the release notes for Theros say:
"In a Commander game, if a commander is put into the command zone instead of being exiled by Curse of the Swine, its controller will still get a Boar token."
Why does that work? Or rather: How is this different from, for example, Fracturing Gust trying to destroy an artifact that regenerates? I wouldn't gain any life there -- in both cases (Curse and Gust), a replacement effect stops the event that is thereafter mentioned/asked for from happening.
I thought maybe the answer would be in some weird "to exile" definition that might also work when the card moves to the command zone, but that's not it.
(EDIT: Also looked if the commander replacement effect would say something weird like, "exile it, but put it..." or something. But that's not how it works, either)
It works because the creature's controller getting a Boar token is not contingent on the creature being exiled, and putting a commander into the command zone doesn't counter Curse of the Swine, so it does everything it can when it resolves. An artifact that regenerates after Fracturing Gust tries to destroy it wasn't actually destroyed (regeneration replaces the destruction with "remove all damage from it, remove it from combat if it's a creature, and tap it"), so Fracturing Gust's controller wouldn't gain any life.
Similarly, putting a commander into the command zone instead of into a graveyard or into exile is a replacement effect. Curse of the Swine's effect basically becomes "Put the creature into the command zone, then its controller gets a token".
It works because the creature's controller getting a Boar token is not contingent on the creature being exiled
Why isn't it? It specifically says "For each creature exiled this way," and from 406.2 "An exiled card is a card that’s been put into the exile zone."
Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect, and the commander command-zone replacement effect replaces being exiled. Given that the templating appears to be identical, why would the rulings be different?
It works because the creature's controller getting a Boar token is not contingent on the creature being exiled
The rules text of Curse of the Swine begs to differ:
Exile X target creatures. For each creature exiled this way, its controller puts a 2/2 green Boar creature token onto the battlefield.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sometimes those with the most sin cast the first stones.
That's my fault for not reading the card. In that case, the commander's controller shouldn't get a token, asthe commander wasn't exiled.
Incorrect, as the original person pointed out by quoting the FAQ. "In a Commander game, if a commander is put into the command zone instead of being exiled by Curse of the Swine, its controller will still get a Boar token."
The reason this works is similar to the difference between "for each one destroyed" and "for each one put into the graveyard this way", with "for each one exiled" being aligned with the former. If Rest in Peace is out, and you cast Fracturing Gust, you'll still gain life, because all the cards are still destroyed, they just get sent to a different place than normal when they are. Contrast with Terastodon, which explicitly states that the permanents have to be placed in the graveyard for it's ability to care. Similarly, like Fracturing Gust, Curse of the Swine doesn't care where the cards end up, as long as they perform the action of being exiled, so as long as the commander is exiled (the action), it doesn't care if he ends up in the exile zone itself.
I think its for similar reasons as Scion of the Ur-Dragon will transform, even if the card is not placed in the graveyard. You just have to try to do as much as is being asked. So Scion + Wheel of Sun and Moon, will still get you a transforming Scion, even thought the graveyard bit was replaced.
@wallycaine: No, that's not it. The action to exile something is to put it into the exile zone. This gets replaced by the Commander's replacement effect. It is not like Rest in Peace with Fracturing Gust; Fracturing Gust still destroys there, the cards are just put somewhere else (as you said). Here, the commander doesn't get exiled "to somewhere else", because such a thing doesn't exist.
@zer0faults: That's an entire horse entirely. Scion doesn't care where the card is going at all. You could compare that with something as simple as a Sword to Plowshares, which obviously still gives life if the commander goes back to the Command Zone -- it doesn't refer the action or the zone at all! (instead just refers to "that card"/"creature")
Basically, I agree with SyntheticDreamer that this is a mistake. But it is coming from the Rules Manager, after all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sometimes those with the most sin cast the first stones.
@wallycaine: No, that's not it. The action to exile something is to put it into the exile zone. This gets replaced by the Commander's replacement effect. It is not like Rest in Peace with Fracturing Gust; Fracturing Gust still destroys there, the cards are just put somewhere else (as you said). Here, the commander doesn't get exiled "to somewhere else", because such a thing doesn't exist.
Basically, I agree with SyntheticDreamer that this is a mistake. But it is coming from the Rules Manager, after all.
You still exile it, just the commander replacement effect changes the normal exile instruction to move it to the command zone. It is the same way things count as being discards when rest in peace you did a specific action, just because that it was changed to something else.
The only reason regen didn't work in that case is because regen says the creature isn't being destroyed, while the commander effect doesn't say don't exile it.
You still exile it, just the commander replacement effect changes the normal exile instruction to move it to the command zone. It is the same way things count as being discards when rest in peace you did a specific action, just because that it was changed to something else.
The only reason regen didn't work in that case is because regen says the creature isn't being destroyed, while the commander effect doesn't say don't exile it.
701.6a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner’s graveyard. 701.9a To exile an object, move it to the exile zone from wherever it is. See rule 406, “Exile.”
Alright, interesting, let's work with that.
614.8. Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect. The word “instead” doesn’t appear on the card but is implicit in the definition of regeneration. “Regenerate [permanent]” means “The next time [permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.”
903.12. If a commander would be put into the exile zone from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead.
So you are saying: Regeneration is replacing the event of destruction itself, while the commander replacement effect only cares for the destination, but not for the action itself. Arguably, that seems a bit weird in the context of their respective definitions (of destroy and exile), but it does fit within our understanding that, for example, a doom blade does still destroy something when a Rest in Peace is in play, although it exiles it.
Basically, the action is itself is always performed even if its doing something entirely different. This disconnection of action and result seems kind of weird, but I guess it plays well (as in the Doom Blade example). If the Commander-Replacement Effect would say something like "If a Commander would be exiled, ..." it would work as I thought. But it doesn't, so I guess Tabak knows what he's saying
As funny as it may be, the confusion here is most likely that the action of "exiling" something and the "exile" zone share the same root, whereas something being sacrificed or destroyed isn't called "graveyarding" something.
But yes, effects that check for cards being "put into a graveyard" care what zone the card is put in, whereas effects that check for cards being "destroyed" or "sacrificed" care only that the action of destroying or sacrificing it was performed, not what zone the card ended up being in. Curse of the Swine cares only that the effect performed the action of exiling on the cards in question, not what zone those cards ended up going to.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
the release notes for Theros say:
"In a Commander game, if a commander is put into the command zone instead of being exiled by Curse of the Swine, its controller will still get a Boar token."
Why does that work? Or rather: How is this different from, for example, Fracturing Gust trying to destroy an artifact that regenerates? I wouldn't gain any life there -- in both cases (Curse and Gust), a replacement effect stops the event that is thereafter mentioned/asked for from happening.
I thought maybe the answer would be in some weird "to exile" definition that might also work when the card moves to the command zone, but that's not it.
(EDIT: Also looked if the commander replacement effect would say something weird like, "exile it, but put it..." or something. But that's not how it works, either)
Any ideas?
It works because the creature's controller getting a Boar token is not contingent on the creature being exiled, and putting a commander into the command zone doesn't counter Curse of the Swine, so it does everything it can when it resolves.An artifact that regenerates after Fracturing Gust tries to destroy it wasn't actually destroyed (regeneration replaces the destruction with "remove all damage from it, remove it from combat if it's a creature, and tap it"), so Fracturing Gust's controller wouldn't gain any life.Similarly, putting a commander into the command zone instead of into a graveyard or into exile is a replacement effect. Curse of the Swine's effect basically becomes "Put the creature into the command zone, then its controller gets a token".Why isn't it? It specifically says "For each creature exiled this way," and from 406.2 "An exiled card is a card that’s been put into the exile zone."
Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect, and the commander command-zone replacement effect replaces being exiled. Given that the templating appears to be identical, why would the rulings be different?
The rules text of Curse of the Swine begs to differ:
Exile X target creatures. For each creature exiled this way, its controller puts a 2/2 green Boar creature token onto the battlefield.
Incorrect, as the original person pointed out by quoting the FAQ. "In a Commander game, if a commander is put into the command zone instead of being exiled by Curse of the Swine, its controller will still get a Boar token."
The reason this works is similar to the difference between "for each one destroyed" and "for each one put into the graveyard this way", with "for each one exiled" being aligned with the former. If Rest in Peace is out, and you cast Fracturing Gust, you'll still gain life, because all the cards are still destroyed, they just get sent to a different place than normal when they are. Contrast with Terastodon, which explicitly states that the permanents have to be placed in the graveyard for it's ability to care. Similarly, like Fracturing Gust, Curse of the Swine doesn't care where the cards end up, as long as they perform the action of being exiled, so as long as the commander is exiled (the action), it doesn't care if he ends up in the exile zone itself.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
@zer0faults: That's an entire horse entirely. Scion doesn't care where the card is going at all. You could compare that with something as simple as a Sword to Plowshares, which obviously still gives life if the commander goes back to the Command Zone -- it doesn't refer the action or the zone at all! (instead just refers to "that card"/"creature")
Basically, I agree with SyntheticDreamer that this is a mistake. But it is coming from the Rules Manager, after all.
You still exile it, just the commander replacement effect changes the normal exile instruction to move it to the command zone. It is the same way things count as being discards when rest in peace you did a specific action, just because that it was changed to something else.
The only reason regen didn't work in that case is because regen says the creature isn't being destroyed, while the commander effect doesn't say don't exile it.
701.6a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner’s graveyard.
701.9a To exile an object, move it to the exile zone from wherever it is. See rule 406, “Exile.”
Alright, interesting, let's work with that.
614.8. Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect. The word “instead” doesn’t appear on the card but is implicit in the definition of regeneration. “Regenerate [permanent]” means “The next time [permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.”
903.12. If a commander would be put into the exile zone from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead.
So you are saying: Regeneration is replacing the event of destruction itself, while the commander replacement effect only cares for the destination, but not for the action itself. Arguably, that seems a bit weird in the context of their respective definitions (of destroy and exile), but it does fit within our understanding that, for example, a doom blade does still destroy something when a Rest in Peace is in play, although it exiles it.
Basically, the action is itself is always performed even if its doing something entirely different. This disconnection of action and result seems kind of weird, but I guess it plays well (as in the Doom Blade example). If the Commander-Replacement Effect would say something like "If a Commander would be exiled, ..." it would work as I thought. But it doesn't, so I guess Tabak knows what he's saying
But yes, effects that check for cards being "put into a graveyard" care what zone the card is put in, whereas effects that check for cards being "destroyed" or "sacrificed" care only that the action of destroying or sacrificing it was performed, not what zone the card ended up being in. Curse of the Swine cares only that the effect performed the action of exiling on the cards in question, not what zone those cards ended up going to.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall