I really like this deck and as of now i still have 1 card left to assign to the deck. I'm thinking very much about adding another Thassa, God of the Sea but also another Dreadbore is tempting.
In this deck, Thassa can act like an aetherling and sometimes do a bit more than that. I figured that as i run 2x Prognostic Sphinx and 4 Weirds as well as 3 Jace's I don't need too much for the devotion to become active.
Also thinking about upping the Jace's count to 4x if i can find someone willing to trade it away at my local shop, then probably tuning down to 2x Ashiok if I decide to do that.
My Anger of the Gods count went up to 4x maindeck as i've playtested against many things and one of the only decks that makes me wish i didn't have a playset of them in MB was control. Even Devotion decks like Big Blue is suffering from the 4x AoTG. Even though you won't hit their Master of Waves with the card, you'll hit the most important thing being the tokens.
Against big creatures like GW you can always save up your anger of Gods till you have 2x to play at the same time to deal with most of their creatures if we're really desperate
Thoughts?
I'd run 4 Dreadbore. Also, what I found with these decks is that the power level is abysmal. A single removal spell on a planeswalker and you can get outdrawn by most midrange decks. I'd run Ætherling over the Sphinx for that reason. I'd also cut at least 1 mountain for an Island, to bring you to 15 blue/15 red.
Also, note that with 16 lands your 82% to hit UU on turn 3 (draw). With 12 black you're 91% to hit on 3. The extra 10% is nice, but now you've choked out your black mana and can't Doom blade + Psychic Strike easily. Not sure if it's come up for you, but it sounds like it would be an issue in my mind. Plus, Dissolve is just plain good. Turn 3 is the average turn where you start missing land drops. I sometimes Dissolve cards that don't need countering just to Scry 1. Once again, you're playing an archetype with a very low power level and then running weaker versions of the only good cards available. It's the same reason I don't get people trying to fit Inspiration into their deck. I'm running 2 Izzet Guildgates over you and I have the full load of 17 :symu:.
Just a quote from Gerry Thompson after his own experiences at the pro tour.
Which is pretty much what we've been saying for quite some time now. I'm not discrediting the viability of Grixis as a whole but it is something to think about going forward.
I read that the other day as well. However there seem to be relevant targets in most decks that did top 8 at pt theros
GR - hits dorks to slow the explosive nature of that matchup.
WB - hits captain, soldier of the pantheon, and tokens.
Mono u- almost everything
There is not much in the mono black deck.
Cleaning up Elspeth tokens can warrant 1-2 copies left in post side. Will everyone be playing the pt decks that they tweaked or will there still be a few rouge red and GW players? Seems pretty good there too. Its definitely no Supreme Verdict for sure but if less people play them then people start to play more of the creatures they hit and its value goes back up.
I definitely do feel the frustration with having one in my hand and it being a dead card from time to time game 1 but I for now I am accepting this as a somewhat necessary evil given the multi card advantage in about half the matchups.
Just a quote from Gerry Thompson after his own experiences at the pro tour.
Which is pretty much what we've been saying for quite some time now. I'm not discrediting the viability of Grixis as a whole but it is something to think about going forward.
He's cutting red from his Rakdos deck and playing mono black devotion...
The only way you cut red and have a playable deck is to play a bunch of blocking creatures. Shouta Yasooka got 46th with something like that. Instead of the Weirds, he actually ran Master of Waves to attempt a Huntmaster impersonation:
But how does this even help? The Anger of the Gods which were weak against big creatures are now reaplced by a low-devotion Master of the Waves, which basically chumps, unless they're running black (i.e. all the midrange decks that Anger was bad against) in which case you just make their dead Doom Blades live.
I think the general idea is workable, though. Nightveil Specter is an early-game blocker that dodges Doom Blade and works well with Master, but anything you do like this is going to just make you a midrange deck.
Or you could just run Doom Blades and Inspiration...before you do that, take a look at the current MODO Daily Event metagame:
26% Mono Red in the decks that cash?!!? Disgusting. MODO has an affinity for mono red, but this is insane. I think Thompson may just be pointing out that even if the card is strong against 50% (Mono U, GW, and Mono R) it's painful to be holding in other matchups. I know I've been keeping loot effects in the deck to help get around that.
In fact, 5/8 top 8 decks from the last SCG open get wrecked by Slagstorm, so I just completely disagree with the card being a problem. Maybe local FNMs are heavily slanted towards midrange decks, but I wouldn't evaluate cards based off that.
In fact, 5/8 top 8 decks from the last SCG open get wrecked by Slagstorm, so I just completely disagree with the card being a problem. Maybe local FNMs are heavily slanted towards midrange decks, but I wouldn't evaluate cards based off that.
I'm afraid you glanced too quickly over those lists. It's 1 G/R Monsters, 1 Mono Red, 1 Esper Ctrl, 2 Boros Aggro, 2 Selesnya Aggro and 1 Dega Midrange. I assume that you lumped the 5 in Mono Red, Boros Aggro and Selesnya Aggro.
But note that besides Mono Red, both Boros and Selesnya Aggro has defense against Supreme Verdict (and therefore Anger of the Gods), in their main-deck: Rootborn Defenses and Boros Charm. Boros even sideboards Frostburn Weird. And even if you manage to wipe the board, it isn't as if it game over -- they have ample opportunity to keep the pressure on.
In conclusion, I agree with Gerry T. Anger of the Gods is still a card, but at most a side-board card that you bring in for value.
Personally I like the Draw-Go/Mill style better than Tap-Out. So this is the deck I am working on to take to FNM tomorrow. A pretty straight up Draw-Go with a few twists. Only 6 counter’s with 15 removal. I like the proactive way it plays, don’t have to worry so much about something slipping through and/or not having the mana/counter needed when it drops. With that many counters I can usually take care of it after it hits the board, or wait a turn it I want to do something else. The other main addition is the Tablet of the Guilds. So far in testing, I have been very happy with it. It adds 1-2 life almost every turn. The extra life seems to help swing those close games more in my favor. Gives me that extra turn or two to stabilize. I feel the longer the game goes, the better my odds.
I know I don’t need to run both Aetherling and Sphinx, but so far not sure which one I like better, Friday going to take both and see which one is a better fit.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions welcome.
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Modern
Currently Playing UW UW Control/Miracles R Skred Red
I'm afraid you glanced too quickly over those lists. It's 1 G/R Monsters, 1 Mono Red, 1 Esper Ctrl, 2 Boros Aggro, 2 Selesnya Aggro and 1 Dega Midrange. I assume that you lumped the 5 in Mono Red, Boros Aggro and Selesnya Aggro.
But note that besides Mono Red, both Boros and Selesnya Aggro has defense against Supreme Verdict (and therefore Anger of the Gods), in their main-deck: Rootborn Defenses and Boros Charm. Boros even sideboards Frostburn Weird. And even if you manage to wipe the board, it isn't as if it game over -- they have ample opportunity to keep the pressure on.
In conclusion, I agree with Gerry T. Anger of the Gods is still a card, but at most a side-board card that you bring in for value.
Only 1 GR Monsters, 1 BRW Midrange, and 1 Esper Control deck weren't soft to a 3 mana sweeper. Not sure what the misunderstanding is there.
I'm happy for the GW decks being able to interact with sweepers, I guess they made themselves respectable in a Control matchup. They're not going to get blowouts on Slagstorm like they can off Verdict, though. 3 mana is a world of difference from 4. A turn 3 slagstorm is not going to get countered by Boros Charms and Rootborn Defenses, and even if your opponent has "counterspells" for Slagstorm it doesn't make the card mediocre against them. What, would you side out Anger against GW? If it was in your sideboard, would you not board in every single copy possible?
EDIT: You actually have me intrigued. You said you've been running these decks on MODO. How is it that you're in the 2 man queues which are always like 50% blitz aggro, or in the dailies which are also at 50%, right now and yet you don't like the idea of a sweeper? Are you running Frostburn Weirds, instead? Expensive creatures that block? Do you just auto-lose to blitz and then plan your deck around the rest of the field?
Just a quote from Gerry Thompson after his own experiences at the pro tour.
Which is pretty much what we've been saying for quite some time now. I'm not discrediting the viability of Grixis as a whole but it is something to think about going forward.
Imho, u are understimatin' red. Playin' grixis gives access to cards like Slaughter Games that kills control decks alone and Steam Augury that's my favourite draw spell (even over Jace)... And i'm not addin' Rakdos's Return, Izzet charm, and Dreadbore just cause i don't run them (due to the nature of EOTSAYL)...
In conclusion, I agree with Gerry T. Anger of the Gods is still a card, but at most a side-board card that you bring in for value
Well, i think that i'd try them 2 in MB and 2 in SB... Against Selesnya (the bad matchup 'til now) i'll try 4 AotG...
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How viable is it running walkers in my Draw-go deck? Wold love to add Jace (either one) and/or Ashiok, but without blockers, even will all the remove I run. Just don't think they will last very long. I could drop them late, after turn 6-8, but then they are just win-more. What do you guys think?
How viable is it running walkers in my Draw-go deck? Wold love to add Jace (either one) and/or Ashiok, but without blockers, even will all the remove I run. Just don't think they will last very long. I could drop them late, after turn 6-8, but then they are just win-more. What do you guys think?
Personally, I hate tapping out like that. For instance, I lost terribly against a strange G/B deck playing Deadbridge Chant after me playing Jace, Architect of Thought on turn 5. We can deal with creatures, but powerful enchantments like that? I suppose it is crazy to play Grixis colors during an "enchantments matter" block..
First off, I'd like to say that I do not like to tap out if I have a counter in hand.
@those who are doing nothing to contribute aside from implying that grixis isn't viable while complaining that you should just give up, I say go for it. Give up, but why do you insist on bringing that attitude in this forum? Stop coming here just to complain, it doesn't get us anywhere.
How viable is it running walkers in my Draw-go deck? Wold love to add Jace (either one) and/or Ashiok, but without blockers, even will all the remove I run. Just don't think they will last very long. I could drop them late, after turn 6-8, but then they are just win-more. What do you guys think?
It depends on what you mean by "draw-go". I run 7 counterspells and don't have a problem tapping out, since I has twice as many ways to deal with permanents. In some of these 12+ counterspell decks people are listing, I suppose you couldn't even run Jace, though. Haynes had 2 Jace and 2 Ashiok in his list, but I don't see how that wouldn't be better as 4 Jace.
Remember that in this format only Ætherling and the rare enchantments/equipments can't be killed in Grixis. Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall can clean up most anything else, and the ETB creatures from Innistrad all rotated, so you normally won't even lost card advantage.
@cipher, that is what I like about my deck with all the spot removal, I feel like I can deal with just about anything. I dont have to counter it before it hits the board. Just seems to give me a lot more options. So tapping out on one turn, just means I can doom blade them the next.
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Modern
Currently Playing UW UW Control/Miracles R Skred Red
Last Standard I hated Jace because of tapping out. But the power level is just so low right now. There's no Liliana or Garruk or Acidic Slime to punish you. Dreadbore and Doom Blade deal with most everything with only Jace, Xenagos and possibly Domri giving your opponent a 2 for 1. I'm sure I'm missing a few cards, but not many.
Burning Earth I'm ignoring, since counterspells are plain awful, regardless, in that matchup. You're trading down the curve for the most part (3 mana conditional card to deal with 1 or 2 mana threats). Good players see you untapped and just play 2 small creatures and force you to sweep, then land the Phoenix or Burning Earth, making your Dissolve dead in hand.
Plus, the format is so slow that I'm finding you can play Ashiok as a 5 or 6 drop, with Doom Blade or Dissolve up and the game probably hasn't advanced enough that you're too far behind to catch up. It's not like against Jund where a resolved Garruk or a Acidic Slime with Resto in hand meant that you were highly limited in what you could play out without being embarrased. Instead of planning to resolve a bomb at 5 or 6 mana, I find my "fundamental turn" to be when I can play 2 cards in hand on the same turn, one of them being an Ashiok, Jace, or Read the Bones (people compare the card to Divination when it's closer to a sorcery-speed Steam Augury). Cheaper, weaker threats that can be played sorcery-speed earlier without tapping out is better to me than the Sphinxes and whatnot.
So I thought I'd post the update to my old list. After getting mana screwed one to many times I upped the land count to 27 and have been very happy at that number. I replaced the mortars with Ratchet bombs to try and hit every problem permanent that I couldn't before (No hammer time for you). It's also beastly against the master of waves gameplan that mono blue would have against me. The Turn/Burns in the side are for the gods. Trading post can buy back a destroyed whip, gain me some life, recur ratchet bombs, and pump out chump blockers. I dropped the top end of my draw package when I realized I was getting more card advantage on average with Jace and Rakdos's Return, and Jace is a better card against Mono-U and Mono-R. Thoughts?
This just seems like an extremely greedy approach (Dissolve, Anger of the Gods and Hero's Downfall) and with so many guildgates I doubt you'll be able to cast things in time.
I think this is an interesting debate. The argument for a mana-base than can support double requirements in all three colors is very simple: Hero's Downfall is the best spot removal in standard. But it comes at quite a price: for the hard counters, Anger of the Gods and Downfall, the mana base would need 16 R, 16 U, 14 B, which would necessitate 10 lands that necessarily ETB tapped plus 12 more you'd prefer to have ETB tapped. And only 4 of those ETB tapped lands scry. And a resolved Burning Earth is gg.
That's not pretty. Diversifying hard removal amongst more splashable options to keep the mana base respectable seems best, even if it's very frustrating when Dreadbore, UltimatePrice, or DoomBlade fail.
If a super-color intense list is to succeed, it would have to rely on Thoughtseize and Shock, just to have something to do on early turns whilst playing tapped lands. Could be worth considering, but, man, six Guildgates. That just feels bad, especially with Thoughtseize making an already painful deck even moreso.
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Did you come here for the sake of the Dharma? Or did you come here for the sake of a chair?
Hey guys, I've been working on a deck that is mostly UR, with a touch of black that I think is pretty good. What do you guys think about this list? I suppose it is more of a tempo/control hybrid, but it has game vs both control and aggro.
Hey guys, I've been working on a deck that is mostly UR, with a touch of black that I think is pretty good. What do you guys think about this list? I suppose it is more of a tempo/control hybrid, but it has game vs both control and aggro.
I don't like Magma Jet, the scry 2 is nice, but it just misses too much in this meta. Also, you have 9 comes-into-play-tapped lands. That seems quite heavy -- the limit seems to be around 6. Also, you have only 8 sources of black, which means that you won't have black until land 5 a fair number of times. Replace Rakdos Guildgate with Blood Crypt, and exchange at least two of the Islands with Watery Grave.
The other day, I typed out a long response to atanhe's inquiry into a (somewhat) new game-plan of mine. I'm going to just paste a lot of it here to propose an idea, not so much on individual card choices but on the game-plan as a whole...
The deck the stood out the most to me was the Rakdos Control list at Pro-Tour right here
It's not so much the individual cards that I'm focusing on, but more-so the game-plan and how his cards enable it while remaining really consistent.
The game-plan in a nutshell
Early Game (t1-3): Disruption/accumulation
Disrupt and hold aggro down by thoughtseizing a creature based on curve. Anger of the Gods against their weenies.
Against Midrange this deck has thoughtseize, plenty of spot removal with Read the Bones
Against control there is Thoughtseize with Read the Bones
Mutavault also helps apply some good early pressure here too
The cards that further this gameplan
Thoughtseize
Spot Removal
Anger of the Gods for Card advantage
Read the Bones for Consistency + Card advantage
T4-5: Put something on the field your opponent can't deal with.
This is where this deck shines against aggro since they usually don't have the resources to deal with or outrace his fat win-cons.
Against midrange and control, they either have an answer for his threats or they're in a really bad position + He's in Rakdos's Return territory to put them in top-deck mode while he continues to press on for card advantage with more Read the Bones, Chandra, Rakdos's Return while putting his opponent on a really short clock with Desecration Demon and Stormbreath Dragon.
My theory is that Grixis is better at executing this game-plan in some aspects
The advantages that grixis has over rakdos
. Better/more versatile spot removal with cards like far // away and Izzet charm in the early to mid-game
. Counter-magic
. Way better card advantage
. A superior late-game
. By swapping out the demon for jace and the dragon for the sphinx, it's a lot easier to pull ahead while not having to worry (as much) about the following...
a.) Having your bomb get removed
b.) Not getting value from your permanents because if Jace get's removed by a spell, you've already netted value from him and your opponent is a card disadvantage
c.) Land flood/variance
* The sphinx is very real... very real indeed, you just gotta test with it.
The disadvantages Grixis has over Rakdos in executing this game-plan
. It takes longer to kill your opponent since blue will make it more reactive
. It's harder to remain consistent with a 3-color mana base
. Mutavault
. Anything else I may have missed
So in pure theory-crafting, in adding blue while trying to execute a similar game-plan, I came up with this
Another thing grixis has over Rakdos Control is quicken, allowing for more flexibility with reactive plays. I think that quicken is a better one-drop against the field as a whole, but I'm tired of arguing for it since I've been getting tagged as crazy without any constructive criticism. I recommend that you try it out for yourself. Quicken makes rakdos's return a lot more relevant against the agressive strategies now that you have the flexibility to cast RR at the end of their draw step. If not then just cycle the thing or use it on a dreadbore/anger(You should still cast these during your turn if the situation calls for it). It helps a TON with fighting variance in the early game while providing you with plenty of flexibility in the late game. I personally like to cast it like thoughtscour, then If I run into it later I can hold onto it to set up a power-play. If I really need to cycle the card by then, it's only 1 mana. It's a hell of a lot better than top-decking a thoughtseize against aggro, or a shock against midrange/control. It's the best 1 drop we have in my opinion
On Steam Augury: Instead of psychic spiral, all you really need to do is make your deck consistent. This means Zero two-ofs, no misers in the main unless they fulfill the same role as the other redundant cards while still holding on to plenty of three and four ofs. By building the rest of the deck to be consistent on its own, I've been reaping the benefits of this powerful draw spell without the drawback of having to play psychic spiral (which doesn't do anything on its own).
Izzet Charm: Steam Augury also reliably acivates the 3rd mode of izzet charm since you're way more likely to be grabbing a bunch of excess lands to be pitched. Izzet charm consistently turns into an instant speed divination now, so you don't have to sacrifice late-game effectiveness with this card for early to mid game versatility. The only card I side Izzet Charm out for is for doom blade in the mono-blue match-up.
After some fine-tuning...
This game-plan has been working out for me so far, but like I said it could be a complete fluke. I’ll try to find the time to test the game-plan out a bit more in tournament settings as well to let you guys know how it performs. Hopefully it helps to remedy (or at least mitigate) the power vs consistency issue we have all been facing.
With this game-plan in mind while play-testing against all sorts of decks, I’ve trimmed it down to hopefully tackle some of its initial weaknesses to come up with this
Note: Thinking about swapping a rakdos guildgate for an izzet guildgate and finally playing Dissolve of Psychic Strike. Have to mess around with that too
Hello everyone, been lurking this forum for quite some time. I'm extremely interested in the flexibility of Grixis Control. I'm a newer player, I have been playing a form of Esper/Azorious Mill since Feb. With the recent meta and tournament results, I've crafted the following:
I've been toying with the Idea of Traumatize and Psychic Spiral. It worked extremely well with my AzoriousUW control deck stealing top 4 on multiple occasions at my LGS. I just don't see Azorious control keeping up with the new Mono-U and RDW, and I wanted to try a different blend of Control as I've heard Grixis can be one big troll.
The deck itself features a pretty standard removal suite that I crafted after reading over the primer post for an hour or so. I choose not to run Doom Blade in the main mostly due to my wife who plays a B/G rock deck. Seeing the possible power of her deck worries me about more rock decks showing up, so i'm taking the judgement on no MB Doom Blades.
The main win-con is pretty straight forward and a fun combo to pull off, which is to Traumatize and then follow up with a Psychic Spiral.
Why Traumatize??
I know there has been a lot of discussion over in different forums and on the Competitive Mill thread on how Mind Grind would be a better substitute over Traumatize. Honestly, I see Mind Grind more of a hit or miss over Traumatize. Yes, I agree that for 5 mana you can Mind Grind for 3 lands and possibly hit every creature, or you can fix their own deck by milling the top 3 land cards they were about to draw. What I'm trying to say, is Traumatize is more consistent in it's mill capability and life gain possibilities with Crypt Incursion than Mind Grind, and with the current meta, it is not hard to pop it off. I use it as a one-of due to the diminishing returns of this card.
The Sideboard
The sideboard is something I put together based off over Grixis lists and the primer post. Some optional sideboard cards i have is the Notion Theif. I put this card in there in case I come across a deck running Sphinx's Revelation. I'm predicting that any form of real control is going to be hard on this deck as it is more designed towards creature removal. I'm also running Hero's Downfall in the side in the case I run into one of the many decks running silly amounts of walkers. The one card that I am not sure on, is the Lightning Strike. I couldn't think of a 15th card to run at 2 in the morning so I threw it in there as more of a place holder.
Any suggestions for this deck will go a long way. I love the MTG Community and it is the majority of the reason I play!
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The other day, I typed out a long response to atanhe's inquiry into a (somewhat) new game-plan of mine. I'm going to just paste a lot of it here to propose an idea, not so much on individual card choices but on the game-plan as a whole...
I played your initial deck a few times yesterday on MTGO, as it seemed better than other builds. And it was! I did have a few comments though:
Quicken is the real deal. I'm not sure who is so much against it - but it should be fairly obvious that it is a can-trip that enables your sorcery spells to shine. Quicken + Thoughtseize, or Quicken + Rakdos's Return at your opponent's draw step is super powerful, and it turns Prognostic Sphinx's scry 3 ability into an instant speed Ponder (without the shuffle), or Sensei's Divining Top (without putting it on top of the library). That should convince people about its usefulness.
Also, Steam Augury is working better in this deck than many other deck. Indeed, sometimes my opponent would concede after seeing my selection of cards, especially when drawing 3-4 relevant spells out of the five.
I noticed in the update that you replaced one Prognostic Sphinx with an Aetherling. I'm not sure you really need him, since in most situations I was able to win with 2 or 3 sphinxes.
Now, I do think 27 lands may be a little bit on the high side. Granted, you can replace them to Izzet Charm and Thoughtflare, but with 4 can-trips, lots of scry and draw, you are effectively running 28-29 lands. I think it would be prudent to go to 26 or even 25. If so, I would recommend 2 Rakdos Keyrune as a replacement.
As a last note, I am still terrified of enchantments. I would really like to fit in 2 Cyclonic Rift in the 75.
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I'd run 4 Dreadbore. Also, what I found with these decks is that the power level is abysmal. A single removal spell on a planeswalker and you can get outdrawn by most midrange decks. I'd run Ætherling over the Sphinx for that reason. I'd also cut at least 1 mountain for an Island, to bring you to 15 blue/15 red.
Also, note that with 16 lands your 82% to hit UU on turn 3 (draw). With 12 black you're 91% to hit on 3. The extra 10% is nice, but now you've choked out your black mana and can't Doom blade + Psychic Strike easily. Not sure if it's come up for you, but it sounds like it would be an issue in my mind. Plus, Dissolve is just plain good. Turn 3 is the average turn where you start missing land drops. I sometimes Dissolve cards that don't need countering just to Scry 1. Once again, you're playing an archetype with a very low power level and then running weaker versions of the only good cards available. It's the same reason I don't get people trying to fit Inspiration into their deck. I'm running 2 Izzet Guildgates over you and I have the full load of 17 :symu:.
I read that the other day as well. However there seem to be relevant targets in most decks that did top 8 at pt theros
GR - hits dorks to slow the explosive nature of that matchup.
WB - hits captain, soldier of the pantheon, and tokens.
Mono u- almost everything
There is not much in the mono black deck.
Cleaning up Elspeth tokens can warrant 1-2 copies left in post side. Will everyone be playing the pt decks that they tweaked or will there still be a few rouge red and GW players? Seems pretty good there too. Its definitely no Supreme Verdict for sure but if less people play them then people start to play more of the creatures they hit and its value goes back up.
I definitely do feel the frustration with having one in my hand and it being a dead card from time to time game 1 but I for now I am accepting this as a somewhat necessary evil given the multi card advantage in about half the matchups.
He's cutting red from his Rakdos deck and playing mono black devotion...
The only way you cut red and have a playable deck is to play a bunch of blocking creatures. Shouta Yasooka got 46th with something like that. Instead of the Weirds, he actually ran Master of Waves to attempt a Huntmaster impersonation:
A Standard Magic deck, by Shouta Yasooka
46th place at a tournament in Dublin, Ireland on 2013-10-13Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
3 Ratchet Bomb
Creatures
4 Master of Waves
2 Prognostic Sphinx
Enchantments
2 Domestication
Instants
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dissolve
2 Doom Blade
2 Essence Scatter
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Opportunity
4 Syncopate
1 Ultimate Price
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands
7 Island
5 Swamp
1 Dimir Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
2 Pithing Needle
4 Tidebinder Mage
3 Wall of Frost
2 Negate
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Thoughtseize
But how does this even help? The Anger of the Gods which were weak against big creatures are now reaplced by a low-devotion Master of the Waves, which basically chumps, unless they're running black (i.e. all the midrange decks that Anger was bad against) in which case you just make their dead Doom Blades live.
I think the general idea is workable, though. Nightveil Specter is an early-game blocker that dodges Doom Blade and works well with Master, but anything you do like this is going to just make you a midrange deck.
Or you could just run Doom Blades and Inspiration...before you do that, take a look at the current MODO Daily Event metagame:
http://www.mtgo-stats.com/
26% Mono Red in the decks that cash?!!? Disgusting. MODO has an affinity for mono red, but this is insane. I think Thompson may just be pointing out that even if the card is strong against 50% (Mono U, GW, and Mono R) it's painful to be holding in other matchups. I know I've been keeping loot effects in the deck to help get around that.
In fact, 5/8 top 8 decks from the last SCG open get wrecked by Slagstorm, so I just completely disagree with the card being a problem. Maybe local FNMs are heavily slanted towards midrange decks, but I wouldn't evaluate cards based off that.
I'm afraid you glanced too quickly over those lists. It's 1 G/R Monsters, 1 Mono Red, 1 Esper Ctrl, 2 Boros Aggro, 2 Selesnya Aggro and 1 Dega Midrange. I assume that you lumped the 5 in Mono Red, Boros Aggro and Selesnya Aggro.
But note that besides Mono Red, both Boros and Selesnya Aggro has defense against Supreme Verdict (and therefore Anger of the Gods), in their main-deck: Rootborn Defenses and Boros Charm. Boros even sideboards Frostburn Weird. And even if you manage to wipe the board, it isn't as if it game over -- they have ample opportunity to keep the pressure on.
In conclusion, I agree with Gerry T. Anger of the Gods is still a card, but at most a side-board card that you bring in for value.
2x Aetherling
Draw (7)
4x Steam Augury
3x Opportunity
Counter (6)
4x Psychic Strike
2x Syncopate
Removal (15)
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Doom Blade
3x Far / Away
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Thoughtseize
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Mind Grind
2x Psychic Spiral
Lifegain (2)
2x Tablet of the Guilds
Land (26)
4x Blood Crypt
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Steam Vents
4x Watery Grave
6x Island
2x Mountain
2x Swamp
2x Prognostic Sphinx
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Crypt Incusion
2x Counterflux
2x Gainsay
2x Izzet Charm
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rakdos's Return
2x Slaughter Games
Personally I like the Draw-Go/Mill style better than Tap-Out. So this is the deck I am working on to take to FNM tomorrow. A pretty straight up Draw-Go with a few twists. Only 6 counter’s with 15 removal. I like the proactive way it plays, don’t have to worry so much about something slipping through and/or not having the mana/counter needed when it drops. With that many counters I can usually take care of it after it hits the board, or wait a turn it I want to do something else. The other main addition is the Tablet of the Guilds. So far in testing, I have been very happy with it. It adds 1-2 life almost every turn. The extra life seems to help swing those close games more in my favor. Gives me that extra turn or two to stabilize. I feel the longer the game goes, the better my odds.
I know I don’t need to run both Aetherling and Sphinx, but so far not sure which one I like better, Friday going to take both and see which one is a better fit.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions welcome.
Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
Only 1 GR Monsters, 1 BRW Midrange, and 1 Esper Control deck weren't soft to a 3 mana sweeper. Not sure what the misunderstanding is there.
I'm happy for the GW decks being able to interact with sweepers, I guess they made themselves respectable in a Control matchup. They're not going to get blowouts on Slagstorm like they can off Verdict, though. 3 mana is a world of difference from 4. A turn 3 slagstorm is not going to get countered by Boros Charms and Rootborn Defenses, and even if your opponent has "counterspells" for Slagstorm it doesn't make the card mediocre against them. What, would you side out Anger against GW? If it was in your sideboard, would you not board in every single copy possible?
EDIT: You actually have me intrigued. You said you've been running these decks on MODO. How is it that you're in the 2 man queues which are always like 50% blitz aggro, or in the dailies which are also at 50%, right now and yet you don't like the idea of a sweeper? Are you running Frostburn Weirds, instead? Expensive creatures that block? Do you just auto-lose to blitz and then plan your deck around the rest of the field?
Imho, u are understimatin' red. Playin' grixis gives access to cards like Slaughter Games that kills control decks alone and Steam Augury that's my favourite draw spell (even over Jace)... And i'm not addin' Rakdos's Return, Izzet charm, and Dreadbore just cause i don't run them (due to the nature of EOTSAYL)...
Well, i think that i'd try them 2 in MB and 2 in SB... Against Selesnya (the bad matchup 'til now) i'll try 4 AotG...
or I'll change it for you."
________________________________________
° D E C K °
Format: T1.5
- MONOBLACK CONTROL -
B.o0°*'"H"I"R"'*°0o.B
Format: Standard
- CONTROL -
UBR EOTSAYLUBR
Format: Modern
- CONTROL -
UBR CRUEL CONTROLUBR
Nope, if you choose Red and Blue, you'd gain 2 life.
Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
Personally, I hate tapping out like that. For instance, I lost terribly against a strange G/B deck playing Deadbridge Chant after me playing Jace, Architect of Thought on turn 5. We can deal with creatures, but powerful enchantments like that? I suppose it is crazy to play Grixis colors during an "enchantments matter" block..
@those who are doing nothing to contribute aside from implying that grixis isn't viable while complaining that you should just give up, I say go for it. Give up, but why do you insist on bringing that attitude in this forum? Stop coming here just to complain, it doesn't get us anywhere.
It depends on what you mean by "draw-go". I run 7 counterspells and don't have a problem tapping out, since I has twice as many ways to deal with permanents. In some of these 12+ counterspell decks people are listing, I suppose you couldn't even run Jace, though. Haynes had 2 Jace and 2 Ashiok in his list, but I don't see how that wouldn't be better as 4 Jace.
Remember that in this format only Ætherling and the rare enchantments/equipments can't be killed in Grixis. Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall can clean up most anything else, and the ETB creatures from Innistrad all rotated, so you normally won't even lost card advantage.
Modern
Currently Playing
UW UW Control/Miracles
R Skred Red
Retired
BU Faeries
RGW Naya Burn
BW B/W Tokens
Burning Earth I'm ignoring, since counterspells are plain awful, regardless, in that matchup. You're trading down the curve for the most part (3 mana conditional card to deal with 1 or 2 mana threats). Good players see you untapped and just play 2 small creatures and force you to sweep, then land the Phoenix or Burning Earth, making your Dissolve dead in hand.
Plus, the format is so slow that I'm finding you can play Ashiok as a 5 or 6 drop, with Doom Blade or Dissolve up and the game probably hasn't advanced enough that you're too far behind to catch up. It's not like against Jund where a resolved Garruk or a Acidic Slime with Resto in hand meant that you were highly limited in what you could play out without being embarrased. Instead of planning to resolve a bomb at 5 or 6 mana, I find my "fundamental turn" to be when I can play 2 cards in hand on the same turn, one of them being an Ashiok, Jace, or Read the Bones (people compare the card to Divination when it's closer to a sorcery-speed Steam Augury). Cheaper, weaker threats that can be played sorcery-speed earlier without tapping out is better to me than the Sphinxes and whatnot.
4x Blood Crypt
3x Island
2x Izzet Guildgate
3x Mountain
2x Rakdos Guildgate
4x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Watery Grave
Sorcery (7)
3x Anger of the Gods
3x Dreadbore
1x Rakdos's Return
3x Counterflux
3x Essence Scatter
2x Far / Away
3x Izzet Charm
3x Steam Augury
Creature (7)
2x AEtherling
3x Frostburn Weird
1x Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
Enchantment (1)
1x Whip of Erebos
Artifact (2)
2x Ratchet Bomb
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Counterflux
4x Lifebane Zombie
2x Negate
2x Rakdos's Return
3x Thoughtseize
1x Trading Post
2x Turn / Burn
So I thought I'd post the update to my old list. After getting mana screwed one to many times I upped the land count to 27 and have been very happy at that number. I replaced the mortars with Ratchet bombs to try and hit every problem permanent that I couldn't before (No hammer time for you). It's also beastly against the master of waves gameplan that mono blue would have against me. The Turn/Burns in the side are for the gods. Trading post can buy back a destroyed whip, gain me some life, recur ratchet bombs, and pump out chump blockers. I dropped the top end of my draw package when I realized I was getting more card advantage on average with Jace and Rakdos's Return, and Jace is a better card against Mono-U and Mono-R. Thoughts?
I think this is an interesting debate. The argument for a mana-base than can support double requirements in all three colors is very simple: Hero's Downfall is the best spot removal in standard. But it comes at quite a price: for the hard counters, Anger of the Gods and Downfall, the mana base would need 16 R, 16 U, 14 B, which would necessitate 10 lands that necessarily ETB tapped plus 12 more you'd prefer to have ETB tapped. And only 4 of those ETB tapped lands scry. And a resolved Burning Earth is gg.
4 Izzet Guildgate
4 Mountain
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
That's not pretty. Diversifying hard removal amongst more splashable options to keep the mana base respectable seems best, even if it's very frustrating when Dreadbore, Ultimate Price, or Doom Blade fail.
If a super-color intense list is to succeed, it would have to rely on Thoughtseize and Shock, just to have something to do on early turns whilst playing tapped lands. Could be worth considering, but, man, six Guildgates. That just feels bad, especially with Thoughtseize making an already painful deck even moreso.
1 Ætherling
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Hypersonic Dragon
//Instant (16)
3 Dissolve
1 Essence Scatter
3 Magma Jet
4 Quicken
2 Syncopate
3 Turn // Burn
2 Divination
4 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
//Land (25)
6 Island
1 Izzet Guildgate
6 Mountain
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Deceit
RG Tron
UR Delver/Twin
Grand Architect
Standard:
Junk Tokens
I don't like Magma Jet, the scry 2 is nice, but it just misses too much in this meta. Also, you have 9 comes-into-play-tapped lands. That seems quite heavy -- the limit seems to be around 6. Also, you have only 8 sources of black, which means that you won't have black until land 5 a fair number of times. Replace Rakdos Guildgate with Blood Crypt, and exchange at least two of the Islands with Watery Grave.
For your creatures, you might want to mix it up a little (less change of being Detention Sphere'd). Make a 2/2 split between your dragon and Stormbreath Dragon? Aetherling must be harder to cast due to only 25 lands. A CMC 4 creature might do better, Master of Waves, Ember Swallower, Fluxcharger or Water Servant are available in U/R, if you get more black sources you could potentially also consider Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch or [c]
Duskmantle Seer[/c] (Desecration Demon is too heavy on black to play).
Finally, just 2 out of your 60 cards actually draws any cards. How about replacing your 3 Magma Jet's for Steam Augury?
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
The deck the stood out the most to me was the Rakdos Control list at Pro-Tour right here
Lukas Jaklovsky's Deck used at Pro Tour Theros
4 Desecration Demon
3 Stormbreath Dragon
Hand Disruption (5)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos's Return
Removal (20)
4 Read the Bones
4 Anger of the Gods
3 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Devour Flesh
2 Magma Jet
2 Doom Blade
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Land (26)
4 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos GUildgate
6 Swamp
7 Mountain
1 Temple of Silence (Only used for Scry)
4 Duress
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Doom Blade
2 Underworld Connections
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Thoughtseize
2 Shock
It's not so much the individual cards that I'm focusing on, but more-so the game-plan and how his cards enable it while remaining really consistent.
The game-plan in a nutshell
Early Game (t1-3): Disruption/accumulation
Disrupt and hold aggro down by thoughtseizing a creature based on curve. Anger of the Gods against their weenies.
Against Midrange this deck has thoughtseize, plenty of spot removal with Read the Bones
Against control there is Thoughtseize with Read the Bones
Mutavault also helps apply some good early pressure here too
The cards that further this gameplan
Thoughtseize
Spot Removal
Anger of the Gods for Card advantage
Read the Bones for Consistency + Card advantage
T4-5: Put something on the field your opponent can't deal with.
This is where this deck shines against aggro since they usually don't have the resources to deal with or outrace his fat win-cons.
Against midrange and control, they either have an answer for his threats or they're in a really bad position + He's in Rakdos's Return territory to put them in top-deck mode while he continues to press on for card advantage with more Read the Bones, Chandra, Rakdos's Return while putting his opponent on a really short clock with Desecration Demon and Stormbreath Dragon.
My theory is that Grixis is better at executing this game-plan in some aspects
The advantages that grixis has over rakdos
. Better/more versatile spot removal with cards like far // away and Izzet charm in the early to mid-game
. Counter-magic
. Way better card advantage
. A superior late-game
. By swapping out the demon for jace and the dragon for the sphinx, it's a lot easier to pull ahead while not having to worry (as much) about the following...
a.) Having your bomb get removed
b.) Not getting value from your permanents because if Jace get's removed by a spell, you've already netted value from him and your opponent is a card disadvantage
c.) Land flood/variance
* The sphinx is very real... very real indeed, you just gotta test with it.
The disadvantages Grixis has over Rakdos in executing this game-plan
. It takes longer to kill your opponent since blue will make it more reactive
. It's harder to remain consistent with a 3-color mana base
. Mutavault
. Anything else I may have missed
So in pure theory-crafting, in adding blue while trying to execute a similar game-plan, I came up with this
3 Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
Instants (17)
4 Quicken
3 Izzet Charm
3 Syncopate
4 Far // Away
3 Steam Augury
Sorceries (10)
3 Dreadbore
4 Anger of the Gods
3 Rakdos's Return
4 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
7 Mountain
3 Island
4 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Doom Blade
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Dissolve
1 Rakdos's Return
Another thing grixis has over Rakdos Control is quicken, allowing for more flexibility with reactive plays. I think that quicken is a better one-drop against the field as a whole, but I'm tired of arguing for it since I've been getting tagged as crazy without any constructive criticism. I recommend that you try it out for yourself. Quicken makes rakdos's return a lot more relevant against the agressive strategies now that you have the flexibility to cast RR at the end of their draw step. If not then just cycle the thing or use it on a dreadbore/anger(You should still cast these during your turn if the situation calls for it). It helps a TON with fighting variance in the early game while providing you with plenty of flexibility in the late game. I personally like to cast it like thoughtscour, then If I run into it later I can hold onto it to set up a power-play. If I really need to cycle the card by then, it's only 1 mana. It's a hell of a lot better than top-decking a thoughtseize against aggro, or a shock against midrange/control. It's the best 1 drop we have in my opinion
On Steam Augury: Instead of psychic spiral, all you really need to do is make your deck consistent. This means Zero two-ofs, no misers in the main unless they fulfill the same role as the other redundant cards while still holding on to plenty of three and four ofs. By building the rest of the deck to be consistent on its own, I've been reaping the benefits of this powerful draw spell without the drawback of having to play psychic spiral (which doesn't do anything on its own).
Izzet Charm: Steam Augury also reliably acivates the 3rd mode of izzet charm since you're way more likely to be grabbing a bunch of excess lands to be pitched. Izzet charm consistently turns into an instant speed divination now, so you don't have to sacrifice late-game effectiveness with this card for early to mid game versatility. The only card I side Izzet Charm out for is for doom blade in the mono-blue match-up.
After some fine-tuning...
With this game-plan in mind while play-testing against all sorts of decks, I’ve trimmed it down to hopefully tackle some of its initial weaknesses to come up with this
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Aetherling
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
Instants (17)
3 Quicken
3 Izzet Charm
3 Syncopate
2 Psychic Strike
3 Far // Away
3 Steam Augury
Sorceries (10)
4 Dreadbore
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Rakdos Guildgate
7 Mountain
2 Island
4 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Doom Blade
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Far // Away
1 Psychic Strike
1 Rakdos's Return
Note: Thinking about swapping a rakdos guildgate for an izzet guildgate and finally playing Dissolve of Psychic Strike. Have to mess around with that too
1x AEtherling
Planeswalker
1x Jace, Memory Adept
Spells
1x Turn//Burn
2x Crypt Incursion
2x Izzet Charm
2x Devour Flesh
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Ultimate Price
2x Far//Away
2x Steam Augury
4x Inspiration
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Dreadbore
2x Psychic Spiral
1x Traumatize
1x Negate
3x Essence Scatter
3x Psychic Strike
2x Magma Jet
1x Lightning Strike
4x Steam Vents
4x Watery Grave
4x Blood Crypt
3x Temple of Deceit
1x Dimir Guildgate
1x Izzet GUildgate
4x Island
4x Mountain
2x Thoughseize
1x Lightning Strike
2x Slaughter Games
2x Notion Thief
1x Duress
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Gainsay
2x Negate
1x Dispel
1x Doomblade
2x Hero's Downfall
I've been toying with the Idea of Traumatize and Psychic Spiral. It worked extremely well with my AzoriousUW control deck stealing top 4 on multiple occasions at my LGS. I just don't see Azorious control keeping up with the new Mono-U and RDW, and I wanted to try a different blend of Control as I've heard Grixis can be one big troll.
The deck itself features a pretty standard removal suite that I crafted after reading over the primer post for an hour or so. I choose not to run Doom Blade in the main mostly due to my wife who plays a B/G rock deck. Seeing the possible power of her deck worries me about more rock decks showing up, so i'm taking the judgement on no MB Doom Blades.
The main win-con is pretty straight forward and a fun combo to pull off, which is to Traumatize and then follow up with a Psychic Spiral.
Why Traumatize??
I know there has been a lot of discussion over in different forums and on the Competitive Mill thread on how Mind Grind would be a better substitute over Traumatize. Honestly, I see Mind Grind more of a hit or miss over Traumatize. Yes, I agree that for 5 mana you can Mind Grind for 3 lands and possibly hit every creature, or you can fix their own deck by milling the top 3 land cards they were about to draw. What I'm trying to say, is Traumatize is more consistent in it's mill capability and life gain possibilities with Crypt Incursion than Mind Grind, and with the current meta, it is not hard to pop it off. I use it as a one-of due to the diminishing returns of this card.
The Sideboard
The sideboard is something I put together based off over Grixis lists and the primer post. Some optional sideboard cards i have is the Notion Theif. I put this card in there in case I come across a deck running Sphinx's Revelation. I'm predicting that any form of real control is going to be hard on this deck as it is more designed towards creature removal. I'm also running Hero's Downfall in the side in the case I run into one of the many decks running silly amounts of walkers. The one card that I am not sure on, is the Lightning Strike. I couldn't think of a 15th card to run at 2 in the morning so I threw it in there as more of a place holder.
Any suggestions for this deck will go a long way. I love the MTG Community and it is the majority of the reason I play!
Co-Owner / Systems Administrator
Fail Gaming
www.FailGaming.com
Skype: Kibbelznbitz69
I played your initial deck a few times yesterday on MTGO, as it seemed better than other builds. And it was! I did have a few comments though:
Quicken is the real deal. I'm not sure who is so much against it - but it should be fairly obvious that it is a can-trip that enables your sorcery spells to shine. Quicken + Thoughtseize, or Quicken + Rakdos's Return at your opponent's draw step is super powerful, and it turns Prognostic Sphinx's scry 3 ability into an instant speed Ponder (without the shuffle), or Sensei's Divining Top (without putting it on top of the library). That should convince people about its usefulness.
Also, Steam Augury is working better in this deck than many other deck. Indeed, sometimes my opponent would concede after seeing my selection of cards, especially when drawing 3-4 relevant spells out of the five.
I noticed in the update that you replaced one Prognostic Sphinx with an Aetherling. I'm not sure you really need him, since in most situations I was able to win with 2 or 3 sphinxes.
Now, I do think 27 lands may be a little bit on the high side. Granted, you can replace them to Izzet Charm and Thoughtflare, but with 4 can-trips, lots of scry and draw, you are effectively running 28-29 lands. I think it would be prudent to go to 26 or even 25. If so, I would recommend 2 Rakdos Keyrune as a replacement.
As a last note, I am still terrified of enchantments. I would really like to fit in 2 Cyclonic Rift in the 75.