And how is this deck better than Control Scapeshift? Your post reminds me of the people that said exactly the same thing about Scapeshift.
What is Scapeshifts plan B way to win? That is the difference. Thoptor can be either plan A or plan B in a lot of decks. It does not have to be centered around the interaction.
What is Scapeshifts plan B way to win? That is the difference. Thoptor can be either plan A or plan B in a lot of decks. It does not have to be centered around the interaction.
Primeval Titan & Prismatic Omen.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Which is what Scapeshift is centered around, not a plan B. Maybe a beat down with titan, but there is numerous ways to deal with him, and since the format is creature based, its a bad plan B for a land based plan A.
If thopter sword advantage was so huge as some people are claiming it to be, Assemble the Legion would see tons of play.
Even though it cost more, it comes online almost at the same time as the thopter/sword would, it alone generate the resource while with thopter sword, you need to assemble two cards and win through maindeckable hate (DRS, Ooze, Decay...).
Not saying that Assemble the legion is a good card, in fact it is bad, and besides the lifegain the risk/value of it is higher than thopter/sword.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Thopter Sword explodes a lot faster than Assemble the Legion.
And it makes flying machines.
While also providing marginal life gain.
But it's most importantly a dude spamming mana sink rather than an escalating source of inevitability hampered by coming down late and taking a while to get up to speed.
If thopter sword advantage was so huge as some people are claiming it to be, Assemble the Legion would see tons of play.
Even though it cost more, it comes online almost at the same time as the thopter/sword would, it alone generate the resource while with thopter sword, you need to assemble two cards and win through maindeckable hate (DRS, Ooze, Decay...).
Not saying that Assemble the legion is a good card, in fact it is bad, and besides the lifegain the risk/value of it is higher than thopter/sword.
Deathrite Shaman is a literal blank against the combo, it doesn't interact with it in the slightest, Decay is annoying but its definitely beatable unless its Decay + Surgical Extraction or something like that and Ooze isn't a problem because you have to be pants on head retarded to assemble to combo into an active Ooze and you're certainly not letting one resolve post combo. The reason why its so much better than cards like like Assemble the Legion is because it generates immediate value, is easier to tutor for and its far more resilient, artifact removal might as well not be an answer since you're likely to be running Academy Ruins which blanks all of the removal they are running. I honestly don't think the people who want this card unbanned have actually played with the card, its far more powerful than it seems, a lot would have to change before it would be reasonable in the format. If a card like Bitterblossom which makes 1/1 fliers as well but at the cost of one 1 life and getting only one per term is banned, what makes you think a combo engine that gains you one life and a 1/1 flyer per each mana you have is going to be unbanned? If control needs a leg up there are far more reasonable cards to unban (ancestral visions).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Control Mirror matches are notorious for going to time anyways. ThopterSword would not change that.
If beatdown hasn't won by the time ThopterSword is online (and having no way at all to interact) then the deck deserves to lose.
As for Card advantage engines, Anything running black can run Liliana of the Veil, which is amazing against all three "Pillars of Magic", yet control can't have a two card combo to stablize?
All those Overextended reasons were bull****. Not to mention the fact that we have more available and prevalent hate cards in the metagame then two-and-a-half years ago. (Meaning the combo doesn't fit so smoothly into control decks anymore. Anyone running singleton foundry and sword is an idiot with the insane amount of hate around.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Control Mirror matches are notorious for going to time anyways. ThopterSword would not change that.
If beatdown hasn't won by the time ThopterSword is online (and having no way at all to interact) then the deck deserves to lose.
As for Card advantage engines, Anything running black can run Liliana of the Veil, which is amazing against all three "Pillars of Magic", yet control can't have a two card combo to stablize?
All those Overextended reasons were bull****. Not to mention the fact that we have more available and prevalent hate cards in the metagame then two-and-a-half years ago. (Meaning the combo doesn't fit so smoothly into control decks anymore. Anyone running singleton foundry and sword is an idiot with the insane amount of hate around.)
No builds running Thopter Sword in Extended played 1 and 1, it was usually 1 Sword and 2 Foundry or 2 and 3 if they were more dedicated to the combo so that point is completely moot. The reason being that the Foundry is the more vulnerable because removal on it actually matters where as removing Sword literally does nothing. Control shouldn't be allowed to have a an engine card that helps them stabilize and is pretty much unbeatable for most decks. Midrange has absolutely no chance against an engine that basically creates unlimited fliers while making it harder for them to close out the game by gaining life and they have pretty much no chance of ending the game before it happens. And really 3 cards have be printed which actually matter for Thopter Sword, Rest in Piece, and Stoney Silence. The rest of the supposed hate cards (pro tip: Ancient Grudge and its ilk are pretty **** hate cards) are extremely beatable because you're still a control deck in Blue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Honestly though, Pod decks are right up there with the BGx shell (and in fact can edge it out rather often). Both of these need to be dealt with at the same time, however.
Plus, Fauna Shaman still exists if it does get the axe and that card doesn't abuse LTB/dies effects.
No builds running Thopter Sword in Extended played 1 and 1, it was usually 1 Sword and 2 Foundry or 2 and 3 if they were more dedicated to the combo so that point is completely moot. The reason being that the Foundry is the more vulnerable because removal on it actually matters where as removing Sword literally does nothing. Control shouldn't be allowed to have a an engine card that helps them stabilize and is pretty much unbeatable for most decks. Midrange has absolutely no chance against an engine that basically creates unlimited fliers while making it harder for them to close out the game by gaining life and they have pretty much no chance of ending the game before it happens. And really 3 cards have be printed which actually matter for Thopter Sword, Rest in Piece, and Stoney Silence. The rest of the supposed hate cards (pro tip: Ancient Grudge and its ilk are pretty **** hate cards) are extremely beatable because you're still a control deck in Blue.
You forget that abrupt is BG (uncounterable, so doesn't matter the deck runs blue), and that BG uses tectonic edge (no Academy ruins recursion). Both maindeckable in BGx, to complement Ooze. And that is only maindeck, sideboard gives a lot more options.
You're considering good scenarios on one side of the board, without considering the same good scenarios on the other side.
PS.: i goofed on the DRS comment, i forget that he can't grab artifacts.
I for one agree with the arguments that were stated when discussing SotM overextended, and think it's stay on the banned list is well deserved.
Not to mention that it would be a completely inane move to unban something like this in a format that has Wild Nacatl on it's banned list and has only one high profile aggro deck.
SotM and the combo that it enables wouldn't invalidate Affinity, not by a long shot, but it would be hell on other aggro decks trying to ascend to competitive levels (like they needed that to be more difficult then it already is).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Honestly though, Pod decks are right up there with the BGx shell (and in fact can edge it out rather often). Both of these need to be dealt with at the same time, however.
Plus, Fauna Shaman still exists if it does get the axe and that card doesn't abuse LTB/dies effects.
Why do they? They aren't currently dominating the meta. Also, Pod would never be banned. They wouldn't kill Kiki Pod, another tier 1 deck that is not overpowered, just to kill Melira Pod. Until said decks become tier 0, they are fine. Even BGx isn't that problematic (Yes, in 3 different forms it makes up 20% of the meta, but just because they are built around the same core cards doesn't make them the same. WUR Control and WUR Midrange both run the same core instants and sorceries, but they are not the same deck.). Modern doesn't need more bans (though I wouldn't mind a Scooze or DRS ban). It needs unbans and new cards.
Control Mirror matches are notorious for going to time anyways. ThopterSword would not change that.
So you're suggesting that instead of fixing this problem for control we just have to live with it? Why not print some faster and inevitable win condition for control instead of unbanning a very slow win condition? Or unban Preordain so that control can find it's win condition faster? Control mirror going to time is because of both decks drawing blank for a few turns and not having inevitability.
You forget that abrupt is BG (uncounterable, so doesn't matter the deck runs blue), and that BG uses tectonic edge (no Academy ruins recursion). Both maindeckable in BGx, to complement Ooze. And that is only maindeck, sideboard gives a lot more options.
You're considering good scenarios on one side of the board, without considering the same good scenarios on the other side.
PS.: i goofed on the DRS comment, i forget that he can't grab artifacts.
What's happening here? Another argument that uses BG as an excuse for unbanning a card? Great let's unban all the things BG is good against and forget other decks that have no answer to those things. Then let's bash BG again for being so good against so many decks.
I definitely don't think Dredge will be a thing after GGT is unbanned, however due to many things that need immediate attention, i think it's better to leave GGT for now since it will have no effect in the meta. Why fix something that's not problematic? Even though there won't be a powerful Dredge deck powered by GGT, it won't stop brewers from trying to break it if it's legal. Meaning, there will still be people that will play it and there will be another deck that control decks need to answer. If control decks does come across these decks and loses, and BGx comes across these decks and win due to maindeck answer, then you will see another top 8 full of BGx.
So you're against meta diversity and rogue brewing because it adds more decks that 'control needs to answer'?
Why unban a card that will likely not affect the meta? Diversity. The more cards in the pool, the more deck building options, and the more potential deck diversity in the meta. If a card does not belong on the banlist it does not belong. End of story. We don't know that GGT will not find a home or will not make a deck viable somewhere down the road, he might be good for the meta for all we know. However, as it stands he is not allowed to offer anything for no good reason.
Saying a card is fine for the meta, while simultaneously saying it should not be unbanned because people will try and use it, is a very strange argument.
What's happening here? Another argument that uses BG as an excuse for unbanning a card? Great let's unban all the things BG is good against and forget other decks that have no answer to those things. Then let's bash BG again for being so good against so many decks.
I'm just giving an answer to the two groups of people advocating both against and in favor of SotM.
Pro SotM unban: they say that ThopterSword is strong against BGx: but BGx have 3 maindeck cards that totally hoses ThopterSword, two of wich most controls can't even interact well with (a land and an uncounterable spell)
Againt SotM unban: they say that ThopterSword is absurdely powerful and nearly unbeatable: but BGx have 3 maindeck cards that totally hoses ThopterSword, two of wich most controls can't even interact well with (a land and an uncounterable spell)
Notice that the same reasoning fit in both cases.
I think that some people are overvaluing the ThopterSword combo, modern have really a lot of ways to deal with an artifact based combo that relies on the grave.
And others are using a bad reasoing to advocate it's unban, because BGx have plenty of ways of dealing with ThopterSword.
I think that the Sword can come out of the ban list, but now is not the time, now what modern needs is something to hold up BGx from becoming tier 0 and forcing a ban on it, and the cards on the banned list with the best chance of acheiving it are Preordain or Ancestral Visions, not Sword.
I think that the Sword can come out of the ban list, but now is not the time, now what modern needs is something to hold up BGx from becoming tier 0 and forcing a ban on it, and the card on the banned list with the best chance of acheiving it is Preordain or Ancestral Visions, not Sword.
I totally agree with you on this. Although I also see no threat in unbanning Sword, GGT, and Wild Nacatl, it's not what needs to be unbanned now. They need to balance first the meta by unbanning some good stuff from other colors that are not BG. Since BG is a good stuff deck, it mainly dominates because the other colors' good stuff are not competitive enough. They should probably unban/print some "good stuff" control cards in U/W. Unbanning Sword, GGT, Wild Nacatl right now is not a good time because they have linear applications. Yes we will be adding some diversity to the meta, but it's already diverse enough as it is. It's not a necessity to add a deck or two to the meta because people will still play the best shell and people will still complain that "OMG BG is so good, ban something from it". I remember that when they unban Valakut, the meta has no dominating deck. So I guess they will need to wait for that same state of Modern to unban things that will introduce a new combo or a new graveyard strategy.
I'm just giving an answer to the two groups of people advocating both against and in favor of SotM.
Pro SotM unban: they say that ThopterSword is strong against BGx: but BGx have 3 maindeck cards that totally hoses ThopterSword, two of wich most controls can't even interact well with (a land and an uncounterable spell)
Againt SotM unban: they say that ThopterSword is absurdely powerful and nearly unbeatable: but BGx have 3 maindeck cards that totally hoses ThopterSword, two of wich most controls can't even interact well with (a land and an uncounterable spell)
Notice that the same reasoning fit in both cases.
I think that some people are overvaluing the ThopterSword combo, modern have really a lot of ways to deal with an artifact based combo that relies on the grave.
And others are using a bad reasoing to advocate it's unban, because BGx have plenty of ways of dealing with ThopterSword.
I think that the Sword can come out of the ban list, but now is not the time, now what modern needs is something to hold up BGx from becoming tier 0 and forcing a ban on it, and the cards on the banned list with the best chance of acheiving it are Preordain or Ancestral Visions, not Sword.
Please just answer me this, have you every actually played a format where the combo was actually legal and a top tier deck? It looks like its fragile and weak but in practice that's not actually the case, that's why it was the finish of choice for literally every control deck because its cheap, it gives inevitability like no other finisher, and its extremely resilient.
Part of it is that you are assuming it operates like a combo deck and not a control deck, if I'm playing thopter sword, I'm not trying to assemble it as quick as possible, you only need to assemble it when you've taken control of the game so that you can actually close it out. This is unlike other control finishers because if they deal with it you're back to square one. Once I assemble it, I can win the game without ever having to spend mana on my turn so I can play draw go and prevent you from doing anything relevant for the rest of the game. You have to jump through quite a lot of hoops to actually permanently deal with the combo as just artifact destruction isn't enough. And I'm not going to assemble the combo into something stupid like an active Ooze, that's why the best answer to the combo is still Extirpate, which saw a lot of play in Extended specifically for the Thopter Combo because that's the only card that's pretty much impossible to interact with.
I think a lot would have to change in the format before SotM could become legal, the power level would have to be much much higher. Especially because the SotM control decks were arguably the best decks prior to Thepths in a format with Hypergenesis, Elves, Dark Depths, Storm, and Dredge, all of which are banned or severely nerfed in this format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Rest in Peace, Tectonic Edge, Ghost Quarter, Ancient Grudge, Leyline of the Void, Qasali Pridemage, Scavenging Ooze, Extirpate, Surgical Extraction, Slaughter Games, Illness in the Ranks, Rain of Gore, Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, Deglamer, Stony Silence, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Spell Snare, Beast Within, Fulminator Mage, Withered Wretch, Yxlid Jailor, Relic of Progenitus, Scrabbling Claws, Tormod's Crypt...etc.
I'm undoubtedly missing some.
These are all cards that can stop, slow, or disrupt ThopterSword combo, in all the colors of Modern. Any deck has access to hate, and many of these cards are found mainboard. Not to mention, infinite and "over the top" (like storm or scapeshift for 8 lands) just don't care.
Sword of the Meek is safe for Modern. Its not the "boogeyman" it was 3+ years ago in extended.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Rest in Peace, Tectonic Edge, Ghost Quarter, Ancient Grudge, Leyline of the Void, Qasali Pridemage, Scavenging Ooze, Extirpate, Surgical Extraction, Slaughter Games, Illness in the Ranks, Rain of Gore, Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, Deglamer, Stony Silence, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Spell Snare, Beast Within, Fulminator Mage, Withered Wretch, Yxlid Jailor, Relic of Progenitus, Scrabbling Claws, Tormod's Crypt...etc.
I'm undoubtedly missing some.
These are all cards that can stop, slow, or disrupt ThopterSword combo, in all the colors of Modern. Any deck has access to hate, and many of these cards are found mainboard. Not to mention, infinite and "over the top" (like storm or scapeshift for 8 lands) just don't care.
Sword of the Meek is safe for Modern. Its not the "boogeyman" it was 3+ years ago in extended.
And yet the vast majority of these cards were legal with Sword of the Meek and it still was one of the best decks, I don't think the introduction of 1-2 more real answers would really change that. You keep treating it like its a combo when its not, its a mana sink finisher for control decks so you only go for it when you are certain that you can protect it adequately. And if they do deal with it you have other finishers in your deck because it takes up so few slots, you can always just Unburial Rites an Iona since you are likely playing Gifts already. I really don't think you played Extended when it was legal and that is why you aren't evaluating the card correctly, its much more powerful in practice than it seems on paper. Plus there are far more less offensive things on the list that would be more reasonable to come off and still haven't so arguing for SotM is absolutely ridiculous. I'm willing to bet good money that SotM will not come off the list for a long time if ever, Thepths left a bad taste in people's mouth and Wizards is very cautious of releasing things into modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Why do they? They aren't currently dominating the meta. Also, Pod would never be banned. They wouldn't kill Kiki Pod, another tier 1 deck that is not overpowered, just to kill Melira Pod. Until said decks become tier 0, they are fine. Even BGx isn't that problematic (Yes, in 3 different forms it makes up 20% of the meta, but just because they are built around the same core cards doesn't make them the same. WUR Control and WUR Midrange both run the same core instants and sorceries, but they are not the same deck.). Modern doesn't need more bans (though I wouldn't mind a Scooze or DRS ban). It needs unbans and new cards.
I think we can all agree that Pod and BGx are on the top and pushing other decks down.
Don't get me wrong, I love Survival and Pod is a cool card, but WotC has this habit of banning enablers rather than the stupid cards that only work for one combo. If I recall correctly, the last thing to come before the survival ban was Emrakul, the Aeons Torn/Loyal Retainers and Phyrexian Devourer/Necrotic Ooze. Two combos that contain at lest one otherwise useless card. But, rather than ban multiple niche pieces, WotC goes for the enabler.
So you're suggesting that instead of fixing this problem for control we just have to live with it? Why not print some faster and inevitable win condition for control instead of unbanning a very slow win condition? Or unban Preordain so that control can find it's win condition faster? Control mirror going to time is because of both decks drawing blank for a few turns and not having inevitability.
Because those will inevitably slot into midrange decks more effectively than control decks. Fast and efficient is exactly what midrange wants at the top of their curves.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
What is Scapeshifts plan B way to win? That is the difference. Thoptor can be either plan A or plan B in a lot of decks. It does not have to be centered around the interaction.
Primeval Titan & Prismatic Omen.
Which is what Scapeshift is centered around, not a plan B. Maybe a beat down with titan, but there is numerous ways to deal with him, and since the format is creature based, its a bad plan B for a land based plan A.
Even though it cost more, it comes online almost at the same time as the thopter/sword would, it alone generate the resource while with thopter sword, you need to assemble two cards and win through maindeckable hate (DRS, Ooze, Decay...).
Not saying that Assemble the legion is a good card, in fact it is bad, and besides the lifegain the risk/value of it is higher than thopter/sword.
And it makes flying machines.
While also providing marginal life gain.
But it's most importantly a dude spamming mana sink rather than an escalating source of inevitability hampered by coming down late and taking a while to get up to speed.
Deathrite Shaman is a literal blank against the combo, it doesn't interact with it in the slightest, Decay is annoying but its definitely beatable unless its Decay + Surgical Extraction or something like that and Ooze isn't a problem because you have to be pants on head retarded to assemble to combo into an active Ooze and you're certainly not letting one resolve post combo. The reason why its so much better than cards like like Assemble the Legion is because it generates immediate value, is easier to tutor for and its far more resilient, artifact removal might as well not be an answer since you're likely to be running Academy Ruins which blanks all of the removal they are running. I honestly don't think the people who want this card unbanned have actually played with the card, its far more powerful than it seems, a lot would have to change before it would be reasonable in the format. If a card like Bitterblossom which makes 1/1 fliers as well but at the cost of one 1 life and getting only one per term is banned, what makes you think a combo engine that gains you one life and a 1/1 flyer per each mana you have is going to be unbanned? If control needs a leg up there are far more reasonable cards to unban (ancestral visions).
If beatdown hasn't won by the time ThopterSword is online (and having no way at all to interact) then the deck deserves to lose.
As for Card advantage engines, Anything running black can run Liliana of the Veil, which is amazing against all three "Pillars of Magic", yet control can't have a two card combo to stablize?
All those Overextended reasons were bull****. Not to mention the fact that we have more available and prevalent hate cards in the metagame then two-and-a-half years ago. (Meaning the combo doesn't fit so smoothly into control decks anymore. Anyone running singleton foundry and sword is an idiot with the insane amount of hate around.)
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
No builds running Thopter Sword in Extended played 1 and 1, it was usually 1 Sword and 2 Foundry or 2 and 3 if they were more dedicated to the combo so that point is completely moot. The reason being that the Foundry is the more vulnerable because removal on it actually matters where as removing Sword literally does nothing. Control shouldn't be allowed to have a an engine card that helps them stabilize and is pretty much unbeatable for most decks. Midrange has absolutely no chance against an engine that basically creates unlimited fliers while making it harder for them to close out the game by gaining life and they have pretty much no chance of ending the game before it happens. And really 3 cards have be printed which actually matter for Thopter Sword, Rest in Piece, and Stoney Silence. The rest of the supposed hate cards (pro tip: Ancient Grudge and its ilk are pretty **** hate cards) are extremely beatable because you're still a control deck in Blue.
You haven't lived until you've resolved Grave Titan in Modern.
Well, with Survival of the Fittest banned, this is the best option for the effect.
Honestly though, Pod decks are right up there with the BGx shell (and in fact can edge it out rather often). Both of these need to be dealt with at the same time, however.
Plus, Fauna Shaman still exists if it does get the axe and that card doesn't abuse LTB/dies effects.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
You're considering good scenarios on one side of the board, without considering the same good scenarios on the other side.
PS.: i goofed on the DRS comment, i forget that he can't grab artifacts.
Not to mention that it would be a completely inane move to unban something like this in a format that has Wild Nacatl on it's banned list and has only one high profile aggro deck.
SotM and the combo that it enables wouldn't invalidate Affinity, not by a long shot, but it would be hell on other aggro decks trying to ascend to competitive levels (like they needed that to be more difficult then it already is).
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Why do they? They aren't currently dominating the meta. Also, Pod would never be banned. They wouldn't kill Kiki Pod, another tier 1 deck that is not overpowered, just to kill Melira Pod. Until said decks become tier 0, they are fine. Even BGx isn't that problematic (Yes, in 3 different forms it makes up 20% of the meta, but just because they are built around the same core cards doesn't make them the same. WUR Control and WUR Midrange both run the same core instants and sorceries, but they are not the same deck.). Modern doesn't need more bans (though I wouldn't mind a Scooze or DRS ban). It needs unbans and new cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
So you're suggesting that instead of fixing this problem for control we just have to live with it? Why not print some faster and inevitable win condition for control instead of unbanning a very slow win condition? Or unban Preordain so that control can find it's win condition faster? Control mirror going to time is because of both decks drawing blank for a few turns and not having inevitability.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
What's happening here? Another argument that uses BG as an excuse for unbanning a card? Great let's unban all the things BG is good against and forget other decks that have no answer to those things. Then let's bash BG again for being so good against so many decks.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
So you're against meta diversity and rogue brewing because it adds more decks that 'control needs to answer'?
Why unban a card that will likely not affect the meta? Diversity. The more cards in the pool, the more deck building options, and the more potential deck diversity in the meta. If a card does not belong on the banlist it does not belong. End of story. We don't know that GGT will not find a home or will not make a deck viable somewhere down the road, he might be good for the meta for all we know. However, as it stands he is not allowed to offer anything for no good reason.
Saying a card is fine for the meta, while simultaneously saying it should not be unbanned because people will try and use it, is a very strange argument.
I'm just giving an answer to the two groups of people advocating both against and in favor of SotM.
Pro SotM unban: they say that ThopterSword is strong against BGx: but BGx have 3 maindeck cards that totally hoses ThopterSword, two of wich most controls can't even interact well with (a land and an uncounterable spell)
Againt SotM unban: they say that ThopterSword is absurdely powerful and nearly unbeatable: but BGx have 3 maindeck cards that totally hoses ThopterSword, two of wich most controls can't even interact well with (a land and an uncounterable spell)
Notice that the same reasoning fit in both cases.
I think that some people are overvaluing the ThopterSword combo, modern have really a lot of ways to deal with an artifact based combo that relies on the grave.
And others are using a bad reasoing to advocate it's unban, because BGx have plenty of ways of dealing with ThopterSword.
I think that the Sword can come out of the ban list, but now is not the time, now what modern needs is something to hold up BGx from becoming tier 0 and forcing a ban on it, and the cards on the banned list with the best chance of acheiving it are Preordain or Ancestral Visions, not Sword.
I totally agree with you on this. Although I also see no threat in unbanning Sword, GGT, and Wild Nacatl, it's not what needs to be unbanned now. They need to balance first the meta by unbanning some good stuff from other colors that are not BG. Since BG is a good stuff deck, it mainly dominates because the other colors' good stuff are not competitive enough. They should probably unban/print some "good stuff" control cards in U/W. Unbanning Sword, GGT, Wild Nacatl right now is not a good time because they have linear applications. Yes we will be adding some diversity to the meta, but it's already diverse enough as it is. It's not a necessity to add a deck or two to the meta because people will still play the best shell and people will still complain that "OMG BG is so good, ban something from it". I remember that when they unban Valakut, the meta has no dominating deck. So I guess they will need to wait for that same state of Modern to unban things that will introduce a new combo or a new graveyard strategy.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
Please just answer me this, have you every actually played a format where the combo was actually legal and a top tier deck? It looks like its fragile and weak but in practice that's not actually the case, that's why it was the finish of choice for literally every control deck because its cheap, it gives inevitability like no other finisher, and its extremely resilient.
Part of it is that you are assuming it operates like a combo deck and not a control deck, if I'm playing thopter sword, I'm not trying to assemble it as quick as possible, you only need to assemble it when you've taken control of the game so that you can actually close it out. This is unlike other control finishers because if they deal with it you're back to square one. Once I assemble it, I can win the game without ever having to spend mana on my turn so I can play draw go and prevent you from doing anything relevant for the rest of the game. You have to jump through quite a lot of hoops to actually permanently deal with the combo as just artifact destruction isn't enough. And I'm not going to assemble the combo into something stupid like an active Ooze, that's why the best answer to the combo is still Extirpate, which saw a lot of play in Extended specifically for the Thopter Combo because that's the only card that's pretty much impossible to interact with.
I think a lot would have to change in the format before SotM could become legal, the power level would have to be much much higher. Especially because the SotM control decks were arguably the best decks prior to Thepths in a format with Hypergenesis, Elves, Dark Depths, Storm, and Dredge, all of which are banned or severely nerfed in this format.
I'm undoubtedly missing some.
These are all cards that can stop, slow, or disrupt ThopterSword combo, in all the colors of Modern. Any deck has access to hate, and many of these cards are found mainboard. Not to mention, infinite and "over the top" (like storm or scapeshift for 8 lands) just don't care.
Sword of the Meek is safe for Modern. Its not the "boogeyman" it was 3+ years ago in extended.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
And yet the vast majority of these cards were legal with Sword of the Meek and it still was one of the best decks, I don't think the introduction of 1-2 more real answers would really change that. You keep treating it like its a combo when its not, its a mana sink finisher for control decks so you only go for it when you are certain that you can protect it adequately. And if they do deal with it you have other finishers in your deck because it takes up so few slots, you can always just Unburial Rites an Iona since you are likely playing Gifts already. I really don't think you played Extended when it was legal and that is why you aren't evaluating the card correctly, its much more powerful in practice than it seems on paper. Plus there are far more less offensive things on the list that would be more reasonable to come off and still haven't so arguing for SotM is absolutely ridiculous. I'm willing to bet good money that SotM will not come off the list for a long time if ever, Thepths left a bad taste in people's mouth and Wizards is very cautious of releasing things into modern.
I think we can all agree that Pod and BGx are on the top and pushing other decks down.
Don't get me wrong, I love Survival and Pod is a cool card, but WotC has this habit of banning enablers rather than the stupid cards that only work for one combo. If I recall correctly, the last thing to come before the survival ban was Emrakul, the Aeons Torn/Loyal Retainers and Phyrexian Devourer/Necrotic Ooze. Two combos that contain at lest one otherwise useless card. But, rather than ban multiple niche pieces, WotC goes for the enabler.
Because those will inevitably slot into midrange decks more effectively than control decks. Fast and efficient is exactly what midrange wants at the top of their curves.