Over in the Theros spoiler thread we've been talking about the recently-spoiled cycle of Nymphs with the Bestow mechanic. And it got me thinking: how many enchantments does a cube have to include before cards like Auramancer, Aura Gnarlid, and Ethereal Armor become really good?
Posting it here because the question seems more like a matter of general cube-crafting theory than anything specific to just Theros.
Over in the Theros spoiler thread we've been talking about the recently-spoiled cycle of Nymphs with the Bestow mechanic. And it got me thinking: how many enchantments does a cube have to include before cards like Auramancer, Aura Gnarlid, and Ethereal Armor become really good?
Posting it here because the question seems more like a matter of general cube-crafting theory than anything specific to just Theros.
I run Auramancer, but I am not really qualified to comment on this, as I run it due to it being my pet card (favourite artwork in the history of the game), and it is solid but unspectacular. I would say that the "average" pauper cube would need maybe 7 or 8 more good enchantments before it became a widely playable card (can easily be supported if you add a sub theme, but not worth it for a normal cube at the moment, at least in my opinion).
Over in the Theros spoiler thread we've been talking about the recently-spoiled cycle of Nymphs with the Bestow mechanic. And it got me thinking: how many enchantments does a cube have to include before cards like Auramancer, Aura Gnarlid, and Ethereal Armor become really good?
Posting it here because the question seems more like a matter of general cube-crafting theory than anything specific to just Theros.
Personally I think Aura Gnarlid is too good not to run and support. It really doesn't take that much to support him IMO especially if you have a few of the green enchant land cards.
I run Auramancer, but I am not really qualified to comment on this, as I run it due to it being my pet card (favourite artwork in the history of the game), and it is solid but unspectacular. I would say that the "average" pauper cube would need maybe 7 or 8 more good enchantments before it became a widely playable card (can easily be supported if you add a sub theme, but not worth it for a normal cube at the moment, at least in my opinion).
Neat. I currently run 29 enchantments out of 360 cards, including the full Zendikon cycle and a few other land auras that don't see much play in other cubes as part of my land-management theme. After adding a few Bestow Nymphs, would you say that's enough to make Auramancer strong?
Personally I think Aura Gnarlid is too good not to run and support. It really doesn't take that much to support him IMO especially if you have a few of the green enchant land cards.
I've made great experiences with the Gnarlid. In a GW deck I often have between 4 and 6 auras (Pacifism-like stuff counts aswell) and with at least one of them the Gnarlid is already an evasive 3/3 for cc3. Even stuff like Abundant Growth and Utopia Sprawl are important.
OK, I'm sold on the Aura Gnarlid. I'll start looking for room to test it.
Neat. I currently run 29 enchantments out of 360 cards, including the full Zendikon cycle and a few other land auras that don't see much play in other cubes as part of my land-management theme. After adding a few Bestow Nymphs, would you say that's enough to make Auramancer strong?
I run 30 enchantments in general, of which only 2 are zendikons (so 28 don't return to hand on their own). With that many, I would still want another 7 or 8 auras, mainly centralised in Bant or maybe Naya colours, but definitely Selesnya, before I consider Auramancer more than a pet card for my cube.
I've been running Auramancer for a while, and I love it. I'm running a 450 but it's still one of those situational draft cards that could potentially give you a great 2 for 1 advantage. Fantastic in the correct shell.
The Gnarlid is one of the best cards for the Auras/enchantments theme. It may be good enough already to run, but I'm not confident to do that until I get more Auras in there.
All 4 of those cards provide a surprisingly robust core for the Aura deck as often the other pieces are already in a cube. It is a surprisingly low risk high reward strategy for anyone not already doing it in both cube construction and drafting. Then all that is needed is to add a couple of extra spicy auras as you have (arguably) the strongest draftable deck
Has anyone else been playing with Beetleform Mage. I'm really impressed with how good it is.
Has anyone else been playing with Beetleform Mage. I'm really impressed with how good it is.
I'm thinking of cutting Drakewing Krasis for it. What do you guys think?
Also I would like to hear some opinions about supporting Delver-themed decks in cube. Personally I am running the little bug, and supporting it with bounce/tap (UW Fliers) or bolts and Kiln Fiend(UR).
Also I would like to hear some opinions about supporting Delver-themed decks in cube. Personally I am running the little bug, and supporting it with bounce/tap (UW Fliers) or bolts and Kiln Fiend(UR).
I believe you need to look at UR for that. Nivix Cyclops, Wee Dragonauts, Kiln Fiend, and probably as many spell return options, or buyback, as you can agree to.
It does lock your UR section into a rut, but since GW can be Token based, or BG Graveyard based.. you could even theme out each of your 10 'Guild' sections to each have a sub-theme
I realised a big problem in my cube. I have too less creatures. Actually only about 50% of my cube are creatures. Followed by this problem I can often see great control-heavy decks, that are still loosing the game, because they having nothing to block or attack and their few creatures get removed, because other decks have much removal aswell.
Has anyone else had this problem aswell?
Only green (45/60) and white (38/60) got an Ok amount of creatures, but the other colors need more.
I'm going to start reorganizing my cube with black. I'm going to cut removal spells, that are low on the curve, like Vendetta, Disfigure, Dead Weight and maybe even Tragic Slip, because a deck shouldn't curve with removal spells, but creatures instead. Another point is, that the job of removal should mainly be to get rid of threats and not everything you could kill. This is the reason, why I'll keep Eyeblight's Ending and Rend Flesh above these.
Yeah, the early incarnations of my cube were a little light too, and it's definitely easy to go overboard with the removal in pauper. I think I've finally hit a good creature/noncreature balance but I'm still trimming removal to make room for other cool things like combat tricks and auras.
Regarding your cc4 and cc5 options: the best pick in each slot depends on what archetypes you want to support. Bloodhunter Bat supports the Orzhov extortion racket, but Mortis Dogs might be better for pure B/x aggro. Weed-Pruner Poplar is a good answer to G/W token spam, but if that hasn't been a problem in your format then Rotting Legion or Pewter Golem might be better finishers.
Anarchist: I think it falls into the 'what pick is the card?" category.
And as for the experimentals listed previously, I feel they need to to be evaluated as 'are they better than ______?" usually in the same cost area.
Example: Grimclaw Bats
I love the card an have him in my 360->450 expansion. However in a 360 environment he is simply never as good as the other 1B evasive beaters that do not need as much mana. I like it b/c during Mirrodin-Daarksteel draft I went 4-0 with 3 of them in a deck and it was strictly on the premise that I beat people down too fast consistently.
I really don't know if it's right that 21 out of 22 of red's spells are removal though, I suppose the problem is that in red commons there's not many other interesting effects?
Where have you been for the past few sets, man? Did you miss the addition of looting to red's portfolio? Looting is awesome even if you aren't using it to set up flashback or threshold or Exhume. Card filtering is almost as good as proper card advantage; nothing feels quite as good as pitching a late-game land or an early-game fatty to draw gas. Faithless Looting was easily the best common in all of Dark Ascension. Volcanon mentioned Dangerous Wager from AVR, but I prefer Wild Guess myself -- it did good work for me at the Magic Celebration event.
Red also has a blocker-denial theme that can give aggro decks a different way to reach for the win. Ruthless Invasion and Nightbird's Clutches are probably the best of these. Act of Treason and similar effects (Traitorous Instinct, Traitorous Blood) are better in limited formats with bigger bombs than pauper typically drops, but can play very well with any creature-sacrifice effects you may have.
On the Aura front, Madcap Skills works well enough in conjunction with blocker-denial and burn. Lightning Talons also turns anything into a huge hard-to-block threat that makes a great blocker itself.
PS to Volcanon: The card you're thinking of is Brute Force. And yes, it is good. It's kind of like Mana Tithe in that it catches many players off-guard; they don't expect that kind of combat trick from red.
Ichor Slick - is a card many are only now seeing the true beauty of. It can often act like a Pauper Annihilate. The versatility is what makes it awesome.
Burrenton Bombardiers - I swear by them. Many do include them because they are, like above, versatile. They are a fine top deck and an on-curve play that is not the greatest, but will apply pressure all the same
Madcap Skills - I will equate it to Armadillo Cloak; the risk is worth it. If it sticks, you probably can turn the game around, or finish it off.
Faithless Looting - Technically card disadvantage. But red does not get draw cheaply, and this in the end is great in almost any style of deck. Control plays it later, aggro play it whenever they have extra mana, and tempo uses it to constantly have better cards in hand.
Wild Guess - Looks like Looting, but the RR makes it very hard to splash and have available when the time is needed. I would like to fit it in, but not able to in a 360, maybe a 540 (or 450).
Dangerous Wager - Only aggro really likes this because they can empty quickly. Of the 3 'draw spells', this one is they least diverse in the archetypes that can play it. Skill Tester.
Citanul Woodreaders - Midrange loves these. They really do not have a true home otherwise. i will likely never take them out because they can be tabled, and still find a place in a main deck.
Thornweald Archer - Was replaced by Ambush Viper, and I have tried to fit it back in as a Viper #2, but have trouble justifying what seems like a 1-shot blocker in green. Yes, aggro can play them, but they really are valued for their 'removal' ability. Some may argue that could be pseudo-evasion, but it is up to your community to decide if their needs to be a 2nd Viper.
Crocanura - I feel is a deceptively strong pick for any deck with green in its two primary colors. It can be a turn earlier Giant Spider, that has a real chance of becoming a 3/5 in most midrange decks. Or it can be an odd choice for aggro, that should come down on turn 3 unless you have a 3/x play. It really does a whole lot, but never looks the part. It 'should' find a place, but how many reach guys do you need? And if you view it as just an Evolve guy, then there are other choices. But, this fights Trusted Forcemage for a home, usually losing in cuts. 3cc is a clogged spot. 6/10 with a lean towards 6.5
Grazing Gladeheart - 2 yrs ago this was my #2 pick for green; right below Blastoderm. I have loved it since Zen Pre. It may sledom attack but can average 4-10 life a game as many do not want to kill it with a spell, and it will not die to a pinger. It makes midrange/ramp live longer and thus allows the strategy to thrive.
Whispersilk Cloak - Expensive, but it will 'lights out' an opponent who leaves you the time to equip it. You never feel good rushing it out there because it is a lot of mana. But you always feel awesome when you equip it to 3+ power.
-Sidenote- Goblin War Drum - Falls into the 'is it worth a slot?' category. Yes it can end games, but when is it a great pick? Aggro has it for their stalled out board, Tempo CAN use it to force through early damage. But control never wants it, and IMO, Midrange needs to be putting out bodies or moving towards their 'primetime' (mid-late game).
Faithless Looting is just bad and far from cubeable. You never want to cast it if your hand is good. You never want to cast it early in the game, because you don't know yet what cards you need and what you can get rid of.
So, like, you have two mountains and don't need any more land. Looting turns those into things that aren't mountains. You can flash it back for even more not useless draws. In a color with almost no way to get any card advantage or even card quality aside from cycling and cantrips.
Faithless Looting is fine, and actual looting is unique enough in red that it's worth running. It's not great because sometimes you have to discard good stuff, but even then the stuff you're keeping is even better since you draw before discarding. And there are a ton of situations where you can replace dead cards (or dead draws) with useful draws. It's also one of the few cards in red that makes questionable opening hands keepable. All of that makes it one of the cards I don't anticipate cutting any time soon.
I've never really liked Faithless Looting either. Without Flashback or other graveyard based effects to abuse with the discard, I don't see it having much use. People have picked it before with the mindset of card quality and whatnot, but it doesn't really seem to pan out.
I also think it's a trap for newer players to cube. The see Faithless Looting and think there's a graveyard theme in the cube and Pauper doesn't really lend itself to that.
Um, faithless looting has flashback.
It's pauper, there's nothing much you can do with the yard anyway.
I understand why ppl do noy like Looting. I disagree though.
Faithless is up to a 4 shot Looter effect without a fragile body. And, the point is that you can play it in any style deck with red. It is not a top pick, but I am not unhappy to see it if I am looking for playables in a pack.
You play it when you need cards; want new cards; or are searching for a specific card.
During standard, you usually saw it played asap, which was fine for Reanimator strategies. BUt the control decks ran fewer Lootings, and got just as much, if not mopre value out of their Lootings. They waited till they needed it. If their hand was good, then they may never play it. But it you had a half decent hand, it fixed flooding, missing lands #5+, etc.
I think that are lot of people are kind of sad, that the last tries of wizards to make red looters have all failed. Rummaging Goblin, Viashino Racketeer and Academy Raider have simply all been overcosted by 1 compared to the blue pendants.
The only exception is the Looting, that is even an upgrade to Careful Study. Just like 'knuckles29' said, it's maybe not a first pick, big everyone likes to have it in his deck.
I think academy raider is still fine. It even has red fear. Looter il-kor was/was amazingsauce. Raider, *can* block, though. It's also a 'may' while looter is a must, which means you don't have to be in a situation of pitching a good card from a hand of only good cards.
Red fear means it can push through damage with a color that doesn't have much evasion.
I was super excited when looting came out, but now I don't run it at all. It shines in decks that can make use of discarding cards and has seen play across almost all constructed formats for that reason, but that just isn't the case in pauper cube. Unfortunately, it just isn't good enough.
Posting it here because the question seems more like a matter of general cube-crafting theory than anything specific to just Theros.
I run Auramancer, but I am not really qualified to comment on this, as I run it due to it being my pet card (favourite artwork in the history of the game), and it is solid but unspectacular. I would say that the "average" pauper cube would need maybe 7 or 8 more good enchantments before it became a widely playable card (can easily be supported if you add a sub theme, but not worth it for a normal cube at the moment, at least in my opinion).
Personally I think Aura Gnarlid is too good not to run and support. It really doesn't take that much to support him IMO especially if you have a few of the green enchant land cards.
Neat. I currently run 29 enchantments out of 360 cards, including the full Zendikon cycle and a few other land auras that don't see much play in other cubes as part of my land-management theme. After adding a few Bestow Nymphs, would you say that's enough to make Auramancer strong?
OK, I'm sold on the Aura Gnarlid. I'll start looking for room to test it.
I run 30 enchantments in general, of which only 2 are zendikons (so 28 don't return to hand on their own). With that many, I would still want another 7 or 8 auras, mainly centralised in Bant or maybe Naya colours, but definitely Selesnya, before I consider Auramancer more than a pet card for my cube.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
All 4 of those cards provide a surprisingly robust core for the Aura deck as often the other pieces are already in a cube. It is a surprisingly low risk high reward strategy for anyone not already doing it in both cube construction and drafting. Then all that is needed is to add a couple of extra spicy auras as you have (arguably) the strongest draftable deck
Has anyone else been playing with Beetleform Mage. I'm really impressed with how good it is.
I'm thinking of cutting Drakewing Krasis for it. What do you guys think?
Also I would like to hear some opinions about supporting Delver-themed decks in cube. Personally I am running the little bug, and supporting it with bounce/tap (UW Fliers) or bolts and Kiln Fiend(UR).
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/17954
I believe you need to look at UR for that. Nivix Cyclops, Wee Dragonauts, Kiln Fiend, and probably as many spell return options, or buyback, as you can agree to.
It does lock your UR section into a rut, but since GW can be Token based, or BG Graveyard based.. you could even theme out each of your 10 'Guild' sections to each have a sub-theme
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
Yeah, the early incarnations of my cube were a little light too, and it's definitely easy to go overboard with the removal in pauper. I think I've finally hit a good creature/noncreature balance but I'm still trimming removal to make room for other cool things like combat tricks and auras.
Regarding your cc4 and cc5 options: the best pick in each slot depends on what archetypes you want to support. Bloodhunter Bat supports the Orzhov extortion racket, but Mortis Dogs might be better for pure B/x aggro. Weed-Pruner Poplar is a good answer to G/W token spam, but if that hasn't been a problem in your format then Rotting Legion or Pewter Golem might be better finishers.
I agree. I think that sometimes if you aren't careful the best of intentions can quickly turn to eclecticism.
And as for the experimentals listed previously, I feel they need to to be evaluated as 'are they better than ______?" usually in the same cost area.
Example: Grimclaw Bats
I love the card an have him in my 360->450 expansion. However in a 360 environment he is simply never as good as the other 1B evasive beaters that do not need as much mana. I like it b/c during Mirrodin-Daarksteel draft I went 4-0 with 3 of them in a deck and it was strictly on the premise that I beat people down too fast consistently.
Game-Trail Changeling is only great if you want the Changeling text, otherwise the Stampeding Rhino is a strict upgrade, and even that got booted from my cube then we had Rubbleback Rhino, Imperiosaur and the other recent boon of green fatties.
Being different is the best part about cube, but do not forgo the superior, universal, options for the sake of being different.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
(which to be more explicit, is what I call eclecticism)
With tribal interactions they are amazesauce.
Red has some buff spells, like brute strength.
You could play the flash red guys. Many of those are good.
Where have you been for the past few sets, man? Did you miss the addition of looting to red's portfolio? Looting is awesome even if you aren't using it to set up flashback or threshold or Exhume. Card filtering is almost as good as proper card advantage; nothing feels quite as good as pitching a late-game land or an early-game fatty to draw gas. Faithless Looting was easily the best common in all of Dark Ascension. Volcanon mentioned Dangerous Wager from AVR, but I prefer Wild Guess myself -- it did good work for me at the Magic Celebration event.
Red also has a blocker-denial theme that can give aggro decks a different way to reach for the win. Ruthless Invasion and Nightbird's Clutches are probably the best of these. Act of Treason and similar effects (Traitorous Instinct, Traitorous Blood) are better in limited formats with bigger bombs than pauper typically drops, but can play very well with any creature-sacrifice effects you may have.
On the Aura front, Madcap Skills works well enough in conjunction with blocker-denial and burn. Lightning Talons also turns anything into a huge hard-to-block threat that makes a great blocker itself.
PS to Volcanon: The card you're thinking of is Brute Force. And yes, it is good. It's kind of like Mana Tithe in that it catches many players off-guard; they don't expect that kind of combat trick from red.
Burrenton Bombardiers - I swear by them. Many do include them because they are, like above, versatile. They are a fine top deck and an on-curve play that is not the greatest, but will apply pressure all the same
Madcap Skills - I will equate it to Armadillo Cloak; the risk is worth it. If it sticks, you probably can turn the game around, or finish it off.
Faithless Looting - Technically card disadvantage. But red does not get draw cheaply, and this in the end is great in almost any style of deck. Control plays it later, aggro play it whenever they have extra mana, and tempo uses it to constantly have better cards in hand.
Wild Guess - Looks like Looting, but the RR makes it very hard to splash and have available when the time is needed. I would like to fit it in, but not able to in a 360, maybe a 540 (or 450).
Dangerous Wager - Only aggro really likes this because they can empty quickly. Of the 3 'draw spells', this one is they least diverse in the archetypes that can play it. Skill Tester.
Citanul Woodreaders - Midrange loves these. They really do not have a true home otherwise. i will likely never take them out because they can be tabled, and still find a place in a main deck.
Thornweald Archer - Was replaced by Ambush Viper, and I have tried to fit it back in as a Viper #2, but have trouble justifying what seems like a 1-shot blocker in green. Yes, aggro can play them, but they really are valued for their 'removal' ability. Some may argue that could be pseudo-evasion, but it is up to your community to decide if their needs to be a 2nd Viper.
Crocanura - I feel is a deceptively strong pick for any deck with green in its two primary colors. It can be a turn earlier Giant Spider, that has a real chance of becoming a 3/5 in most midrange decks. Or it can be an odd choice for aggro, that should come down on turn 3 unless you have a 3/x play. It really does a whole lot, but never looks the part. It 'should' find a place, but how many reach guys do you need? And if you view it as just an Evolve guy, then there are other choices. But, this fights Trusted Forcemage for a home, usually losing in cuts. 3cc is a clogged spot. 6/10 with a lean towards 6.5
Grazing Gladeheart - 2 yrs ago this was my #2 pick for green; right below Blastoderm. I have loved it since Zen Pre. It may sledom attack but can average 4-10 life a game as many do not want to kill it with a spell, and it will not die to a pinger. It makes midrange/ramp live longer and thus allows the strategy to thrive.
Whispersilk Cloak - Expensive, but it will 'lights out' an opponent who leaves you the time to equip it. You never feel good rushing it out there because it is a lot of mana. But you always feel awesome when you equip it to 3+ power.
-Sidenote-
Goblin War Drum - Falls into the 'is it worth a slot?' category. Yes it can end games, but when is it a great pick? Aggro has it for their stalled out board, Tempo CAN use it to force through early damage. But control never wants it, and IMO, Midrange needs to be putting out bodies or moving towards their 'primetime' (mid-late game).
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
So, like, you have two mountains and don't need any more land. Looting turns those into things that aren't mountains. You can flash it back for even more not useless draws. In a color with almost no way to get any card advantage or even card quality aside from cycling and cantrips.
Um, faithless looting has flashback.
It's pauper, there's nothing much you can do with the yard anyway.
Faithless is up to a 4 shot Looter effect without a fragile body. And, the point is that you can play it in any style deck with red. It is not a top pick, but I am not unhappy to see it if I am looking for playables in a pack.
You play it when you need cards; want new cards; or are searching for a specific card.
During standard, you usually saw it played asap, which was fine for Reanimator strategies. BUt the control decks ran fewer Lootings, and got just as much, if not mopre value out of their Lootings. They waited till they needed it. If their hand was good, then they may never play it. But it you had a half decent hand, it fixed flooding, missing lands #5+, etc.
I feel it adds too much to not have it in a cube.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
I think academy raider is still fine. It even has red fear. Looter il-kor was/was amazingsauce. Raider, *can* block, though. It's also a 'may' while looter is a must, which means you don't have to be in a situation of pitching a good card from a hand of only good cards.
Red fear means it can push through damage with a color that doesn't have much evasion.
Draft it on Cubetutor!