that's the difficulty of printing new cards though. the way they're handling limited and standard right now, everything good slots into midrange. we get the occasional sphinx's rev, but the way they're pushing creatures, it will always be a midrange fest. what they need are strong, more mana symbol heavy instants and sorceries. but they lack the balls to print anything good in that vein. not to mention, the colors the new cards would have to be in red, white, and blue. and instants and sorceries in these colors when pushed, are very good.
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Tectonic Edge is horrendous hate to manabases. Most decks can play with a completely fixed bases with only 3 lands.
Blood moon problem is that a single basic land that the opponent fetches on T1 or T2 (before Moon is on) is enoug to render it useless. (since the opponent will problably fetch the color that can deal with Moon).
Spreading Seas can shut greedy manabases only in multiples.
Exactly that is the point, Blood Moon and othe LD effects attack the mana fixing, and this is not enough to keep greedy mana decks in check, since they uses also creatures for the fixing.
What we need is something that punishes people with non-basic lands, without attacking the fix they have. Cards on the style of Price of Progress, Skyshroud Elite, card that benefits you if your opponents have many non-basics. Burning Eearth was a good try making the already suicidal manabases more suicidal, but is too slow.
How would price of progress or burning earth help fight against the fixing of manabases via Deathrite Shaman & Birds any more than blood moon would? And Skyshroud Elite? I don't think Kird Ape would punish anybody for playing greedy manabases.
This is just another reason why deathrite is a problem in the format. Birds of paradise has an actual drawback in being a rainbow mana producer, as it's a 0/1 that doesn't actually do much on it's own, and is a terrible topdeck. I would highly doubt you would see 4 color decks without the presence of Deathrite shaman. If you'll notice, just about every 4 color deck in the format plays deathrite.. which I don't believe is a coincidence.
Price of progress would just present a much larger problem to the format than it would solve. It would also 100% invalidate any deck that wants to play more than 3 lands, as it would end up being a 2 mana 6-10+ damage burn spell against decks like UWR control, UW control, etc etc. It's important to consider that allied color decks can't afford not to play a high volume of nonbasic lands as there are zero ally colored fetches in the format. I don't think it's a good idea to punish 2 color allied color decks in the format.
As for tectonic edge, the only problem is that it can't stop the turn 3 Karn from RG tron. Outside that, it's a lot stronger than most people give it credit for. It's at least 50% of the reason why many of the "jund" decks are going straight black/green right now, since it's a very strong card against more greedy manabases, and helps against tron when they don't have the turn 3 Karn coming down.
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Thopter Sword powers up Tezz based control mainly if they wanted to diversify control it is a perfect unban
Do you have a decklist that uses ThopterSword that is any good in Modern?
I am not disputing that it could be unbanned, my testing indicates that its a lot closer to the grave-troll-do-nothing than many people think. I'd love to see a ThopterSword deck that has reasonable matchups vs Jund/Pod/Tron.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
How would price of progress or burning earth help fight against the fixing of manabases via Deathrite Shaman & Birds any more than blood moon would? And Skyshroud Elite? I don't think Kird Ape would punish anybody for playing greedy manabases.
This is just another reason why deathrite is a problem in the format. Birds of paradise has an actual drawback in being a rainbow mana producer, as it's a 0/1 that doesn't actually do much on it's own, and is a terrible topdeck. I would highly doubt you would see 4 color decks without the presence of Deathrite shaman. If you'll notice, just about every 4 color deck in the format plays deathrite.. which I don't believe is a coincidence.
Price of progress would just present a much larger problem to the format than it would solve. It would also 100% invalidate any deck that wants to play more than 3 lands, as it would end up being a 2 mana 6-10+ damage burn spell against decks like UWR control, UW control, etc etc. It's important to consider that allied color decks can't afford not to play a high volume of nonbasic lands as there are zero ally colored fetches in the format. I don't think it's a good idea to punish 2 color allied color decks in the format.
As for tectonic edge, the only problem is that it can't stop the turn 3 Karn from RG tron. Outside that, it's a lot stronger than most people give it credit for. It's at least 50% of the reason why many of the "jund" decks are going straight black/green right now, since it's a very strong card against more greedy manabases, and helps against tron when they don't have the turn 3 Karn coming down.
I really like this analysis with regard to Price of Progress and the lack of allied fetchlands in the format. I think that's a really important point that makes it much more complex than to say that reprinting Price will solve the multi-color mana base "problem" (though I'm not at all sure that it's actually a problem).
I have a minor quibble with the DRS analysis though. It's true that it's not a coincidence that most four-color decks play DRS. It's because four-color decks need to play mana dorks for fixing. Most of them also play Birds of Paradise, and no one's complaining about that card. While it's nice that it has an upside, DRS would at least have a chance of being played in all of these decks even if it did no more than replicate Birds as a 1/2 non-flyer.
This does not change anything that you say about whether DRS is too good, but sometimes the reason why a mana dork is played in a 4-color deck is because 4-color decks need mana dorks that can produce 4 colors of mana.
I have a minor quibble with the DRS analysis though. It's true that it's not a coincidence that most four-color decks play DRS. It's because four-color decks need to play mana dorks for fixing. Most of them also play Birds of Paradise, and no one's complaining about that card. While it's nice that it has an upside, DRS would at least have a chance of being played in all of these decks even if it did no more than replicate Birds as a 1/2 non-flyer.
This does not change anything that you say about whether DRS is too good, but sometimes the reason why a mana dork is played in a 4-color deck is because 4-color decks need mana dorks that can produce 4 colors of mana.
This seems to overstate the presence of 4 colored decks in Modern. There are only two that are competitive in any degree: Kiki Pod and Ajundi. Kiki Pod prefers Birds because a) DRS is more unreliable, b) you feel bad when you convert a DRS into something higher up the chain, c) you aren't using the best ability (life-loss), and d) Kiki Pod doesn't grind out the game like Melira Pod, which takes extra advantage of DRS/Township/etc. Ajundi prefers DRS because it can use the life-loss mode on the dork and because it gives the deck added reach, all on top of mana fixing. Otherwise, there aren't a lot of decks who choose between one or the other.
Modern needs more shells to increase in power level mainly, as many have said the b/g shell has no real single weakness that a banning would help with. Just increase other shells like Boros, Azorius, etc in power level to compete with b/g
If we have 1 shell that is over powering the field, we dont need to help all the other shells to raise the power level, we need to cut back the power of the dominate shell to the other shells.
If we had multiple shells and some were lacking, I would agree to help those lacking, but we clearly have one heads and shoulders above the rest. That one needs to be nerfed.
If we have 1 shell that is over powering the field, we dont need to help all the other shells to raise the power level, we need to cut back the power of the dominate shell to the other shells.
If we had multiple shells and some were lacking, I would agree to help those lacking, but we clearly have one heads and shoulders above the rest. That one needs to be nerfed.
One thing I will say on this point is that MTGO tends to be a poor reflection of a deck's actual strength, but a very good reflection of its recent performance at professional events. Whenever a deck wins or does particularly well at a big event like a GP, it's all over MTGO for the next few weeks. In part, that's because it's probably a good deck. But it's also overrepresented because most players on MTGO want to win dailies and no brew or innovate (there is very little incentive to do that on MTGO). So just because Jund appears to be completely out of control online, and boy does it appear that way, doesn't mean the deck is actually out of control. We'll need to see GP Brisbane and GP Antwerp to know for sure.
Although that said, Jund would not need to make up more than half of the Top 16 for us to realize it's too broken. If GBx sends even 3 representatives to the Top 8 of both events, that's too much in my books, especially if the MTGO prevalence doesn't go down as well.
Do you have a decklist that uses ThopterSword that is any good in Modern?
I am not disputing that it could be unbanned, my testing indicates that its a lot closer to the grave-troll-do-nothing than many people think. I'd love to see a ThopterSword deck that has reasonable matchups vs Jund/Pod/Tron.
Not at the moment I have a tezzeret shell that runs foundry for value atm
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Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
How would price of progress or burning earth help fight against the fixing of manabases via Deathrite Shaman & Birds any more than blood moon would? And Skyshroud Elite? I don't think Kird Ape would punish anybody for playing greedy manabases.
People don't uses Birds and shaman in decks without heavy non-basic land bases. The problem is Moon is useless against someone with bird/DRS in play, the same for land destruction hate.
But, let's use Price of Progress as a example, it punishes them no matter if they have non-land fixes such as creatures or artifacts, if they have many non-basic lands in play, they will be punished.
Both Price of Progress and Skyshroud Elite were just example of a type of card that could help. I know that PoP itself would just totally screw modern, and that Skyshroud Elite would make nothing as it is.
But cards like them should be the refence for what wizards needs to do to fight against this greedy colors fest. They just need to balance them to a level that they are not just bad as Anathemancer.
As for tectonic edge, the only problem is that it can't stop the turn 3 Karn from RG tron. Outside that, it's a lot stronger than most people give it credit for. It's at least 50% of the reason why many of the "jund" decks are going straight black/green right now, since it's a very strong card against more greedy manabases, and helps against tron when they don't have the turn 3 Karn coming down
. Jund can play with 3 lands and DRS and Tectonic simply feeds DRS. Tectonic is not very good against mana fixing, being more useful against man-lands and tron (unless they Turn 3 karn)
it is very hard to. its strength is spread out over multiple cards. they won't ban goyf or bob and banning thoughtseize and inquisition just makes the ban list look more ridiculous than it is already. DRS (the card that should have been banned in the first place) and liliana are the other cards.
but like i said, i'd rather they power up other shells (either through unbanning or printing better things) than ban things. since banning things only leads to a new "best shell" until we're playing vanilla.format.
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This seems to overstate the presence of 4 colored decks in Modern. There are only two that are competitive in any degree: Kiki Pod and Ajundi. Kiki Pod prefers Birds because a) DRS is more unreliable, b) you feel bad when you convert a DRS into something higher up the chain, c) you aren't using the best ability (life-loss), and d) Kiki Pod doesn't grind out the game like Melira Pod, which takes extra advantage of DRS/Township/etc. Ajundi prefers DRS because it can use the life-loss mode on the dork and because it gives the deck added reach, all on top of mana fixing. Otherwise, there aren't a lot of decks who choose between one or the other.
But...but...4-color Gifts!
Seriously though, my point may have been slightly moot. As I said right before that, I don't exactly think that the fact that three- and four-color decks exist is a problem, particularly given the number of them, and I don't think that DRS is railed against because it's a mana dork. If it was just a mana dork no one would care.
I have a minor quibble with the DRS analysis though. It's true that it's not a coincidence that most four-color decks play DRS. It's because four-color decks need to play mana dorks for fixing. Most of them also play Birds of Paradise, and no one's complaining about that card. While it's nice that it has an upside, DRS would at least have a chance of being played in all of these decks even if it did no more than replicate Birds as a 1/2 non-flyer.
Nobody is complaining about birds because birds has drawbacks. Birds of paradise is terrible any time you draw it after turn 1 since you don't need the mana acceleration at that point.
Deathrite shaman on the other hand is a birds of paradise early on in the game, but then turns into a combination of Grim Lavamancer, Withered Wretch, and a life-gainer when you draw it after turn 1. And for whatever reason, it's a 1/2 on top of everything, so you can't play cards like Cunning Sparkmage which have historically been strong against decks that play lots of x'1 creatures.
When a deck plays against deathrite, it's a must-answer threat at any point of the game as it will kill the opponent if not answered.
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I really like this analysis with regard to Price of Progress and the lack of allied fetchlands in the format. I think that's a really important point that makes it much more complex than to say that reprinting Price will solve the multi-color mana base "problem" (though I'm not at all sure that it's actually a problem).
You know, this is a good point. I keep seeing people complaining about the "greedy manabases" in Modern, and I have to say... so what? Why is that a problem?
People always talk about how the format needs better nonbasic hate, but I really haven't seen any good reason as to why it does.
You know, this is a good point. I keep seeing people complaining about the "greedy manabases" in Modern, and I have to say... so what? Why is that a problem?
People always talk about how the format needs better nonbasic hate, but I really haven't seen any good reason as to why it does.
Because, right now the BG shell can splash 1 color with no loss at all and can even splash 2 and still be tier 1. This makes it really hard to do unbans and print cards to enable new archetypes because many decks, especially BGx, will just changed the x and splash a different color.
Because, right now the BG shell can splash 1 color with no loss at all and can even splash 2 and still be tier 1. This makes it really hard to do unbans and print cards to enable new archetypes because many decks, especially BGx, will just changed the x and splash a different color.
That's not an argument for nonbasic hate. That's at best an argument that BGx is too good, and the actual problematic cards there are Deathrite Shaman and Liliana.
Goyf is not the reason aggro is weak, nor is it the BGx "menace."
Aggro is weak because the three most played removal spells are Bolt Helix and Abrupt Decay. Three incredibly efficient removal spells that nuke every aggressive threat (sans goyf for the lightning based removal).
As said earlier, the two stupidest bans WotC could make would be fetchlands and Goyf. Deathrits shaman is also a very poor option for a ban. The best possible thing for this format is to unban or print cards that work against midrange strategies. Sword of the Meek and Nacatl simultaneously, to boost both aggro and control. ThopterSword is amazing against midrange, while not being unbeatable, due to the massive graveyard hate available, often mainboard in the form of scooze
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That's not an argument for nonbasic hate. That's at best an argument that BGx is too good, and the actual problematic cards there are Deathrite Shaman and Liliana.
Other people have said the problematic cards are Goyf and Thoughtseize. Still others have pointed to Bob, Decay, and Scooze. The whole point of a goodstuff.dec is to play cards that are good. You can't just ban cards out of them and expect them to die. That might work with other kinds of decks, but not these. Ultimately, you'd have to knock out a lot of the best cards in whatever the culprit colors are (in this case, BG).
So, I'd just "bite the bullet" and let a little power creep into Modern.
You know, this is a good point. I keep seeing people complaining about the "greedy manabases" in Modern, and I have to say... so what? Why is that a problem?
People always talk about how the format needs better nonbasic hate, but I really haven't seen any good reason as to why it does.
I don't know about every one else but I just find it annoying that any deck can play 3+ colors with no problems. There's just really no reason to run a 1-2 color deck right now which limits diversity and turns every deck into a goodstuff deck. It would be nice to see more decks that focus on synergy rather than just packing in all the staples of the format. I think it's bad when even burn is running 3-4 colors. A monored burn deck with price of progress and/or blood moon would make players think more about their manabase and not get too greedy.
Sword: It was banned in Overextended, not just for power level but also for time.
To be honest I can't ever see this coming off. There are already three combos that are overwhelmingly powerful in creature matchups: Punishing Grove, Thopter Sword, and Jitte + creature. Guess what? They're all banned.
DR: The "maindeck grave hate" you speak of is basically DRS and Ooze from the BG shell. Do you think all the other decks that aren't BG will be able to cope with DR unbanned? I don't. I tested an unmodified, three-year old Extended Dredge deck and it goldfished T3 kills more often than Epic Experiment Storm.
Glimpse: To be honest, I find the idea that Elves can kill on T3 consistently laughable.
Strike one: Elves cannot play cantrips, so naturally you're not as consistent as Storm, Eggs, Twin or Scapeshift. You have to play a large number of mana dorks costing G in that deck, so you simply don't have space for cantrips or nongreen sources. Without cantrips, your chance of drawing that oh-so-powerful Glimpse also drops.
Strike two: Green Sun's Zenith is banned. You can only combo off with Elves if you have Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel. Without GSZ, you can't find the missing half as consistently.
Strike three: It's a creature-based combo. This isn't like DR, where only one deck packs 6 maindeck hate for it. All the top decks at the moment are extremely well-suited to beat it. RDW and UWR are full of Bolts (UWR even has Electrolyze, a massive beating). Scapeshift and RG Tron have sweepers costing less than 4 mana.
There aren't any other decks that can use Glimpse. Yes, I know Cheeri0s exists in Legacy, but in Modern, you don't have the requisite number of 0s to play it. Glimpse is a build-around-me card, and if you don't have enough creatures that cost literally or effectively 0 mana, it's useless.
DD: This was eventually unbanned in Overextended. The reasoning was that the other half of the DD deck (Thopter Sword) was banned, so it could come off. Thespian's Stage might change things, though. It could fit into a deck with Knight of the Reliquary as a random kill combo, kind of like Pod. Is this too powerful? Who knows.
Song: It most definitely does not belong on the banned list. Swan Song stops literally everything that Storm can do, and more than a few other combos as well, like Twin and Scapeshift. Couple that with BG playing 6-8 maindeck grave hate now, and Storm deserves a little something.
Nacatl: Yeah, it could come off. I'm OK with an aggro deck that wins with pure 1-drop efficiency. I'd also like to point out once again that GSZ, a 4-of in Team CFB's PT Philadelphia Counter Cat Zoo deck, is banned.
That's not an argument for nonbasic hate. That's at best an argument that BGx is too good, and the actual problematic cards there are Deathrite Shaman and Liliana.
There is no "problematic card" on BGx, unless you consider all cards problematic.
BGx is just a goodstuff deck with some of the best modern cards, and will still be even if it have any of the cards banned.
BGx alone is strong, but is not oppressive, the problem is that BGx can easily splash to gain access of resources that BG alone don't have with no punishment. So no matter what they ban (DRS, Goyf, Bob, Lily...), the core will be still solid, and any cheap goodstuff card printed can be added to it, even if it not B or G.
I don't know about every one else but I just find it annoying that any deck can play 3+ colors with no problems. There's just really no reason to run a 1-2 color deck right now which limits diversity and turns every deck into a goodstuff deck. It would be nice to see more decks that focus on synergy rather than just packing in all the staples of the format. I think it's bad when even burn is running 3-4 colors. A monored burn deck with price of progress and/or blood moon would make players think more about their manabase and not get too greedy.
This just simply isn't the state of Modern right now. BGx decks and UWR decks aren't terribly synergistic, but almost everything else is. Tron? Affinity? Pod? Twin? Seriously, one of the best cards in the deck that just keeps winning is Orzhov Pontiff. Goodstuff isn't a requirement, and this sudden incoherent and irrational crusade against Jund doesn't change that.
I also have a very difficult time reconciling "any deck can play 3+ colors" and "limits diversity". Would it somehow limit diversity less if your only reasonable choices are 1 or 2 colors? That seems counter-intuitive.
Glimpse: To be honest, I find the idea that Elves can kill on T3 consistently laughable.
Strike one: Elves cannot play cantrips, so naturally you're not as consistent as Storm, Eggs, Twin or Scapeshift. You have to play a large number of mana dorks costing G in that deck, so you simply don't have space for cantrips or nongreen sources. Without cantrips, your chance of drawing that oh-so-powerful Glimpse also drops.
Strike two: Green Sun's Zenith is banned. You can only combo off with Elves if you have Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel. Without GSZ, you can't find the missing half as consistently.
Strike three: It's a creature-based combo. This isn't like DR, where only one deck packs 6 maindeck hate for it. All the top decks at the moment are extremely well-suited to beat it. RDW and UWR are full of Bolts (UWR even has Electrolyze, a massive beating). Scapeshift and RG Tron have sweepers costing less than 4 mana.
There aren't any other decks that can use Glimpse. Yes, I know Cheeri0s exists in Legacy, but in Modern, you don't have the requisite number of 0s to play it. Glimpse is a build-around-me card, and if you don't have enough creatures that cost literally or effectively 0 mana, it's useless.
First of all, I agree with everything you say. I just want to point out that, right or not, Wizards seems to have fixated on "we don't want turn 3 decks, even if they can only go turn 3 5% of the time." By the time Seething Song was banned, Storm was already extremely inconsistent on getting a turn 3 win. But it could. It might. It got banned. Seriously, if not for the printing of Scavenging Ooze I'd have expected Fury of the Horde to be banned already, and I wouldn't have been shocked to have seen it get banned a couple of weeks ago anyway. No one plays it, but sometimes it can win on turn 2.
That mindset seems irrational to me too, the zero tolerance on before-the-fourth-turn. But it is what it is.
Sword: It was banned in Overextended, not just for power level but also for time.
To be honest I can't ever see this coming off. There are already three combos that are overwhelmingly powerful in creature matchups: Punishing Grove, Thopter Sword, and Jitte + creature. Guess what? They're all banned.
DR: The "maindeck grave hate" you speak of is basically DRS and Ooze from the BG shell. Do you think all the other decks that aren't BG will be able to cope with DR unbanned? I don't. I tested an unmodified, three-year old Extended Dredge deck and it goldfished T3 kills more often than Epic Experiment Storm.
Glimpse: To be honest, I find the idea that Elves can kill on T3 consistently laughable.
Strike one: Elves cannot play cantrips, so naturally you're not as consistent as Storm, Eggs, Twin or Scapeshift. You have to play a large number of mana dorks costing G in that deck, so you simply don't have space for cantrips or nongreen sources. Without cantrips, your chance of drawing that oh-so-powerful Glimpse also drops.
Strike two: Green Sun's Zenith is banned. You can only combo off with Elves if you have Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel. Without GSZ, you can't find the missing half as consistently.
Strike three: It's a creature-based combo. This isn't like DR, where only one deck packs 6 maindeck hate for it. All the top decks at the moment are extremely well-suited to beat it. RDW and UWR are full of Bolts (UWR even has Electrolyze, a massive beating). Scapeshift and RG Tron have sweepers costing less than 4 mana.
There aren't any other decks that can use Glimpse. Yes, I know Cheeri0s exists in Legacy, but in Modern, you don't have the requisite number of 0s to play it. Glimpse is a build-around-me card, and if you don't have enough creatures that cost literally or effectively 0 mana, it's useless.
DD: This was eventually unbanned in Overextended. The reasoning was that the other half of the DD deck (Thopter Sword) was banned, so it could come off. Thespian's Stage might change things, though. It could fit into a deck with Knight of the Reliquary as a random kill combo, kind of like Pod. Is this too powerful? Who knows.
Song: It most definitely does not belong on the banned list. Swan Song stops literally everything that Storm can do, and more than a few other combos as well, like Twin and Scapeshift. Couple that with BG playing 6-8 maindeck grave hate now, and Storm deserves a little something.
Nacatl: Yeah, it could come off. I'm OK with an aggro deck that wins with pure 1-drop efficiency. I'd also like to point out once again that GSZ, a 4-of in Team CFB's PT Philadelphia Counter Cat Zoo deck, is banned.
I am wondering what Elfball deck you are running, because Elfball went off more regularly before turn 4 then Dredge ever did. Not to mention Elfball usually had at least 3 different ways to win before turn 4.
Glimpse is elves cantrip. One that if resolves, usually is game over that turn. Hence why in over extended, most elf decks were 4-0, 3-1.
I am glad some have figured out how fast Dredge can be.
There's a big difference between:
1) casting a whole bunch of Elves on turn 3 and having to wait until turn 4 to attack for the win
2) reanimating Iona on turn 3, effectively locking your opponent out of the game on the same turn
3) reanimating Flame-Kin Zealot on turn 3 with a bunch of Zombie tokens and swinging on the same turn for the win
You can't win on turn 3 with Elves unless you manage to hardcast Emrakul/Hoof, or get an absolutely insane Glimpse + Druid + double Sentinel draw by turn 2.
I also have a very difficult time reconciling "any deck can play 3+ colors" and "limits diversity". Would it somehow limit diversity less if your only reasonable choices are 1 or 2 colors? That seems counter-intuitive.
Some grave based decks can live through grave hate, and if grave hate did not exist, people would probably playing only grave based startegies. The same could be said about 3-4 color decks, they could still live through some multicolor hate. Right now there is little to no incentive to play 1-2, Why play monocolor when you can splash a second color?
As Squirrel Token said, even burn is running 3 colors. Why play mono-red if i can go Dega and play DRS, Bob, Boros Charm, Helix? If there was some better non-basic punishment, the answer could be "because if you do you don't have to face [insert here the strong hate cards]". The people would make the choice between high risk/reward or the more safe route.
Currently some decks are just reward/reward. Low risk involved.
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How would price of progress or burning earth help fight against the fixing of manabases via Deathrite Shaman & Birds any more than blood moon would? And Skyshroud Elite? I don't think Kird Ape would punish anybody for playing greedy manabases.
This is just another reason why deathrite is a problem in the format. Birds of paradise has an actual drawback in being a rainbow mana producer, as it's a 0/1 that doesn't actually do much on it's own, and is a terrible topdeck. I would highly doubt you would see 4 color decks without the presence of Deathrite shaman. If you'll notice, just about every 4 color deck in the format plays deathrite.. which I don't believe is a coincidence.
Price of progress would just present a much larger problem to the format than it would solve. It would also 100% invalidate any deck that wants to play more than 3 lands, as it would end up being a 2 mana 6-10+ damage burn spell against decks like UWR control, UW control, etc etc. It's important to consider that allied color decks can't afford not to play a high volume of nonbasic lands as there are zero ally colored fetches in the format. I don't think it's a good idea to punish 2 color allied color decks in the format.
As for tectonic edge, the only problem is that it can't stop the turn 3 Karn from RG tron. Outside that, it's a lot stronger than most people give it credit for. It's at least 50% of the reason why many of the "jund" decks are going straight black/green right now, since it's a very strong card against more greedy manabases, and helps against tron when they don't have the turn 3 Karn coming down.
Do you have a decklist that uses ThopterSword that is any good in Modern?
I am not disputing that it could be unbanned, my testing indicates that its a lot closer to the grave-troll-do-nothing than many people think. I'd love to see a ThopterSword deck that has reasonable matchups vs Jund/Pod/Tron.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I really like this analysis with regard to Price of Progress and the lack of allied fetchlands in the format. I think that's a really important point that makes it much more complex than to say that reprinting Price will solve the multi-color mana base "problem" (though I'm not at all sure that it's actually a problem).
I have a minor quibble with the DRS analysis though. It's true that it's not a coincidence that most four-color decks play DRS. It's because four-color decks need to play mana dorks for fixing. Most of them also play Birds of Paradise, and no one's complaining about that card. While it's nice that it has an upside, DRS would at least have a chance of being played in all of these decks even if it did no more than replicate Birds as a 1/2 non-flyer.
This does not change anything that you say about whether DRS is too good, but sometimes the reason why a mana dork is played in a 4-color deck is because 4-color decks need mana dorks that can produce 4 colors of mana.
GBW Melira Pod WBG
BW Tokens WB
This seems to overstate the presence of 4 colored decks in Modern. There are only two that are competitive in any degree: Kiki Pod and Ajundi. Kiki Pod prefers Birds because a) DRS is more unreliable, b) you feel bad when you convert a DRS into something higher up the chain, c) you aren't using the best ability (life-loss), and d) Kiki Pod doesn't grind out the game like Melira Pod, which takes extra advantage of DRS/Township/etc. Ajundi prefers DRS because it can use the life-loss mode on the dork and because it gives the deck added reach, all on top of mana fixing. Otherwise, there aren't a lot of decks who choose between one or the other.
If we have 1 shell that is over powering the field, we dont need to help all the other shells to raise the power level, we need to cut back the power of the dominate shell to the other shells.
If we had multiple shells and some were lacking, I would agree to help those lacking, but we clearly have one heads and shoulders above the rest. That one needs to be nerfed.
One thing I will say on this point is that MTGO tends to be a poor reflection of a deck's actual strength, but a very good reflection of its recent performance at professional events. Whenever a deck wins or does particularly well at a big event like a GP, it's all over MTGO for the next few weeks. In part, that's because it's probably a good deck. But it's also overrepresented because most players on MTGO want to win dailies and no brew or innovate (there is very little incentive to do that on MTGO). So just because Jund appears to be completely out of control online, and boy does it appear that way, doesn't mean the deck is actually out of control. We'll need to see GP Brisbane and GP Antwerp to know for sure.
Although that said, Jund would not need to make up more than half of the Top 16 for us to realize it's too broken. If GBx sends even 3 representatives to the Top 8 of both events, that's too much in my books, especially if the MTGO prevalence doesn't go down as well.
Not at the moment I have a tezzeret shell that runs foundry for value atm
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
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Hermit Druid Combo:
People don't uses Birds and shaman in decks without heavy non-basic land bases. The problem is Moon is useless against someone with bird/DRS in play, the same for land destruction hate.
But, let's use Price of Progress as a example, it punishes them no matter if they have non-land fixes such as creatures or artifacts, if they have many non-basic lands in play, they will be punished.
Both Price of Progress and Skyshroud Elite were just example of a type of card that could help. I know that PoP itself would just totally screw modern, and that Skyshroud Elite would make nothing as it is.
But cards like them should be the refence for what wizards needs to do to fight against this greedy colors fest. They just need to balance them to a level that they are not just bad as Anathemancer.
. Jund can play with 3 lands and DRS and Tectonic simply feeds DRS. Tectonic is not very good against mana fixing, being more useful against man-lands and tron (unless they Turn 3 karn)
it is very hard to. its strength is spread out over multiple cards. they won't ban goyf or bob and banning thoughtseize and inquisition just makes the ban list look more ridiculous than it is already. DRS (the card that should have been banned in the first place) and liliana are the other cards.
but like i said, i'd rather they power up other shells (either through unbanning or printing better things) than ban things. since banning things only leads to a new "best shell" until we're playing vanilla.format.
But...but...4-color Gifts!
Seriously though, my point may have been slightly moot. As I said right before that, I don't exactly think that the fact that three- and four-color decks exist is a problem, particularly given the number of them, and I don't think that DRS is railed against because it's a mana dork. If it was just a mana dork no one would care.
GBW Melira Pod WBG
BW Tokens WB
Nobody is complaining about birds because birds has drawbacks. Birds of paradise is terrible any time you draw it after turn 1 since you don't need the mana acceleration at that point.
Deathrite shaman on the other hand is a birds of paradise early on in the game, but then turns into a combination of Grim Lavamancer, Withered Wretch, and a life-gainer when you draw it after turn 1. And for whatever reason, it's a 1/2 on top of everything, so you can't play cards like Cunning Sparkmage which have historically been strong against decks that play lots of x'1 creatures.
When a deck plays against deathrite, it's a must-answer threat at any point of the game as it will kill the opponent if not answered.
You know, this is a good point. I keep seeing people complaining about the "greedy manabases" in Modern, and I have to say... so what? Why is that a problem?
People always talk about how the format needs better nonbasic hate, but I really haven't seen any good reason as to why it does.
Because, right now the BG shell can splash 1 color with no loss at all and can even splash 2 and still be tier 1. This makes it really hard to do unbans and print cards to enable new archetypes because many decks, especially BGx, will just changed the x and splash a different color.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That's not an argument for nonbasic hate. That's at best an argument that BGx is too good, and the actual problematic cards there are Deathrite Shaman and Liliana.
Aggro is weak because the three most played removal spells are Bolt Helix and Abrupt Decay. Three incredibly efficient removal spells that nuke every aggressive threat (sans goyf for the lightning based removal).
As said earlier, the two stupidest bans WotC could make would be fetchlands and Goyf. Deathrits shaman is also a very poor option for a ban. The best possible thing for this format is to unban or print cards that work against midrange strategies. Sword of the Meek and Nacatl simultaneously, to boost both aggro and control. ThopterSword is amazing against midrange, while not being unbeatable, due to the massive graveyard hate available, often mainboard in the form of scooze
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Quotes:
So, I'd just "bite the bullet" and let a little power creep into Modern.
I don't know about every one else but I just find it annoying that any deck can play 3+ colors with no problems. There's just really no reason to run a 1-2 color deck right now which limits diversity and turns every deck into a goodstuff deck. It would be nice to see more decks that focus on synergy rather than just packing in all the staples of the format. I think it's bad when even burn is running 3-4 colors. A monored burn deck with price of progress and/or blood moon would make players think more about their manabase and not get too greedy.
To be honest I can't ever see this coming off. There are already three combos that are overwhelmingly powerful in creature matchups: Punishing Grove, Thopter Sword, and Jitte + creature. Guess what? They're all banned.
DR: The "maindeck grave hate" you speak of is basically DRS and Ooze from the BG shell. Do you think all the other decks that aren't BG will be able to cope with DR unbanned? I don't. I tested an unmodified, three-year old Extended Dredge deck and it goldfished T3 kills more often than Epic Experiment Storm.
Glimpse: To be honest, I find the idea that Elves can kill on T3 consistently laughable.
Strike one: Elves cannot play cantrips, so naturally you're not as consistent as Storm, Eggs, Twin or Scapeshift. You have to play a large number of mana dorks costing G in that deck, so you simply don't have space for cantrips or nongreen sources. Without cantrips, your chance of drawing that oh-so-powerful Glimpse also drops.
Strike two: Green Sun's Zenith is banned. You can only combo off with Elves if you have Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel. Without GSZ, you can't find the missing half as consistently.
Strike three: It's a creature-based combo. This isn't like DR, where only one deck packs 6 maindeck hate for it. All the top decks at the moment are extremely well-suited to beat it. RDW and UWR are full of Bolts (UWR even has Electrolyze, a massive beating). Scapeshift and RG Tron have sweepers costing less than 4 mana.
There aren't any other decks that can use Glimpse. Yes, I know Cheeri0s exists in Legacy, but in Modern, you don't have the requisite number of 0s to play it. Glimpse is a build-around-me card, and if you don't have enough creatures that cost literally or effectively 0 mana, it's useless.
DD: This was eventually unbanned in Overextended. The reasoning was that the other half of the DD deck (Thopter Sword) was banned, so it could come off.
Thespian's Stage might change things, though. It could fit into a deck with Knight of the Reliquary as a random kill combo, kind of like Pod. Is this too powerful? Who knows.
Song: It most definitely does not belong on the banned list. Swan Song stops literally everything that Storm can do, and more than a few other combos as well, like Twin and Scapeshift. Couple that with BG playing 6-8 maindeck grave hate now, and Storm deserves a little something.
Nacatl: Yeah, it could come off. I'm OK with an aggro deck that wins with pure 1-drop efficiency. I'd also like to point out once again that GSZ, a 4-of in Team CFB's PT Philadelphia Counter Cat Zoo deck, is banned.
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Big Johnny.
BGx is just a goodstuff deck with some of the best modern cards, and will still be even if it have any of the cards banned.
BGx alone is strong, but is not oppressive, the problem is that BGx can easily splash to gain access of resources that BG alone don't have with no punishment. So no matter what they ban (DRS, Goyf, Bob, Lily...), the core will be still solid, and any cheap goodstuff card printed can be added to it, even if it not B or G.
This just simply isn't the state of Modern right now. BGx decks and UWR decks aren't terribly synergistic, but almost everything else is. Tron? Affinity? Pod? Twin? Seriously, one of the best cards in the deck that just keeps winning is Orzhov Pontiff. Goodstuff isn't a requirement, and this sudden incoherent and irrational crusade against Jund doesn't change that.
I also have a very difficult time reconciling "any deck can play 3+ colors" and "limits diversity". Would it somehow limit diversity less if your only reasonable choices are 1 or 2 colors? That seems counter-intuitive.
First of all, I agree with everything you say. I just want to point out that, right or not, Wizards seems to have fixated on "we don't want turn 3 decks, even if they can only go turn 3 5% of the time." By the time Seething Song was banned, Storm was already extremely inconsistent on getting a turn 3 win. But it could. It might. It got banned. Seriously, if not for the printing of Scavenging Ooze I'd have expected Fury of the Horde to be banned already, and I wouldn't have been shocked to have seen it get banned a couple of weeks ago anyway. No one plays it, but sometimes it can win on turn 2.
That mindset seems irrational to me too, the zero tolerance on before-the-fourth-turn. But it is what it is.
GBW Melira Pod WBG
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I am wondering what Elfball deck you are running, because Elfball went off more regularly before turn 4 then Dredge ever did. Not to mention Elfball usually had at least 3 different ways to win before turn 4.
Glimpse is elves cantrip. One that if resolves, usually is game over that turn. Hence why in over extended, most elf decks were 4-0, 3-1.
I am glad some have figured out how fast Dredge can be.
1) casting a whole bunch of Elves on turn 3 and having to wait until turn 4 to attack for the win
2) reanimating Iona on turn 3, effectively locking your opponent out of the game on the same turn
3) reanimating Flame-Kin Zealot on turn 3 with a bunch of Zombie tokens and swinging on the same turn for the win
You can't win on turn 3 with Elves unless you manage to hardcast Emrakul/Hoof, or get an absolutely insane Glimpse + Druid + double Sentinel draw by turn 2.
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Big Johnny.
As Squirrel Token said, even burn is running 3 colors. Why play mono-red if i can go Dega and play DRS, Bob, Boros Charm, Helix? If there was some better non-basic punishment, the answer could be "because if you do you don't have to face [insert here the strong hate cards]". The people would make the choice between high risk/reward or the more safe route.
Currently some decks are just reward/reward. Low risk involved.