Is the WW for Avenger really an obstruction? You can't play it turns 2 or 3 anyway except off a Vial, and we usually have WW by turn 4. I think it functions basically like a 3CMC flyer.
Thanks for the links, folks. I am watching the vids and I almost can't believe it but the commentators still consistently think D+T is at a disadvantage.
I don't think that TNN is unbeatable, it's just important to have a game plan, a mindset, when playing against the decks that use him.
The old version of the deck had more two drops and it was the same hard decision you're talking about now with Aether Vial. It requires you to know what you're doing before making choices. Which avenue you want to take. Sometimes it can bite you, but that is what the deck is. I am very likely to play Avengers this weekend because of how resilient they are to hate and because the vigilance is very useful, representing a very strong offensive and deffensive capability.
I'm very hesitant about dropping Mangara, especially given the Show and Tell presence that will likely be at DC. However, I've been messing around with the TE build and it seems pretty boss overall. I think its very well suited to race, it can stand up to hate, and I feel like it will have a better show against the larger portion of the meta.
I think the twitch app might just be the worst app ever. I absolutely can not get to these videos. Does anyone know how to use this hostile piece of crap?
Any consideration for Runed Halo to help against TNN?
I just watched all the DnT video footage from the BOM tournament and I really am not sure how necessary it is. Definitely something to consider if it really bcomes an issue. I just think sword of fire and ice goes further in racing it, rather than trying to deal with it with an enchantment we usually can't sneak into play past a force or running it into a daze because we conditioned ourselves to be afraid of it. Batterskull isn't a bad option for racing until they get a second one down. If decks begin to over commit to the TNN plan then I think sweepers are gonna be where we need to be over halo.
I'm considering going back to Dryad Militant for a little extra GY hate. TNN seems to have breathed new life into UR Tempo and UW Stoneblade strategies. These decks rely on Snapcaster and point removal spells to control the board. Combined with Jund running PFire, it seems that the little guy has a chance to shine.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
@Nemesis: I agree with your conclusions, mykatdied. At least I think I do. What concerns me is the near zero availability of TNN. How many players were unable to get TNN who wanted to by game time? The set had only been out a few days at the time. Yuck.
I think Sword of Fire//Ice needs to promoted to maindeck inclusion. Though I have not tested it at all.
And with a sword like that in maindeck, 1x mirran crusader seems like a blasphemy to me. A beast that could potentially deal 12 points of damage a turn... it's insane!
I agree, I think a 2/2 Crusader/Avenger split instead of a 1/3 split is probably better. The flyers are crucial, so I don't think I would want to tilt further than that (leaving all else in the Enevoldsen/Shenhar maindeck fixed).
I agree, I think a 2/2 Crusader/Avenger split instead of a 1/3 split is probably better. The flyers are crucial, so I don't think I would want to tilt further than that (leaving all else in the Enevoldsen/Shenhar maindeck fixed).
2nd that. I'd also expect an uptick of BUG Delver in the next little while too (feat. TNN) and Crusader definitely shines there (especially once he gets pro U).
In terms of developing a plan vs TNN and/or the meta, I'd expect to see him in UW Stoneblade (just won SCG Dallas), BUG Delver, UR Delver, and possibly split w/ Geist in UWR - that is, IF people manage to secure him. Being a GP, I can see people going to more lengths than usual to try and get the [gamebreaking] cards they need.
I'm still unsure as to our best lines of play vs Delver; can anyone shed some light on the matchup?
@Nemesis: I agree with your conclusions, mykatdied. At least I think I do. What concerns me is the near zero availability of TNN. How many players were unable to get TNN who wanted to by game time? The set had only been out a few days at the time. Yuck.
I think Sword of Fire//Ice needs to promoted to maindeck inclusion. Though I have not tested it at all.
I use sword of fire and ice for a month now and It is completely worth it. My build I dropped the 2 mindcensor for a 3 mangara and 1 sword. It has been awesome so far. My next change will probably involve 1 spellskite for the 3rd mangara. I am a fan of the lock but with patriot delver becoming more popular I feel as though there needs to be that additional monovox, I mean spellskite to help us get some momentum and protect key creatures for that match up.SSorry about that. He loves spellskite so much I forget when skite ends and he begins. Lol
general advices with the sideboard against the mirror? I've been blowed out by a SoLaS and a ratchet bomb. Soo disappointed about that
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Currently playing: WW - legacy death and taxes - WW
I'M A MEMBER OF THE Anti-Blue Alliance (Just Say "Yes" to Spells!)
The SIX cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning of Surival Of The Fittest.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
I almost hate to repeat it, because I said it sort of as a joke at SCG Open Minneapolis, but 4x Sunlance in the side continues to be a smart option against practically every deck I face. Maybe it's my meta, but I don't think so. I think we just don't want to admit to ourselves that we are facing non-white weenie decks.
I am getting tromped by Deathrite Shaman, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, not to mention the old standbys, Dark Confidant, Shardless Agent, Delver of Secrets, Bloodbraid Elf.
If you want to combat TNN, why fight TNN? Many games I have to combat an unanswered Delver for x turns, which ain't no party. TNN's Lords, Silvergill Adepts, and Cursecatchers all take a Sunlance to the nutsack.
And if we're talking about what I think will be the better UR agro control build, then you have to kill Delver and answer burn spells, and let TNN alone.
I run 1x Paladin en-Vec in the side because it's just good.
With all that said, I'm not sure I'm proposing 4x Sunlance, but I believe the answer might be more "inside the box" than we think it is.
I almost hate to repeat it, because I said it sort of as a joke at SCG Open Minneapolis, but 4x Sunlance in the side continues to be a smart option against practically every deck I face. Maybe it's my meta, but I don't think so. I think we just don't want to admit to ourselves that we are facing non-white weenie decks.
I am getting tromped by Deathrite Shaman, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, not to mention the old standbys, Dark Confidant, Shardless Agent, Delver of Secrets, Bloodbraid Elf.
If you want to combat TNN, why fight TNN? Many games I have to combat an unanswered Delver for x turns, which ain't no party. TNN's Lords, Silvergill Adepts, and Cursecatchers all take a Sunlance to the nutsack.
And if we're talking about what I think will be the better UR agro control build, then you have to kill Delver and answer burn spells, and let TNN alone.
I run 1x Paladin en-Vec in the side because it's just good.
With all that said, I'm not sure I'm proposing 4x Sunlance, but I believe the answer might be more "inside the box" than we think it is.
J
More than 1 'Lance doesn't seem like a bad idea in the "aggro" version of the deck. Keeping the board clear early is important if you intent to win through combat damage. A year ago, I was rolling with 2-3 Gut Shot in the sideboard at all times.
The versions of the deck that still run 3 Mangaras have a bit more wiggle room to ignore big threats, since you have the inevitability of the Mango-Lock.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I am getting tromped by Deathrite Shaman, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, not to mention the old standbys, Dark Confidant, Shardless Agent, Delver of Secrets, Bloodbraid Elf.
If you want to combat TNN, why fight TNN? Many games I have to combat an unanswered Delver for x turns...
And if we're talking about what I think will be the better UR agro control build, then you have to kill Delver and answer burn spells, and let TNN alone.
I run 1x Paladin en-Vec in the side because it's just good.
With all that said, I'm not sure I'm proposing 4x Sunlance, but I believe the answer might be more "inside the box" than we think it is.
J
This is exactly what I'm finding. As a control deck, its strange that we sit around for turn after turn letting Delver clock our faces in. More 1cmc removal never hurt control... although I'm not sure about Sunlance, specifically. What are our options?
Sunlance:
+1cmc;
-sorcery speed
-doesn't hit opposing SFMs
-(almost) useless vs mirror
Path to Exile:
+1cmc
+Instant;
+ useful in mirror
-plays against our mana denial plan (although it could be argued here that most decks against which we need fast answers - tempo - barely play any basics, and will probably search them out asap anyway), which was always a problem
Unexpectedly Absent
+answers any permanent (barring hexproof / protection)
+instant
-WW cost can be prohibitive & slow
-not a permanent solution (barring fetchland shenanigans)
... although it does seem cool here to UA their SFM with the trigger on the stack...
Celestial Flare
+ CAN hit TNN/Geist along with any other att/blocking creature
-WW
-only hits attacking/blocking creatures (balanced against ability to hit TNN/Geist)
Dismember
+Instant
+ removes most creatures
- significant life cost for a control deck
Well, Oust has been in the OP off and on for a couple years.
I'd say if you're inclined to make more room in the sb for removal, it has to catch non-attacking creatures. Noble Hierarch was a must-kill for a year or two (dies to Sunlance) and NH rarely attacks. Same with Deathrite Shaman and Grim Lavamancer. They are must-answer threats (all "die" to Phyrexian Revoker) or at least premium targets. The other spells that answer hard-to-kill attackers (TNN (this is a cable channel, right?), Geist, Griselbrand, and even Emrakul, and Reanimator creatures) have a lot of appeal, but in my opinion, if you answer the early Elves and Goblins and such, you strengthen DnT to the most great degree.
One nice thing about Sunlance (or its far superior sister, Swords) is that you have a chance to continue developing because of the low cost. Path to Exile might seem to provide that, but it "costs you a land drop" against some decks, and it is almost kind of painful to aim it at a Deathrite Shaman or a Noble Hierarch because you're not pinning them back on their mana.
I've been trying Ratchet Bomb out lately. You'd think it's a bad card because it's so janky, but somehow, in this deck, it works.
Against any Delver deck, they are usually only favored vs DnT if they get two Delvers on board, flipped. Ratchet Bomb might as well read, "2, Destroy every Delver in play." Ends up being a great deal, even if you only take out one.
It's slow in doing so, but it also kills TNN. Granted, you'd want to get it out ahead of that card being cast and watch what CMC3 cards you are adding to the board, but if you end up in a state where racing won't get you there first, you have a way out.
Furthermore, it is a solid mull-to card against Belcher. 7 out of their 11 win-con cards lead to goblin tokens. Coupled with a couple Mindbreak Traps, I'll take those odds.
I'm currently testing it as a response to an opponent's Jitte. I like the idea of Manriki Gusari, but it plays out much better in decks that have access to bigger bodies. With the opposing Jitte already online, I'd wish "good luck" to anyone trying to equip it to the vast majority of our creatures. I imagine you could topdeck Ratchet Bomb and use any existing creatures you get to stall out the game until it's ready to go off on Jitte. Even setting it in anticipation isn't bad either. Any CMC2 body we have that can negate Jitte will already be in play and doing its thing or it won't be there, so our side of the board should usually face minimal losses. I'd be interested in others' experiences testing for this specific usage. As it happens out, the main deck shells that use TNN are decks with Delver and Jitte , so I can see R Bomb retaining relevance through any stage of the game.
We're also forgetting Gut Shot. It is not bad, I think, as it is a turn 0 play and a lot of creatures we care about (lavamancer, basically all of elves, turn 1 delver) have 1 toughness.
I think the high-removal sideboard also sounds awesome, and here is what I have been thinking lately:
For reference, my maindeck is the recent Enevoldsen/Shenhar list +1 Crusader -1 Avenger. My sideboard was previously:
My testing has made me pretty unhappy with Manriki-Gusari and Linvala. Against the decks whose activated abilities we care about, Linvala is either too slow (e.g., Elves), or too easily dealt with (e.g., Karakas in the mirror is particularly feel-bad), or in matchups where we have plenty of other angles of attack. I have also found that I have enough ways to deal with equipment outside of Manriki-Gusari between Revoker, Oblivion Ring, Unexpectedly Absent, and timely Flickerwisps/Mindcensors. Manriki-Gusari also leads to awkward Stoneforge Mystic lines where you would like to tutor for a powerful equipment with your first Mystic, opening the door for your opponent to tutor up the thing you wanted to kill with Manriki in the first place. On the other hand, tutoring up Manriki reactively is often really bad. If your opponent gets Jitte online before you have it, getting it to stick on a creature before it dies is often a real challenge. Killing Batterskull is a crapshoot with its bounce ability. It is really only good against opposing swords.
Replacing these with more removal seems reasonable. As mentioned before, all options have downsides, so it seems prudent to split our removal around all options to cover all our bases. Perhaps a better sideboard is:
I like that Dismember can kill a Goyf or a Batterskull Germ at instant speed, so that's why I chose it. In general, instant speed removal is a huge advantage, which is why I'm disinclined to add more Sunlances or Ousts.
Edit: While I was posting, Swords to Timeshares's post went up. Ratchet Bomb is also a consideration.
I'll also note that Unexpectedly Absent has been performing quite well in my testing. As I said, being an Instant is great, and it occupies sort of a hybrid space between Sunlance and Oblivion Ring. Plus, responding to a shuffle effect with it is awesome!
Round 1: Sneak and Show (L, 0-2)
-I know I'm terrible at magic, but considering I hadn't ever played the matchup, I still felt really, really stupid. Game one he drops Griselbrand on turn 2 and draws 14 to overload my karakas with Sneak Attack.
-Game 2, I have a Karakas and vial in a revoker stupidly naming Lotus Petal. I know, I'm bad at magic. If I name Sneak Attack, I don't think he can win. Alas, I start my day 0-1.
Round 2: Dredge (W, 2-0)
-Game 1 I drop Thalia on the play to keep him from going off until I land a revoker naming LED and he proceeds to scoop as I soon have 8 power on board.
-Game 2 I E tutor EoT to get Rest in Peace which I drop turn 2. He scoops.
Round 3: Oops! All Spells (L, 0-2)
Neither game do I have a shot, as the entire match lasts 5 turns. Game 1 he's on the play, and combos turn 2. Game 2 I'm on the play and he goes off turn 1. On a side note however, if I get a second turn either game, I proceed to win. He can't beat the Thalia I would've dropped game one, nor the Rest in Peace I would've landed in Game 2. Oh well, I can't feel too bad about losing to Magical Variance.
Round 4: Pox (W, 2-0)
-Game 1 I keep dropping threats until eventually I can keep revoker on lili, and keep ripping lands to hard cast a Batterskull and win.
-Game 2 he has to Toxic Deluge for 4 and then Deluge again for 3 after he allowed me to discard a Wilt-Leaf off of Smallpox. I follow it up with more and more vial pressure to lethal him with a SoLaS.
Round 5: Burn (W, 2-0)
-Game 1 he is forced to use a fireblast on my crusader, lest he get double struck by a SoLaS crusader. The second and third SFMs grab equipment and I equip a batterskull with a jitte. He scoops it up.
-Game 2: Turns out Burn has a lot of trouble with a vial into Thalia, Canonist, and Revoker on Hellspark Elemental.
Round 6: Oops! All Spells (W, 2-0)
-Game 1: He fizzles out and can't combo in time through a Thalia, then dies a few turns later to a SFM and Batterskull.
-Game 2: He attempts to go off Turn 2, but has 2 Narcomoebas in hand and decks himself... So that's a thing...
Round 7: Shardless BUG (W, 2-0)
-Game 1: He is able to put a couple Goyfs in play as well as a deathrite, but they are held off by a Mom and Thalia, then simply outraced by an Avenger, a Mindcensor, and Mirran Crusader.
-Game 2: He can't beat mana denial coupled with batterskull and SFM, unsurprisingly.
Round 8: Shardless BUG (W, 2-1)
-Game 1: I blow up 5 lands keeping him on just Green, until I blow up his last colored land he played so his goyf and wasteland are facing down my Crusader, double Revoker (on DRS and Lili), and Mom. He scoops to not being able to cast any spells.
-Game 2: I mull to six, and on the play he goes Thoughtseize Crusader, Thoughtseize Stoneforge, Abrupt Decay Vial, Abrupt Decay Thalia, Abrupt Decay Revoker... fought through that and got him to around 8, drop a Wilt-Leaf off of Lili, and almost get there in the air. However, a Visions into Shardless Agent cascade into Visions eventually just drowns me in cards.
-Game 3: We trade resource for resource until we're both at 10. He has 2 Goyfs and 2 DRS, staring down Thalia, Revoker on DRS, Mom, RIP, and a vial on 3. He drops a golgari charm to wipe the board and in response I vial Flickerwisp in to save my Revoker. Everything dies except the two DRS and the revoker that comes back, until he kills the RIP and Revoker I have in play on the next turn. two turns later I have a vial on 2 and a vial on 4 with a wilt-leaf in hand. I rip Avenger off the top and flash both in to block both DRS then kill him on the swing back.
Round 9: Nic Fit/GB Rock (W, 2-0)
Game 1: Mirran Crusader along with a couple fliers tear through him equipped with a SoLaS. Rather uneventful game.
Game 2: Once again, SoLaS off of a SFM lets me recur my Crusaders after he Therapy's them away. He played Grave Titan Twice, but it ultimately didn't matter as I finish him off by putting Revoker on Pernicious Deed, and suiting Crusader up with Batterskull.
Overall, I was very happy with how the deck did, and was thoroughly impressed with the Ghost Quarters in the main over the Ports. Though I never played against it in the tournament, Ghost Quarter is exceptionally good at killing problem lands, namely Grove of the Burnwillows. Furthermore, I was very happy with having 2 different swords between the main and the side. Going forward I will definitely be switching which sword is where (moving SoFI to the main and SoLaS to the side), simply due to TNN being a thing.
One other thing I will be testing in the next few weeks will be 2 Humility over the oblivion rings in the SB. Humility is completely unbeatable against Sneak and Show, and also crushes TNN. Never mind all the puns you can make in relation to humble pie and feeding your opponents their "Just desserts." All that aside though, Humility seems fantastic in a few matchups, and I look forward to trying it.
Seems like overall you won a few of the difficult match ups and in the end you learned how to beat sneak and show and what makes our deck favored in that match up. So for the future things will be different for you. My first SCG was shortly after Sneak and Show became a thing. I was playing stax at the time and it was hilarious to see your opponents reaction to flipping their emrakul/grislebrand to your humility. I went 3-6 because I was very new to stax but I beat 2 sneak and show decks and would've beaten a 3rd if I wasn't waiting for a show and tell to drop my humility that I could've cast. Point is that humility is very strong in that match up. Problem is that it makes your creatures much less effective. It is great for when you can land a batterskull cause you know... 0/0 germ becomes 1/1 so the 5/5 is usually pretty good at that point. Humility can be very difficult for us to actually cast and unlike stax we don't have the mishra's factories to animate as 2/2 and recur from crucibles as continuous form of pressure. Point is that as Death and taxes pilots we have a decent main board match up and after sideboard it just gets that much better. I am not sure using humility to make it that much harder for both sides to win is really that great of an idea. After board they get pyroclasm, and their emrakuls shuffle all their threats back in. Ours will remain in our yard for the remainder of that match. Using humility means nothing of ours can survive through a pyroclasm. I just don't really think that is where you will want to be.
I'd really appreciate input. Maybe I've just been paired up against some decks too much (MUD, Storm notably) but I've had some concerns. I expect to play this in DC.
Aside from input on the above list, I really need help in my decision process on the draw when my opponent drops a fetch land or an island and plays a ponder or delver and passes.
In scenarios such as opening hand having
1. 1 vial, more expensive stuff.
2. 1 mother, more expensive stuff
3. 1 vial, 1 mother, more expensive stuff
I feel like in scenarios 1 or 2 I have to pass so I don't get dazed out, but I hate that b/c it's like I'm starting 2 turns behind. In scenario 3 I feel I bait with mother then next turn cast vial, but that still feels bleh.
Any insite beyond what I read on the first couple and last couple pages would be appreciated.
Also, please excuse my deck tag, I haven't deck tagged since 2007 and forgot how to format.
Edit, also I've been considering turning the eiganjo castle into another plains or a flagstones. Also curious about the ghost quarters since some decks don't run basics or it can kill problematic lands.
Aside from input on the above list, I really need help in my decision process on the draw when my opponent drops a fetch land or an island and plays a ponder or delver and passes.
In scenarios such as opening hand having
1. 1 vial, more expensive stuff.
2. 1 mother, more expensive stuff
3. 1 vial, 1 mother, more expensive stuff
I feel like in scenarios 1 or 2 I have to pass so I don't get dazed out, but I hate that b/c it's like I'm starting 2 turns behind. In scenario 3 I feel I bait with mother then next turn cast vial, but that still feels bleh.
Any insite beyond what I read on the first couple and last couple pages would be appreciated.
Also, please excuse my deck tag, I haven't deck tagged since 2007 and forgot how to format.
Edit, also I've been considering turning the eiganjo castle into another plains or a flagstones. Also curious about the ghost quarters since some decks don't run basics or it can kill problematic lands.
Getting vial online is probably top priority, then mom. so if you have any type of first turn play that is usually the way I prioritize them. turn 1 vial, turn 2 thalia if I have her, then vial in mom end of opponent's turn. If they have nothing to interact at that point then you are usually going to be ok.
Getting vial online is probably top priority, then mom. so if you have any type of first turn play that is usually the way I prioritize them. turn 1 vial, turn 2 thalia if I have her, then vial in mom end of opponent's turn. If they have nothing to interact at that point then you are usually going to be ok.
1. So would you just play the vial into a potential daze? That doesn't seem right to me, but I always don't want them to get to timewalk me for free.
2. Any thoughts about the deck list?
1. So would you just play the vial into a potential daze? That doesn't seem right to me, but I always don't want them to get to timewalk me for free.
2. Any thoughts about the deck list?
If you play nothing at all, that is how they timewalk you for free. If you get Dazed, they at least had to bounce a land to do it, which is less than a timewalk.
If I'm afraid of Daze and I have Mom and Vial in hand, I play the Vial first. A turn 2 Mom is better than a turn 2 Vial, I think, but a turn 1 Vial is better than a turn 1 Mom. My reasoning is that you want both cards to be performing at full capacity on turn 3. Getting Mom Dazed on turn 1 and then resolving a Vial on turn 2 gives you a much less significant board state than the other way round, your opponent will be much more able to race you in that position.
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I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
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The old version of the deck had more two drops and it was the same hard decision you're talking about now with Aether Vial. It requires you to know what you're doing before making choices. Which avenue you want to take. Sometimes it can bite you, but that is what the deck is. I am very likely to play Avengers this weekend because of how resilient they are to hate and because the vigilance is very useful, representing a very strong offensive and deffensive capability.
I'm very hesitant about dropping Mangara, especially given the Show and Tell presence that will likely be at DC. However, I've been messing around with the TE build and it seems pretty boss overall. I think its very well suited to race, it can stand up to hate, and I feel like it will have a better show against the larger portion of the meta.
Horde of Notions | Azami, Lady of Scrolls | Mirri the Cursed | Kaalia of the Vast | Ghave, Guru of Spores | Nin, the Pain Artist | Damia, Sage of Stone | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician | Vela the Night-Clad | Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain | Nahiri, the Lithomancer | Princess Twilight Sparkle
I just watched all the DnT video footage from the BOM tournament and I really am not sure how necessary it is. Definitely something to consider if it really bcomes an issue. I just think sword of fire and ice goes further in racing it, rather than trying to deal with it with an enchantment we usually can't sneak into play past a force or running it into a daze because we conditioned ourselves to be afraid of it. Batterskull isn't a bad option for racing until they get a second one down. If decks begin to over commit to the TNN plan then I think sweepers are gonna be where we need to be over halo.
I think Sword of Fire//Ice needs to promoted to maindeck inclusion. Though I have not tested it at all.
I agree, I think a 2/2 Crusader/Avenger split instead of a 1/3 split is probably better. The flyers are crucial, so I don't think I would want to tilt further than that (leaving all else in the Enevoldsen/Shenhar maindeck fixed).
2nd that. I'd also expect an uptick of BUG Delver in the next little while too (feat. TNN) and Crusader definitely shines there (especially once he gets pro U).
In terms of developing a plan vs TNN and/or the meta, I'd expect to see him in UW Stoneblade (just won SCG Dallas), BUG Delver, UR Delver, and possibly split w/ Geist in UWR - that is, IF people manage to secure him. Being a GP, I can see people going to more lengths than usual to try and get the [gamebreaking] cards they need.
I'm still unsure as to our best lines of play vs Delver; can anyone shed some light on the matchup?
I use sword of fire and ice for a month now and It is completely worth it. My build I dropped the 2 mindcensor for a 3 mangara and 1 sword. It has been awesome so far. My next change will probably involve 1 spellskite for the 3rd mangara. I am a fan of the lock but with patriot delver becoming more popular I feel as though there needs to be that additional monovox, I mean spellskite to help us get some momentum and protect key creatures for that match up.SSorry about that. He loves spellskite so much I forget when skite ends and he begins. Lol
WW - legacy death and taxes - WW
1. Discuss the unbanning of Surival Of The Fittest.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
I am getting tromped by Deathrite Shaman, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, not to mention the old standbys, Dark Confidant, Shardless Agent, Delver of Secrets, Bloodbraid Elf.
If you want to combat TNN, why fight TNN? Many games I have to combat an unanswered Delver for x turns, which ain't no party. TNN's Lords, Silvergill Adepts, and Cursecatchers all take a Sunlance to the nutsack.
And if we're talking about what I think will be the better UR agro control build, then you have to kill Delver and answer burn spells, and let TNN alone.
I run 1x Paladin en-Vec in the side because it's just good.
With all that said, I'm not sure I'm proposing 4x Sunlance, but I believe the answer might be more "inside the box" than we think it is.
J
More than 1 'Lance doesn't seem like a bad idea in the "aggro" version of the deck. Keeping the board clear early is important if you intent to win through combat damage. A year ago, I was rolling with 2-3 Gut Shot in the sideboard at all times.
The versions of the deck that still run 3 Mangaras have a bit more wiggle room to ignore big threats, since you have the inevitability of the Mango-Lock.
This is exactly what I'm finding. As a control deck, its strange that we sit around for turn after turn letting Delver clock our faces in. More 1cmc removal never hurt control... although I'm not sure about Sunlance, specifically. What are our options?
Sunlance:
+1cmc;
-sorcery speed
-doesn't hit opposing SFMs
-(almost) useless vs mirror
Path to Exile:
+1cmc
+Instant;
+ useful in mirror
-plays against our mana denial plan (although it could be argued here that most decks against which we need fast answers - tempo - barely play any basics, and will probably search them out asap anyway), which was always a problem
Unexpectedly Absent
+answers any permanent (barring hexproof / protection)
+instant
-WW cost can be prohibitive & slow
-not a permanent solution (barring fetchland shenanigans)
... although it does seem cool here to UA their SFM with the trigger on the stack...
Celestial Flare
+ CAN hit TNN/Geist along with any other att/blocking creature
-WW
-only hits attacking/blocking creatures (balanced against ability to hit TNN/Geist)
Dismember
+Instant
+ removes most creatures
- significant life cost for a control deck
... is there anything else playable?
Well, Oust has been in the OP off and on for a couple years.
I'd say if you're inclined to make more room in the sb for removal, it has to catch non-attacking creatures. Noble Hierarch was a must-kill for a year or two (dies to Sunlance) and NH rarely attacks. Same with Deathrite Shaman and Grim Lavamancer. They are must-answer threats (all "die" to Phyrexian Revoker) or at least premium targets. The other spells that answer hard-to-kill attackers (TNN (this is a cable channel, right?), Geist, Griselbrand, and even Emrakul, and Reanimator creatures) have a lot of appeal, but in my opinion, if you answer the early Elves and Goblins and such, you strengthen DnT to the most great degree.
One nice thing about Sunlance (or its far superior sister, Swords) is that you have a chance to continue developing because of the low cost. Path to Exile might seem to provide that, but it "costs you a land drop" against some decks, and it is almost kind of painful to aim it at a Deathrite Shaman or a Noble Hierarch because you're not pinning them back on their mana.
J
Against any Delver deck, they are usually only favored vs DnT if they get two Delvers on board, flipped. Ratchet Bomb might as well read, "2, Destroy every Delver in play." Ends up being a great deal, even if you only take out one.
It's slow in doing so, but it also kills TNN. Granted, you'd want to get it out ahead of that card being cast and watch what CMC3 cards you are adding to the board, but if you end up in a state where racing won't get you there first, you have a way out.
Furthermore, it is a solid mull-to card against Belcher. 7 out of their 11 win-con cards lead to goblin tokens. Coupled with a couple Mindbreak Traps, I'll take those odds.
I'm currently testing it as a response to an opponent's Jitte. I like the idea of Manriki Gusari, but it plays out much better in decks that have access to bigger bodies. With the opposing Jitte already online, I'd wish "good luck" to anyone trying to equip it to the vast majority of our creatures. I imagine you could topdeck Ratchet Bomb and use any existing creatures you get to stall out the game until it's ready to go off on Jitte. Even setting it in anticipation isn't bad either. Any CMC2 body we have that can negate Jitte will already be in play and doing its thing or it won't be there, so our side of the board should usually face minimal losses. I'd be interested in others' experiences testing for this specific usage. As it happens out, the main deck shells that use TNN are decks with Delver and Jitte , so I can see R Bomb retaining relevance through any stage of the game.
I think the high-removal sideboard also sounds awesome, and here is what I have been thinking lately:
For reference, my maindeck is the recent Enevoldsen/Shenhar list +1 Crusader -1 Avenger. My sideboard was previously:
2 Cataclysm
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cursed Totem
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Sunlance
1 Unexpectedly Absent
My testing has made me pretty unhappy with Manriki-Gusari and Linvala. Against the decks whose activated abilities we care about, Linvala is either too slow (e.g., Elves), or too easily dealt with (e.g., Karakas in the mirror is particularly feel-bad), or in matchups where we have plenty of other angles of attack. I have also found that I have enough ways to deal with equipment outside of Manriki-Gusari between Revoker, Oblivion Ring, Unexpectedly Absent, and timely Flickerwisps/Mindcensors. Manriki-Gusari also leads to awkward Stoneforge Mystic lines where you would like to tutor for a powerful equipment with your first Mystic, opening the door for your opponent to tutor up the thing you wanted to kill with Manriki in the first place. On the other hand, tutoring up Manriki reactively is often really bad. If your opponent gets Jitte online before you have it, getting it to stick on a creature before it dies is often a real challenge. Killing Batterskull is a crapshoot with its bounce ability. It is really only good against opposing swords.
Replacing these with more removal seems reasonable. As mentioned before, all options have downsides, so it seems prudent to split our removal around all options to cover all our bases. Perhaps a better sideboard is:
2 Cataclysm
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cursed Totem
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sunlance
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Gut Shot
1 Dismember
I like that Dismember can kill a Goyf or a Batterskull Germ at instant speed, so that's why I chose it. In general, instant speed removal is a huge advantage, which is why I'm disinclined to add more Sunlances or Ousts.
Edit: While I was posting, Swords to Timeshares's post went up. Ratchet Bomb is also a consideration.
I'll also note that Unexpectedly Absent has been performing quite well in my testing. As I said, being an Instant is great, and it occupies sort of a hybrid space between Sunlance and Oblivion Ring. Plus, responding to a shuffle effect with it is awesome!
Here's the list I put together for the Event:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Lands: 23
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Karakas
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Cursed Totem
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Meekstone
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Round 1: Sneak and Show (L, 0-2)
-I know I'm terrible at magic, but considering I hadn't ever played the matchup, I still felt really, really stupid. Game one he drops Griselbrand on turn 2 and draws 14 to overload my karakas with Sneak Attack.
-Game 2, I have a Karakas and vial in a revoker stupidly naming Lotus Petal. I know, I'm bad at magic. If I name Sneak Attack, I don't think he can win. Alas, I start my day 0-1.
Round 2: Dredge (W, 2-0)
-Game 1 I drop Thalia on the play to keep him from going off until I land a revoker naming LED and he proceeds to scoop as I soon have 8 power on board.
-Game 2 I E tutor EoT to get Rest in Peace which I drop turn 2. He scoops.
Round 3: Oops! All Spells (L, 0-2)
Neither game do I have a shot, as the entire match lasts 5 turns. Game 1 he's on the play, and combos turn 2. Game 2 I'm on the play and he goes off turn 1. On a side note however, if I get a second turn either game, I proceed to win. He can't beat the Thalia I would've dropped game one, nor the Rest in Peace I would've landed in Game 2. Oh well, I can't feel too bad about losing to Magical Variance.
Round 4: Pox (W, 2-0)
-Game 1 I keep dropping threats until eventually I can keep revoker on lili, and keep ripping lands to hard cast a Batterskull and win.
-Game 2 he has to Toxic Deluge for 4 and then Deluge again for 3 after he allowed me to discard a Wilt-Leaf off of Smallpox. I follow it up with more and more vial pressure to lethal him with a SoLaS.
Round 5: Burn (W, 2-0)
-Game 1 he is forced to use a fireblast on my crusader, lest he get double struck by a SoLaS crusader. The second and third SFMs grab equipment and I equip a batterskull with a jitte. He scoops it up.
-Game 2: Turns out Burn has a lot of trouble with a vial into Thalia, Canonist, and Revoker on Hellspark Elemental.
Round 6: Oops! All Spells (W, 2-0)
-Game 1: He fizzles out and can't combo in time through a Thalia, then dies a few turns later to a SFM and Batterskull.
-Game 2: He attempts to go off Turn 2, but has 2 Narcomoebas in hand and decks himself... So that's a thing...
Round 7: Shardless BUG (W, 2-0)
-Game 1: He is able to put a couple Goyfs in play as well as a deathrite, but they are held off by a Mom and Thalia, then simply outraced by an Avenger, a Mindcensor, and Mirran Crusader.
-Game 2: He can't beat mana denial coupled with batterskull and SFM, unsurprisingly.
Round 8: Shardless BUG (W, 2-1)
-Game 1: I blow up 5 lands keeping him on just Green, until I blow up his last colored land he played so his goyf and wasteland are facing down my Crusader, double Revoker (on DRS and Lili), and Mom. He scoops to not being able to cast any spells.
-Game 2: I mull to six, and on the play he goes Thoughtseize Crusader, Thoughtseize Stoneforge, Abrupt Decay Vial, Abrupt Decay Thalia, Abrupt Decay Revoker... fought through that and got him to around 8, drop a Wilt-Leaf off of Lili, and almost get there in the air. However, a Visions into Shardless Agent cascade into Visions eventually just drowns me in cards.
-Game 3: We trade resource for resource until we're both at 10. He has 2 Goyfs and 2 DRS, staring down Thalia, Revoker on DRS, Mom, RIP, and a vial on 3. He drops a golgari charm to wipe the board and in response I vial Flickerwisp in to save my Revoker. Everything dies except the two DRS and the revoker that comes back, until he kills the RIP and Revoker I have in play on the next turn. two turns later I have a vial on 2 and a vial on 4 with a wilt-leaf in hand. I rip Avenger off the top and flash both in to block both DRS then kill him on the swing back.
Round 9: Nic Fit/GB Rock (W, 2-0)
Game 1: Mirran Crusader along with a couple fliers tear through him equipped with a SoLaS. Rather uneventful game.
Game 2: Once again, SoLaS off of a SFM lets me recur my Crusaders after he Therapy's them away. He played Grave Titan Twice, but it ultimately didn't matter as I finish him off by putting Revoker on Pernicious Deed, and suiting Crusader up with Batterskull.
Overall, I was very happy with how the deck did, and was thoroughly impressed with the Ghost Quarters in the main over the Ports. Though I never played against it in the tournament, Ghost Quarter is exceptionally good at killing problem lands, namely Grove of the Burnwillows. Furthermore, I was very happy with having 2 different swords between the main and the side. Going forward I will definitely be switching which sword is where (moving SoFI to the main and SoLaS to the side), simply due to TNN being a thing.
One other thing I will be testing in the next few weeks will be 2 Humility over the oblivion rings in the SB. Humility is completely unbeatable against Sneak and Show, and also crushes TNN. Never mind all the puns you can make in relation to humble pie and feeding your opponents their "Just desserts." All that aside though, Humility seems fantastic in a few matchups, and I look forward to trying it.
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
8 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Cursed Totem
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Meekstone
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
4 Judge's Familar
I'd really appreciate input. Maybe I've just been paired up against some decks too much (MUD, Storm notably) but I've had some concerns. I expect to play this in DC.
Aside from input on the above list, I really need help in my decision process on the draw when my opponent drops a fetch land or an island and plays a ponder or delver and passes.
In scenarios such as opening hand having
1. 1 vial, more expensive stuff.
2. 1 mother, more expensive stuff
3. 1 vial, 1 mother, more expensive stuff
I feel like in scenarios 1 or 2 I have to pass so I don't get dazed out, but I hate that b/c it's like I'm starting 2 turns behind. In scenario 3 I feel I bait with mother then next turn cast vial, but that still feels bleh.
Any insite beyond what I read on the first couple and last couple pages would be appreciated.
Also, please excuse my deck tag, I haven't deck tagged since 2007 and forgot how to format.
Edit, also I've been considering turning the eiganjo castle into another plains or a flagstones. Also curious about the ghost quarters since some decks don't run basics or it can kill problematic lands.
Getting vial online is probably top priority, then mom. so if you have any type of first turn play that is usually the way I prioritize them. turn 1 vial, turn 2 thalia if I have her, then vial in mom end of opponent's turn. If they have nothing to interact at that point then you are usually going to be ok.
1. So would you just play the vial into a potential daze? That doesn't seem right to me, but I always don't want them to get to timewalk me for free.
2. Any thoughts about the deck list?
If you play nothing at all, that is how they timewalk you for free. If you get Dazed, they at least had to bounce a land to do it, which is less than a timewalk.
If I'm afraid of Daze and I have Mom and Vial in hand, I play the Vial first. A turn 2 Mom is better than a turn 2 Vial, I think, but a turn 1 Vial is better than a turn 1 Mom. My reasoning is that you want both cards to be performing at full capacity on turn 3. Getting Mom Dazed on turn 1 and then resolving a Vial on turn 2 gives you a much less significant board state than the other way round, your opponent will be much more able to race you in that position.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]