I really think the card CAN be fine if you include plenty of ways of dealing with it. I can think of 20 that most cubes run. The list is probably longer. IF you dont account for it in your cube it will likely be too good.
I guess that list isn't terribly short, but it's not exactly plentiful. I think my biggest issue is that the card just seems boring to play with and aggravating to play against. I don't draft blue decks to play cards like this, anyway.
Other ways to deal with him that appear in lists include:
Akroma's Vengeance
Awkward Command
Rout
Hallowed Burial
Black Sun's Zenith
Diabolic Edict
Chainer's Edict
Barter in Blood
Innocent Blood
Fleshbag Marauder
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Far//Away
Oblivion Stone
Mindslaver, in a fashion
There are more that can certainly deal with him but just aren't very played anymore (like Flowstone Slide or Wing Shards). I'm sure there are more, but I can't remember any since I'm in school...shh!
I guess that list isn't terribly short, but it's not exactly plentiful. I think my biggest issue is that the card just seems boring to play with and aggravating to play against. I don't draft blue decks to play cards like this, anyway.
Your blue decks don't have boring and annoying cards to play with/vs. like counterspells?
Your blue decks don't have boring and annoying cards to play with/vs. like counterspells?
-AA
Well... I enjoy playing with/against counterspells in Cube because the Cube isn't so chock full of them that the control player always has one. My 300 Cube has 11 if you count Venser, Shaper Savant and Glen Elendra Archmage. A lot of mental games revolve around baiting out counters, when to play a counter and when to hold it, etc. Plus, they're one-and-done barring a Snapcaster or Regrowth.
TNN is more along the lines of Winter Orb and Mind Twist as far as non-fun goes... but then again I Cube with those cards. Maybe it's just "new card bias," bias against "unexciting" creatures, or bias against what I view as poor design (flavor is spot-on, though). I just don't really like the card.
I guess that list isn't terribly short, but it's not exactly plentiful. I think my biggest issue is that the card just seems boring to play with and aggravating to play against. I don't draft blue decks to play cards like this, anyway.
That is 15 out of 300, plus counterspells. Not exactly a short list.
Other ways to deal with him that appear in lists include:
Akroma's Vengeance
Awkward Command
Rout
Hallowed Burial
Black Sun's Zenith
Diabolic Edict
Chainer's Edict
Barter in Blood
Innocent Blood
Fleshbag Marauder
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Far//Away
Oblivion Stone
Mindslaver, in a fashion
There are more that can certainly deal with him but just aren't very played anymore (like Flowstone Slide or Wing Shards). I'm sure there are more, but I can't remember any since I'm in school...shh!
Your blue decks don't have boring and annoying cards to play with/vs. like counterspells?
-AA
Also Ratchet Bomb is played in a lot of lists, and Powder Keg in a few.
Difficult to interact with, especially in larger cubes where density of answers goes down
Requires no skill or build-around to win the game
Doesn't really "feel" blue to me
My ideal cube cards are powerful build-arounds (e.g., Winter Orb) or medium power, flexible cards (e.g., removal, Solemn Simulacrum.) I don't like that TNN is both powerful and flexible. It also feels more white to me. So, mostly for aesthetic reasons, I'm leaning towards not including it.
If you play other powerful broken cards, there's no reason to exclude this guy. He's a great creature. Non-interactive? Sure. But that's not a big deal in the land of Balances, Geddons, Jittes, Moats, Sol Rings, and other amazing cards.
I faced this card in two games this evening. My deck was well set to deal with it, through a combination of Balance, Smallpox, Upheaval and other things.
Knowing it is a tough card made it all the more satisfying to beat. Although I lost 2:1 in the match, it wasn't because of TNN (Detention Sphere was my undoing in both games I lost).
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
There was no way this thing was ever remotely close to getting added to my list. Much like Jace 3.0, I have a feeling we'll start to see people slowly cutting this as people become exposed to it.
For those claiming to be excluding this card due to it being "noninteractive", I feel like you should also be excluding anything with hexproof or shroud, Eureka, Tinker, Natual Order, reanimation spells and any other ways you might have to bring a creature into play several turns earlier than intended. Not to mention the other normal offenders of this in fast mana, Mind Twist, Moat, Armageddon, etc. I see no reason to continue running these types of spells if you exclude TNN for being nonintereactive.
I play some broken cards, but I don't think all broken cards are created equal.
I think about broken cards in four categories:
1) Some assembly required, e.g., Balance, Armageddon, Natural Order, Tinker - These cards are busted but require other pieces to be drafted, a specific archetype, or a certain game state. In other words, I think they take some skill to set up.
2) Villains, e.g., Umezawa's Jitte, Jace the Mindsculptor, Reoccuring Nightmare - These are cards that are universally good, great P1P1 picks, and almost always played in that color. They make the player playing them feel powerful and create a little mini-game for the opponent to try to beat them.
3) One Card Combos, e.g., Mind Twist, Library of Alexandria - These are a lot like the Villains, but they lack interactivity, or just don't seem fun to play against. You play them, you almost always win, and the opponent doesn't have the feeling that they can beat them.
4) Rule Breakers, e.g., Black Lotus, Mana Drain - these cards feel like they break some rule of the game or just don't seem like they work right.
Obviously, 2-4 are somewhat subjective, and I am wondering whether TNN fits in category 2 or category 3. My hunch is that it's a category 3, but I don't know. I will probably hold off and see it in action first.
There was no way this thing was ever remotely close to getting added to my list. Much like Jace 3.0, I have a feeling we'll start to see people slowly cutting this as people become exposed to it.
I cut Jace for not being good enough, otherwise it'd still be in there. If you run Mind Twist, Sol Ring, Balance, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Jace 2, Jitte, so on and so on, True-Name Nemesis is the least of your worries.
This card isn't that far off from Thrun, actually. It's unblockable, but it can be countered and destroyed with mass destruction effects. It doesn't need to be banned for powerlevel at all, unless you also ban a metric ton of other cube cards for being "too good".
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
This discussion could easily just turn into what our normal "Powered is bettah!" "Unpowered is bettah!" debacles, so I hope that doesn't happen.
The important thing here is just play the cards you want to play. If you don't like TNN for whatever reason, then don't play it. But I'm of the opinion that I like cards like this in my cube. I like playing with them and I like the feeling I get when I beat them. I also think that if you draw a line in the sand and put this card on the other side of that line, then there are a lot of comparable cards that should be over there as well.
I cut Jace for not being good enough, otherwise it'd still be in there.
I never said anything about Jace 3.0 being good.
This card isn't that far off from Thrun, actually. It's unblockable, but it can be countered and destroyed with mass destruction effects. It doesn't need to be banned for powerlevel at all, unless you also ban a metric ton of other cube cards for being "too good".
This card isn't even on the same planet as Thrun in terms of power-level and function, but that's honestly neither here nor there. TNN doesn't get a mark against it on power-level alone, and that's why I dislike it as a cube card. It fails multiple litmus tests for good design as outlined in Parnell's article.
I'm certainly going to try it and see how big an offender it is. I'm all for cutting non-interactive/un-fun cards, but opening one of my Mind Seizes for one is going to be a win either way. I still maintain (and said as much on the podcast) that in any other color it would be a huge offender, but blue being the least aggressive of my colors makes me want to see how offensive it is to my Cubing sensibilities.
I can certainly see JP and Kranny's point; however, I'm trying to be less anecdotal in my opinions and more in the 'testing' camp.
You compared Jace 3.0 to TNN, which could easily be mistaken for saying that Jace 3.0 is good.
I don't really think it's a powered vs unpowered debate, either. I do, however, feel like the people (like yourself and Parnell) who generally fall on the unpowered side of that debate will also be the people who choose not to play True-Name Nemesis due to it being hard to interact with and very powerful if unanswered. That's why I think this conversation (debate?) could easily fall into that side of the table vs this side of the table and basically be a repeat of any discussion we've ever had around here about Moat.
That's why I think this conversation (debate?) could easily fall into that side of the table vs this side of the table and basically be a repeat of any discussion we've ever had around here about Moat.
Aww, you don't want to have that debate again? Not even a little bit?
Personal opinion -- I won't be playing this card for two reasons: (a) it doesn't look fun. (b) blue probably doesn't need more support in my cube.
I'm certainly going to try it and see how big an offender it is. I'm all for cutting non-interactive/un-fun cards, but opening one of my Mind Seizes for one is going to be a win either way. I still maintain (and said as much on the podcast) that in any other color it would be a huge offender, but blue being the least aggressive of my colors makes me want to see how offensive it is to my Cubing sensibilities.
I can certainly see JP and Kranny's point; however, I'm trying to be less anecdotal in my opinions and more in the 'testing' camp.
-AA
I am with Antknee on this. I want to see it in action first. Im not part of any hive mind, if the card ends up being unfun I will cut it. But I wont not include just because Parnell or anyone else doesnt like it.
So far, I've seen TNN in action in two matches. The first was against control, which had no problem dealing with it. The second was against an aggressive midrange deck, where it was used to attempt (and, I should add, fail) to keep Jitte at bay.
It's a powerful creature, that's for sure, but it doesn't seem out of place in a powered cube - in fact, quite the contrary.
This card isn't even on the same planet as Thrun in terms of power-level and function, but that's honestly neither here nor there. TNN doesn't get a mark against it on power-level alone, and that's why I dislike it as a cube card. It fails multiple litmus tests for good design as outlined in Parnell's article.
So? The cube is jammed to the brim with cards that were poorly designed "mistakes" that probably shouldn't have seen print as they were. If we banned every card that was overly powerful because it wasn't designed right, we wouldn't have much left.
At its core don't believe this is a powered VS unpowered debate.
I don't either. It's not about powered vs unpowered. It's about people banning cards that they think are "unfun" or not. We don't, because we don't find powerful cards to be "unfun" ...otherwise we wouldn't have much to cube with, considering the cube is a collection of insanely broken cards. And in the grand scheme of things, and in comparison to a lot of the other busted stuff in the cube (even stuff that unpowered cubes run) this guy is tame.
I really hope more people get a chance to play with the card vs. just theorizing. In the one draft we played it, it beat face pretty well but certainly wasn't too ridiculous. Yes I saw it pick up a sword and go crazy. I cut invisible stalker because it was an boring two-card combo with equipment. This card stands on it's own and does many different things.
We had one draft so far.
The control deck just mystical tutored for a terminus and laughed. The black deck had answers aplenty. The burn deck was forced to race but an interesting thing happened in one game. The U/G tempo deck dropped True-Name on turn 3 and the red deck dropped Sulfuric Vortex on their 3. Neither deck had a card that could remove the other. Yes true name could beat down but the red deck was backed with burn and had more creatures so true-name had to hold back for block at one point. It was only a key counterspell on the Nearheath Pilgrim that saved the match.
I have more ways to deal with this thing in my cube than nasty enchantments so maybe I am biased.
While it's not going in my cube for the same reasons I'm not playing mind twist, I do have one thing to ask
WHY ISN'T THIS CARD WHITE. WHY DOES BLUE GET ALL THE THINGS.
I probably wouldn't be as pissed were this card any other color, but I think white makes the most sense.
Dandy_Lions;11137258']While it's not going in my cube for the same reasons I'm not playing mind twist, I do have one thing to ask
WHY ISN'T THIS CARD WHITE. WHY DOES BLUE GET ALL THE THINGS.
I probably wouldn't be as pissed were this card any other color, but I think white makes the most sense.
According to MaRo, protection from things other than colors is an area they're trying to open blue up to.
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https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Plus these ways to get rid of it before it hits the battlefield:
<counterspells>
I guess that list isn't terribly short, but it's not exactly plentiful. I think my biggest issue is that the card just seems boring to play with and aggravating to play against. I don't draft blue decks to play cards like this, anyway.
Other ways to deal with him that appear in lists include:
Akroma's Vengeance
Awkward Command
Rout
Hallowed Burial
Black Sun's Zenith
Diabolic Edict
Chainer's Edict
Barter in Blood
Innocent Blood
Fleshbag Marauder
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Far//Away
Oblivion Stone
Mindslaver, in a fashion
There are more that can certainly deal with him but just aren't very played anymore (like Flowstone Slide or Wing Shards). I'm sure there are more, but I can't remember any since I'm in school...shh!
Your blue decks don't have boring and annoying cards to play with/vs. like counterspells?
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Well... I enjoy playing with/against counterspells in Cube because the Cube isn't so chock full of them that the control player always has one. My 300 Cube has 11 if you count Venser, Shaper Savant and Glen Elendra Archmage. A lot of mental games revolve around baiting out counters, when to play a counter and when to hold it, etc. Plus, they're one-and-done barring a Snapcaster or Regrowth.
TNN is more along the lines of Winter Orb and Mind Twist as far as non-fun goes... but then again I Cube with those cards. Maybe it's just "new card bias," bias against "unexciting" creatures, or bias against what I view as poor design (flavor is spot-on, though). I just don't really like the card.
That is 15 out of 300, plus counterspells. Not exactly a short list.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Also Ratchet Bomb is played in a lot of lists, and Powder Keg in a few.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Pros
Cons
My ideal cube cards are powerful build-arounds (e.g., Winter Orb) or medium power, flexible cards (e.g., removal, Solemn Simulacrum.) I don't like that TNN is both powerful and flexible. It also feels more white to me. So, mostly for aesthetic reasons, I'm leaning towards not including it.
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Knowing it is a tough card made it all the more satisfying to beat. Although I lost 2:1 in the match, it wasn't because of TNN (Detention Sphere was my undoing in both games I lost).
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
There was no way this thing was ever remotely close to getting added to my list. Much like Jace 3.0, I have a feeling we'll start to see people slowly cutting this as people become exposed to it.
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I think about broken cards in four categories:
1) Some assembly required, e.g., Balance, Armageddon, Natural Order, Tinker - These cards are busted but require other pieces to be drafted, a specific archetype, or a certain game state. In other words, I think they take some skill to set up.
2) Villains, e.g., Umezawa's Jitte, Jace the Mindsculptor, Reoccuring Nightmare - These are cards that are universally good, great P1P1 picks, and almost always played in that color. They make the player playing them feel powerful and create a little mini-game for the opponent to try to beat them.
3) One Card Combos, e.g., Mind Twist, Library of Alexandria - These are a lot like the Villains, but they lack interactivity, or just don't seem fun to play against. You play them, you almost always win, and the opponent doesn't have the feeling that they can beat them.
4) Rule Breakers, e.g., Black Lotus, Mana Drain - these cards feel like they break some rule of the game or just don't seem like they work right.
Obviously, 2-4 are somewhat subjective, and I am wondering whether TNN fits in category 2 or category 3. My hunch is that it's a category 3, but I don't know. I will probably hold off and see it in action first.
I cut Jace for not being good enough, otherwise it'd still be in there. If you run Mind Twist, Sol Ring, Balance, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Jace 2, Jitte, so on and so on, True-Name Nemesis is the least of your worries.
This card isn't that far off from Thrun, actually. It's unblockable, but it can be countered and destroyed with mass destruction effects. It doesn't need to be banned for powerlevel at all, unless you also ban a metric ton of other cube cards for being "too good".
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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I agree, if you're coming from this philosophy, you should ban TNN. The thing is ridiculous. Not everyone agrees with the above, however.
The important thing here is just play the cards you want to play. If you don't like TNN for whatever reason, then don't play it. But I'm of the opinion that I like cards like this in my cube. I like playing with them and I like the feeling I get when I beat them. I also think that if you draw a line in the sand and put this card on the other side of that line, then there are a lot of comparable cards that should be over there as well.
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This card isn't even on the same planet as Thrun in terms of power-level and function, but that's honestly neither here nor there. TNN doesn't get a mark against it on power-level alone, and that's why I dislike it as a cube card. It fails multiple litmus tests for good design as outlined in Parnell's article.
At its core don't believe this is a powered VS unpowered debate.
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I can certainly see JP and Kranny's point; however, I'm trying to be less anecdotal in my opinions and more in the 'testing' camp.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
I don't really think it's a powered vs unpowered debate, either. I do, however, feel like the people (like yourself and Parnell) who generally fall on the unpowered side of that debate will also be the people who choose not to play True-Name Nemesis due to it being hard to interact with and very powerful if unanswered. That's why I think this conversation (debate?) could easily fall into that side of the table vs this side of the table and basically be a repeat of any discussion we've ever had around here about Moat.
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Aww, you don't want to have that debate again? Not even a little bit?
Personal opinion -- I won't be playing this card for two reasons: (a) it doesn't look fun. (b) blue probably doesn't need more support in my cube.
I am with Antknee on this. I want to see it in action first. Im not part of any hive mind, if the card ends up being unfun I will cut it. But I wont not include just because Parnell or anyone else doesnt like it.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
It's a powerful creature, that's for sure, but it doesn't seem out of place in a powered cube - in fact, quite the contrary.
If a card is good enough, I'll cube with it.
So? The cube is jammed to the brim with cards that were poorly designed "mistakes" that probably shouldn't have seen print as they were. If we banned every card that was overly powerful because it wasn't designed right, we wouldn't have much left.
I don't either. It's not about powered vs unpowered. It's about people banning cards that they think are "unfun" or not. We don't, because we don't find powerful cards to be "unfun" ...otherwise we wouldn't have much to cube with, considering the cube is a collection of insanely broken cards. And in the grand scheme of things, and in comparison to a lot of the other busted stuff in the cube (even stuff that unpowered cubes run) this guy is tame.
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We had one draft so far.
The control deck just mystical tutored for a terminus and laughed. The black deck had answers aplenty. The burn deck was forced to race but an interesting thing happened in one game. The U/G tempo deck dropped True-Name on turn 3 and the red deck dropped Sulfuric Vortex on their 3. Neither deck had a card that could remove the other. Yes true name could beat down but the red deck was backed with burn and had more creatures so true-name had to hold back for block at one point. It was only a key counterspell on the Nearheath Pilgrim that saved the match.
I have more ways to deal with this thing in my cube than nasty enchantments so maybe I am biased.
WHY ISN'T THIS CARD WHITE. WHY DOES BLUE GET ALL THE THINGS.
I probably wouldn't be as pissed were this card any other color, but I think white makes the most sense.
According to MaRo, protection from things other than colors is an area they're trying to open blue up to.
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