These vary in strength depending on starting loyalty(nissa) and the efficiency/impact of there abilities, but most have seen fringe play at least. A few of them were too underpowered or were in the wrong meta to see much play.
Every single one save Ashiok has seen wide spread play 3 mana walkers that can generate value apear to be very good. The biggest disadvantage to Ashiok is that it's strength relies on your opponents deck instead of your own. I still expect Ashiok to see widespread play but generally in sideboards rather than maindeck.
There have been a few other notable walkers that don't fall into these two catagories who just have superb abilities but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
You're right... but let's be a bit more concise.
Good Planeswalkers can stop threats already on the battlefield and/or affect cards in hand. THAT's IT! Great walkers can do BOTH of those things, but one can suffice. The ultimate ability doesn't apply in this case though.
Three mana planes walkers are in position to be good as long as their loyalty abilities are focused and can be made useful. This walker does things that control likes to do.
+2 loyalty on this guy is really important and seems to be getting less recognition than it should be getting. Against midrange this card is going to be a challenge to deal with and/or you may have to over-extend towards the walker to keep afloat.
Milling three cards is already something control likes to do (win con).
The second ability has incredible synergy with the first ability (again, this spells a powerful 3 mana walker).
The final is obviously fine.
So what exactly is the problem here? Of course you don't want to be caught with this guy against aggro, they very well ignore it and just kill you.
But it appears to be VERY strong tech against Midrange, control, mirror.
His odds of hitting a creature are about 1/3 in a usual deck?
Decks typically contain from 10 up to 30 creatures. Some quick calculations on probabilities give:
Chance of hitting at least 1 creature against:
10-creature deck: ~42%
20-creature deck: ~70%
30-creature deck: ~88%
So, pretty nice odds there, except against the 10-creature deck. Then again, against that deck Ashiok's chance of surviving multiple turns are typically much higher.
There's no reason this card wont see a ton of play. It might be a card which comes in from the sideboard at the rate of 3-4 copies for game two.
As has been said by many already, most decks will be running a healthy portion of creatures. Snapcaster Mage is gone, no more being super reliant on extra spells from the graveyard. Restoration Angel is gone. Those decks with few creatures are going to (most-likely) be adding more. Even if they don't, having a Drownyard effect with loyalty tick +2 is going to be fine, the final is great versus that match-up.
This card will be very strong against midrange. Often it will take control of the entire game if you cast it on the play, ex: Mill a strong creature, they aren't quite able to get rid of it. Steal the creature, attack them while up ticking and find another, game.
It will have trouble against some aggro builds on the draw specifically but there doesn't seem to be as much early haste in this new set and there are many ways to protect this in B/U.
Some appear to be trying to speak from a position of authority on this matter, when all of us (including me) are throwing out speculation.
I will say that from hundreds of games in play test with a group of very strong players this card is very tough.
But I do know the card will pass the bend test, therefore it is tough enough.
You don't see the connection between play-testing and finding out if a card is tough to deal with?
If you're unsure about a card's usefulness you can test it against good decks and see if it gives them trouble, if it does than it very well will see play as very few cards in standard see play and any useful ones tend to get found out at some point, Planeswalkers sooner rather than later.
I must admit that after reading this, my interest in Ashiok actually increased...
Just a quick observation...
"Against control, it plays like a really, really bad Jace, Memory Adept except for the one day you hit one of their Aetherlings."
Against control...
1) It plays like a cheaper Jace.
2) It would play in conjunction with Jace.
3) If you hit control's Aetherling, doesn't that shift the odds more in your favor because you've hit one of their few wincons?
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"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
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What surprised me the most about that article is the complete disregard for a potential UB control strategy. We're not talking about just Ashiok. There is also:
- Thoughtseize
- Hero's Downfall
- Temple of Deceit (UB scryland)
- Read the Bones
I'd personally be amazed if a UB control deck doesn't pop-up at the beginning of the Standard season, especially since it should, by virtue of it's hand disruption, tear apart other control strategies.
While we are talking about hand disruption, I think it's those cards that help Ashiok in such a deck be all that he can be. You need to resolve the walker but don't know if they have counters or Detention Sphere? Just play Thoughtseize or Duress and see if the coast is clear.
Something similar applies to creatures since you can for a single black mana and two life rid yourself of one of their premier early drops that would have made playing Ashiok early a serious liability.
Bottom line is if UB control is a deck, and there is no doubt in my mind that it is, then Ashiok is a card, if not THE card.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
[QUOTE=thetrueshyguy;/comments/12457487]Just a quick observation...
"Against control, it plays like a really, really bad Jace, Memory Adept except for the one day you hit one of their Aetherlings."
Against control...
1) It plays like a cheaper Jace.
2) It would play in conjunction with Jace.
3) If you hit control's Aetherling, doesn't that shift the odds more in your favor because you've hit one of their few wincons?[/
I don't think most of you need shaheen to tell you this card is bad you can you know, read the card. If there was someone's opinion I would respect on plainswalkers it would be his considering he has played plainswalker control since they have been printed.
What surprised me the most about that article is the complete disregard for a potential UB control strategy. We're not talking about just Ashiok. There is also:
- Thoughtseize
- Hero's Downfall
- Temple of Deceit (UB scryland)
- Read the Bones
I'd personally be amazed if a UB control deck doesn't pop-up at the beginning of the Standard season, especially since it should, by virtue of it's hand disruption, tear apart other control strategies.
While we are talking about hand disruption, I think it's those cards that help Ashiok in such a deck be all that he can be. You need to resolve the walker but don't know if they have counters or Detention Sphere? Just play Thoughtseize or Duress and see if the coast is clear.
Something similar applies to creatures since you can for a single black mana and two life rid yourself of one of their premier early drops that would have made playing Ashiok early a serious liability.
Bottom line is if UB control is a deck, and there is no doubt in my mind that it is, then Ashiok is a card, if not THE card.
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Has anyone considered Ashiok in a counter-spell deck, He has seriously shown clear potential in testing.
Ashiok's main advantages that I have seen are in such a deck heavy in counter spells, attributing to the mill effect. Ashiok is everything Nephalia Drownyard was, but better.
Ashiok doesn't need to defend itself because, as others have stated, he shouldn't be played on a developed board state obviously. So I began to ask myself how to drop Ashiok without being Esper? The answer was clear, dont allow a developed board state, which lead me to counter spells.
In the proper UB Build, Ashiok is able to shine in the following ways:
1) Ashiok doesn't just mill - he exiles therefore excels against Scavenging Ooze and Reanimator Decks versus cards that mill.
2) Ashiok mills to exile whereas Nephalia DY mills to GY - again exile vs gy, but FREE
3)Ashiok IS a win-con - He is a Win-Con because he has the ability to steal Win-Cons
4) Ashiok doesn't need to defend himself like other PW - this is because he should be ran in a Counter Spell Deck
5) Ashiok pairs well with Jace AOT against aggro, and with Jace MA vs control
6) Counter Magic and Removal are proper combinations for Ashiok, both of which can be found in UB. Devour Flesh is 100% better then and type of targeted removal - why? because their life total doesn't matter, because he belongs in a Counter/Mill deck
7) Scry will be a thing, as others have stated - Ashiok or the idea of him being played can greatly influence a players Scry choices. Not to mention, the highest scry goes is to 3, which i see as quite convenient. Also Opponents Scrying + Ashiok + Mind Grind = Very interesting plays.
These are just some ideas that I have found Ashiok to be useful in. I am currently testing a deck with these ideas and it has been doing very well. When I have an Official Build that I feel is worthy of T2 Standard Play, I will post it.
As of this point, I have dubbed it UB Counter Mill.
Black does have decent cards, just not for the midrange/control build. BW midrange can certainly be a thing.
The endgame of the argument seems suspect, at least if we are talking about win conditions.
Either control deck can pack Jace and/or AEtherling. The only thing white has and black hasn't is Elspeth, but I would rather have Ashiok in the control matchup anyway, on the basis that he costs half as much to cast, which makes him easier to protect with counters, and that if you do get to activate his ultimate the control opponent might as well scoop.
As for the other cards, it's true that they represent some of the more powerful control elements but they aren't the only ones available in the format.
Opportunity - Weaker then Revelation, since it doesn't scale and there is no life gain involved (which is important), but it is still a very damn good spell to have, as far as drawing cards goes. At six it's very cost effective and quite good.
Far/Away - It's not exactly Supreme Verdict, but it does have the advantage that it can be cast at instant speed, used as a single removal spell in a pinch and it kind of hoses indestructible, and even hexprof in some corner cases. It was even played over Supreme Verdict in some Esper lists at some point last summer. Granted it might not be enough, but Ratchet Bomb can compensate for those shortcomings should the situation present itself.
Hero's Downfall - Most of the time it will target all the things that Detention Sphere targets (which are mostly creatures and planeswalkers), but it will do so at instant speed and, arguably, at a less cost intensive colour cost.
Devour Flesh - Along with stuff like Doom Blade, Far/Away, Warped Physique and a few others, should be able to deal with most creature based threats on a 1-for-1 basis.
For non-creature threats you have counters and hand disruption spells like Thoughtseize and/or Duress.
I don't exactly have a decklist, as such, but the cards I've mentioned should be a definite inclusion in a UB control deck. It feels like a good deck and I will give it a go.
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Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Not having a sweeper will hurt U/B control, but not render it unplayable. It still has everything else a control deck could ask for.
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These cards aren't just stronger win conditions either, they're in many cases harder to answer and offer and immediate - and unconditional - board advantage. In fact they're both helping you stabilize and acting like a strong win condition.
That Ashiok works as a win condition against a goldfishing opponent, or when you're perfectly able to protect him, is also completely irrelevant. Almost any card will win the game for you under such circumstances, and frequently much faster than Ashiok.
Good cards can protect Ashiok, granted. That doesn't mean Ashiok is a good card however.
I'm certainly not trying to discourage anyone from trying to make UB work in the new meta. Go for it!
I'm just saying that to me black looks significantly weaker than white for the post-rotation control decks, if forced to choose between the two.
Luckily it should still be easy enough to splash for most of the reasons to run black in an Esper build.
I completely agree with you in regards to being a spell, subject to removal, not tapping for mana, sorcery speed etc.
But I wont agree not working in multiples, with new PW rules, you can most certainly +2 / -x / Ult then drop another.
IMHO 3CMC for Pseudo 5 Lifegain AND exile top 3 is very formidable.
And from as much as I can read from you quoting me, you have failed to realize the fact that he belongs in a Counter Spell shell, therefore board impact is irrelevant, as long as you can drop him and he sticks - 3CMC for 3 in exile is card advantage IMHO.
Win- Cons aside - in a counter-spell deck focused on milling your opponent, Ashiok is king with any Jace.
The format is obviously slowed to the point of Turn 3+ board states. It just so happens, control is primed for this type of format. Please do not take offense, but the new current standard (Theros Only) is beginning to show signs that people need to reconsider the Aggro based Bias towards a cards quality.
In summary, I say again- 3CMC for 3 Exile is Card Advantage. Anything thereafter makes for a "good" card.
I'm just saying that to me black looks significantly weaker than white for the post-rotation control decks, if forced to choose between the two.
Luckily it should still be easy enough to splash for most of the reasons to run black in an Esper build.
Choice, I believe, largely depends on the expected speed of the format. If a format is geared more towards midrange/control UB is the sounder choice. If the format happens to be rife with fast aggro decks packing some amount of burn UW becomes better. Kind of like this, though this is just a rough estimate:
UB Control > UW Control > fast aggro > UB control
Of course, format speed is not something that is a given so while one type of control might be the correct choice at one time it doesn't mean that it will be the correct choice all the time.
I don't really think that splashing a third colour in a control deck will be all that easy. While scrying is nice, those kinds of decks would take checklands any day of the week.
Even if those kinds of mana bases were stable, at this point Esper is probably the go to tri-colour mana base since it has two scrylands printed in this set, one of which taps for blue which is incredibly important.
However, in the face of a new format, it pays for a control deck to minimize it's liabilities. Sticking to a two colour list helps you not get colour screwed and take significantly less damage from your mana sources.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Choice, I believe, largely depends on the expected speed of the format. If a format is geared more towards midrange/control UB is the sounder choice. If the format happens to be rife with fast aggro decks packing some amount of burn UW becomes better. Kind of like this, though this is just a rough estimate:
UB Control > UW Control > fast aggro > UB control
Of course, format speed is not something that is a given so while one type of control might be the correct choice at one time it doesn't mean that it will be the correct choice all the time.
I don't really think that splashing a third colour in a control deck will be all that easy. While scrying is nice, those kinds of decks would take checklands any day of the week.
Even if those kinds of mana bases were stable, at this point Esper is probably the go to tri-colour mana base since it has two scrylands printed in this set, one of which taps for blue which is incredibly important.
However, in the face of a new format, it pays for a control deck to minimize it's liabilities. Sticking to a two colour list helps you not get colour screwed and take significantly less damage from your mana sources.
I completely agree Drek!
The format is defined by the cards played, the meta defines where the players want to go. Its this reason that Rogue decks "sometimes" turn into staples. Everything is in flux when a new set is released and an entire block is sent to the wayside for Standard.
[QUOTE=thetrueshyguy;/comments/12457487]Just a quick observation...
"Against control, it plays like a really, really bad Jace, Memory Adept except for the one day you hit one of their Aetherlings."
Against control...
1) It plays like a cheaper Jace.
2) It would play in conjunction with Jace.
3) If you hit control's Aetherling, doesn't that shift the odds more in your favor because you've hit one of their few wincons?[/
I don't think most of you need shaheen to tell you this card is bad you can you know, read the card. If there was someone's opinion I would respect on plainswalkers it would be his considering he has played plainswalker control since they have been printed.
And there are other pros and good players singing it's usefulness. If one SCG guy says it's absolutely amazing, and one says it's a step below Tibalt, then guess what? They're both right, and they're both wrong. Just reading a card doesn't always tell you it's good or bad. There are so many other factors involved and they have been beaten to death. Many for, many against and of those, most are flawed, illogical, or full of holes. There are only a few solid analysis of the card (both for and against) through out the pages and pages of posts. And I'm sorry to say, but the brevity of Shaheen's analysis doesn't add to the discussion of why he's "bad" but instead detracts from it.
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An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
In modern instead of spitting out vanilla tokens each turn like other walkers, he can spit out Tarmogoyfs and dark confidants and deathrite shamans and scavenging oozes every other turn. A t1 drs, t2 Ashiok sounds like something that needs to be answered fast, and 5 loyalty with a +2 doesn't go down easy. Can BUG be a thing?
You're right... but let's be a bit more concise.
Good Planeswalkers can stop threats already on the battlefield and/or affect cards in hand. THAT's IT! Great walkers can do BOTH of those things, but one can suffice. The ultimate ability doesn't apply in this case though.
So... is Ashiok Good?
+2 loyalty on this guy is really important and seems to be getting less recognition than it should be getting. Against midrange this card is going to be a challenge to deal with and/or you may have to over-extend towards the walker to keep afloat.
Milling three cards is already something control likes to do (win con).
The second ability has incredible synergy with the first ability (again, this spells a powerful 3 mana walker).
The final is obviously fine.
So what exactly is the problem here? Of course you don't want to be caught with this guy against aggro, they very well ignore it and just kill you.
But it appears to be VERY strong tech against Midrange, control, mirror.
Decks typically contain from 10 up to 30 creatures. Some quick calculations on probabilities give:
Chance of hitting at least 1 creature against:
10-creature deck: ~42%
20-creature deck: ~70%
30-creature deck: ~88%
So, pretty nice odds there, except against the 10-creature deck. Then again, against that deck Ashiok's chance of surviving multiple turns are typically much higher.
Sigh... magic...
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As has been said by many already, most decks will be running a healthy portion of creatures. Snapcaster Mage is gone, no more being super reliant on extra spells from the graveyard. Restoration Angel is gone. Those decks with few creatures are going to (most-likely) be adding more. Even if they don't, having a Drownyard effect with loyalty tick +2 is going to be fine, the final is great versus that match-up.
This card will be very strong against midrange. Often it will take control of the entire game if you cast it on the play, ex: Mill a strong creature, they aren't quite able to get rid of it. Steal the creature, attack them while up ticking and find another, game.
It will have trouble against some aggro builds on the draw specifically but there doesn't seem to be as much early haste in this new set and there are many ways to protect this in B/U.
Some appear to be trying to speak from a position of authority on this matter, when all of us (including me) are throwing out speculation.
I will say that from hundreds of games in play test with a group of very strong players this card is very tough.
I don't see the connection.
But I do know the card will pass the bend test, therefore it is tough enough.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
You don't see the connection between play-testing and finding out if a card is tough to deal with?
If you're unsure about a card's usefulness you can test it against good decks and see if it gives them trouble, if it does than it very well will see play as very few cards in standard see play and any useful ones tend to get found out at some point, Planeswalkers sooner rather than later.
I must admit that after reading this, my interest in Ashiok actually increased...
Just a quick observation...
"Against control, it plays like a really, really bad Jace, Memory Adept except for the one day you hit one of their Aetherlings."
Against control...
1) It plays like a cheaper Jace.
2) It would play in conjunction with Jace.
3) If you hit control's Aetherling, doesn't that shift the odds more in your favor because you've hit one of their few wincons?
An actor without a director is but a mannequin.
While a director without a writer is unemployed.
But ultimately a writer without words is dead.
~R. D. Newman
"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
Never before has a boy wanted more...zombie slaying.
GP Vegas: It was once in a lifetime!
On Vault of the Archangel
Does anyone know LSV? He's Dimir, and I bet he has opinions about it.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
TL;DR - Ashiok, Dimir version of Tibalt
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
- Thoughtseize
- Hero's Downfall
- Temple of Deceit (UB scryland)
- Read the Bones
I'd personally be amazed if a UB control deck doesn't pop-up at the beginning of the Standard season, especially since it should, by virtue of it's hand disruption, tear apart other control strategies.
While we are talking about hand disruption, I think it's those cards that help Ashiok in such a deck be all that he can be. You need to resolve the walker but don't know if they have counters or Detention Sphere? Just play Thoughtseize or Duress and see if the coast is clear.
Something similar applies to creatures since you can for a single black mana and two life rid yourself of one of their premier early drops that would have made playing Ashiok early a serious liability.
Bottom line is if UB control is a deck, and there is no doubt in my mind that it is, then Ashiok is a card, if not THE card.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
"Against control, it plays like a really, really bad Jace, Memory Adept except for the one day you hit one of their Aetherlings."
Against control...
1) It plays like a cheaper Jace.
2) It would play in conjunction with Jace.
3) If you hit control's Aetherling, doesn't that shift the odds more in your favor because you've hit one of their few wincons?[/
I don't think most of you need shaheen to tell you this card is bad you can you know, read the card. If there was someone's opinion I would respect on plainswalkers it would be his considering he has played plainswalker control since they have been printed.
How one play control w/o sweepers ? Mutilate and Curse of Death's Hold is gone.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Ratchet Bomb and Far/Away are still cards.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Ashiok's main advantages that I have seen are in such a deck heavy in counter spells, attributing to the mill effect. Ashiok is everything Nephalia Drownyard was, but better.
Ashiok doesn't need to defend itself because, as others have stated, he shouldn't be played on a developed board state obviously. So I began to ask myself how to drop Ashiok without being Esper? The answer was clear, dont allow a developed board state, which lead me to counter spells.
In the proper UB Build, Ashiok is able to shine in the following ways:
1) Ashiok doesn't just mill - he exiles therefore excels against Scavenging Ooze and Reanimator Decks versus cards that mill.
2) Ashiok mills to exile whereas Nephalia DY mills to GY - again exile vs gy, but FREE
3)Ashiok IS a win-con - He is a Win-Con because he has the ability to steal Win-Cons
4) Ashiok doesn't need to defend himself like other PW - this is because he should be ran in a Counter Spell Deck
5) Ashiok pairs well with Jace AOT against aggro, and with Jace MA vs control
6) Counter Magic and Removal are proper combinations for Ashiok, both of which can be found in UB. Devour Flesh is 100% better then and type of targeted removal - why? because their life total doesn't matter, because he belongs in a Counter/Mill deck
7) Scry will be a thing, as others have stated - Ashiok or the idea of him being played can greatly influence a players Scry choices. Not to mention, the highest scry goes is to 3, which i see as quite convenient. Also Opponents Scrying + Ashiok + Mind Grind = Very interesting plays.
These are just some ideas that I have found Ashiok to be useful in. I am currently testing a deck with these ideas and it has been doing very well. When I have an Official Build that I feel is worthy of T2 Standard Play, I will post it.
As of this point, I have dubbed it UB Counter Mill.
The endgame of the argument seems suspect, at least if we are talking about win conditions.
Either control deck can pack Jace and/or AEtherling. The only thing white has and black hasn't is Elspeth, but I would rather have Ashiok in the control matchup anyway, on the basis that he costs half as much to cast, which makes him easier to protect with counters, and that if you do get to activate his ultimate the control opponent might as well scoop.
As for the other cards, it's true that they represent some of the more powerful control elements but they aren't the only ones available in the format.
Opportunity - Weaker then Revelation, since it doesn't scale and there is no life gain involved (which is important), but it is still a very damn good spell to have, as far as drawing cards goes. At six it's very cost effective and quite good.
Far/Away - It's not exactly Supreme Verdict, but it does have the advantage that it can be cast at instant speed, used as a single removal spell in a pinch and it kind of hoses indestructible, and even hexprof in some corner cases. It was even played over Supreme Verdict in some Esper lists at some point last summer. Granted it might not be enough, but Ratchet Bomb can compensate for those shortcomings should the situation present itself.
Hero's Downfall - Most of the time it will target all the things that Detention Sphere targets (which are mostly creatures and planeswalkers), but it will do so at instant speed and, arguably, at a less cost intensive colour cost.
Devour Flesh - Along with stuff like Doom Blade, Far/Away, Warped Physique and a few others, should be able to deal with most creature based threats on a 1-for-1 basis.
For non-creature threats you have counters and hand disruption spells like Thoughtseize and/or Duress.
I don't exactly have a decklist, as such, but the cards I've mentioned should be a definite inclusion in a UB control deck. It feels like a good deck and I will give it a go.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
And truly over what, this crappy card?
I will eat my hat if this card will ever see top8 mainboard play in a GP or PT.
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URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.)
BMaralen of the MornsongB
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
Standard:
UMono U DevotionU
Casual:
GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
I completely agree with you in regards to being a spell, subject to removal, not tapping for mana, sorcery speed etc.
But I wont agree not working in multiples, with new PW rules, you can most certainly +2 / -x / Ult then drop another.
IMHO 3CMC for Pseudo 5 Lifegain AND exile top 3 is very formidable.
And from as much as I can read from you quoting me, you have failed to realize the fact that he belongs in a Counter Spell shell, therefore board impact is irrelevant, as long as you can drop him and he sticks - 3CMC for 3 in exile is card advantage IMHO.
Win- Cons aside - in a counter-spell deck focused on milling your opponent, Ashiok is king with any Jace.
The format is obviously slowed to the point of Turn 3+ board states. It just so happens, control is primed for this type of format. Please do not take offense, but the new current standard (Theros Only) is beginning to show signs that people need to reconsider the Aggro based Bias towards a cards quality.
In summary, I say again- 3CMC for 3 Exile is Card Advantage. Anything thereafter makes for a "good" card.
Choice, I believe, largely depends on the expected speed of the format. If a format is geared more towards midrange/control UB is the sounder choice. If the format happens to be rife with fast aggro decks packing some amount of burn UW becomes better. Kind of like this, though this is just a rough estimate:
UB Control > UW Control > fast aggro > UB control
Of course, format speed is not something that is a given so while one type of control might be the correct choice at one time it doesn't mean that it will be the correct choice all the time.
I don't really think that splashing a third colour in a control deck will be all that easy. While scrying is nice, those kinds of decks would take checklands any day of the week.
Even if those kinds of mana bases were stable, at this point Esper is probably the go to tri-colour mana base since it has two scrylands printed in this set, one of which taps for blue which is incredibly important.
However, in the face of a new format, it pays for a control deck to minimize it's liabilities. Sticking to a two colour list helps you not get colour screwed and take significantly less damage from your mana sources.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I completely agree Drek!
The format is defined by the cards played, the meta defines where the players want to go. Its this reason that Rogue decks "sometimes" turn into staples. Everything is in flux when a new set is released and an entire block is sent to the wayside for Standard.
And there are other pros and good players singing it's usefulness. If one SCG guy says it's absolutely amazing, and one says it's a step below Tibalt, then guess what? They're both right, and they're both wrong. Just reading a card doesn't always tell you it's good or bad. There are so many other factors involved and they have been beaten to death. Many for, many against and of those, most are flawed, illogical, or full of holes. There are only a few solid analysis of the card (both for and against) through out the pages and pages of posts. And I'm sorry to say, but the brevity of Shaheen's analysis doesn't add to the discussion of why he's "bad" but instead detracts from it.
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"7,015 creatures in existence. They all die to removal."
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