To everyone that said oh just walk into a walmart and get it at msrp its just not that easy. For the last 5 days me and 3 employees stop at a total of 6 target and walmarts in different areas on our way to work and have never once seen a mind seize deck. Most of the times nothing is there but if there is its usually evasive or power hungry and that's it. That's a good reason to preorder it or pay more then msrp because it just can't be found. Besides that I haven't heard of any second wave info. I know its coming just not sure when. I'm hoping in a few weeks in time for black friday
If you believe the previous posters; it seems like the second wave of product will come to January.
Rather long time to wait but consider that if you wont buy from stores/people who mark-up drastically over MSRP the trend might eventually drain slightly from the game. Then you can enjoy the new products right away at around MSRP without having to worry to beat speculation sharks or fellow MtG players who could neither get the product for around MSRP.
If you believe the previous posters; it seems like the second wave of product will come to January.
Is there any reason to assume this second wave won't disappear as quickly as the first wave? It's all well and good that there's another print run, but unless the numbers on that print run are significantly higher it's still not going to help people in my area. I got lucky and snagged one of each at a Shopko on Sat morning, but I know at least ten other people who have thus far been unable to find a Mind Seize. It's going to take a pretty large increase in product availability over the first run just to satisfy people in my social circle alone. The four or so local gaming stores and a dozen or so big boxes so far haven't come close to providing enough product to meet demand and it will take a second wave 10x the size of the first to meet it.
YMMV on that of course. I'm only speaking of local supply/demand.
My Walmart just got it's shipment the other night; when I went to pick mine up last night, the only deck missing was Mind Seize (naturally), with one or two of each other deck. But it looked to me like it had been restocked in between when I saw them that afternoon and when I picked mine up that night, so who knows how many cases they got; they might stay in stock for much of the near future.
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Someday, I will own all of the dragons. All of them. 43/111, approximately 39% complete. Over a third done.
(calling it now; there will be a cycle of Legendary dual lands with Basic Land types in Theros block)
... AAAAAAAAND I was wrong
Is there any reason to assume this second wave won't disappear as quickly as the first wave? It's all well and good that there's another print run, but unless the numbers on that print run are significantly higher it's still not going to help people in my area. I got lucky and snagged one of each at a Shopko on Sat morning, but I know at least ten other people who have thus far been unable to find a Mind Seize. It's going to take a pretty large increase in product availability over the first run just to satisfy people in my social circle alone. The four or so local gaming stores and a dozen or so big boxes so far haven't come close to providing enough product to meet demand and it will take a second wave 10x the size of the first to meet it.
YMMV on that of course. I'm only speaking of local supply/demand.
The first installment of product in the big box stores always moves. Last time, you could find all of the decks two-three months out. I think I bought my last decks three months after release in a Wal-Mart. People stop looking after the first few weeks. So, the second printing will probably be enough. These are commander decks after all, you should only need 1 of each. Even the legacy decks using TNN don't use 4.
For more reprints, either demand for the entire set of five has to push ordering more sets, or else shops will have to mark up the decks that do sell to make up for the fact that they can't order just the specific hot sellers (*cough*Mind Seize*cough*) and will have to make up any difference from unsold or held less popular decks. At least, that's how I expect it would work with speciality shops - the big box stores probably will only bother re-ordering if they move everything.
Based on the trends in both mark-up and particular absences in stores, I wouldn't count on the second wave to lower the cost of the "standout" decks that are already commanding higher prices unless you've worked out a pre-order/reserve deal with your FLGS. It will help for 4/5 decks which you will likely be able to freely get at big box stores, but scalpers will be all over the next wave to snipe and flip Mind Seize for profit. The other four decks will linger on shelves and because of the way they are printed and distributed, further waves will be either limited in number or reduced.
Unless you pre-ordered, or are quick on the draw/get lucky, it might not be possible to avoid paying a premium on Mind Seize from here on out.
I don't know why Wizards doesn't at least attempt to balance out the prices of the decks. You can't just print five similar decks then throw a $30 legacy card into one of them randomly and expect there to be no issues.
Still nothing in North Chicagoland area. 3 targets and a Walmart. The Targets did not have the product labeled on the shelf but the WM did. However this place is super busy every hour it's open. Employees have not been helpful at all! I can wait I think but at some point will just get singles.
I was able to get one complete set of 5 at my LGS, for a slight discount off MSRP. I had another set of five on order from an internet vendor, for MSRP with free shipping, and no sales tax. They were holding my order until the second wave. After living with the decks for a week, I've decided I don't need a second set, and have cancelled my other order. There's just not anything in these that stands out and makes me want multiple copies. I might buy a couple copies of several of the commanders later on after the furor has died down, but that's it. It's a good product, but it's just not all *that* compelling.
I don't know why Wizards doesn't at least attempt to balance out the prices of the decks. You can't just print five similar decks then throw a $30 legacy card into one of them randomly and expect there to be no issues.
They pretty much did that with the last decks and they all sold just fine. Even the "worst" one never stayed on shelves all that long.
but scalpers will be all over the next wave to snipe and flip Mind Seize for profit.
It's always a matter of patience and providing a clear image of a very elastic market in terms to lower the price by "voting with your money" and in this case not break and pay the premium price but wait until you get a chance to get the product at a reasonable price.
If these "scalpers" cannot unload their investment then they have to price adjust or will be sitting in with the product, so it's all a matter of which party is the most patient.
The second wave will aid some to get their decks, whether all will be satisfied is an entirely different story. I do hope Wizards will read some of this (not necessary from this forum) and enable single deck-orders.
TBH I'm kinda astonished that the demand for Grixis is this high as I'd rather just expect that people wanted it for Legacy (and thus those who'd wish to scalp those people). But from an EDH-player's point of view, is Grixis' decklist really that much more appealing than any of the others?
Or is it really the appeal of the financial value that draws people?
But from an EDH-player's point of view, is Grixis' decklist really that much more appealing than any of the others?
Or is it really the appeal of the financial value that draws people?
I think it's just that it's worth money. It doesn't make sense, really... people buy the product because they feel it's worth more which in turn makes it worth more. All the decks look good to me so, yeah, I think a lot of it is perceived "value" from the product and hype.
But from an EDH-player's point of view, is Grixis' decklist really that much more appealing than any of the others?
Or is it really the appeal of the financial value that draws people?
It's the $Value$ of the deck. The deck itself isn't really that interesting outside of a few cards but it's not as internally cohesive as it could have been. I could be wrong, but from what anecdotal evidence have it's the worst of the 5.
They pretty much did that with the last decks and they all sold just fine. Even the "worst" one never stayed on shelves all that long.
Yes, but the last time they had more card that were made to attact casual players attention in each deck, The rest of the new cards feel allot more bland to me this time, also before the last set only 1 of the color combinations had more then 1 general option which meant that people who wanted to play a specific combination needed that deck to have better general options.
This time the new generals are not as good, and it is not adding much to playability options. For Esper my prefered general options are not in the new ones, and the repeat general is not even in my top for the color, as if I want to play an artifact based deck, I want red for Welder, Trash for Treasure, Slobad, etc. when I went to build an artifact based EDH deck I ended up with Grixis, not Esper because of the artifact support from red back in the day.
The rest of the new cards feel allot more bland to me this time, also before the last set only 1 of the color combinations had more then 1 general option which meant that people who wanted to play a specific combination needed that deck to have better general options.
This might be partially why you said the first thing.
This time the new generals are not as good, and it is not adding much to playability options.
Fact or opinion? These generals are competing against some really well established cards within well established archetypes. Of course it's going to seem like they don't offer anything new when we are all looking at how they fit in our current decks built with the old Generals in mind. To say that any of the 10 new Generals are not good just doesn't seem accurate. To say they aren't good in the decks we already have might be accurate though..
For Esper my prefered general options are not in the new ones, and the repeat general is not even in my top for the color, as if I want to play an artifact based deck, I want red for Welder, Trash for Treasure, Slobad, etc. when I went to build an artifact based EDH deck I ended up with Grixis, not Esper because of the artifact support from red back in the day.
Okay. But, I bet people who like Esper can give you their rationale for White over Red. Oloro is clearly a pillowfort general and Sydri is obviously a "Doomsday Machine" kind of general - she lets the artifact heavy deck assemble the pieces to do it's thing and provides another win condition with the pieces that are already in the deck.
The Jund Generals are both clear signals too. We don't really have a Stax general outside of Adun Oakenshield and Jund Sac/Tokens has nothing worth playing even though it's a popular deck. Jund got generals that support already existing strategies.
Grixis's Generals are the same. Extract Control and Wheel Combo decks are played but people just use whatever good General they feel fits best. None of them directly helped these decks and now we have them.
Naya is trash in most cases because the generals all tell you to build around them or they are so terrible you don't want to mess with them... or they are so rare and expensive that you can't afford it. So, we get a political variant of a Token Swarm General and then we get the Ramp Combo General. Rith just died a painful death. Mayael should die. Uril got replaced.
Bant is UGx and should be the strongest shard based on that. But, with the old Bant Generals it's really hard to find a card that supports some of the most popular strategies - blink and control. Rafiq, Jenara, and whatever other creature they have all push for more combat based decks even though the 99 scream "CONTROL COMBO!" They fixed that.
tl:dr - They just printed 10 generals that do what a lot of people already do in the 99 cards. Our "X" deck has been running a "Y" General because there wasn't an "X" legend. Fixed.
I think it's just that it's worth money. It doesn't make sense, really... people buy the product because they feel it's worth more which in turn makes it worth more. All the decks look good to me so, yeah, I think a lot of it is perceived "value" from the product and hype.
Well, the Grixis deck lets you buy it for $30, crack it open, ebay the True-Name Nemisis for $30, and have 99 other cards for essentially free (at least at the moment). I personally could always use more free Sol Rings, Command Towers, etc.
I don't know why Wizards doesn't at least attempt to balance out the prices of the decks. You can't just print five similar decks then throw a $30 legacy card into one of them randomly and expect there to be no issues.
Wizards doesn't print new cards just to print cards that will be expensive. Sure they may have an idea of what will be valuable on the secondary market, but they print the cards to print cool new cards that people will get excited about. There was no "So TNN will prolly be about $30 so let's just throw that in that deck to make people want it." They printed it because it was cool, and it just happens to be making some splashes in Legacy RIGHT NOW. Wizards respects the secondary market for what it is: secondary. They understand that certain cards will just become valuable, as mandated by the playerbase, not by Wizards.
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EDH
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Scion of the Ur-Dragon:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:dimir::dimir:Grimgrin, Corpse-Born:dimir::dimir:
:symg::symg:Azusa, Lost but Seeking:symg::symg:
It would be SOOO much simpler if WOTC pulled off a Kaijudo when releasing these commander decks.
Do you know what WOTC does with the Kaijudo competitive decks? In a set where there are two competitive decks released with the Kaijudo set, they package all of one kind of deck in one box, and all of one kind of the other deck in the other box. I just don't understand why they have to package one of each in a box, rather than five of one in a box, and having 4 other boxes having 5 of one kind.
It would be SOOO much simpler if WOTC pulled off a Kaijudo when releasing these commander decks.
Do you know what WOTC does with the Kaijudo competitive decks? In a set where there are two competitive decks released with the Kaijudo set, they package all of one kind of deck in one box, and all of one kind of the other deck in the other box. I just don't understand why they have to package one of each in a box, rather than five of one in a box, and having 4 other boxes having 5 of one kind.
That made no sense about the deck packaging, I don't understand what you were trying to illustrate...
"they package all of one kind of deck in one box, and all of one kind of the other deck in the other box."
Is there any reason to assume this second wave won't disappear as quickly as the first wave? It's all well and good that there's another print run, but unless the numbers on that print run are significantly higher it's still not going to help people in my area. I got lucky and snagged one of each at a Shopko on Sat morning, but I know at least ten other people who have thus far been unable to find a Mind Seize. It's going to take a pretty large increase in product availability over the first run just to satisfy people in my social circle alone. The four or so local gaming stores and a dozen or so big boxes so far haven't come close to providing enough product to meet demand and it will take a second wave 10x the size of the first to meet it.
YMMV on that of course. I'm only speaking of local supply/demand.
i don't know how big the print run for the second wave,
but i already pre-order and paid in full for mine.
i know, crazy right, i have to paid in full already for the product i will receive on january.
and actually, it's still not a sure thing,
because even the first wave we all also already paid in full, and confident to get it, but suddenly, the regional distributor said it's limited, then the store refund all of our money.
then after so much of yelling and screaming, finally, the regional distributor said there will be a second wave, and we have to paid in advanced, again.
let's just hope this time it's not limited and refunded, again.
*fingers crossed*
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
That made no sense about the deck packaging, I don't understand what you were trying to illustrate...
"they package all of one kind of deck in one box, and all of one kind of the other deck in the other box."
If you purchased kaijudo competitive deck displays, you would know that there are 2 different kinds of displays, and not just one. In MTG, when you purchase an intro pack display, or a box of commander 2013, you always get an equal amount of all 5 decks in a box. Not with Kaijudo. When you buy the display for deck A, you get only deck A in that display. You have to purchase a separate display to get deck B.
Let me put this easier for you. Each commander precon type needs to have their own separate UPC code.
If you purchased kaijudo competitive deck displays, you would know that there are 2 different kinds of displays, and not just one. In MTG, when you purchase an intro pack display, or a box of commander 2013, you always get an equal amount of all 5 decks in a box. Not with Kaijudo. When you buy the display for deck A, you get only deck A in that display. You have to purchase a separate display to get deck B.
Let me put this easier for you. Each commander precon type needs to have their own separate UPC code.
Maro has talked about this on his tumblr a few times. It has to do with their reluctance to throw a lot of codes at retailers -- it makes things more difficult for ordering and inventory, etc. Keep it Simple. I guess they figured it'd be OK for Kaijudo because it was only 2 decks instead of 5?
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():
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"Right about now I am wondering if Fredy Montero needed a kidney, how many guys in Seattle would line up to oblige?"
-- David Falk, Seattle Soccer Examiner, March 2009
Almost all the cards in Mind Seize will be dirt cheap with people cracking them open for the owl and fish and throwing everything else in their binders. Kinda like what happened to Zedruu's deck and Flusterstorm.
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Yes sir, I take fantasy art and character design commissions, PM me for rates.
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Rather long time to wait but consider that if you wont buy from stores/people who mark-up drastically over MSRP the trend might eventually drain slightly from the game. Then you can enjoy the new products right away at around MSRP without having to worry to beat speculation sharks or fellow MtG players who could neither get the product for around MSRP.
Is there any reason to assume this second wave won't disappear as quickly as the first wave? It's all well and good that there's another print run, but unless the numbers on that print run are significantly higher it's still not going to help people in my area. I got lucky and snagged one of each at a Shopko on Sat morning, but I know at least ten other people who have thus far been unable to find a Mind Seize. It's going to take a pretty large increase in product availability over the first run just to satisfy people in my social circle alone. The four or so local gaming stores and a dozen or so big boxes so far haven't come close to providing enough product to meet demand and it will take a second wave 10x the size of the first to meet it.
YMMV on that of course. I'm only speaking of local supply/demand.
GReki, the History of Kamigawa Legendfall
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest Drawmaster of Trest | GBGlissa the Traitor A Touch of Death | WBTeysa, Orzhov Scion Spinning in Graves
UWIsperia, Supreme Judge A Riddles of Sphinxes | RG Mena and Denn, Wildborn Beware Falling Rocks | GWSigarda, Host of Hurons The Enchantress
WRGRith the Awakener Superfriendly Tokens
43/111, approximately 39% complete. Over a third done.
(calling it now; there will be a cycle of Legendary dual lands with Basic Land types in Theros block)
... AAAAAAAAND I was wrong
The Attention Deficit Guy URGU
The first installment of product in the big box stores always moves. Last time, you could find all of the decks two-three months out. I think I bought my last decks three months after release in a Wal-Mart. People stop looking after the first few weeks. So, the second printing will probably be enough. These are commander decks after all, you should only need 1 of each. Even the legacy decks using TNN don't use 4.
For more reprints, either demand for the entire set of five has to push ordering more sets, or else shops will have to mark up the decks that do sell to make up for the fact that they can't order just the specific hot sellers (*cough*Mind Seize*cough*) and will have to make up any difference from unsold or held less popular decks. At least, that's how I expect it would work with speciality shops - the big box stores probably will only bother re-ordering if they move everything.
Based on the trends in both mark-up and particular absences in stores, I wouldn't count on the second wave to lower the cost of the "standout" decks that are already commanding higher prices unless you've worked out a pre-order/reserve deal with your FLGS. It will help for 4/5 decks which you will likely be able to freely get at big box stores, but scalpers will be all over the next wave to snipe and flip Mind Seize for profit. The other four decks will linger on shelves and because of the way they are printed and distributed, further waves will be either limited in number or reduced.
Unless you pre-ordered, or are quick on the draw/get lucky, it might not be possible to avoid paying a premium on Mind Seize from here on out.
They pretty much did that with the last decks and they all sold just fine. Even the "worst" one never stayed on shelves all that long.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
If these "scalpers" cannot unload their investment then they have to price adjust or will be sitting in with the product, so it's all a matter of which party is the most patient.
The second wave will aid some to get their decks, whether all will be satisfied is an entirely different story. I do hope Wizards will read some of this (not necessary from this forum) and enable single deck-orders.
TBH I'm kinda astonished that the demand for Grixis is this high as I'd rather just expect that people wanted it for Legacy (and thus those who'd wish to scalp those people). But from an EDH-player's point of view, is Grixis' decklist really that much more appealing than any of the others?
Or is it really the appeal of the financial value that draws people?
I think it's just that it's worth money. It doesn't make sense, really... people buy the product because they feel it's worth more which in turn makes it worth more. All the decks look good to me so, yeah, I think a lot of it is perceived "value" from the product and hype.
It's the $Value$ of the deck. The deck itself isn't really that interesting outside of a few cards but it's not as internally cohesive as it could have been. I could be wrong, but from what anecdotal evidence have it's the worst of the 5.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
This time the new generals are not as good, and it is not adding much to playability options. For Esper my prefered general options are not in the new ones, and the repeat general is not even in my top for the color, as if I want to play an artifact based deck, I want red for Welder, Trash for Treasure, Slobad, etc. when I went to build an artifact based EDH deck I ended up with Grixis, not Esper because of the artifact support from red back in the day.
Fact or opinion? If I try to look at the decks objectively, it seems like they are very similar to the last set.
This might be partially why you said the first thing.
Fact or opinion? These generals are competing against some really well established cards within well established archetypes. Of course it's going to seem like they don't offer anything new when we are all looking at how they fit in our current decks built with the old Generals in mind. To say that any of the 10 new Generals are not good just doesn't seem accurate. To say they aren't good in the decks we already have might be accurate though..
Okay. But, I bet people who like Esper can give you their rationale for White over Red. Oloro is clearly a pillowfort general and Sydri is obviously a "Doomsday Machine" kind of general - she lets the artifact heavy deck assemble the pieces to do it's thing and provides another win condition with the pieces that are already in the deck.
The Jund Generals are both clear signals too. We don't really have a Stax general outside of Adun Oakenshield and Jund Sac/Tokens has nothing worth playing even though it's a popular deck. Jund got generals that support already existing strategies.
Grixis's Generals are the same. Extract Control and Wheel Combo decks are played but people just use whatever good General they feel fits best. None of them directly helped these decks and now we have them.
Naya is trash in most cases because the generals all tell you to build around them or they are so terrible you don't want to mess with them... or they are so rare and expensive that you can't afford it. So, we get a political variant of a Token Swarm General and then we get the Ramp Combo General. Rith just died a painful death. Mayael should die. Uril got replaced.
Bant is UGx and should be the strongest shard based on that. But, with the old Bant Generals it's really hard to find a card that supports some of the most popular strategies - blink and control. Rafiq, Jenara, and whatever other creature they have all push for more combat based decks even though the 99 scream "CONTROL COMBO!" They fixed that.
tl:dr - They just printed 10 generals that do what a lot of people already do in the 99 cards. Our "X" deck has been running a "Y" General because there wasn't an "X" legend. Fixed.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Well, the Grixis deck lets you buy it for $30, crack it open, ebay the True-Name Nemisis for $30, and have 99 other cards for essentially free (at least at the moment). I personally could always use more free Sol Rings, Command Towers, etc.
GReki, the History of Kamigawa Legendfall
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest Drawmaster of Trest | GBGlissa the Traitor A Touch of Death | WBTeysa, Orzhov Scion Spinning in Graves
UWIsperia, Supreme Judge A Riddles of Sphinxes | RG Mena and Denn, Wildborn Beware Falling Rocks | GWSigarda, Host of Hurons The Enchantress
WRGRith the Awakener Superfriendly Tokens
Wizards doesn't print new cards just to print cards that will be expensive. Sure they may have an idea of what will be valuable on the secondary market, but they print the cards to print cool new cards that people will get excited about. There was no "So TNN will prolly be about $30 so let's just throw that in that deck to make people want it." They printed it because it was cool, and it just happens to be making some splashes in Legacy RIGHT NOW. Wizards respects the secondary market for what it is: secondary. They understand that certain cards will just become valuable, as mandated by the playerbase, not by Wizards.
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Scion of the Ur-Dragon:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:dimir::dimir:Grimgrin, Corpse-Born:dimir::dimir:
:symg::symg:Azusa, Lost but Seeking:symg::symg:
Do you know what WOTC does with the Kaijudo competitive decks? In a set where there are two competitive decks released with the Kaijudo set, they package all of one kind of deck in one box, and all of one kind of the other deck in the other box. I just don't understand why they have to package one of each in a box, rather than five of one in a box, and having 4 other boxes having 5 of one kind.
That made no sense about the deck packaging, I don't understand what you were trying to illustrate...
"they package all of one kind of deck in one box, and all of one kind of the other deck in the other box."
i don't know how big the print run for the second wave,
but i already pre-order and paid in full for mine.
i know, crazy right, i have to paid in full already for the product i will receive on january.
and actually, it's still not a sure thing,
because even the first wave we all also already paid in full, and confident to get it, but suddenly, the regional distributor said it's limited, then the store refund all of our money.
then after so much of yelling and screaming, finally, the regional distributor said there will be a second wave, and we have to paid in advanced, again.
let's just hope this time it's not limited and refunded, again.
*fingers crossed*
If you purchased kaijudo competitive deck displays, you would know that there are 2 different kinds of displays, and not just one. In MTG, when you purchase an intro pack display, or a box of commander 2013, you always get an equal amount of all 5 decks in a box. Not with Kaijudo. When you buy the display for deck A, you get only deck A in that display. You have to purchase a separate display to get deck B.
Let me put this easier for you. Each commander precon type needs to have their own separate UPC code.
Maro has talked about this on his tumblr a few times. It has to do with their reluctance to throw a lot of codes at retailers -- it makes things more difficult for ordering and inventory, etc. Keep it Simple. I guess they figured it'd be OK for Kaijudo because it was only 2 decks instead of 5?
-- David Falk, Seattle Soccer Examiner, March 2009
Plus it's probably part of the printing and packaging process to do 500 cards at a time this way.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist