So you have to activate the mutavault precombat in order to pump the rat right. Like you cant declare an attack, wait for blockers, and then activate the muta/pump can you? I understand what you're saying but that also subtracts 2 mana from the mana pool if you want to activate mutavault and swing with the rats too right? Guess Ill have to play with them more
So you have to activate the mutavault precombat in order to pump the rat right. Like you cant declare an attack, wait for blockers, and then activate the muta/pump can you? I understand what you're saying but that also subtracts 2 mana from the mana pool if you want to activate mutavault and swing with the rats too right? Guess Ill have to play with them more
Negative. You can activate mutavault's ability as a response to declared blockers P/T. Because Mutavault when activated as a creature gains all creature types (including Rat), Pack Rat gets its bonus for another rat on the board. Mutavault takes only 1 to activate, so you need only leave that open to activate.
You can activate Mutavault at any time, thus pump your rat. It would like playing Giant growth after blocker are declared. You would be surprised how often I do that with 2-3 rats in play to mess up opponent blocking strategies.
But if you swing with a rat as a 1/1 they block with a 1/1 you can activate the mutavault in response and make it a 2/2 is what you're saying? How often would you do that over just swinging with both though for the possible 4 damage
But if you swing with a rat as a 1/1 they block with a 1/1 you can activate the mutavault in response and make it a 2/2 is what you're saying? How often would you do that over just swinging with both though for the possible 4 damage
That is correct. It is impossible to provide a % on how often this occurs. It's strictly situational based upon the board state. If I am in a position to be aggressive; i.e. I've used my removal to clear their board, then by all means. If the board is stagnant with creatures, I wouldn't necessarily gain any advantage.
Alrighty, Friday (let me know if I murdered that).
You nailed it - to the wall.
Why the planes walker. I know it's mono black but is she really worth a spot? I know she's black and a planes walker, that's cool and she could be good if you wanted to ramp into something but she's weak. Her negative ability can kill something but we are jam packed full of removal and a 4 cmc kill spell is not what we need. I'd rather jam demon, erebos or whip, I just can't see a matchup where she would be needed.
Thanks for understanding
Why the planes walker. I know it's mono black but is she really worth a spot? I know she's black and a planes walker, that's cool and she could be good if you wanted to ramp into something but she's weak. Her negative ability can kill something but we are jam packed full of removal and a 4 cmc kill spell is not what we need. I'd rather jam demon, erebos or whip, I just can't see a matchup where she would be needed.
Thanks for understanding
I actually think Lili isn't bad in the deck--if you have more than 2 Pack Rat MB.
Tutoring up a swamp every turn means you can discard a dead card every turn to make another rat, and improve your draws from UC.
I actually think Lili isn't bad in the deck--if you have more than 2 Pack Rat MB.
Tutoring up a swamp every turn means you can discard a dead card every turn to make another rat, and improve your draws from UC.
Was running lili for 2 weeks and every time I had her in hand I always wished she was a demon or another removal.... Sure tutoring a swamp every turn for pack rat is a positive but you can only do that when you have control of the board. If not then you're just getting a swamp and lili probably dies next turn. IF u have control of the board then it's safe to say underworld connections is sufficient for you to get cards for pack rat
There's a reason pro's don't play her and there is a reason she hasn't shown up in any top eight list. She doesn't do what we are trying to do. There is a reason she is five dollars I stead of thirty. She's cute, I'd hit it, but she isn't helping the team. That's all I'm saying.
Edit-- play four hero downfall-- I lost to a turn two domri getting ult-ed. You lose to that read domri ult it rapes us there is no good reason to run less that four downfall other than not having it because of price jump. Get them and play them the core of the deck is 4 down fall 4 cash seize 4 demon 4 connections and then the gary whip combo
I've also had lots of success with Liliana, side Erebos out and side her in in the MUD match-up, she's one more card advantage engine, extra damage for any creature and the only mono-black card that can kill an active Thassa, all by herself.
She's meaningless in other matches, but untill MUD is less than 30% of my meta I'll keep her in the SB.
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I've also had lots of success with Liliana, side Erebos out and side her in in the MUD match-up, she's one more card advantage engine, extra damage for any creature and the only mono-black card that can kill an active Thassa, all by herself.
She's meaningless in other matches, but untill MUD is less than 30% of my meta I'll keep her in the SB.
Dies to Hero's Downfall, gives no massive advantage, costs 4 mana, and is the worst removal spell in mono black (4 mana) and Devour Flesh kills Thassa activated, all by itself and only costs 2 mana (and a clear board, sadly).
She's also a 4 mana for 3, and dies if you use her X ability when first played. A jank card and shouldn't be used in Mono black, we have much better options.
Dies to Hero's Downfall, gives no massive advantage, costs 4 mana, and is the worst removal spell in mono black (4 mana) and Devour Flesh kills Thassa activated, all by itself and only costs 2 mana (and a clear board, sadly).
She's also a 4 mana for 3, and dies if you use her X ability when first played. A jank card and shouldn't be used in Mono black, we have much better options.
Whatever drones do you play with that would rather sacrifice Thassa than an owl, or run Hero's Downfall in MUD for that matter?
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Whatever drones do you play with that would rather sacrifice Thassa than an owl, or run Hero's Downfall in MUD for that matter?
This thread-primer is devided and conflicted we need unity and understanding that we all want the same,e thing. Mono blAck co tro,l. Post mono black lists with sideboard options . Stop derailing the thread with splash debate. Its good as long as we respect the other decent decks A d build accordingly .
Well I've more or less completed my deck - or at least don't play on making too many changes to it until it's FNM tested. Thanks to the contributors on this thread as it's helped me a great deal with specific card decisions.
My sideboard is still not into form yet but it's coming along. I've only really two more cards to add to the MD: one or two Hero's Downfall and a Thoughtseize.I'm also choosing to not use Desecration Demon although for quite some time I used 4. This is mostly a meta call as he keeps letting me down against mono-blue & red.
Well I've more or less completed my deck - or at least don't play on making too many changes to it until it's FNM tested. Thanks to the contributors on this thread as it's helped me a great deal with specific card decisions.
My sideboard is still not into form yet but it's coming along. I've only really two more cards to add to the MD: one or two Hero's Downfall and a Thoughtseize.I'm also choosing to not use Desecration Demon although for quite some time I used 4. This is mostly a meta call as he keeps letting me down against mono-blue & red.
hmm looks like you're trying to mix in a bit of reanimation to the deck.. well unlike some people in the thread I won't go and say THAT'S STUPID CAUSE IT HAS OTHER COLORS IN IT!
will like to see how the deck plays out cause it's interesting but I do have something to say about your lands though.. 24 lands with 6 colorless in a dual colored deck seems a bit inconsistent.. maybe losing mutavaults for some basics?
A friend of mine have made 5-0 twice at my local store with a MBD variant (last week's FNM and yesterday's local tournaments, both with at least 30 people).
I don't have his current list but as far as i've seen and talked ot him about it, he runs ZERO pack rats MD (2 or 3 SB), 1 MBCorrupt, Read the Bones MD and Underworld Connections on SB and both Lifebane Zombie and Nightveil Specter MD. Also the classic shell of 4 Seize, Garys and Demons. Not sure on his removal suite though.
The store's meta is pretty diverse so i belive this deck performs pretty well in an overall.
Whatever drones do you play with that would rather sacrifice Thassa than an owl, or run Hero's Downfall in MUD for that matter?
I never said the Hero's Downfall was from MUD, it's from Esper/Mirror.
An activated Thassa is easily shut down by removing the devotion, which is CREATURE based and easy for our deck to do.
Liliana is just not worth running. It's a 4 mana plainswalker that generates almost no advantage unless it stays alive for 2-3 turns, and that won't happen very often.
did you consider playing Blood Baron of Vizkopa ? Would be fitting nicely into this Deck. I guess i would kick the Ashen Rider & Abhorrent Overlord out of the deck, for 2 Barons.
I have, although I haven't acquired a Baron yet to test. My concern with Baron is that he doesn't have a powerful ETB effect my other two giants do. He is very castable and protection is invaluable though so I will for sure give him a whirl.
hmm looks like you're trying to mix in a bit of reanimation to the deck.. well unlike some people in the thread I won't go and say THAT'S STUPID CAUSE IT HAS OTHER COLORS IN IT!
will like to see how the deck plays out cause it's interesting but I do have something to say about your lands though.. 24 lands with 6 colorless in a dual colored deck seems a bit inconsistent.. maybe losing mutavaults for some basics?
Thanks for not jumping down my throat for trying something different! Reanimation is a lot of fun but also can be quite powerful ... throwing an Abhorrent Overlord out there with 8+ harpies is almost always GG.
Mutavaults + two Nykthos .. I agree it's tricky especially on T3 with a Nighveil Specter and only two swamps. But rather than cut Mutavaults I think I am going to go up to 25, perhaps even 26 lands. Flooding out with cards like Pack Rat & Underworld Connections is not as big of a deal and I need the land drops all game long anyways.
So far in my testing I've been playing against some very good U/W and Mono-Blue decks and some good but not great G/W and mono-red decks. Of those decks, the U/W is the most trouble mostly due to D-Sphere and to some extent Jace. Mono-Blue I usually can beat although sometimes Master of Waves can overwhelm. G/W is probably my best matchup as I side in Lifebane and they get two-for-oned all game. Mono-Red used to be able to aggro me before I added more Pack Rats, now I eat them for breakfast.
2 mana and X = 2 and you can exile 2 "nasty" cards ? Its sorcery, yeah, but i think thats really great. Its something like a mass removel.
Edit: Of course, the enemy gets 2/2 tokens for each creature exile this way. But i do prefere to fight 2/2 boards instead of one Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Kind of tough to play since it requires 2 Blue mana symbols...
Alrighty, so I have been having some trouble figuring out what to sideboard in and out in many matchups lately and have regrettably found myself going 61-63 in the MD after SB which is obviously not desirable.
So obviously I need more lifebane in the side and am working on that but how should I board against let's say Esper, given it's popularity?
Something like -2 Pack Rat, -1 or 2 Lilliana, -1 to 2 thoughtsieze, -UP and r Devour Flesh (maybe leave DF in there)... For like +1 Erebos, +3 Durress, or something like that?
What about the mirror? I never know what to take out to get to 60.. Also I saw somene post that they take out DD in the mirror... is this right? He seems like such a boss when he hits I don't know if I can bring myself to take him out even in the mirror.
Basically I need some major SB halp! And you think I should go -1 Nikthos +1 Mutavault? Makes sense to me as nikthos can be kinda lack luster.. thing is it goes great with corrupt and doing crazy shenanigans late game with underoworld.
In addition I think what Friday is trying to say is that regardless of your individual player field (which should only matter a little bit) at any competitive tournament you will see certain decks that have proven themselves to be competitive. It is important to understand that out of your entire meta, it is still likely that globally, regardless of location, there will be some consistency in what decks are being seen. So it is more important to prepare for these established decks than it is to try to pinpoint what people are playing in your local "meta" and respond to this. It is an interesting theory that I mostly agree with, although I think there are sometimes freak occurrences like a FNM meta being 90% aggro or something crazy (FNM is a low sample size) like that. I think I see your point though (let me know if I murdered that).
why against esper would you remove thoughtsieze and put in duress? you dont have to worry about life in that match up and sieze has the ability to grab an atherling or a BBOV both of which are really hard for us to answer.
as for general sb mentality i dont devote a whole lot of slots to the esper match up its generally strong for us so i would say pull the pack rates the devour flesh and the ulitmate price and put in the 2nd god and the 3 duress.
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Negative. You can activate mutavault's ability as a response to declared blockers P/T. Because Mutavault when activated as a creature gains all creature types (including Rat), Pack Rat gets its bonus for another rat on the board. Mutavault takes only 1 to activate, so you need only leave that open to activate.
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That is correct. It is impossible to provide a % on how often this occurs. It's strictly situational based upon the board state. If I am in a position to be aggressive; i.e. I've used my removal to clear their board, then by all means. If the board is stagnant with creatures, I wouldn't necessarily gain any advantage.
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You nailed it - to the wall.
Why the planes walker. I know it's mono black but is she really worth a spot? I know she's black and a planes walker, that's cool and she could be good if you wanted to ramp into something but she's weak. Her negative ability can kill something but we are jam packed full of removal and a 4 cmc kill spell is not what we need. I'd rather jam demon, erebos or whip, I just can't see a matchup where she would be needed.
Thanks for understanding
I actually think Lili isn't bad in the deck--if you have more than 2 Pack Rat MB.
Tutoring up a swamp every turn means you can discard a dead card every turn to make another rat, and improve your draws from UC.
I could see running a 1-of over a 4th Underworld Connections or a removal.
That's wrong and a bad idea. Underworld Connections is too staple to drop down to 3 in MBD, and losing a removal for a worse removal = bad.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
Edit-- play four hero downfall-- I lost to a turn two domri getting ult-ed. You lose to that read domri ult it rapes us there is no good reason to run less that four downfall other than not having it because of price jump. Get them and play them the core of the deck is 4 down fall 4 cash seize 4 demon 4 connections and then the gary whip combo
Edit pack rat is a boss - don't doubt him
And I've had some success with Lili in the sideboard. Not sure if she is worth a slot but I am trying her for now.
She's meaningless in other matches, but untill MUD is less than 30% of my meta I'll keep her in the SB.
Dies to Hero's Downfall, gives no massive advantage, costs 4 mana, and is the worst removal spell in mono black (4 mana) and Devour Flesh kills Thassa activated, all by itself and only costs 2 mana (and a clear board, sadly).
She's also a 4 mana for 3, and dies if you use her X ability when first played. A jank card and shouldn't be used in Mono black, we have much better options.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
Whatever drones do you play with that would rather sacrifice Thassa than an owl, or run Hero's Downfall in MUD for that matter?
This thread-primer is devided and conflicted we need unity and understanding that we all want the same,e thing. Mono blAck co tro,l. Post mono black lists with sideboard options . Stop derailing the thread with splash debate. Its good as long as we respect the other decent decks A d build accordingly .
4 seize. 4 downfall is the core.
3 Pack Rat
4 Nightveil Specter
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Ashen Rider
Spells (17)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Underworld Connections
2 Rescue from the Underworld
3 Whip of Erebos
2 Liliana of the Dark Realms
Lands (24)
4 Mutavault
4 Godless Shrine
3 Temple of Silence
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
11 Swamps
2 Illness in the Ranks
3 Ultimate Price
3 Lifebain Zombie
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Shadowborn Demon
3 Obzedat's Aid
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
My sideboard is still not into form yet but it's coming along. I've only really two more cards to add to the MD: one or two Hero's Downfall and a Thoughtseize.I'm also choosing to not use Desecration Demon although for quite some time I used 4. This is mostly a meta call as he keeps letting me down against mono-blue & red.
hmm looks like you're trying to mix in a bit of reanimation to the deck.. well unlike some people in the thread I won't go and say THAT'S STUPID CAUSE IT HAS OTHER COLORS IN IT!
will like to see how the deck plays out cause it's interesting but I do have something to say about your lands though.. 24 lands with 6 colorless in a dual colored deck seems a bit inconsistent.. maybe losing mutavaults for some basics?
I don't have his current list but as far as i've seen and talked ot him about it, he runs ZERO pack rats MD (2 or 3 SB), 1 MBCorrupt, Read the Bones MD and Underworld Connections on SB and both Lifebane Zombie and Nightveil Specter MD. Also the classic shell of 4 Seize, Garys and Demons. Not sure on his removal suite though.
The store's meta is pretty diverse so i belive this deck performs pretty well in an overall.
Any oppinions about it ?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
I never said the Hero's Downfall was from MUD, it's from Esper/Mirror.
An activated Thassa is easily shut down by removing the devotion, which is CREATURE based and easy for our deck to do.
Liliana is just not worth running. It's a 4 mana plainswalker that generates almost no advantage unless it stays alive for 2-3 turns, and that won't happen very often.
Mono Black B
Mono Blue U
Esper Control BUW (Soon)
Commander
Mindseize BRU
Esper BWU
Modern
Black Deck Wins B
Goblin Deck Wins R
I have, although I haven't acquired a Baron yet to test. My concern with Baron is that he doesn't have a powerful ETB effect my other two giants do. He is very castable and protection is invaluable though so I will for sure give him a whirl.
Thanks for not jumping down my throat for trying something different! Reanimation is a lot of fun but also can be quite powerful ... throwing an Abhorrent Overlord out there with 8+ harpies is almost always GG.
Mutavaults + two Nykthos .. I agree it's tricky especially on T3 with a Nighveil Specter and only two swamps. But rather than cut Mutavaults I think I am going to go up to 25, perhaps even 26 lands. Flooding out with cards like Pack Rat & Underworld Connections is not as big of a deal and I need the land drops all game long anyways.
So far in my testing I've been playing against some very good U/W and Mono-Blue decks and some good but not great G/W and mono-red decks. Of those decks, the U/W is the most trouble mostly due to D-Sphere and to some extent Jace. Mono-Blue I usually can beat although sometimes Master of Waves can overwhelm. G/W is probably my best matchup as I side in Lifebane and they get two-for-oned all game. Mono-Red used to be able to aggro me before I added more Pack Rats, now I eat them for breakfast.
Kind of tough to play since it requires 2 Blue mana symbols...
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why against esper would you remove thoughtsieze and put in duress? you dont have to worry about life in that match up and sieze has the ability to grab an atherling or a BBOV both of which are really hard for us to answer.
as for general sb mentality i dont devote a whole lot of slots to the esper match up its generally strong for us so i would say pull the pack rates the devour flesh and the ulitmate price and put in the 2nd god and the 3 duress.