votes can give away a lot in terms of mindset - in fact, I've been doing my best to nail people in RVS as of late. I have a fair success rate so far, though I've bumbled a few times, I'll admit. But no, scum are more inclined to overreact to random votes on them because if a townie wants to be cagey, they can create the impression that they're voting somebody seriously in RVS. Town are more relaxed in RVS because it's exactly that - random fun. Scum tend to care more about votes that might not appear random, even if they are, because scum are typically more self-conscious than town. I've seen it happen many times, and can cite examples, if you'd like.
I'm finding this to be pretty town so far. I find the frustration in playing a different game but finding people town for picking up on the strangeness in their posting to be town as ****; it's a weak defense as scum to say "oh yeah this is definitely scummy" and I find I have the tendency to mention these types of things far more often in a cold town game than I would in a scumgame.
i'm very concerned by the lack of mtgs on this mtgs lynch!
but not so concerned where I'm willing to remove my vote. i would rather talk this one through nice and slow.
I presume it's due to lack of familiarity with me - the MS people are more prone to belief in beard than the MtG lads. Yeah?
Yeah, but I'm assuming they would have a bit more familiarity with ISO than we would and thus a bit more accuracy. Or a bit more interest, something.
He cherry picked one thing, ignored the rest, and was...dismissive? Not entirely sure what the word I want is to describe the tone there, but I don't like it.
"I'm not sure that I agree with the premise of the ISO wagon" is horribly fencey and doesn't show any sort of indication that it's worth my trust. You calling me scum off gut based on tone for being terse will always always always be ignored because I am a terse player and that revelation is not so amazing to me. The DC read was interesting to me because I recently picked up a pretty strong town read on him and your reinforcement was nice, considering you two seem to have some experience together.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Because the mindset I'm getting from that response - joking or not - is one of a guilty conscience. The unspoken ":rolleyes:" smiley was just seeping from it.
I'm put off with the bandwagon mentality you're exhibiting, as well.
This post comes off as a bit awkward to me. DYH doesn't have any real reason to call Thor's reaction an overreaction (as demonstrated by the "you're scum because you're scum" bit), and the "bandwagon mentality" is just useless additional filler that I'm not really a fan of. A few people have strongly disliked bandwagon votes so far, but that's usually been the primary reason as opposed to an afterthought.
In other news, why do you not wish to support one of the larger wagons?
Is there a particular reason he has to support one of the larger wagons?
He was on the only opposition wagon to Iso (the DYH wagon)
His was the vote that made the DYH wagon one of the biggest in the game (tied for biggest at 3 votes)
By unvoting it and voting me he is actually making a pretty strong move on Iso by default unless he expects a large and powerful run on me - so he started out the day strengthening a wagon, and then changed gears on that and basically handed me, a player he appears to think is scum, control of the mega wagon with no clear competition.
I'm curious why he did that.
Except that I was never at three votes, so where exactly does that leave this theory?
I don't think the point changes at two votes or three votes, but I'm too lazy and not interested enough to see how many you got early on.
Leaning scum on DYH still, but not interested in going there yet. Vote: Vierni
I'm pretty sure that's a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. Would you like me to walk you through it like you're 2 so that there's no way you can misunderstand what I'm saying?
Yes, i would love that and am amazed you didn't do so immediately if you thought it was a misrep and also lean town on me. Please continue.
It doesn't bother me. Your playstyle does. The fact that you're asking DYH a question that only I could know the answer to is completely pointless.
I don't care what the factual answer is - I care what his perception answer is.
The question is not pointless.
The question is about scumhunting him, not you, so there's no point to ask you the question. I don't know what's confusing about that. I could start explaining things in a slow way too, but I would think the basic concept of 'ask questions to people you wish to scumhunt' is semi-universal. If you think it's meaningless why not sit back and see i it goes anywhere before awkwardly shoving yourself into the middle of it.
Okay, Thor. Let's say that I had reacted to your random vote - whether it be through questioning it, behaving hostilely towards you, or what have you. Please explain to me the following things:
How that is indicative of a town mindset
What I have to gain by responding to an RVS vote
1. Because town are curious about what is going on - it's called scumhunting.
2. To learn who I am, why I'm pushing you the way I am, and what my motives are...y'know, everything you're doing *right now* now that I called you out about not doing it earlier.
Or are you not trying to look like town now? (loaded question is awesome and loaded - scum!)
I'm pretty sure I explained this when I was talking theory. Are you cherry-picking which posts of mine you read or did you just choose to ignore it because it didn't suit your anti-Iso agenda?
I'm pretty sure I dismissed your theory when you presented it, so...yeah, sure, clearly by not accepting everything you say as fact we have shown that I am evil. How rascally of me! I'll try not to commit the scumtell of 'disagreeing with Iso's presented game theories' in the future. I promise nothing.
I will say at least one other player here on this site disagrees with your take of reality...y'know, appeal to majority and all that. Maybe you need hard evidence? Or not to state such an obviously false conclusion?
I'm actually almost offended that people think my scum game is this bad.
So...do you agree you've done scummy things, and we're just picking on you for "too obvious" ones now?
Because this is not what you were saying earlier, when you claimed you committed no scum acts at all.
So you think that Cyouni's issue is with your playstyle and not your mindset? Please explain. Also, please explain how my vote on you is different from Cyouni's.
This is the closest thing I've seen Iso do to playing like town all game.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm actually almost offended that people think my scum game is this bad.
So...do you agree you've done scummy things, and we're just picking on you for "too obvious" ones now?
Because this is not what you were saying earlier, when you claimed you committed no scum acts at all.
Whassup?
I want to specifically call this one out.
The mental disconnect here is messed up considering earlier today (real life day) he was denying anything he did at all was scummy.
Now people are running him up thinking he's 'this bad' which to my mind means "running him up on scumtells only newb scum would do"
Those thoughts don't mesh too well.
He knew he was being scummy. He denied being scummy.
I want a rope to report back to me with its findings on him.
@Iso: I didn't ask you what you thought of your wagon; I asked why I should think you're Town. On the whole your wagon looks pretty darn Town-driven for an early push.
My point is that due to the handful of obvious scum votes on my wagon as well as the fact that it's almost entirely MafiaScum players voting for me (perhaps a disconnect in site meta) that my wagon is garbage, and as such, that one should not be on it. Additionally, I'd like to think that my responses to pressure have been well-reasoned and from a town mindset. Thor is the only person explaining his push on me, so he's the only person whose points I can respond to. I'm offering what I believe to be a compelling defense and deconstructing the faulty premises on which my wagon has developed. I analyzed my wagon and provided reads from it. There has been minimal scumhunting for me to do aside from that, given that the popular thing from MS toDay seems to be "make a lot of posts that say nothing" and the hip trend from MTGS is "lurk harder". I can't give you much more beyond that, since we seem to disagree on the premise of whether or not my wagon is scum-driven.
Okay Iso. Let me try saying it like this.
YOU are seeing obvious scum votes on your wagon. I am seeing obvious Townies on your wagon.
More than likely both of us are not bloody insane. That's a lie. In my spare time I fly in clear blue skies with pooooofy arms. It's also possible that you're scumplaining about how waaaaaaah there are mean people wagoning me and I can't argue against them, but let's bet against that for a moment. But has it occurred to you that people from the same site can read each other better? When deciding what's going on with your wagon, you should probably take my word for it.
For what it's worth, Goofball's vote probably isn't a big deal. It's on something like page 3, she's deliberately posting contradictions, and without saying she's not scum I wouldn't call that vote conclusive evidence of much. Nacho see previous posts etc. Thor looks -quite- Town at this stage and it seems like your side is in agreement on Cyan. And frankly at this point I'm so incredibly, obviously, indefatigably Town that I'm honestly ashamed of myself because I don't want to be but someone has to post this to someone. Floof across the meta seas and suchlike.
Quote from Iso 112 »
Quote from Vierni »
Competing wagon go!
Unvote: Iso
Vote: Cyouni (L-6)
Because seriously, look at why he justified voting me for a playstyle lynch. (Page 6 Post 87)
The rest of his content is entirely useless, mostly barbs and rhetorical points that say nothing.
So you think that Cyouni's issue is with your playstyle and not your mindset? Please explain. Also, please explain how my vote on you is different from Cyouni's.
If it's his attempt at replicating my mindset then it's even worse than I thought. The fool literally twisted my words, contorted a quote to try to make it look like I said something scummy. Do you really have to stoop that low to make the self-evidently crappy point that I'm supposed to be scum because I'm not responding to people who point to me and say "you're scum!" when there's absolutely nothing worth responding to in that kind of accusation? And moreover, do I really have to explain why what I did is not scummy in such laborious detail for people to understand it?
Now it's your turn. Tell me why Cyouni is -not- scum.
I'm assuming that MtG:S sent its "best" players while mafiascum sent a mix of personalities who happen to also be considered good at the game. If that's the case, then Cyouni is the weak link by far. That vote on me (post 87) is criminal, and the rest of his content isn't good either.
---
Competing wagon go!
Unvote: Iso
Vote: Cyouni (L-6)
Because seriously, look at why he justified voting me for a playstyle lynch. (Page 6 Post 87)
The rest of his content is entirely useless, mostly barbs and rhetorical points that say nothing.
Wow, this is the first time I've seen OMGUS used properly. That's somewhere between amusing and sad.
Your defense is completely based around ad hom and "your case is bad and you should feel bad", so I'm just laughing over here.
Finally, correct me if I'm wrong, but your case consists solely of "you're bad, therefore you're scum". If that's correct, then please pardon me while I laugh at you calling other people bad.
My reasoning was trusting Cyan's meta read on you. Did you miss that...?
Query: Is it habitual to completely trust the reads of people you don't know the alignment of? Not to mention the fact that you have no idea whether it's correct or not.
You can say most things about most things. There's evidence behind what I said or I wouldn't have said it.
And yet you can't seem to provide it when asked. Amazing how that works.
Didn't != can't. I described the scummy behavior. Going through a first principles explanation of how your post makes you more likely scum wasn't worth giving up reading time.
You may have heard of something called burden of proof. It's actually required if you want to, you know, prove something.
A consensus that doesn't require much discussion with everyone getting to the same place in their own ways is generally a good thing. Players of the caliber in this game (at least on our end) typically do the work before voting, so when Vi tells me to vote X and gives no explanation I do feel motivated to vote them (or at least do my own research into why a great player like Vi thinks X is scum).
Generally, the second requires someone to state their reasoning. If you feel like voting X simply because someone tells you to, I've got a bridge to sell you.
(Though it would explain the tendency towards bandwagoning that I'm seeing.)
---
@Thor
I happen to know what Iso's referring to, and it's not a slip.
Also, I happen to disagree with him regarding the RVS section, but it doesn't mean much regarding his alignment.
I'm pretty sure that's a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. Would you like me to walk you through it like you're 2 so that there's no way you can misunderstand what I'm saying?
Yes, i would love that and am amazed you didn't do so immediately if you thought it was a misrep and also lean town on me. Please continue.
Oh, I just wanted an opportunity to be condescending. I'm not sure what aspect of "misrepresentation" equates to "not town", as town can also misrep arguments, too, but sure.
So anyway, just because I dislike a particular action a player takes doesn't mean it affects my view of their alignment. It can, but it doesn't necessarily mean that just because Player X posted something that I think is scummy means that they're either scum or that I should think they are. Given that I expressed my opinion of Nacho at the time as "need more content to determine", it amazes me that you failed to grasp that one thing I disliked about his play [at the time] does not equate to a scum read.
It doesn't bother me. Your playstyle does. The fact that you're asking DYH a question that only I could know the answer to is completely pointless.
I don't care what the factual answer is - I care what his perception answer is.
The question is not pointless.
The question is about scumhunting him, not you, so there's no point to ask you the question. I don't know what's confusing about that. I could start explaining things in a slow way too, but I would think the basic concept of 'ask questions to people you wish to scumhunt' is semi-universal. If you think it's meaningless why not sit back and see i it goes anywhere before awkwardly shoving yourself into the middle of it.
Why did you shove in so much?
Because I had a scum read on you at the time and didn't want you to have the potential to use what I saw as a loaded question against DYH, whom I currently have no read on (but was leaning town on at the time due to your push on him).
Okay, Thor. Let's say that I had reacted to your random vote - whether it be through questioning it, behaving hostilely towards you, or what have you. Please explain to me the following things:
How that is indicative of a town mindset
What I have to gain by responding to an RVS vote
1. Because town are curious about what is going on - it's called scumhunting.
2. To learn who I am, why I'm pushing you the way I am, and what my motives are...y'know, everything you're doing *right now* now that I called you out about not doing it earlier.
Or are you not trying to look like town now? (loaded question is awesome and loaded - scum!)
1. Given that I had absolutely no motive to be curious about your random vote on me, this point falls short of its mark.
2. Perhaps you don't understand what "RVS" means. RVS stands for "Random Voting Stage", and Mafia games (at least here) typically start off with one. Seeing as votes are random in RVS (hence the clever name!), votes such as my "your mom" exchange with DYH, I have (yes, have, not had) absolutely no reason to believe your initial vote on me was anything short of random and thus not worth responding to. Hell, more often than not, I ignore the first handful of votes on me that AREN'T in RVS.
I'm pretty sure I explained this when I was talking theory. Are you cherry-picking which posts of mine you read or did you just choose to ignore it because it didn't suit your anti-Iso agenda?
I'm pretty sure I dismissed your theory when you presented it, so...yeah, sure, clearly by not accepting everything you say as fact we have shown that I am evil. How rascally of me! I'll try not to commit the scumtell of 'disagreeing with Iso's presented game theories' in the future. I promise nothing.
I'm pretty sure "you're wrong because I say so" doesn't cut it. Once again, I'm not accusing you of being scum, but feel free to keep misrepresenting me, as it is demonstrating my point - that you are playing poorly.
Quote from Thor665 »
I will say at least one other player here on this site disagrees with your take of reality...y'know, appeal to majority and all that. Maybe you need hard evidence? Or not to state such an obviously false conclusion?
I read this and thought you were talking about yourself for a moment.
I'm actually almost offended that people think my scum game is this bad.
So...do you agree you've done scummy things, and we're just picking on you for "too obvious" ones now?
Because this is not what you were saying earlier, when you claimed you committed no scum acts at all.
Whassup?
No, I just recognize that I'm not as good as town. My individual accomplishments as scum are pretty impressive - but we can compare Mafia dicks later. There's no disconnect here (as you go on to say later), as I don't believe I've been scummy. But when I'm scum, I'm very rarely the first wagon of the Day, let alone the lynch.
So you think that Cyouni's issue is with your playstyle and not your mindset? Please explain. Also, please explain how my vote on you is different from Cyouni's.
This is the closest thing I've seen Iso do to playing like town all game.
@Iso: I didn't ask you what you thought of your wagon; I asked why I should think you're Town. On the whole your wagon looks pretty darn Town-driven for an early push.
My point is that due to the handful of obvious scum votes on my wagon as well as the fact that it's almost entirely MafiaScum players voting for me (perhaps a disconnect in site meta) that my wagon is garbage, and as such, that one should not be on it. Additionally, I'd like to think that my responses to pressure have been well-reasoned and from a town mindset. Thor is the only person explaining his push on me, so he's the only person whose points I can respond to. I'm offering what I believe to be a compelling defense and deconstructing the faulty premises on which my wagon has developed. I analyzed my wagon and provided reads from it. There has been minimal scumhunting for me to do aside from that, given that the popular thing from MS toDay seems to be "make a lot of posts that say nothing" and the hip trend from MTGS is "lurk harder". I can't give you much more beyond that, since we seem to disagree on the premise of whether or not my wagon is scum-driven.
Okay Iso. Let me try saying it like this.
YOU are seeing obvious scum votes on your wagon. I am seeing obvious Townies on your wagon.
More than likely both of us are not bloody insane. That's a lie. In my spare time I fly in clear blue skies with pooooofy arms. It's also possible that you're scumplaining about how waaaaaaah there are mean people wagoning me and I can't argue against them, but let's bet against that for a moment. But has it occurred to you that people from the same site can read each other better? When deciding what's going on with your wagon, you should probably take my word for it.
Then has it possibly occurred to you there's probably a reason why Cyan is the only MTGSer voting on my wagon? Perhaps you should take your own advice.
Quote from Vierni »
For what it's worth, Goofball's vote probably isn't a big deal. It's on something like page 3, she's deliberately posting contradictions, and without saying she's not scum I wouldn't call that vote conclusive evidence of much. Nacho see previous posts etc. Thor looks -quite- Town at this stage and it seems like your side is in agreement on Cyan. And frankly at this point I'm so incredibly, obviously, indefatigably Town that I'm honestly ashamed of myself because I don't want to be but someone has to post this to someone. Floof across the meta seas and suchlike.
I presume Goofball is Kami?
How do you know she's deliberately posting contradictions?
Is the vote paired with her anti-town behavior not conclusive to some degree?
You'll have to forgive me for not taking your word for it on you being town.
Quote from Vierni »
Quote from Iso 112 »
Quote from Vierni »
Competing wagon go!
Unvote: Iso
Vote: Cyouni (L-6)
Because seriously, look at why he justified voting me for a playstyle lynch. (Page 6 Post 87)
The rest of his content is entirely useless, mostly barbs and rhetorical points that say nothing.
So you think that Cyouni's issue is with your playstyle and not your mindset? Please explain. Also, please explain how my vote on you is different from Cyouni's.
If it's his attempt at replicating my mindset then it's even worse than I thought. The fool literally twisted my words, contorted a quote to try to make it look like I said something scummy. Do you really have to stoop that low to make the self-evidently crappy point that I'm supposed to be scum because I'm not responding to people who point to me and say "you're scum!" when there's absolutely nothing worth responding to in that kind of accusation? And moreover, do I really have to explain why what I did is not scummy in such laborious detail for people to understand it?
Yes.
I dunno about your play on MS, but I expect you to produce effort here.
Quote from Vierni »
Now it's your turn. Tell me why Cyouni is -not- scum.
I looked up the card Nath. (and felt clever I figured that much out)
The reference escapes me.
Is Nath also the name of a player who drops post walls or something?
Sarnath is a person who had a habit of posting what someone was going to say right before they say it. It can also loosely be used to refer to someone posting right before you in some capacity (e.g. Thor Nath'd me by posting a wall of text right before my submission, so I'll respond to that when I'm not occupied with something else).
Query: Is it habitual to completely trust the reads of people you don't know the alignment of? Not to mention the fact that you have no idea whether it's correct or not.
I think I like you.
Quote from Cyouni »
Generally, the second requires someone to state their reasoning. If you feel like voting X simply because someone tells you to, I've got a bridge to sell you.
(Though it would explain the tendency towards bandwagoning that I'm seeing.)
My issue with the mentality behind the bandwagoning that we've seen is that it doesn't hold players accountable for their votes. Anyone can say, "Oh yeah, well I thought he was scum because (insert rehash of weak argumentation someone else posted)" or something of that sort when their target flips town. It makes it easier for scum to hide on the wagon.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Wow, this is the first time I've seen OMGUS used properly. That's somewhere between amusing and sad.
Your defense is completely based around ad hom and "your case is bad and you should feel bad", so I'm just laughing over here.
Finally, correct me if I'm wrong, but your case consists solely of "you're bad, therefore you're scum". If that's correct, then please pardon me while I laugh at you calling other people bad.
...bad cases are somehow not scummy? I'm lost here.
You are indeed wrong. This is going to be one of those games where my respect for you will go way up if you turn out to be scum.
As for ad hom, no, you haven't -seen- ad hom yet. I don't want to go to a cross-site invitational and start flaming people I don't know. But dammit I'm tempted.
---
Quote from "Iso 126" »
Then has it possibly occurred to you there's probably a reason why Cyan is the only MTGSer voting on my wagon? Perhaps you should take your own advice.
Are you seriously, seriously the best M:tGS can offer?
Am I not THE person who has been worried about whether I'm being led by an unfamiliarity with site meta since the moment I voted you?
Have I not been the one engaging in discussions in good faith over how site meta can be used to better reads on unfamiliar players?
Have I not already unvoted you? Surely you could not have missed this.
And for God's sake, how the hell do you scumhunt? For the site that put out Azrael's relatively famous guide to scumhunting via motivations, it seems like the active M:tGS players here are propping their votes up for procedural reasons. We left the walls-of-explanatory-everything-and-voting-for-the-person-who-committed-the-most-objective-flaws phase in 2009 because it didn't work. So when you tell me to "produce effort", I tell you to read the bloody thread and either see what I see or say that I'm wrong because Cyouni wouldn't post something like ___ as scum or something.
Quote from "Iso 127" »
Also, Vierni, you did not answer my request. Please explain how my vote was different from Cyouni's.
Off the top of my head, I don't remember a difference. That's entirely irrelevant. I thought I saw something Townish in what you posted at some point (I don't even care to look back at what) and I decided to back off and work from the angle that you're Town. I'm not going to sit here and make a case on someone I don't want to pursue. It would make things ~complete~, but it would also be counterproductive (i.e. a waste of everyone's time). Does this sufficiently answer your query?
So I'm going to ask again. What do you think of Cyouni? If you don't have a definite answer, show what you're working with.
In re: Goofball - Indeed Kami of Lunacy. Posting bizarrely is more or less par for the course for her. If you want to vote her for it, make her dance; I don't care.
---
(Not an official vote count) Iso - 4 - Thor665, Cyan, Kami of Lunacy, Aggressive_Fate - (L-3) Vierni - 2 - Cyouni, Nachomamma8 - (L-5) Cyouni - 2 - Llamarble, Vierni - (L-5) Nachomamma8 - 2 - Voxxicus, Iso - (L-5) Kami of Lunacy - 1 - desCoures - (L-6) Thor665 - 1 - DYH - (L-6)
Oh, I just wanted an opportunity to be condescending.
So...basically when you responded to me and acted like what I had been saying had no merit and you had all these reasons to shoot it down...you were just...y'know...lying for comedic effect?
I could easily blast the rest of your post - but I want this one to be front and center right now.
A cute smilie isn't quite cutting it for me here.
I don't think you're that brilliant at being scum and that's why you get no pressure Day 1 - I think you're able to get away with this gak here for some reason.
DYH is probably town.
@DYH:
Please clarify "I would find this odd except I doubt there are only two scum and KoL just failed to list her scum buddy."
Kami mixing up cyouni / cyan is a possible tell / link; last time she said that in a game with me she was 'mixing up' Llamarble (her buddy) and Llamafluff (town).
Descoures posting so far is pretty eminently fakeable and pursues lines scum would go for; strong bid for DYH's spot on the scumteam.
What I meant was that if she had left out two names, it would have been A) quite funny and B) quite likely she "forgot" to include her scum partners. As it was just one name - and I didn't think of the Cyan/Cyouni confusion until it was stated - it struck me as just a harmless error.
Now what else exactly do you want me to address about your theory? Wasn't that whole thing directed at Vi? I was simply pointing out the error in your premise which became "oh, no big deal" above; except it is, since it's the foundation of a game-changing decision point you seem to think exists, which didn't seem all that serious to me.
I figured if you had the time to attack my theory you would be interested in seeing my replies and responding to them.
If you were only attacking me as part of a scum mudslinging mission let me know and I'll drop the question.
I was, and I still don't see that scenario as being the giant focal point you seem to think it was for reasons I've already covered. desCoures went a step further in explaining why your theory was nonsensical and convoluted.
Your subsequent response to desCoures comes across as :words:.
So yeah, I'm with dC on it feeling fabricated. That Iso is the biggest wagon has nothing to do with Vi unvoting him and voting you somehow projecting leadership onto you. I mean, I don't even- this isn't Chaos Theory, here.
As for whether Iso knows that about me, it's certainly possible; we've played in several games together.
Do you think this 'no reaction' thing is taken as a generic townish tell in your site meta?
Taking the question one further - do you think Iso has enough brain cells as scum to fake no reaction when he is scum, or would I almost definitely get him to react to it?
Yes, I suspect more people would think reacting to an RVS vote is scummy than would those who think ignoring it is.
Yes, I think Iso is very intelligent. He's also very self-absorbed; he likes the spotlight, whether he's scum or town. So I think his 'trying to make a good impression' comment is genuine. He's received plenty of feedback recently on how he can rub people the wrong way and I believe he wanted to change that for this game. That has no bearing on his alignment, but considering you're the driving force behind his wagon, I'm leaning town.
Nacho can run hot and cold as either alignment.
I don't actually think his vote is bad.
Voxx's analysis is itching my paranoia switch, but I'm not sure if that couldn't just be explained away by general dismissiveness. I'm dismissive of cases on me as town, it's how I react to them. Nacho does it semi-similar as I recall, he likes to avoid discussing things about him (which is usually my basis for lynching him).
I don't think it's a valid call at this point.
OK, so you're dismissive of cases on you as town. So why exactly are we bantering back and forth about my vote on you, then? Why didn't you just ignore me?
And back to the crux of my entire starting point, why didn't you ignore Vi's initial vote?
My reasoning was trusting Cyan's meta read on you. Did you miss that...?
Query: Is it habitual to completely trust the reads of people you don't know the alignment of? Not to mention the fact that you have no idea whether it's correct or not.
I have no problem with letting votes ride for a little while based on trusting other people. I don't have any idea whether it's true or not, but I assume bringing ISO closer to lynch will polarize the situation and get people to talk about him a little more.
That has no bearing on his alignment, but considering you're the driving force behind his wagon, I'm leaning town.
Do you have a read on Iso that doesn't have anything to do with who's pushing him?
I don't have a meta read on him because he's playing out of character; of course he claims he's immune to being meta'd anyhow.
As far as what I think of his content, I was slightly put off by his 'my claim will save me' bit followed by a refusal to claim, but his questioning efforts seem legit.
Ultimately, I have a very hard time getting past the Thor-led wagon.
Someone should probably let him in on the ISO reference at some point. Well, maybe not, that's kinda funny.
I still don't see that scenario as being the giant focal point you seem to think it was for reasons I've already covered.
Obviously, otherwise you'd be sheeping.
You have failed to have those reasons be so wonderful as to actually sell me that my reasoning is bad though - indeed you don't even really have any logic for it other than 'I disagree' so I'm certainly not sold.
Your subsequent response to desCoures comes across as :words:.
Brilliant rebuttal of my points.
It's amazing that I have not bowed to the reasoned wisdom of your arguments, really. Quite shocking, all around.
I am bemused that I am accussed of lacking logic.
Reasons are given.
I rebut those reasons with specific counter arguments.
And the reply is 'baaaaw, you lack logic...because!'
So yeah, I'm with dC on it feeling fabricated. That Iso is the biggest wagon has nothing to do with Vi unvoting him and voting you somehow projecting leadership onto you. I mean, I don't even- this isn't Chaos Theory, here.
Yes, it's Mafia. And here I sit in a leadership position with the largest wagon and you're hung up on me asking someone why they voted the way they did and then taking a meta game theory debate, disagreeing with it, and acting like it's a scumtell because you disagree with it.
Yes, I think Iso is very intelligent. He's also very self-absorbed; he likes the spotlight, whether he's scum or town. So I think his 'trying to make a good impression' comment is genuine. He's received plenty of feedback recently on how he can rub people the wrong way and I believe he wanted to change that for this game. That has no bearing on his alignment, but considering you're the driving force behind his wagon, I'm leaning town.
Wow.
Catch-22 isn't just for aviators, now it can be a basis of scumhunting theory.
Thor is bad for lacking logic though.
OK, so you're dismissive of cases on you as town. So why exactly are we bantering back and forth about my vote on you, then? Why didn't you just ignore me?
Oh, are 'ignore' and 'dismissive' synonyms then?
I hadn't realized.
You are aware I'm being *painfully* dismissive of you right now, right?
And back to the crux of my entire starting point, why didn't you ignore Vi's initial vote?
Why in the universe should I? I'm trying to scumhunt here.
I mean, I guess if you think it's pro-town to ignore a random given handful of votes that's your business. But I'm pretty sure that will hinder scumhunting.
What am I missing here, this seems so patently silly as a stance on its face that you can't possibly mean what I think you're meaning.
You *don't* think we should not pay attention to how people vote and why, right?
And if you don't believe that, what's the issue with what I did again? Spell it out, I feel like I must be missing your point. How was me questioning its flow scummy...and if it wasn't scummy why should I have ignored the vote?
Isn't your Vi scum case hinged on how she's reacting to presumed buddy Iso?
Don't start pulling the MtG crowd spiel of 'Player A suspects Player B, A is scummy for how they're pushing B who is town, B is townish because A is scum pushing them Catch-twenty-derp thing.
Iso's general demeanor right now seems very similar to what it was in Cyberpunk, as Cyouni noted. I will not be unvoting him.
If I were going to unvote him somehow, it would only be to vote Nacho, whom is managing to sound more like scum with every post. His last post is a great example. He has already somehow 'lost confidence' in a wagon that he was the 5th vote on anyway, and made zero meaningful contribution to. He didn't even analyze or assess the wagon in any relevant way, he just threw down the 5th vote, and is now clearly looking for a way to get away from it(gg guilty conscience).
Iso and Nacho are both thoroughly scummy in my mind, but in Iso's case, I have the benefit of metagame, and I don't think that this is him being town.
If this is supposed to be in reference to how your reads appear to ebb and flow with the tides, then I fully understand the concept of 'shifting reads'. The thing is, a number of your shifting reads don't seem to have any reason to be shifting.
Being 'tempted to drag out' a tell is dubious.
I don't care about the matters of 2, 3, or 4 votes.
Nacho does not tend to post as much as scum and has yet to post very much.
Kami / Vi are pretty much being Kami / Vi and both make fine sense as town.
Re:Vierni -
You voted Vierni in #36, and said Vierni was 'less scummy, but still sketchy' in #54. By #62, however, Vierni is suddenly fairly high up in your town roster, with only #57 being posted by the person in question in between. And I'm seeing absolutely nothing in #57 that makes Vierni look at all better, so what changed?
DYH is probably town.
@DYH:
Please clarify "I would find this odd except I doubt there are only two scum and KoL just failed to list her scum buddy."
Then here in post #95 DYH is now 'probably town', with only one post in between that could possibly have changed your opinion. What about this one post did so?
Kami mixing up cyouni / cyan is a possible tell / link; last time she said that in a game with me she was 'mixing up' Llamarble (her buddy) and Llamafluff (town).
Descoures posting so far is pretty eminently fakeable and pursues lines scum would go for; strong bid for DYH's spot on the scumteam.
Now this is interesting. Explain what about my posts is 'lines scum would go for', hmm? Or are you just trying to discredit the one person who's actively questioning you?
This reasoning is incredibly convoluted and makes little sense. Here's why:
1. Your postulation suggests that Vierni wanted Iso lynched, and decided to do so by.... unvoting someone else's wagon, and immediately voting [I]the person that just voted Iso, which would be you[/I]. That doesn't quite seem to parse logically. Granted, Vierni's action of immediately unvoting you when called on it and voting Iso makes that a bit more plausible... but at the time you made the post that Cyouni was asking about that had clearly not happened, nor have you raised that as support in the above.
2. Considering, again, that Vierni was [I]voting you[/I], how in the world does that equate to 'handing you control' of the so-called mega wagon?
That said, he took away a 3 vote wagon and left my preferred 4 vote wagon on the field.
That is a choice being made in the DYH/Iso dynamic in my opinion.
A rather large reason why none of this makes sense in the first place - the DYH 'wagon' was only ever at 2 votes, and at the point Vierni unvoted DYH and voted you, the Iso wagon was at 3 votes, [I]with you being the 3rd vote.[/I] You're trying to imply that you have deep and convoluted reasoning here, but when you get miscount something this obvious and fundamental that suggests instead that you're engaging in blatant fabrication.
The third one is more of what I was aiming towards, but the other two are good points as well.
...wait, what? [I]You[/I] made the second point yourself, in one of your previous posts. How have you forgotten that already?
Thor665: His posts read in an extremely scummy way to me, but taking an objective step back, based on a couple of things he's said, it's seeming more likely that he's been baiting for reactions to the Iso wagon than anything else. He's also been trying to get me to react to, well, anything, but I think he's just mislead in that respect. It's not enough to establish a solid town read on him but it's a point in his favor.
Cyan: Obvtown at this point for reasons stated above.
Vierni: Scum. No meaningful contributions to the game, bandwagon vote, etc.
Kami of Lunacy: Scum. She's tripping all over herself, making strange stances ("I like the vote on Thor but he's town"), and her vote on me was also awful.
Nachomomma8: Drawing a blank, here. Need more content to determine, though dislike the reasonless vote after not addressing any of my posts except the one where I ask about his avatar.
So, I'm at L-2, but this wagon is garbage. I'll claim if people aren't convinced by my wagon analysis.
....the bolded reads like a huge overstatement. I haven't liked KoL's votes either, but said player is currently V/LA and frankly hasn't posted enough of anything that you can at all say she's 'tripping all over herself'.
You also seem to be more nitpicking than responding in your latest posts. I don't get, for instance, why you needed to ask why Thor asked DYH that question about you.
1. Your postulation suggests that Vierni wanted Iso lynched, and decided to do so by.... unvoting someone else's wagon, and immediately voting [I]the person that just voted Iso, which would be you[/I]. That doesn't quite seem to parse logically. Granted, Vierni's action of immediately unvoting you when called on it and voting Iso makes that a bit more plausible... but at the time you made the post that Cyouni was asking about that had clearly not happened, nor have you raised that as support in the above.
I didn't discuss it because there were a couple of ways it could be taken.
The point being is she extroverted a towntell on Iso in reaction to me, but didn't state it and took actions that actually left me in a stronger position to get the town tell lynched - then later decided the town read was really scum or something.
There were probably some interesting things going through her head right then - and since my stance is "I'm curious why she's doing this and am asking questions about it" and not "this is a tell that means - XXX" I don't even understand why I'm failing to parse logically - I haven't advanced a conclusion - I've advanced the idea that it is potentially alignment telling as to why she did what she did.
Where's my flaw?
....okay, I... vaguely?... see your logic here. She voted you seemingly in response to you voting Iso, which would suggest she thought Iso was town, and yes, later reversed on that implication rather quickly by voting Iso. But given that she was voting [I]you[/I], that hardly feels like she was 'handing you control of the wagon', or even 'making a move on Iso by default'.
...although that does make the quick piggyback onto the Iso wagon look even worse. Hm.
2. Considering, again, that Vierni was [I]voting you[/I], how in the world does that equate to 'handing you control' of the so-called mega wagon?
Who had lead the biggest wagon after her vote?
Who leads the biggest wagon now?
I mean, maybe none of you here understand how wagons are formed and pushed, but...I mean, results seem to support my stance, yeah? I don't get the confusion. If the Iso wagon had immediately dissipated or something, sure, but it didn't. Maybe I'm just darn lucky and guessed what reality would be in a few days...or something...?
That had everything to do with you and Iso and little to do with Vierni. In fact, at the time Vierni voted you (and later voted Iso), I would have said Cyan was 'leading the Iso wagon' as much as you were. Results-oriented thinking is one thing, but after-the-fact events aren't helpful towards resolving [I]Vierni's mindset at the time[/I], which is what you seem to be asking about... or [I]the actual sincerity of your point[/I], which is what I'm trying to divine.
3. [snip] A rather large reason why none of this makes sense in the first place - the DYH 'wagon' was only ever at 2 votes, and at the point Vierni unvoted DYH and voted you, the Iso wagon was at 3 votes, [I]with you being the 3rd vote.[/I] You're trying to imply that you have deep and convoluted reasoning here, but when you get miscount something this obvious and fundamental that suggests instead that you're engaging in blatant fabrication.
I am fascinated that me recalling the specific vote counts (a 1 vote switch) is being touted as proof I messed stuff up...when apparently if I had pegged the numbers correctly there would be no issue. What you are arguing here is either I have a bad memory and that somehow invalidates everything (and, it doesn't - heck, for all you know I have number dyslexia [I do] and you're somehow suggesting that defeats my ability to assess logic [it doesn't]
That is a flawed attack.
The other argument you're making is that I had a point...but because the numbers were off my point is slightly weaker on some scale then it would have been if the numbers were correct. Even if this is so, it fails to defeat my point.
Am I missing something here?
Let's put it this way - you can possibly call 3 votes a major wagon in a mini. 2 votes, especially off RVS? That can barely be called a wagon at all. So you characterizing Vierni's vote on you as 'subtly pushing one major wagon over another' is flawed at best, and outright disingenuous at worst.
The other element of that, of course, was that from how lengthy your spiel on that characterization was, it implied you put a good deal of thought into that - which you blatantly getting the numbers wrong on a not-terribly difficult count seemed to contradict. If you say you have a medical condition, then fine. I can't gainsay your word on that, obviously. But your point is weaker, and by far.
Firstly, if you think Iso is scum, then why are you so concerned about Vierni supposedly 'making a strong move on Iso by default'?
I'm sorry, am I only allowed to scumhunt one person at a time and have to act like I am absolutely correct in all reads?
Congratulations, you have identified that I am town and am legit scumhunting - good work.
This question is silly.
...then riddle me this. If you can apparently pursue different people at the same time in this manner, then what exactly is the difference between this and what Vierni essentially did by shifting her vote from DYH, to you, to Iso? Because if you're applying double standards there, then there's most definitely something insincere about your attack.
...mmmh. Now that I think about it, this is a lot of talking about you talking about Vierni. I need to go look over Vierni again.
Secondly, do you have absolutely nothing to say about Kami of Lunacy immediately saying she changed her read of Iso to scum in response to you saying that Iso looked like scum to her?.... because that's your only in-thread interaction with her so far.
Oh, hey, look, I come from the same site DGB does, maybe I have knowledge about her meta that you don't.
No, I do not question that. Wait about three RL days and she'll call me scum because I typed out *sigh* or something.
She's a default permanent policy lynch till proven otherwise with me on MS - I see little value in scumhunting her because she thinks logic is teh scumz!
Give it a day or two and maybe you'll agree and we can do that policy lynch, let me know.
You do realize I do happen to think KoL is scummy right now, right?
I'm actually almost offended that people think my scum game is this bad.
So...do you agree you've done scummy things, and we're just picking on you for "too obvious" ones now?
Because this is not what you were saying earlier, when you claimed you committed no scum acts at all.
Whassup?
I want to specifically call this one out.
The mental disconnect here is messed up considering earlier today (real life day) he was denying anything he did at all was scummy.
Now people are running him up thinking he's 'this bad' which to my mind means "running him up on scumtells only newb scum would do"
Those thoughts don't mesh too well.
He knew he was being scummy. He denied being scummy.
I want a rope to report back to me with its findings on him.
...mmh. This is actually a good point, though.
(Also, re:Iso's scum in RVS statement... I find town screws up in RVS quite a lot as well. However, it's not something I'd expect out of most of the MtGS players in this game.... except maybe Cyouni. Heh.)
----------------------
Meh. I'm feeling slightly better about Thor, but worse about llamarble. Definitely worse about Iso and Cyouni. Still not sure if this is Redux Cyouni or Cyberspace Cyouni.
I wouldn't be averse to an Iso claim at this point.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Isn't your Vi scum case hinged on how she's reacting to presumed buddy Iso?
Don't start pulling the MtG crowd spiel of 'Player A suspects Player B, A is scummy for how they're pushing B who is town, B is townish because A is scum pushing them Catch-twenty-derp thing.
That's not why he thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
If I were going to unvote him somehow, it would only be to vote Nacho, whom is managing to sound more like scum with every post. His last post is a great example. He has already somehow 'lost confidence' in a wagon that he was the 5th vote on anyway, and made zero meaningful contribution to. He didn't even analyze or assess the wagon in any relevant way, he just threw down the 5th vote, and is now clearly looking for a way to get away from it(gg guilty conscience).
I can be confident in a wagon formed by fairly townie players and be the 5th person on it. You also don't need to make meaningful contribution to a wagon to be confident in it, believe it or not.
That's not why he thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
So you liked his vote on Vi, despite not having any idea what the reason for it is? Are you just going to claim scum soon?
And Iso's 'trying a new playstyle' argument doesn't sound sincere. Mostly because, from what I can tell, he is only trying it for this series of 3 games? Call me skeptical that someone would abandon the playstyle that they love for only a few games. Also, his tone/demeanor, all of the 'I wouldn't do this as scum' stuff just sounds soooo much like Cyberpunk. You can read up on him there, I got him lynched on like Day...1? 2 maybe. It was early enough that you can get the jist of it w/o re-reading the entire game.
That's not why he thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
So you liked his vote on Vi, despite not having any idea what the reason for it is? Are you just going to claim scum soon?
I liked the destination, not necessarily his reasons for going there. I've also played with him enough times to give a certain weight to his votes, no matter what reasoning he gives them.
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Also I think MS is showing stronger so far
Cyan seems good though.
I agree with Fate regarding people who are targeting KoL.
If Fate is town we will probably win; that is how these things normally go.
We just need to avoid repeating Revolution Mafia >_>
In other news, Nacho is still scum. More votes on him.
This was in response to this:
He cherry picked one thing, ignored the rest, and was...dismissive? Not entirely sure what the word I want is to describe the tone there, but I don't like it.
The mindset just isn't town - he did nothing to discern my own alignment there, after I'd just attacked him - just chastised me for not picking up anything on the gamestate? It's like he knows that I'm town and was subtly trying to make me think that I was wrong about the read.
He throws a vote on Iso despite... not really addressing anything Iso specific in the prior post - the closest he comes is questioning Cyan's remark on Iso.
When he realizes the wagon is at L-2, this pops out:
'Look how careful and townie I'm being!'
It feels forced.
I don't actually think his vote is bad.
Voxx's analysis is itching my paranoia switch, but I'm not sure if that couldn't just be explained away by general dismissiveness. I'm dismissive of cases on me as town, it's how I react to them. Nacho does it semi-similar as I recall, he likes to avoid discussing things about him (which is usually my basis for lynching him).
I don't think it's a valid call at this point.
Also, not that I'm judging how well you guys read and respond over here.
...but I'm judging.
Explain this more, please.
Iso strongly disagrees with you about how that's done here.
Is he crazy sauce, are you, or is he scum?
I'm not sure what there is to explain.
I find nothing objectionable about the vote and how it happened and the gamestate situation wherein it happened.
Yeah, I actually didn't dodge having a reaction to your random vote. There was nothing to react to. The fact that you keep harping on this is pretty awful.
Swing and a miss.
I'm pretty sure that's a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. Would you like me to walk you through it like you're 2 so that there's no way you can misunderstand what I'm saying?
It doesn't bother me. Your playstyle does. The fact that you're asking DYH a question that only I could know the answer to is completely pointless.
This is ridiculous.
Okay, Thor. Let's say that I had reacted to your random vote - whether it be through questioning it, behaving hostilely towards you, or what have you. Please explain to me the following things:
How that is indicative of a town mindset
What I have to gain by responding to an RVS vote
TIA.
I'm pretty sure I explained this when I was talking theory. Are you cherry-picking which posts of mine you read or did you just choose to ignore it because it didn't suit your anti-Iso agenda?
This is my experience with MafiaScum meta.
I'm actually almost offended that people think my scum game is this bad.
I am relatively certain that announcing such would bring unnecessary scrutiny my way early on, so why on earth would I do that?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
---
I'm assuming that MtG:S sent its "best" players while mafiascum sent a mix of personalities who happen to also be considered good at the game. If that's the case, then Cyouni is the weak link by far. That vote on me (post 87) is criminal, and the rest of his content isn't good either.
Or it could be that Thor and Llamarble's conclusions are correct. But I hope not.
---
@Iso: I didn't ask you what you thought of your wagon; I asked why I should think you're Town. On the whole your wagon looks pretty darn Town-driven for an early push.
---
@Cyan: You're the only MtG:Ser on the Iso wagon. Maybe you can speak the language of the cloudibirds. Why are you still on the wagon in contrast to your fellow sitegoers?
In re: Nacho and his voting style - It's not unusual either way, I think? I more closely associate it with scum-Nacho but I also recently played a game where Nacho was actually awesome-slash-Town and the scumteam got wrecked so my point of view may be slanted.
---
Competing wagon go!
Unvote: Iso
Vote: Cyouni (L-6)
Because seriously, look at why he justified voting me for a playstyle lynch. (Page 6 Post 87)
The rest of his content is entirely useless, mostly barbs and rhetorical points that say nothing.
---
(Not an official vote count)
Iso - 4 - Thor665, Cyan, Kami of Lunacy, Nachomamma8 - (L-3)
Vierni - 2 - Iso, Cyouni - (L-5)
Cyouni - 2 - Llamarble, Vierni - (L-5)
Kami of Lunacy - 1 - desCoures - (L-6)
Nachomamma8 - 1 - Voxxicus - (L-6)
Thor665 - 1 - DYH - (L-6)
Players not voting: Aggressive_Fate
I like how the votes are almost entirely split on site lines.
Certainly some of our best, sure. You're welcome to peruse the Crosstown thread to see how that developed.
My point is that due to the handful of obvious scum votes on my wagon as well as the fact that it's almost entirely MafiaScum players voting for me (perhaps a disconnect in site meta) that my wagon is garbage, and as such, that one should not be on it. Additionally, I'd like to think that my responses to pressure have been well-reasoned and from a town mindset. Thor is the only person explaining his push on me, so he's the only person whose points I can respond to. I'm offering what I believe to be a compelling defense and deconstructing the faulty premises on which my wagon has developed. I analyzed my wagon and provided reads from it. There has been minimal scumhunting for me to do aside from that, given that the popular thing from MS toDay seems to be "make a lot of posts that say nothing" and the hip trend from MTGS is "lurk harder". I can't give you much more beyond that, since we seem to disagree on the premise of whether or not my wagon is scum-driven.
So you think that Cyouni's issue is with your playstyle and not your mindset? Please explain. Also, please explain how my vote on you is different from Cyouni's.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
DYH's posts pinged for me when he was defending ISO, but waned somewhat when he likened his normal D1 play as bulldogish. Going to look a little deeper now.
I'm finding this to be pretty town so far. I find the frustration in playing a different game but finding people town for picking up on the strangeness in their posting to be town as ****; it's a weak defense as scum to say "oh yeah this is definitely scummy" and I find I have the tendency to mention these types of things far more often in a cold town game than I would in a scumgame.
My reasoning was trusting Cyan's meta read on you. Did you miss that...?
Expand on this a little bit? DC is probably my strongest MTGS town read.
Yeah, but I'm assuming they would have a bit more familiarity with ISO than we would and thus a bit more accuracy. Or a bit more interest, something.
"I'm not sure that I agree with the premise of the ISO wagon" is horribly fencey and doesn't show any sort of indication that it's worth my trust. You calling me scum off gut based on tone for being terse will always always always be ignored because I am a terse player and that revelation is not so amazing to me. The DC read was interesting to me because I recently picked up a pretty strong town read on him and your reinforcement was nice, considering you two seem to have some experience together.
What did you expect me to pick up on that I haven't so far?
I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that it was concerning to you [because you thought Cyan was scum].
Also, my name still only has one capital letter.
Something bothers me about this but I can't quite put my finger on it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This post comes off as a bit awkward to me. DYH doesn't have any real reason to call Thor's reaction an overreaction (as demonstrated by the "you're scum because you're scum" bit), and the "bandwagon mentality" is just useless additional filler that I'm not really a fan of. A few people have strongly disliked bandwagon votes so far, but that's usually been the primary reason as opposed to an afterthought.
Here's an odd cherrypick.
I don't think the point changes at two votes or three votes, but I'm too lazy and not interested enough to see how many you got early on.
Leaning scum on DYH still, but not interested in going there yet.
Vote: Vierni
Yes, i would love that and am amazed you didn't do so immediately if you thought it was a misrep and also lean town on me. Please continue.
I don't care what the factual answer is - I care what his perception answer is.
The question is not pointless.
The question is about scumhunting him, not you, so there's no point to ask you the question. I don't know what's confusing about that. I could start explaining things in a slow way too, but I would think the basic concept of 'ask questions to people you wish to scumhunt' is semi-universal. If you think it's meaningless why not sit back and see i it goes anywhere before awkwardly shoving yourself into the middle of it.
Why did you shove in so much?
1. Because town are curious about what is going on - it's called scumhunting.
2. To learn who I am, why I'm pushing you the way I am, and what my motives are...y'know, everything you're doing *right now* now that I called you out about not doing it earlier.
Or are you not trying to look like town now? (loaded question is awesome and loaded - scum!)
This is Amazing? Yes.
I'm pretty sure I dismissed your theory when you presented it, so...yeah, sure, clearly by not accepting everything you say as fact we have shown that I am evil. How rascally of me! I'll try not to commit the scumtell of 'disagreeing with Iso's presented game theories' in the future. I promise nothing.
I will say at least one other player here on this site disagrees with your take of reality...y'know, appeal to majority and all that. Maybe you need hard evidence? Or not to state such an obviously false conclusion?
So...do you agree you've done scummy things, and we're just picking on you for "too obvious" ones now?
Because this is not what you were saying earlier, when you claimed you committed no scum acts at all.
Whassup?
This is the closest thing I've seen Iso do to playing like town all game.
Haven't you been listening to Iso?
The proper way to play town is to react to nothing in RVS, for only scum react to stuff.
This means they're all town.
Duh.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I want to specifically call this one out.
The mental disconnect here is messed up considering earlier today (real life day) he was denying anything he did at all was scummy.
Now people are running him up thinking he's 'this bad' which to my mind means "running him up on scumtells only newb scum would do"
Those thoughts don't mesh too well.
He knew he was being scummy. He denied being scummy.
I want a rope to report back to me with its findings on him.
YOU are seeing obvious scum votes on your wagon.
I am seeing obvious Townies on your wagon.
More than likely both of us are not bloody insane. That's a lie. In my spare time I fly in clear blue skies with pooooofy arms. It's also possible that you're scumplaining about how waaaaaaah there are mean people wagoning me and I can't argue against them, but let's bet against that for a moment. But has it occurred to you that people from the same site can read each other better? When deciding what's going on with your wagon, you should probably take my word for it.
For what it's worth, Goofball's vote probably isn't a big deal. It's on something like page 3, she's deliberately posting contradictions, and without saying she's not scum I wouldn't call that vote conclusive evidence of much. Nacho see previous posts etc. Thor looks -quite- Town at this stage and it seems like your side is in agreement on Cyan. And frankly at this point I'm so incredibly, obviously, indefatigably Town that I'm honestly ashamed of myself because I don't want to be but someone has to post this to someone. Floof across the meta seas and suchlike.
If it's his attempt at replicating my mindset then it's even worse than I thought. The fool literally twisted my words, contorted a quote to try to make it look like I said something scummy. Do you really have to stoop that low to make the self-evidently crappy point that I'm supposed to be scum because I'm not responding to people who point to me and say "you're scum!" when there's absolutely nothing worth responding to in that kind of accusation? And moreover, do I really have to explain why what I did is not scummy in such laborious detail for people to understand it?
Now it's your turn. Tell me why Cyouni is -not- scum.
The reference escapes me.
Is Nath also the name of a player who drops post walls or something?
Also, looks like I missed some posts. You lose, Nacho.
Your defense is completely based around ad hom and "your case is bad and you should feel bad", so I'm just laughing over here.
Finally, correct me if I'm wrong, but your case consists solely of "you're bad, therefore you're scum". If that's correct, then please pardon me while I laugh at you calling other people bad.
Query: Is it habitual to completely trust the reads of people you don't know the alignment of? Not to mention the fact that you have no idea whether it's correct or not.
You may have heard of something called burden of proof. It's actually required if you want to, you know, prove something.
Generally, the second requires someone to state their reasoning. If you feel like voting X simply because someone tells you to, I've got a bridge to sell you.
(Though it would explain the tendency towards bandwagoning that I'm seeing.)
---
@Thor
I happen to know what Iso's referring to, and it's not a slip.
Also, I happen to disagree with him regarding the RVS section, but it doesn't mean much regarding his alignment.
The only thing I called a slip was in how he was communicating with me insomuch as he admitted awareness that I wasn't being useless.
What slip are you discussing and can you expand on why it isn't?
Oh, I just wanted an opportunity to be condescending. I'm not sure what aspect of "misrepresentation" equates to "not town", as town can also misrep arguments, too, but sure.
So anyway, just because I dislike a particular action a player takes doesn't mean it affects my view of their alignment. It can, but it doesn't necessarily mean that just because Player X posted something that I think is scummy means that they're either scum or that I should think they are. Given that I expressed my opinion of Nacho at the time as "need more content to determine", it amazes me that you failed to grasp that one thing I disliked about his play [at the time] does not equate to a scum read.
Because I had a scum read on you at the time and didn't want you to have the potential to use what I saw as a loaded question against DYH, whom I currently have no read on (but was leaning town on at the time due to your push on him).
1. Given that I had absolutely no motive to be curious about your random vote on me, this point falls short of its mark.
2. Perhaps you don't understand what "RVS" means. RVS stands for "Random Voting Stage", and Mafia games (at least here) typically start off with one. Seeing as votes are random in RVS (hence the clever name!), votes such as my "your mom" exchange with DYH, I have (yes, have, not had) absolutely no reason to believe your initial vote on me was anything short of random and thus not worth responding to. Hell, more often than not, I ignore the first handful of votes on me that AREN'T in RVS.
I'm pretty sure "you're wrong because I say so" doesn't cut it. Once again, I'm not accusing you of being scum, but feel free to keep misrepresenting me, as it is demonstrating my point - that you are playing poorly.
I read this and thought you were talking about yourself for a moment.
No, I just recognize that I'm not as good as town. My individual accomplishments as scum are pretty impressive - but we can compare Mafia dicks later. There's no disconnect here (as you go on to say later), as I don't believe I've been scummy. But when I'm scum, I'm very rarely the first wagon of the Day, let alone the lynch.
Then has it possibly occurred to you there's probably a reason why Cyan is the only MTGSer voting on my wagon? Perhaps you should take your own advice.
I presume Goofball is Kami?
How do you know she's deliberately posting contradictions?
Is the vote paired with her anti-town behavior not conclusive to some degree?
You'll have to forgive me for not taking your word for it on you being town.
Yes.
I dunno about your play on MS, but I expect you to produce effort here.
I'm still determining what I think of Cyouni.
Sarnath is a person who had a habit of posting what someone was going to say right before they say it. It can also loosely be used to refer to someone posting right before you in some capacity (e.g. Thor Nath'd me by posting a wall of text right before my submission, so I'll respond to that when I'm not occupied with something else).
I think I like you.
My issue with the mentality behind the bandwagoning that we've seen is that it doesn't hold players accountable for their votes. Anyone can say, "Oh yeah, well I thought he was scum because (insert rehash of weak argumentation someone else posted)" or something of that sort when their target flips town. It makes it easier for scum to hide on the wagon.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That's not my style. The impression I get from your posts from skimming is how I get my reads and it lets me not get caught up in technical bull****
and this reaction is even worse. Unwilling to call me scum because of my as-advertised-aggressive nature, it just keeps adding up
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
oh my god marble I literally blocked this game from my memory and just seeing the flips makes me relecutant to re-read it
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
Vote: ISO FULL ENGINES GO
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
I was referring to this, which you seemed to think was a slip of some sort.
I'm not going to say why, specifically because Iso should be the one doing so.
@Iso: What about Cyberpunk? As I recall, you said the exact same thing there.
You are indeed wrong. This is going to be one of those games where my respect for you will go way up if you turn out to be scum.
As for ad hom, no, you haven't -seen- ad hom yet. I don't want to go to a cross-site invitational and start flaming people I don't know. But dammit I'm tempted.
---
Are you seriously, seriously the best M:tGS can offer?
Am I not THE person who has been worried about whether I'm being led by an unfamiliarity with site meta since the moment I voted you?
Have I not been the one engaging in discussions in good faith over how site meta can be used to better reads on unfamiliar players?
Have I not already unvoted you? Surely you could not have missed this.
And for God's sake, how the hell do you scumhunt? For the site that put out Azrael's relatively famous guide to scumhunting via motivations, it seems like the active M:tGS players here are propping their votes up for procedural reasons. We left the walls-of-explanatory-everything-and-voting-for-the-person-who-committed-the-most-objective-flaws phase in 2009 because it didn't work. So when you tell me to "produce effort", I tell you to read the bloody thread and either see what I see or say that I'm wrong because Cyouni wouldn't post something like ___ as scum or something.
Off the top of my head, I don't remember a difference. That's entirely irrelevant. I thought I saw something Townish in what you posted at some point (I don't even care to look back at what) and I decided to back off and work from the angle that you're Town. I'm not going to sit here and make a case on someone I don't want to pursue. It would make things ~complete~, but it would also be counterproductive (i.e. a waste of everyone's time). Does this sufficiently answer your query?
So I'm going to ask again. What do you think of Cyouni? If you don't have a definite answer, show what you're working with.
In re: Goofball - Indeed Kami of Lunacy. Posting bizarrely is more or less par for the course for her. If you want to vote her for it, make her dance; I don't care.
---
(Not an official vote count)
Iso - 4 - Thor665, Cyan, Kami of Lunacy, Aggressive_Fate - (L-3)
Vierni - 2 - Cyouni, Nachomamma8 - (L-5)
Cyouni - 2 - Llamarble, Vierni - (L-5)
Nachomamma8 - 2 - Voxxicus, Iso - (L-5)
Kami of Lunacy - 1 - desCoures - (L-6)
Thor665 - 1 - DYH - (L-6)
So...basically when you responded to me and acted like what I had been saying had no merit and you had all these reasons to shoot it down...you were just...y'know...lying for comedic effect?
I could easily blast the rest of your post - but I want this one to be front and center right now.
A cute smilie isn't quite cutting it for me here.
I don't think you're that brilliant at being scum and that's why you get no pressure Day 1 - I think you're able to get away with this gak here for some reason.
Noting this all with interest.
If he flips scum you are next (regardless of what Fate is seeing with Vi), but I'm willing to listen anyway.
What I meant was that if she had left out two names, it would have been A) quite funny and B) quite likely she "forgot" to include her scum partners. As it was just one name - and I didn't think of the Cyan/Cyouni confusion until it was stated - it struck me as just a harmless error.
Duly noted on the previous mix-up.
I was, and I still don't see that scenario as being the giant focal point you seem to think it was for reasons I've already covered. desCoures went a step further in explaining why your theory was nonsensical and convoluted.
Your subsequent response to desCoures comes across as :words:.
So yeah, I'm with dC on it feeling fabricated. That Iso is the biggest wagon has nothing to do with Vi unvoting him and voting you somehow projecting leadership onto you. I mean, I don't even- this isn't Chaos Theory, here.
Yes, I suspect more people would think reacting to an RVS vote is scummy than would those who think ignoring it is.
Yes, I think Iso is very intelligent. He's also very self-absorbed; he likes the spotlight, whether he's scum or town. So I think his 'trying to make a good impression' comment is genuine. He's received plenty of feedback recently on how he can rub people the wrong way and I believe he wanted to change that for this game. That has no bearing on his alignment, but considering you're the driving force behind his wagon, I'm leaning town.
OK, so you're dismissive of cases on you as town. So why exactly are we bantering back and forth about my vote on you, then? Why didn't you just ignore me?
And back to the crux of my entire starting point, why didn't you ignore Vi's initial vote?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Your disapproval doesn't hurt as much as I thought it would.
I have no problem with letting votes ride for a little while based on trusting other people. I don't have any idea whether it's true or not, but I assume bringing ISO closer to lynch will polarize the situation and get people to talk about him a little more.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
Do you have a read on Iso that doesn't have anything to do with who's pushing him?
I liked your Vi vote. I lost confidence in an ISO vote a little while ago.
I don't have a meta read on him because he's playing out of character; of course he claims he's immune to being meta'd anyhow.
As far as what I think of his content, I was slightly put off by his 'my claim will save me' bit followed by a refusal to claim, but his questioning efforts seem legit.
Ultimately, I have a very hard time getting past the Thor-led wagon.
Someone should probably let him in on the ISO reference at some point. Well, maybe not, that's kinda funny.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Obviously, otherwise you'd be sheeping.
You have failed to have those reasons be so wonderful as to actually sell me that my reasoning is bad though - indeed you don't even really have any logic for it other than 'I disagree' so I'm certainly not sold.
And I pointed out how that was silly and lacked logic - yes.
Brilliant rebuttal of my points.
It's amazing that I have not bowed to the reasoned wisdom of your arguments, really. Quite shocking, all around.
I am bemused that I am accussed of lacking logic.
Reasons are given.
I rebut those reasons with specific counter arguments.
And the reply is 'baaaaw, you lack logic...because!'
Yes, it's Mafia. And here I sit in a leadership position with the largest wagon and you're hung up on me asking someone why they voted the way they did and then taking a meta game theory debate, disagreeing with it, and acting like it's a scumtell because you disagree with it.
I do even - and I think it's pretty derp.
What am I missing here?
Wow.
Catch-22 isn't just for aviators, now it can be a basis of scumhunting theory.
Thor is bad for lacking logic though.
Oh, are 'ignore' and 'dismissive' synonyms then?
I hadn't realized.
You are aware I'm being *painfully* dismissive of you right now, right?
Why in the universe should I? I'm trying to scumhunt here.
I mean, I guess if you think it's pro-town to ignore a random given handful of votes that's your business. But I'm pretty sure that will hinder scumhunting.
What am I missing here, this seems so patently silly as a stance on its face that you can't possibly mean what I think you're meaning.
You *don't* think we should not pay attention to how people vote and why, right?
And if you don't believe that, what's the issue with what I did again? Spell it out, I feel like I must be missing your point. How was me questioning its flow scummy...and if it wasn't scummy why should I have ignored the vote?
Halp!
I thought this is what we were doing before we did that whole lynch actual vi scum
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
Don't start pulling the MtG crowd spiel of 'Player A suspects Player B, A is scummy for how they're pushing B who is town, B is townish because A is scum pushing them Catch-twenty-derp thing.
If I were going to unvote him somehow, it would only be to vote Nacho, whom is managing to sound more like scum with every post. His last post is a great example. He has already somehow 'lost confidence' in a wagon that he was the 5th vote on anyway, and made zero meaningful contribution to. He didn't even analyze or assess the wagon in any relevant way, he just threw down the 5th vote, and is now clearly looking for a way to get away from it(gg guilty conscience).
Iso and Nacho are both thoroughly scummy in my mind, but in Iso's case, I have the benefit of metagame, and I don't think that this is him being town.
If this is supposed to be in reference to how your reads appear to ebb and flow with the tides, then I fully understand the concept of 'shifting reads'. The thing is, a number of your shifting reads don't seem to have any reason to be shifting.
Re:Vierni -
You voted Vierni in #36, and said Vierni was 'less scummy, but still sketchy' in #54. By #62, however, Vierni is suddenly fairly high up in your town roster, with only #57 being posted by the person in question in between. And I'm seeing absolutely nothing in #57 that makes Vierni look at all better, so what changed?
Re: DYH -
You had DYH in your scum group of 3 in #62, above.
Then here in post #95 DYH is now 'probably town', with only one post in between that could possibly have changed your opinion. What about this one post did so?
Now this is interesting. Explain what about my posts is 'lines scum would go for', hmm? Or are you just trying to discredit the one person who's actively questioning you?
Point noted on KoL, however.
@Cyouni
...wait, what? [I]You[/I] made the second point yourself, in one of your previous posts. How have you forgotten that already?
@Iso
....the bolded reads like a huge overstatement. I haven't liked KoL's votes either, but said player is currently V/LA and frankly hasn't posted enough of anything that you can at all say she's 'tripping all over herself'.
You also seem to be more nitpicking than responding in your latest posts. I don't get, for instance, why you needed to ask why Thor asked DYH that question about you.
That doesn't give me confidence in you.
@Thor665
....okay, I... vaguely?... see your logic here. She voted you seemingly in response to you voting Iso, which would suggest she thought Iso was town, and yes, later reversed on that implication rather quickly by voting Iso. But given that she was voting [I]you[/I], that hardly feels like she was 'handing you control of the wagon', or even 'making a move on Iso by default'.
...although that does make the quick piggyback onto the Iso wagon look even worse. Hm.
That had everything to do with you and Iso and little to do with Vierni. In fact, at the time Vierni voted you (and later voted Iso), I would have said Cyan was 'leading the Iso wagon' as much as you were. Results-oriented thinking is one thing, but after-the-fact events aren't helpful towards resolving [I]Vierni's mindset at the time[/I], which is what you seem to be asking about... or [I]the actual sincerity of your point[/I], which is what I'm trying to divine.
Let's put it this way - you can possibly call 3 votes a major wagon in a mini. 2 votes, especially off RVS? That can barely be called a wagon at all. So you characterizing Vierni's vote on you as 'subtly pushing one major wagon over another' is flawed at best, and outright disingenuous at worst.
The other element of that, of course, was that from how lengthy your spiel on that characterization was, it implied you put a good deal of thought into that - which you blatantly getting the numbers wrong on a not-terribly difficult count seemed to contradict. If you say you have a medical condition, then fine. I can't gainsay your word on that, obviously. But your point is weaker, and by far.
...then riddle me this. If you can apparently pursue different people at the same time in this manner, then what exactly is the difference between this and what Vierni essentially did by shifting her vote from DYH, to you, to Iso? Because if you're applying double standards there, then there's most definitely something insincere about your attack.
...mmmh. Now that I think about it, this is a lot of talking about you talking about Vierni. I need to go look over Vierni again.
You do realize I do happen to think KoL is scummy right now, right?
Still, noted.
...mmh. This is actually a good point, though.
(Also, re:Iso's scum in RVS statement... I find town screws up in RVS quite a lot as well. However, it's not something I'd expect out of most of the MtGS players in this game.... except maybe Cyouni. Heh.)
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Meh. I'm feeling slightly better about Thor, but worse about llamarble. Definitely worse about Iso and Cyouni. Still not sure if this is Redux Cyouni or Cyberspace Cyouni.
I wouldn't be averse to an Iso claim at this point.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I've seen more than enough from ISo. Every one else will come over when scum starts breaking.
That's not why he thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
I can be confident in a wagon formed by fairly townie players and be the 5th person on it. You also don't need to make meaningful contribution to a wagon to be confident in it, believe it or not.
Saving this for a later date.
So you liked his vote on Vi, despite not having any idea what the reason for it is? Are you just going to claim scum soon?
And Iso's 'trying a new playstyle' argument doesn't sound sincere. Mostly because, from what I can tell, he is only trying it for this series of 3 games? Call me skeptical that someone would abandon the playstyle that they love for only a few games. Also, his tone/demeanor, all of the 'I wouldn't do this as scum' stuff just sounds soooo much like Cyberpunk. You can read up on him there, I got him lynched on like Day...1? 2 maybe. It was early enough that you can get the jist of it w/o re-reading the entire game.
I liked the destination, not necessarily his reasons for going there. I've also played with him enough times to give a certain weight to his votes, no matter what reasoning he gives them.