Situation: You're at a sanctioned event (SCG Open, GP, etc) and you're playing legacy (or vintage). Your opponent plays a card and you think it's fake. What do you do? What if your opponent thought the card was real? What if he knew it was fake and tried to cheat?
On the flipside: You just bought a power 9 the week before a tournament and halfway through, someone calls the judge on you and you realize your purchase was fake. How would you feel?
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Cunning Spark Mage? $0.10
Basilisk Collar? $5.00
Shooting down a baneslayer angel? Priceless
What would you do? Call a judge, explain what I thought and why. Then they would likely inspect the players cards for me.
How would you feel? Really really ****ty, especially since I know what to look for when dealing with fakes. How in the world some big purchase like power 9 got past me is beyond me.
Situation: You're at a sanctioned event (SCG Open, GP, etc) and you're playing legacy (or vintage). Your opponent plays a card and you think it's fake. What do you do? What if your opponent thought the card was real? What if he knew it was fake and tried to cheat?
On the flipside: You just bought a power 9 the week before a tournament and halfway through, someone calls the judge on you and you realize your purchase was fake. How would you feel?
Situation 1: I'd call the judge and do everything in my power to force my opponent to get DQ-ed regardless of his intentions. Why? I did not travel miles and paid for lodging just to get beaten by a potentially fake card.
Situation 2: I'd first ask for apology from my opponent and make him understand my situation. I'll try to strike a compromise such as replacing the card with a sideboard card instead. If he doesn't agree I'll just say that I'll concede as long as he doesn't report it to the judge. If he pushes through then there's really nothing more I can do. It's just a card game.
Situation 1: I'd call the judge and do everything in my power to force my opponent to get DQ-ed regardless of his intentions. Why? I did not travel miles and paid for lodging just to get beaten by a potentially fake card.
Situation 2: I'd first ask for apology from my opponent and make him understand my situation. I'll try to strike a compromise such as replacing the card with a sideboard card instead. If he doesn't agree I'll just say that I'll concede as long as he doesn't report it to the judge. If he pushes through then there's really nothing more I can do. It's just a card game.
So in situation one you would assume they were totally guilty, but in situation two you would be willing to accept that perhaps your fakes are in your deck by no fault of your own? I just find that a little comical.
Aside from that, this looks like it will be either a game lose for a deck/decklist problem (with a potential fix) if the judges determine it was an unfortunate mistake, or a disqualification for cheating if the judges feel this was intentional. If you found yourself in this pickle I would urge you to call a judge about it. If they find out later that you were aware of the mistake and hid it from them, things could get a lot worse for you.
So in situation one you would assume they were totally guilty, but in situation two you would be willing to accept that perhaps your fakes are in your deck by no fault of your own? I just find that a little comical.
Aside from that, this looks like it will be either a game lose for a deck/decklist problem (with a potential fix) if the judges determine it was an unfortunate mistake, or a disqualification for cheating if the judges feel this was intentional. If you found yourself in this pickle I would urge you to call a judge about it. If they find out later that you were aware of the mistake and hid it from them, things could get a lot worse for you.
It's called taking advantage of every possible remedy to get the best result out of the tournament. We're not judges to ponder what's fair, we're litigants. It's the same as in litigation, whether you're the prosecutor or the defense attorney, you will raise arguments to your interests.
I highly doubt judges will determine it to be an "unfortunate mistake". They might let it slide in FNM but in bigger tournaments like GPs in all probability they'll immediately DQ you since they have no way of knowing your intentions. If they let it slide it will set a very bad precedent. The fact that you entered a counterfeit card, however, is a cold fact that's undisputed and it will indeed be taken against you.
It's called taking advantage of every possible remedy to get the best result out of the tournament. We're not judges to ponder what's fair, we're litigants. It's the same as in litigation, whether you're the prosecutor or the defense attorney, you will raise arguments to your interests.
I highly doubt judges will determine it to be an "unfortunate mistake". They might let it slide in FNM but in bigger tournaments like GPs in all probability they'll immediately DQ you since they have no way of knowing your intentions. If they let it slide it will set a very bad precedent. The fact that you entered a counterfeit card, however, is a cold fact that's undisputed and it will indeed be taken against you.
No, I think the humor he saw was how you were adamant in quickly going after the opponent who has the fake card and getting him dq'd (no question), but if it was you with the card, you'd want an apology to be accepted, and the chance to replace the fake card with a real one.
I find it funny how you don't seem to support treating others the way you want to be treated in the same situation.
On the original topic:
1. Call a judge, see if it really is fake or not.
2. Feel like crap that i burned a lot of cash for fake cards.
Situation 2: I'd first ask for apology from my opponent and make him understand my situation. I'll try to strike a compromise such as replacing the card with a sideboard card instead. If he doesn't agree I'll just say that I'll concede as long as he doesn't report it to the judge.
This is pretty much the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do and could get you in a lot of trouble.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
On the flipside: You just bought a power 9 the week before a tournament and halfway through, someone calls the judge on you and you realize your purchase was fake. How would you feel?
I have some difficulties believing that your opponent, 1) during a tournament, 2) in a sleeve, and 3) with other stuff he has to worry about (like the game) would be better able to recognize a fake card than somebody who is buying a card worth a car and, I assume, inspected it very carefully before handing over the cash. If you make these kind of big trades, ALWAYS bring somebody knowledgeable who can help you inspect that card.
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Currently Building:
WUBGR - Enchantment Realms - WUBGR
An all-enchantment EDH deck: 0 creatures, 0 artifacts, 0 instants and sorceries.
As is the like with any rules problem you should just call a judge. It really is nothing of the opponents business what happens to the player which finds him or herself in such a position.
What I'm wondering in a big vintage tournament Like the VIntage World Champs for instance is the judges there going to be able to check your cards out and give you the go ahead prior to the event?
What I'm wondering in a big vintage tournament Like the VIntage World Champs for instance is the judges there going to be able to check your cards out and give you the go ahead prior to the event?
No matter the size or format of the tournament, you can always ask the judge to inspect your cards for any reason. The vast majority will be happy to do so.
Thanks for the insight! I'm asking because I plan to play vintage soon, and I'm scared of buying fake Powers....
Once again, if you are planning on buying Power, I would suggest you do so in person or from a reputable and well-known business. Don't do it on eBay. If an individual sells it online and you want the card, hop on the car, get a friend that is knowledgeable and meet the seller so you can inspect the card in person before giving the cash. A honest seller would not mind allowing you to inspect his card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Building:
WUBGR - Enchantment Realms - WUBGR
An all-enchantment EDH deck: 0 creatures, 0 artifacts, 0 instants and sorceries.
It's called taking advantage of every possible remedy to get the best result out of the tournament. We're not judges to ponder what's fair, we're litigants. It's the same as in litigation, whether you're the prosecutor or the defense attorney, you will raise arguments to your interests.
I highly doubt judges will determine it to be an "unfortunate mistake". They might let it slide in FNM but in bigger tournaments like GPs in all probability they'll immediately DQ you since they have no way of knowing your intentions. If they let it slide it will set a very bad precedent. The fact that you entered a counterfeit card, however, is a cold fact that's undisputed and it will indeed be taken against you.
Thats actually not true at all, kinda recently a guy got caught with 6 archdruids in his deck at round 7-8 of a PTQ (or GP? idr) and they just gave him a warning even though its pretty obvious at that point that he was cheating. What really sealed the deal was when he used his garruk and refused to reveal bc he flipped the extra archdruid.
Thats actually not true at all, kinda recently a guy got caught with 6 archdruids in his deck at round 7-8 of a PTQ (or GP? idr) and they just gave him a warning even though its pretty obvious at that point that he was cheating. What really sealed the deal was when he used his garruk and refused to reveal bc he flipped the extra archdruid.
He definitely didn't get a warning. The player got a game loss for Deck/Deck List Problem since it was determined that the error occurred when the store gave him 6 druids instead of 4 and 2 of another cards, and the player just sleeved up the remaining cards. The judges felt the player was unaware of this error until it was brought to their attention, and we are in no place to pass judgement of a ruling of judges at an event we didn't attend.
Aside from that, I don't recall how it was brought to the judge's attention, but I don't remember reading the bolded part within the thread that discussed this topic.
After his deck was corrected and he received the correct penalty for it. You could argue that he had that advantage in his deck for so long that it affected the outcome of the event, and I can't disagree that it's very likely it contributed to his wins, but you also cannot provide objective hard evidence that it did. The fact of the matter is, the judge's determined it was unintentional, and there was good justification to support this, so although it was caught late in the event, it was caught and penalized based on the appropriate infraction.
You do know how against the rules saying "I'll do X if you don't report it to a judge" is right? I've heard of bannings (both at DCI and store level) for doing things like that in sanctioned events. Sure, it may be that your vintage event isn't major, but how can people trust you to play honest if you'll do that in minor events?
There's really no infraction for thisedit: Or I dun goofed and this is bribery... but it definitely supports the argument that the original actions were cheating if a player is trying to discourage his opponent from calling a judge on him when the error is caught. It's hard to say that you didn't know you were breaking a rule when you're begging your opponent to not call a judge on you for something like this.
EDIT: For my reply to asw122, I was thinking just of if there was an infraction for begging your opponent to not call a judge, and totally spaced on the "if you don't call a judge I'll concede to you" which is clearly bribery. To make it clearer, it's very similar to "if you give me a pack, I'll concede to you" or "If you give me [INCENTIVE] I'll give you [SPECIFIC MATCH RESULT]".
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I would only call a judge if I'm absolutely certain if the card is fake. If it's a Yoked Ox with "Tundra" written on it in Sharpie that the owner is using to tap for W, I'd call the judge. If it's an odd-looking Tundra where the printing is too dark, I'd probably just assume it was an error made during an early print run, even if it was a high-quality proxy that the user made himself.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
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On the flipside: You just bought a power 9 the week before a tournament and halfway through, someone calls the judge on you and you realize your purchase was fake. How would you feel?
Basilisk Collar? $5.00
Shooting down a baneslayer angel? Priceless
How would you feel? Really really ****ty, especially since I know what to look for when dealing with fakes. How in the world some big purchase like power 9 got past me is beyond me.
Situation 1: I'd call the judge and do everything in my power to force my opponent to get DQ-ed regardless of his intentions. Why? I did not travel miles and paid for lodging just to get beaten by a potentially fake card.
Situation 2: I'd first ask for apology from my opponent and make him understand my situation. I'll try to strike a compromise such as replacing the card with a sideboard card instead. If he doesn't agree I'll just say that I'll concede as long as he doesn't report it to the judge. If he pushes through then there's really nothing more I can do. It's just a card game.
So in situation one you would assume they were totally guilty, but in situation two you would be willing to accept that perhaps your fakes are in your deck by no fault of your own? I just find that a little comical.
Aside from that, this looks like it will be either a game lose for a deck/decklist problem (with a potential fix) if the judges determine it was an unfortunate mistake, or a disqualification for cheating if the judges feel this was intentional. If you found yourself in this pickle I would urge you to call a judge about it. If they find out later that you were aware of the mistake and hid it from them, things could get a lot worse for you.
It's called taking advantage of every possible remedy to get the best result out of the tournament. We're not judges to ponder what's fair, we're litigants. It's the same as in litigation, whether you're the prosecutor or the defense attorney, you will raise arguments to your interests.
I highly doubt judges will determine it to be an "unfortunate mistake". They might let it slide in FNM but in bigger tournaments like GPs in all probability they'll immediately DQ you since they have no way of knowing your intentions. If they let it slide it will set a very bad precedent. The fact that you entered a counterfeit card, however, is a cold fact that's undisputed and it will indeed be taken against you.
No, I think the humor he saw was how you were adamant in quickly going after the opponent who has the fake card and getting him dq'd (no question), but if it was you with the card, you'd want an apology to be accepted, and the chance to replace the fake card with a real one.
I find it funny how you don't seem to support treating others the way you want to be treated in the same situation.
On the original topic:
1. Call a judge, see if it really is fake or not.
2. Feel like crap that i burned a lot of cash for fake cards.
This is pretty much the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do and could get you in a lot of trouble.
I have some difficulties believing that your opponent, 1) during a tournament, 2) in a sleeve, and 3) with other stuff he has to worry about (like the game) would be better able to recognize a fake card than somebody who is buying a card worth a car and, I assume, inspected it very carefully before handing over the cash. If you make these kind of big trades, ALWAYS bring somebody knowledgeable who can help you inspect that card.
WUBGR - Enchantment Realms - WUBGR
An all-enchantment EDH deck: 0 creatures, 0 artifacts, 0 instants and sorceries.
GBUWR - The Necrotic Teenager and its 1,000,000 Combos - GBUWR
A deck built around Necrotic Ooze and its many friends.
What I'm wondering in a big vintage tournament Like the VIntage World Champs for instance is the judges there going to be able to check your cards out and give you the go ahead prior to the event?
Basilisk Collar? $5.00
Shooting down a baneslayer angel? Priceless
No matter the size or format of the tournament, you can always ask the judge to inspect your cards for any reason. The vast majority will be happy to do so.
Once again, if you are planning on buying Power, I would suggest you do so in person or from a reputable and well-known business. Don't do it on eBay. If an individual sells it online and you want the card, hop on the car, get a friend that is knowledgeable and meet the seller so you can inspect the card in person before giving the cash. A honest seller would not mind allowing you to inspect his card.
WUBGR - Enchantment Realms - WUBGR
An all-enchantment EDH deck: 0 creatures, 0 artifacts, 0 instants and sorceries.
GBUWR - The Necrotic Teenager and its 1,000,000 Combos - GBUWR
A deck built around Necrotic Ooze and its many friends.
Thats actually not true at all, kinda recently a guy got caught with 6 archdruids in his deck at round 7-8 of a PTQ (or GP? idr) and they just gave him a warning even though its pretty obvious at that point that he was cheating. What really sealed the deal was when he used his garruk and refused to reveal bc he flipped the extra archdruid.
He definitely didn't get a warning. The player got a game loss for Deck/Deck List Problem since it was determined that the error occurred when the store gave him 6 druids instead of 4 and 2 of another cards, and the player just sleeved up the remaining cards. The judges felt the player was unaware of this error until it was brought to their attention, and we are in no place to pass judgement of a ruling of judges at an event we didn't attend.
Aside from that, I don't recall how it was brought to the judge's attention, but I don't remember reading the bolded part within the thread that discussed this topic.
After his deck was corrected and he received the correct penalty for it. You could argue that he had that advantage in his deck for so long that it affected the outcome of the event, and I can't disagree that it's very likely it contributed to his wins, but you also cannot provide objective hard evidence that it did. The fact of the matter is, the judge's determined it was unintentional, and there was good justification to support this, so although it was caught late in the event, it was caught and penalized based on the appropriate infraction.
There's really no infraction for thisedit: Or I dun goofed and this is bribery... but it definitely supports the argument that the original actions were cheating if a player is trying to discourage his opponent from calling a judge on him when the error is caught. It's hard to say that you didn't know you were breaking a rule when you're begging your opponent to not call a judge on you for something like this.EDIT: For my reply to asw122, I was thinking just of if there was an infraction for begging your opponent to not call a judge, and totally spaced on the "if you don't call a judge I'll concede to you" which is clearly bribery. To make it clearer, it's very similar to "if you give me a pack, I'll concede to you" or "If you give me [INCENTIVE] I'll give you [SPECIFIC MATCH RESULT]".
You're right. I was thinking of just him begging for his opponent not to call a judge. But offering to concede if he won't call a judge is bribery.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit