So I was talking to another player and he was stressing how good Squadron Hawk is. He says it gives great "card advantage". Now I know that the more cards you have in hand, the more options and the more answers you have. However if you are holding onto a bunch of hawks, they don't do anything in terms of answers. Or maybe I drew into a bunch of lands.... If one was holding on to counterspells, cantrips, burn spells, etc. then yeah, I can see how that's card advantage.
Just because I'm is holding more cards (regardless of quality) than your opponent is considered card advantage? Not so sure about that....
It isn't an easy issue to define, for exactly the reasons you bring up. Every card isn't equal.
That said, generally speaking you could look at any effect that generates or deals with more cards than it uses as being capable of generating card advantage. Doesn't guarantee that it will, but in general that is a fine way of approaching it. Trying to come up with a more nuanced definition that captures every aspect of the idea is probably a lot more trouble than it is worth, and you would be better of with common sense and individual evaluations. So I wouldn't nitpick this kind of thing in a discussion with another player, if a card puts 3 more cards in your hand it is safe to refer to it as card advantage most of the time.
So your opponent uses up a removal spell on each hawk. Now you've just traded 4 of your opponent's removal spells for the 4 hawks, 3 of which just appeared in your hand as free bonus cards.
Meanwhile you've got a full grip of cards that you can be doing whatever you want with while your opponent is busy dealing with your 3 free hawks.
We had a real knock down drag out on this subject about a year or so ago where I was essentially called an idiot because I didn't know all the different forms of card advantage.
Trust me, once this thread gets going, you will see definitions of card advantage that will have you scratching your head wondering if we're all playing the same game.
See, in addition to actual card advantage there is also virtual card advantage. And that's where the waters get really murky. Some examples of this have already been pointed out.
As one person said, "I know it when I see it."
Having said all that, card advantage is not the be all and end all. Yes, in some decks (mostly control decks) it can literally mean the difference between winning and losing, especially when somebody pulls off a Sphinx's Revelation for 7 cards. It is almost impossible to come back from that.
But something like Hypnotic Spector, simply casting it is not card advantage. But each time it connects, assuming the opponent has at least one card in hand, it can be seen as card advantage. Some people might argue that. I don't know.
All I know is this is one discussion I've had my fill of.
So here's my final tip to you. Don't get too hung up on what CA actually is. Play the game, put the best deck together that you can in order to give yourself the best chance of winning, and let the rest take care of itself.
Card Advantage is tricky because it tends to go with 'tempo' a lot of the time.
Say your opponent is swinging in with Thundermaw Hellkite, and you Azorius Charm it to the top of the Library. Seems like card advantage, tastes like card advantage, should be card advantage. But it's not. Because that Azorius Charm didn't -rid- you of Thundermaw, it prevented it for one turn, sure it sets him back a turn and allows for you to draw another form of removal, hopefully a celestial flare or something, but in essence you played 2 cards, for 1 of his. He gained card advantage on you.
Now granted this isn't the end all be all of how a game is decided, I've beaten opponents with a full grip after a Sphinx Revelatin' all over their face. And I've been on the other side of the table where I had lots of options but the aggressive deck just got there too fast and if I had time or 'tempo' I could survive the situation.
So in essence card advantage is having more cards/resources than the opponent.
When you Electrolyze to kill one of your opponents creatures and draw a card, you gained card advantage. One of your resources replaced itself and got something of your opponents off the field. Now sure you can live the dream and kill Dark Confidant and a Liliana at 1 loyalty with Electrolyze, and effectively super 2for1 your opponent, and everyone loves to live the dream (also feels so super good!) But it doesn't always happen that way.
Utilize your resources, try and play spells timely, and remember, a towel... is one of the most massively useful things a player can bring with them.
Card Advantage is tricky because it tends to go with 'tempo' a lot of the time.
Say your opponent is swinging in with Thundermaw Hellkite, and you Azorius Charm it to the top of the Library. Seems like card advantage, tastes like card advantage, should be card advantage. But it's not. Because that Azorius Charm didn't -rid- you of Thundermaw, it prevented it for one turn, sure it sets him back a turn and allows for you to draw another form of removal, hopefully a celestial flare or something, but in essence you played 2 cards, for 1 of his. He gained card advantage on you.
FWIW the Thundermaw / Charm example here is actually card parity, not card advantage, and is actually a tempo advantage for the Charm player.
If that Charm was an Unsummon then you would be correct about it being card disadvantage. But the Charm puts the Hellkite back on top of the deck, which means that its owner has to use another draw (i.e. card) to get it back. Ultimately your Charm has traded 1:1 with that Hellkite in terms of cards, and has traded 2:5 in terms of mana, which is where the tempo edge comes into play.
When you later kill that same Hellkite with a Celestial Flare it is essentially the exact same trade, as you are trading 1:1 with cards and 2:5 with mana.
Even though you are ultimately using two cards to deal with that same Hellkite twice, which feels like card disadvantage, you are actually using two cards to deal with two of your opponent's draws. Which is the same as dealing with two of his cards.
But something like Hypnotic Spector, simply casting it is not card advantage. But each time it connects, assuming the opponent has at least one card in hand, it can be seen as card advantage. Some people might argue that. I don't know.
LOL yes, the age old controversy. Only CA if he doesn't die from a hundred different removal spells first.
Card Advantage is tricky because it tends to go with 'tempo' a lot of the time.
Say your opponent is swinging in with Thundermaw Hellkite, and you Azorius Charm it to the top of the Library. Seems like card advantage, tastes like card advantage, should be card advantage. But it's not. Because that Azorius Charm didn't -rid- you of Thundermaw, it prevented it for one turn, sure it sets him back a turn and allows for you to draw another form of removal, hopefully a celestial flare or something, but in essence you played 2 cards, for 1 of his. He gained card advantage on you.
This is a poor example, because this isn't straight card disadvantage either. You got rid of 1 of his cards with one of your own, which is equal CA, not a disadvantage.
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1. It allows me to express multiple thoughts without a need to write an essay or make multiple posts. 2. I tend to have multiple thoughts at the same time. 3. Having the right first opinion is sometimes more glorious than having a grammatically correct second opinion. 4. It allows you as a reader to pick out the most erroneous point and counter-comment, allowing you the chance to express an opinion and look like a sensible person when I sound like a dummy.
FWIW the Thundermaw / Charm example here is actually card parity, not card advantage, and is actually a tempo advantage for the Charm player.
If that Charm was an Unsummon then you would be correct about it being card disadvantage. But the Charm puts the Hellkite back on top of the deck, which means that its owner has to use another draw (i.e. card) to get it back. Ultimately your Charm has traded 1:1 with that Hellkite in terms of cards, and has traded 2:5 in terms of mana, which is where the tempo edge comes into play.
When you later kill that same Hellkite with a Celestial Flare it is essentially the exact same trade, as you are trading 1:1 with cards and 2:5 with mana.
Even though you are ultimately using two cards to deal with that same Hellkite twice, which feels like card disadvantage, you are actually using two cards to deal with two of your opponent's draws. Which is the same as dealing with two of his cards.
And thus why this whole discussion drives me up a wall. That is the most convoluted explanation of card advantage I've ever heard in 20 years of playing this game. Really? I need a freaking PhD just to follow what the hell you're talking about.
Yes folks, we can nit pick this topic right into the graveyard.
Which is where all of this crap ends up eventually anyway, which makes it all the more fitting.
Un-freaking-believable.
Infraction issued for trolling and flamebaiting. -Xen
*scratches head* It tends to go with tempo ? The concept or the style of decks? Either way, I don't see a relation between them. Can you explain?
It doesn't seem like card advantage, it doesn't taste like card advantage, and it definitely isn't >_<...
What? That makes no sense! Tempo is a concept that describes an early advantage, an edge in the early game. "If you had time or tempo" makes no sense.
I am so confused right now...
Thank God. I thought it was just me. And now is where this thread will start to get interesting.
I give it 10 pages before it gets shut down.
All kidding aside, a lot of what some people call CA I just don't get. I'm dead serious. I read it over and over and over and I'm still sitting their scratching my head wondering if I'm really that stupid or maybe they're just flat out wrong.
You use a doom blade to kill an avacyn's pilgrim enchanted with unflinching courage. You used 1 card to get rid of 2 of theirs.
You play a thragtusk. They play a doom blade to kill it, then another doom blade to kill the token. They used 2 cards to get rid one one of yours.
Both are simple card advantage. Card advantage is only one part of the game, then you got to start worrying about tempo and opportunity cost, and what the play is actually costing you beyond actual cards.
And thus why this whole discussion drives me up a wall. That is the most convoluted explanation of card advantage I've ever heard in 20 years of playing this game. Really? I need a freaking PhD just to follow what the hell you're talking about.
Yes folks, we can nit pick this topic right into the graveyard.
Which is where all of this crap ends up eventually anyway, which makes it all the more fitting.
Un-freaking-believable.
That is probably just my fault for not giving a very concise explanation. That example is actually very simple and is something any regular Magic player should be able to understand.
Opponent has 7 cards in hand and spends one card to play Hellkite.
You have 7 cards in hand and spend one card to put that Hellkite back on top of their library.
Both players have spent one card at this point, thus no card advantage either way. Both players have 6 cards in hand.
Opponent redraws Hellkite, going up to 7 cards again, then casts it, going back down to 6.
You drew Celestial Dawn on your turn and now have 7 cards in hand when they attack with that Hellkite. You kill the Hellkite, going down to 6 cards again.
Again, both players used one card, those cards traded evenly, 1:1, thus no one gained card advantage.
Now if instead of returning the Hellkite the top of the library with a Charm, you had returned it to his hand with a bounce spell, that would change the math. Now instead of the opponent having to redraw the Hellkite he already has it in hand and is drawing an additional card, putting him one card ahead of you instead of even.
This is why effects that bounce things to the top of the library tend to cost so much more than those that bounce to the hand. Compare Time Ebb to Disperse and you can see that. They can feel very similar when you play them, but the one that just bounces to hand is actually putting you down one card vs the opponent, whereas the other keeps you even.
Hooray! Another 'what's card advantage thread!' =D
Having your opponent use more than one card to get rid of one of yours. e.g. 2 kill spells on your persist creature.
Or using 1 of your cards to deal with multiple of theirs. e.g. Supreme Verdict their 3 creatures when you have none.
CA in its simpliest form imo.
*scratches head* It tends to go with tempo ? The concept or the style of decks? Either way, I don't see a relation between them. Can you explain?
It doesn't seem like card advantage, it doesn't taste like card advantage, and it definitely isn't >_<...
What? That makes no sense! Tempo is a concept that describes an early advantage, an edge in the early game. "If you had time or tempo" makes no sense.
I am so confused right now...
That's not really what Tempo is. Tempo is the advantage gained from being able to play more efficient and more powerful cards in a timely fashion due to efficient allocation of resources. Tempo is often gained in the early game by playing things like mana acceleration, but the concept itself isn't necessarily rated to an early game advantage. For example, Sphinx's Revelation decks in standard often play a lot of very cheap spells so that they can cast multiple spells in one turn after a big revelation. If your jund opponent is casting one big spell a turn then you can gain a lot of advantage from casting a bunch of spells that all have an impact on the game. Being able to cast a bunch of spells in one turn generates tempo and velocity at any point in the game regardless of how many turns in you are.
Hooray! Another 'what's card advantage thread!' =D
Having your opponent use more than one card to get rid of one of yours. e.g. 2 kill spells on your persist creature.
Or using 1 of your cards to deal with multiple of theirs. e.g. Supreme Verdict their 3 creatures when you have none.
CA in its simpliest form imo.
Yeah, exactly. Another one.
I think one of the biggest arguments we had during the last one was when exactly Think Twice become CA.
Was it during the initial casting or was it when you flashed it back from the graveyard? I don't remember what the majority "claimed" but it was the topic of conversation that I think ultimately lead to the closing of the thread.
I think people get too hung up on CA. I know my Legacy Goblins deck has CA in the form of Ringleader and Matron, but really, if that deck doesn't kill you by turn 4 anyway, you're probably not going to win.
Lots of winning decks throughout the history of this game did not rely on CA to win.
You guys are right, tempo DECKS focus on it early, but the concept isn't just applied in the early game. Thing is, that has ZERO to do with card advantage and instead card quality and mana availabiltiy.
You're not necessarily wrong, but the concepts are more related than you might think. Delver was a Tempo deck that played very efficient and cheap cards like its namesake and Vapor Snag in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage to develop an early lead on tempo and then kill the opponent. The important thing to keep in mind is that if I kill you while you have 4 cards in hand then you might as well have discarded those cards. Cards you never cast might as well not even exist, and Tempo can generate "card advantage" by developing so much advantage that your opponent is dead before the cards that they have matter. The same principle applies to developing an early board presence. It doesn't matter if you finally get to 6 mana and cast Primeval Titan if I kill you with two Delvers and a Geist on the next turn. Your card came down too late to have an impact on the game, so it doesn't exist.
Card advantage can be defined by looking at total number of permanents, cards in hand, and relevant cards in the graveyard. (Also, just for completeness, relevant cards in exile, mostly Misthollow Griffin or cards exiled by Necropotence or Intet, the Dreamer.)
You gain card advantage in several ways:
Playing a threat that also answers something, such as Boneshredder
Saving one of your own threats and answering another threat, such as a well-timed Giant Growth or Briarpack Alpha
Playing with mechanics like flashback and undying, where you get an "extra use" out of the card. Also, Reassembling Skeleton and friends fit this trope.
Similarly, cards like Lava Axe and Bone Splinters lose card advantage. Auras and certain cards like Grafted Exoskeleton fit this trope as well. Note that Ball Lightning has been in many winning decks, despite being pure card disadvantage; that's because Ball Lightning gains tempo enough in those decks to put it at an advantage.
That's a rather simplistic look at it, of course. There are also cards that do nothing on card advantage, but are still "card advantage" because they do something else. A kicked Into the Roil, a Hideous End, and a Fuel for the Cause all are "card advantage" of a sort, since they're neutral on card advantage but actually do something; they're not as good as pure card advantage, though.
Conversely, an answer may be "blanked". It's important to measure the value of an answer for this reason. For instance, I'm pretty sure Lightning Bolt is always relevant in Modern; a lot of creatures with toughness ≤ 3 are commonly played in Modern (Bob, for instance). On the flip side, Deathmark is kinda worthless against a deck that doesn't use a green or white creatures.
You can also blank cards by making them unfeasible, by destroying lands, for instance. Or using Rule of Law against decks that work off of counting the number of spells cast.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Lots of winning decks throughout the history of this game did not rely on CA to win.
That's true. OTOH it is one of the fundamentals of the game and understanding it is very important when it comes to card evaluation, evaluating lines of play, and the "whys" behind decisions.
I think in general it tends to matter far more in limited than it does in constructed, and understanding and taking advantage of it is bigger their too. In constructed things like tempo and synergy tend to be much bigger factors than raw card advantage. But in limited the former tend to be lacking while the latter can often decide a game.
I think in essence you are talking about 2 related things.
Theoretical Card advantage and actual card advantage.
Theoretical card advantage would be a measure of how many cards each player gets the opportunity to use during a game. For example... if you draw Disenchant against an opponent with no artifacts or enchantments and you have no way to discard or use it in a productive manner, that card might as well not be a card and it would not count towards actual card advantage, only theoretical. You could also look at a card that can have multiple targets as theoretical card advantage but until you use it it's just a card.
Actual card advantage would be the count of how many cards were used by each player in a useful way. So if you cast Pyroclasm and kill 2 creatures it would count as +1. If you kill 2 tokens that came from the same card it would be an even trade. If your opponent stormed up a bunch of spells and played Empty the warrens for 10 and then you pyroclasm you could count each of the storm cards against your opponents card advantage to get a gauge of actual card advantage.
It is an important distinction to make during deck building. Pyroclasm can represent card advantage or disadvantage depending on the matchup and then meta game decisions come into play.
Based on my experiences, there are 4 related concepts that all mean different things: Card Advantage; Virtual Card Advantage; Card Quality; Tempo.
What do these mean?
Card Advantage - The number of raw usable cards available to you in relation to your opponent. Typically this only looks at hand sizes and what's in play. Examples: Divination, Wrath of God on more than one opponent's creature and none of your own, Squadron Hawk, Disturbed Burial. A difficult to see form of card advantage would be Plow under. By putting two cards on top of the opponent's library, you spent a single card, to force them to redraw two cards they have already drawn, essentially denying them two draws. Plow Under is also a form of Tempo. Related deck type: Control.
Virtual Card Advantage - When a card generates or denies to your opponent a card-like object, such as a token or flashback spell in the graveyard. Examples: Sprout Swarm generates a token and sticks around when you buy it back. Firebolt can be used a second time with flashback, so the first cast is virtual card advantage. If you use it twice to remove creature cards from your opponent, then it also generates actual card advantage. Most planeswalkers, which essentially cast free spells every turn. Related deck type: I'm not entirely sure. Most decks make use of this secondarily to the other ones. Maybe token based decks like the Lingering Souls/Doomed Traveler/Midnight Haunting deck that was in standard a while back?
Card Quality - When your cards are essentially worth more than your opponent's cards. Examples: Pretty much any to-hand tutor. Creatures with undying. Tarmogoyf. Related deck types: Midrange and Goodstuff decks. Note: Card quality type decks are incredibly easy to see in limited. Just try drafting a deck filled with cmc 4-6 big guys and play against your opponents.
Tempo - When you disrupt or outpace your opponent, winning before your opponent can gain enough mana or turns to cast their spells. Examples: Remand and Memory Lapse. Burn spells to the dome. Stone Rain. Cheap creatures with haste. Related deck types: Suicide black. Red aggro decks. Land destruction.
All of these are useful in winning, and only a single one won't matter if the others aren't in place either. Having infinite card advantage won't matter if they're all Kobols of Kher Keep. But put swords on Squadron Hawks, and you have a deck.
Special edited addition edition! I've seen all of the above called card advantage, but I honestly think referring to them all under the same name is misleading. They are not even close to being the same. They should absolutely have different terms associated with them in order to reduce confusion in communication. That is the entire purpose of language and new words. It makes no sense to say you've gained card advantage by killing your opponent before they could cast those 4 cards in hand.
And thus why this whole discussion drives me up a wall. That is the most convoluted explanation of card advantage I've ever heard in 20 years of playing this game. Really? I need a freaking PhD just to follow what the hell you're talking about.
Yes folks, we can nit pick this topic right into the graveyard.
Which is where all of this crap ends up eventually anyway, which makes it all the more fitting.
Un-freaking-believable.
Putting cards back into the library negates a draw. Upheaval is the perfect example. It clearly removes the next two "normal" draws by returning two cards that have already been drawn. A card that destroys or discards is the same advantage as returning something to the library.
Based on my experiences, there are 4 related concepts that all mean different things: Card Advantage; Virtual Card Advantage; Card Quality; Tempo.
What do these mean?
Card Advantage - The number of raw usable cards available to you in relation to your opponent. Examples: Divination, Wrath of God on more than one opponent's creature, Squadron Hawk, Disturbed Burial. Related deck type: Control.
Virtual Card Advantage - When a card generates or denies to your opponent a card-like object, such as a token or flashback spell in the graveyard. Examples: Sprout Swarm generates a token and sticks around when you buy it back. Firebolt can be used a second time with flashback, so the first cast is virtual card advantage. If you use it twice to remove creature cards from your opponent, then it also generates actual card advantage. Most planeswalkers, which essentially cast free spells every turn. Related deck type: I'm not entirely sure. Most decks don't make use of this secondarily to the other ones.
Card Quality - When your cards are essentially worth more than your opponent's cards. Examples: Pretty much any to-hand tutor. Creatures with undying. Tarmogoyf. Related deck types: Midrange and Goodstuff decks.
Tempo - When you disrupt or outpace your opponent, winning before your opponent can gain enough mana or turns to cast their spells. Examples: Remand and Memory Lapse. Burn spells to the dome. Stone Rain. Cheap creatures with haste. Related deck types: Suicide black. Red aggro decks. Land destruction.
All of these are useful in winning, and only a single one won't matter if the others aren't in place either. Having infinite card advantage won't matter if they're all Kobols of Kher Keep. But put swords on Squadron Hawks, and you have a deck.
Virtual card advantage is making cards useless. Playing a Hexproof creature is virtual card advantage against a hand full of removal, as they might as well not be there.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Virtual card advantage is making cards useless. Playing a Hexproof creature is virtual card advantage against a hand full of removal, as they might as well not be there.
I included that what I said "or denies to your opponent a card-like object". I just didn't give it as an example, since it's not entirely clear when Hexproof is and is not virtual card advantage. Hexproof is only virtual card advantage if you have no non-hexproofed creatures. You're not denying them a card. You're denying them the chance to use the card.
Just because I'm is holding more cards (regardless of quality) than your opponent is considered card advantage? Not so sure about that....
What do you think?
But yeah, card advantage is based on the cards you have in advantage of your opponent.
That said, generally speaking you could look at any effect that generates or deals with more cards than it uses as being capable of generating card advantage. Doesn't guarantee that it will, but in general that is a fine way of approaching it. Trying to come up with a more nuanced definition that captures every aspect of the idea is probably a lot more trouble than it is worth, and you would be better of with common sense and individual evaluations. So I wouldn't nitpick this kind of thing in a discussion with another player, if a card puts 3 more cards in your hand it is safe to refer to it as card advantage most of the time.
So your opponent uses up a removal spell on each hawk. Now you've just traded 4 of your opponent's removal spells for the 4 hawks, 3 of which just appeared in your hand as free bonus cards.
Meanwhile you've got a full grip of cards that you can be doing whatever you want with while your opponent is busy dealing with your 3 free hawks.
Trust me, once this thread gets going, you will see definitions of card advantage that will have you scratching your head wondering if we're all playing the same game.
See, in addition to actual card advantage there is also virtual card advantage. And that's where the waters get really murky. Some examples of this have already been pointed out.
As one person said, "I know it when I see it."
Having said all that, card advantage is not the be all and end all. Yes, in some decks (mostly control decks) it can literally mean the difference between winning and losing, especially when somebody pulls off a Sphinx's Revelation for 7 cards. It is almost impossible to come back from that.
But something like Hypnotic Spector, simply casting it is not card advantage. But each time it connects, assuming the opponent has at least one card in hand, it can be seen as card advantage. Some people might argue that. I don't know.
All I know is this is one discussion I've had my fill of.
So here's my final tip to you. Don't get too hung up on what CA actually is. Play the game, put the best deck together that you can in order to give yourself the best chance of winning, and let the rest take care of itself.
Say your opponent is swinging in with Thundermaw Hellkite, and you Azorius Charm it to the top of the Library. Seems like card advantage, tastes like card advantage, should be card advantage. But it's not. Because that Azorius Charm didn't -rid- you of Thundermaw, it prevented it for one turn, sure it sets him back a turn and allows for you to draw another form of removal, hopefully a celestial flare or something, but in essence you played 2 cards, for 1 of his. He gained card advantage on you.
Now granted this isn't the end all be all of how a game is decided, I've beaten opponents with a full grip after a Sphinx Revelatin' all over their face. And I've been on the other side of the table where I had lots of options but the aggressive deck just got there too fast and if I had time or 'tempo' I could survive the situation.
So in essence card advantage is having more cards/resources than the opponent.
When you Electrolyze to kill one of your opponents creatures and draw a card, you gained card advantage. One of your resources replaced itself and got something of your opponents off the field. Now sure you can live the dream and kill Dark Confidant and a Liliana at 1 loyalty with Electrolyze, and effectively super 2for1 your opponent, and everyone loves to live the dream (also feels so super good!) But it doesn't always happen that way.
Utilize your resources, try and play spells timely, and remember, a towel... is one of the most massively useful things a player can bring with them.
Then you activate Jace's 0 ability, and draw three cards, you put back two squadron hawks, then crack a fetchland.
Voilà, instant card advantage.
FWIW the Thundermaw / Charm example here is actually card parity, not card advantage, and is actually a tempo advantage for the Charm player.
If that Charm was an Unsummon then you would be correct about it being card disadvantage. But the Charm puts the Hellkite back on top of the deck, which means that its owner has to use another draw (i.e. card) to get it back. Ultimately your Charm has traded 1:1 with that Hellkite in terms of cards, and has traded 2:5 in terms of mana, which is where the tempo edge comes into play.
When you later kill that same Hellkite with a Celestial Flare it is essentially the exact same trade, as you are trading 1:1 with cards and 2:5 with mana.
Even though you are ultimately using two cards to deal with that same Hellkite twice, which feels like card disadvantage, you are actually using two cards to deal with two of your opponent's draws. Which is the same as dealing with two of his cards.
LOL yes, the age old controversy. Only CA if he doesn't die from a hundred different removal spells first.
He has lived in this state of conflict his whole life, running from Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Unsummon. With him, is his closest companion, Dark Ritual and his naughty mistress Unholy Strength that follow him to the grave for a 3 for 1
Ahhhhhh hippy. If only you were hexproof. I still love you.
My Buying Thread
This is a poor example, because this isn't straight card disadvantage either. You got rid of 1 of his cards with one of your own, which is equal CA, not a disadvantage.
1. It allows me to express multiple thoughts without a need to write an essay or make multiple posts.
2. I tend to have multiple thoughts at the same time.
3. Having the right first opinion is sometimes more glorious than having a grammatically correct second opinion.
4. It allows you as a reader to pick out the most erroneous point and counter-comment, allowing you the chance to express an opinion and look like a sensible person when I sound like a dummy.
And thus why this whole discussion drives me up a wall. That is the most convoluted explanation of card advantage I've ever heard in 20 years of playing this game. Really? I need a freaking PhD just to follow what the hell you're talking about.
Yes folks, we can nit pick this topic right into the graveyard.
Which is where all of this crap ends up eventually anyway, which makes it all the more fitting.
Un-freaking-believable.
Infraction issued for trolling and flamebaiting. -Xen
Thank God. I thought it was just me. And now is where this thread will start to get interesting.
I give it 10 pages before it gets shut down.
All kidding aside, a lot of what some people call CA I just don't get. I'm dead serious. I read it over and over and over and I'm still sitting their scratching my head wondering if I'm really that stupid or maybe they're just flat out wrong.
You play a thragtusk. They play a doom blade to kill it, then another doom blade to kill the token. They used 2 cards to get rid one one of yours.
Both are simple card advantage. Card advantage is only one part of the game, then you got to start worrying about tempo and opportunity cost, and what the play is actually costing you beyond actual cards.
That is probably just my fault for not giving a very concise explanation. That example is actually very simple and is something any regular Magic player should be able to understand.
Opponent has 7 cards in hand and spends one card to play Hellkite.
You have 7 cards in hand and spend one card to put that Hellkite back on top of their library.
Both players have spent one card at this point, thus no card advantage either way. Both players have 6 cards in hand.
Opponent redraws Hellkite, going up to 7 cards again, then casts it, going back down to 6.
You drew Celestial Dawn on your turn and now have 7 cards in hand when they attack with that Hellkite. You kill the Hellkite, going down to 6 cards again.
Again, both players used one card, those cards traded evenly, 1:1, thus no one gained card advantage.
Now if instead of returning the Hellkite the top of the library with a Charm, you had returned it to his hand with a bounce spell, that would change the math. Now instead of the opponent having to redraw the Hellkite he already has it in hand and is drawing an additional card, putting him one card ahead of you instead of even.
This is why effects that bounce things to the top of the library tend to cost so much more than those that bounce to the hand. Compare Time Ebb to Disperse and you can see that. They can feel very similar when you play them, but the one that just bounces to hand is actually putting you down one card vs the opponent, whereas the other keeps you even.
Having your opponent use more than one card to get rid of one of yours. e.g. 2 kill spells on your persist creature.
Or using 1 of your cards to deal with multiple of theirs. e.g. Supreme Verdict their 3 creatures when you have none.
CA in its simpliest form imo.
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That's not really what Tempo is. Tempo is the advantage gained from being able to play more efficient and more powerful cards in a timely fashion due to efficient allocation of resources. Tempo is often gained in the early game by playing things like mana acceleration, but the concept itself isn't necessarily rated to an early game advantage. For example, Sphinx's Revelation decks in standard often play a lot of very cheap spells so that they can cast multiple spells in one turn after a big revelation. If your jund opponent is casting one big spell a turn then you can gain a lot of advantage from casting a bunch of spells that all have an impact on the game. Being able to cast a bunch of spells in one turn generates tempo and velocity at any point in the game regardless of how many turns in you are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_%28Magic:_The_Gathering%29
Yeah, exactly. Another one.
I think one of the biggest arguments we had during the last one was when exactly Think Twice become CA.
Was it during the initial casting or was it when you flashed it back from the graveyard? I don't remember what the majority "claimed" but it was the topic of conversation that I think ultimately lead to the closing of the thread.
I think people get too hung up on CA. I know my Legacy Goblins deck has CA in the form of Ringleader and Matron, but really, if that deck doesn't kill you by turn 4 anyway, you're probably not going to win.
Lots of winning decks throughout the history of this game did not rely on CA to win.
You're not necessarily wrong, but the concepts are more related than you might think. Delver was a Tempo deck that played very efficient and cheap cards like its namesake and Vapor Snag in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage to develop an early lead on tempo and then kill the opponent. The important thing to keep in mind is that if I kill you while you have 4 cards in hand then you might as well have discarded those cards. Cards you never cast might as well not even exist, and Tempo can generate "card advantage" by developing so much advantage that your opponent is dead before the cards that they have matter. The same principle applies to developing an early board presence. It doesn't matter if you finally get to 6 mana and cast Primeval Titan if I kill you with two Delvers and a Geist on the next turn. Your card came down too late to have an impact on the game, so it doesn't exist.
You gain card advantage in several ways:
Similarly, cards like Lava Axe and Bone Splinters lose card advantage. Auras and certain cards like Grafted Exoskeleton fit this trope as well. Note that Ball Lightning has been in many winning decks, despite being pure card disadvantage; that's because Ball Lightning gains tempo enough in those decks to put it at an advantage.
That's a rather simplistic look at it, of course. There are also cards that do nothing on card advantage, but are still "card advantage" because they do something else. A kicked Into the Roil, a Hideous End, and a Fuel for the Cause all are "card advantage" of a sort, since they're neutral on card advantage but actually do something; they're not as good as pure card advantage, though.
Conversely, an answer may be "blanked". It's important to measure the value of an answer for this reason. For instance, I'm pretty sure Lightning Bolt is always relevant in Modern; a lot of creatures with toughness ≤ 3 are commonly played in Modern (Bob, for instance). On the flip side, Deathmark is kinda worthless against a deck that doesn't use a green or white creatures.
You can also blank cards by making them unfeasible, by destroying lands, for instance. Or using Rule of Law against decks that work off of counting the number of spells cast.
On phasing:
That's true. OTOH it is one of the fundamentals of the game and understanding it is very important when it comes to card evaluation, evaluating lines of play, and the "whys" behind decisions.
I think in general it tends to matter far more in limited than it does in constructed, and understanding and taking advantage of it is bigger their too. In constructed things like tempo and synergy tend to be much bigger factors than raw card advantage. But in limited the former tend to be lacking while the latter can often decide a game.
Theoretical Card advantage and actual card advantage.
Theoretical card advantage would be a measure of how many cards each player gets the opportunity to use during a game. For example... if you draw Disenchant against an opponent with no artifacts or enchantments and you have no way to discard or use it in a productive manner, that card might as well not be a card and it would not count towards actual card advantage, only theoretical. You could also look at a card that can have multiple targets as theoretical card advantage but until you use it it's just a card.
Actual card advantage would be the count of how many cards were used by each player in a useful way. So if you cast Pyroclasm and kill 2 creatures it would count as +1. If you kill 2 tokens that came from the same card it would be an even trade. If your opponent stormed up a bunch of spells and played Empty the warrens for 10 and then you pyroclasm you could count each of the storm cards against your opponents card advantage to get a gauge of actual card advantage.
It is an important distinction to make during deck building. Pyroclasm can represent card advantage or disadvantage depending on the matchup and then meta game decisions come into play.
What do these mean?
Card Advantage - The number of raw usable cards available to you in relation to your opponent. Typically this only looks at hand sizes and what's in play.
Examples: Divination, Wrath of God on more than one opponent's creature and none of your own, Squadron Hawk, Disturbed Burial. A difficult to see form of card advantage would be Plow under. By putting two cards on top of the opponent's library, you spent a single card, to force them to redraw two cards they have already drawn, essentially denying them two draws. Plow Under is also a form of Tempo.
Related deck type: Control.
Virtual Card Advantage - When a card generates or denies to your opponent a card-like object, such as a token or flashback spell in the graveyard.
Examples: Sprout Swarm generates a token and sticks around when you buy it back. Firebolt can be used a second time with flashback, so the first cast is virtual card advantage. If you use it twice to remove creature cards from your opponent, then it also generates actual card advantage. Most planeswalkers, which essentially cast free spells every turn.
Related deck type: I'm not entirely sure. Most decks make use of this secondarily to the other ones. Maybe token based decks like the Lingering Souls/Doomed Traveler/Midnight Haunting deck that was in standard a while back?
Card Quality - When your cards are essentially worth more than your opponent's cards.
Examples: Pretty much any to-hand tutor. Creatures with undying. Tarmogoyf.
Related deck types: Midrange and Goodstuff decks.
Note: Card quality type decks are incredibly easy to see in limited. Just try drafting a deck filled with cmc 4-6 big guys and play against your opponents.
Tempo - When you disrupt or outpace your opponent, winning before your opponent can gain enough mana or turns to cast their spells.
Examples: Remand and Memory Lapse. Burn spells to the dome. Stone Rain. Cheap creatures with haste.
Related deck types: Suicide black. Red aggro decks. Land destruction.
All of these are useful in winning, and only a single one won't matter if the others aren't in place either. Having infinite card advantage won't matter if they're all Kobols of Kher Keep. But put swords on Squadron Hawks, and you have a deck.
Special edited addition edition! I've seen all of the above called card advantage, but I honestly think referring to them all under the same name is misleading. They are not even close to being the same. They should absolutely have different terms associated with them in order to reduce confusion in communication. That is the entire purpose of language and new words. It makes no sense to say you've gained card advantage by killing your opponent before they could cast those 4 cards in hand.
Putting cards back into the library negates a draw. Upheaval is the perfect example. It clearly removes the next two "normal" draws by returning two cards that have already been drawn. A card that destroys or discards is the same advantage as returning something to the library.
Virtual card advantage is making cards useless. Playing a Hexproof creature is virtual card advantage against a hand full of removal, as they might as well not be there.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
If they are, is Ancient Tomb also card advantage?
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I included that what I said "or denies to your opponent a card-like object". I just didn't give it as an example, since it's not entirely clear when Hexproof is and is not virtual card advantage. Hexproof is only virtual card advantage if you have no non-hexproofed creatures. You're not denying them a card. You're denying them the chance to use the card.
Both those would be card quality. You're playing lands that are worth roughly two lands.