Isn't he a 5 mana doomblade? (how many times do we have 7 creatures in the grave?)
Usually used to break a line of defenders to finish off the game in a turn or two. You could also sacrifice it and use Whip of Erebos to use his ETB a second time, deal 5 damage, and gain 5.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently playing:
Standard:GWBMidrangeGWB
Modern: BWTokensBW
Legacy: Manaless Dredge
Well he is better than doom blade because he can hit black creatures. He isnt just a doom blade effect though. He also acts a blocker for the opponents up coming turn. He swings for a lot and will close out the game fast. We dont really have 6 dudes in the yard that often, but he can just eat Mystics, or Caryitids that are past there prime use. We also have Elspeth that makes lots of tokens.
Can ETB abilities target a hexproof creature? I was under the impression that they couldn't. Wouldn't the Caryatid be safe?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Honestly I haven't played the GW matchup. I could see it being a little problematic.
Yea I love Shadowborn Demon! It comes in against GR, Midrange Decks, and probably GW. Its so legit!
I've done a few test games against G/W and G/W/R (Naya) and it seems pretty even to me. If you get an early smiter out and clog up the board until whip or Elspeth it's fairly easy to win.
G/W can be very fast on the play, but you have a good chance of drawing enough to stall into a fatty. G2 and G3 should not be that hard with Unflinching courage, glare and additional removal to bring in, only have to play around Cel Charm and they probably don't have more than one or 2 if any.
I'm not saying it's an easy match up but it's certainly winnable and I feel like overall I come out on top unless they have the on the play really aggressive 1 drop draw. (If playing the token version then it's not a problem). Just sandbag downfall or doomblade for Trostani and trade wisely using your life total as a resource. You have to play to draw whip (That works for me most of the time playing 2 mainboard).
I've won many games of simply casting Obzedat on t4 or Elspeth on t5 - the lifegame and tokens is very hard for them to race and it's hard to lose to G/W if the game goes late.
I lost my first match on Cockatrice with my BGw junk variant today.
Game one was petty even until he got out a bow with Archangel of Thune. I had a reaper, caryatid and Scooze to his Angel and Caryatid. For the next few turns I could only draw lands and even with read the bones I couldn't find the removal I needed.
In game two I got land screwed and had to mulligan twice. At this point I realize that he is playing a token deck as Advent of the Wurm and trostrani land quickly. I had a turn 4 demon out and managed to remove trostrani. He finds another archangel of thune and when I get removal he uses root born defense and that is pretty much all she wrote. I was kicking myself for siding out my Gaze because in the first game I saw no tokens and I wanted a way to get rid of the angels and bow.
Live and learn I guess. I am seriously second guessing Vraska in my sideboard. I will have to test out some Elspeth once I get my hands on her.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
I lost my first match on Cockatrice with my BGw junk variant today.
Game one was petty even until he got out a bow with Archangel of Thune. I had a reaper, caryatid and Scooze to his Angel and Caryatid. For the next few turns I could only draw lands and even with read the bones I couldn't find the removal I needed.
In game two I got land screwed and had to mulligan twice. At this point I realize that he is playing a token deck as Advent of the Wurm and trostrani land quickly. I had a turn 4 demon out and managed to remove trostrani. He finds another archangel of thune and when I get removal he uses root born defense and that is pretty much all she wrote. I was kicking myself for siding out my Gaze because in the first game I saw no tokens and I wanted a way to get rid of the angels and bow.
Live and learn I guess. I am seriously second guessing Vraska in my sideboard. I will have to test out some Elspeth once I get my hands on her.
Vraska is only good against really slow decks. Not really playable in my opinion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently playing:
Standard:GWBMidrangeGWB
Modern: BWTokensBW
Legacy: Manaless Dredge
So yeah, my list is much different than that of a typical Junk list. I'm forgoing Smiter+Advent for cheaper creatures that serve dual purposes. Because the meta is so fluctuating right now it's good to have a mainboard that is solid vs. all archetypes.
Mainboard:
Soldier of the Pantheon is a really great card in this deck. I love it because it serves two purposes-- an early beater vs. midrange and control, or a great blocker that also gains life. Therefore making it a good card vs. all 3 archetypes.
Voice of Resurgence is, similarly, a good card vs. all archetypes. Versus aggro it is a great early roadblock that can sometimes even 2-for-1 and vs. midrange+control it is a great discourager of removal, or eats up removal while leaving a blocker behind. It's such a great card and key in most matchups.
Sylvan Caryatid is a pretty obvious one. Ramps/Fixes in all matchups but also is an early blocker vs. aggro. I tend to take it out vs. control though as the games will be longer and there's nothing to block.
Boon Satyr is an all star in this deck. Again, he can serve as an early beater vs. midrange/control and late game his bestow really makes removal and Supreme Verdicts much less threatening. And when he's slapped onto a BBoV it's absurd.
Scavenging Ooze, again, is a pretty good card in all matchups. Versus aggro he's a solid wall that can gain back some life, and vs. midrange and control he is a strong beater with a lot of potential.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa is probably my least favorite creature in the deck, but he really shines vs. decks without a lot of removal, and he destroys GW(b) variants. And he's a tank with Boon Satyr on him, of course.
Obzedat, Ghost Council is an inevitability machine that is hard for the opponent to deal with, especially with VoR on the board. He's probably the most mana efficient finisher in standard right now.
Whip of Erebos gives lifelink vs. aggro-centric decks and some extra reach vs. others. Though it's often not the best mana investment to reanimate the smaller creatures, the fact that it synergizes so well with Obzedat, and the lifelink can really extend games.
Blind Obedience is a card that shouldn't be overlooked, I love it as a 1-of just because it slows down aggro and also gives spells in the mid-late game some added value.
Abrupt Decay handles a lot of annoying permanents and hits the majority of early drop creatures.
Devour Flesh is a failsafe vs. BBoV and does not necessarily have to be in the maindeck, but I like to have it just in case. At worst it's just crappy removal.
Selesnya Charm is a nice combat trick, removal for Obzedat/Desecration Demon etc or just a vigilant token. Either way its a good card to have all the time.
Read the Bones is the best card draw in the colors, and typically the 2 life is not so bad with all the ways to gain life in the deck. 4 is a lot but I'm never unhappy to see it in multiples unless i'm facing a very aggressive deck and they flood my hand.. which is rare.
Sideboard:
Pithing Needle: Basically the only way to deal with Aetherling right now, and also useful vs. Jace AOT and Elspeth.
[CARD]
Underworld Connections[/CARD]: More card draw for the control matchup, though 4x Read the Bones is typically sufficient, if the game is going to be super grindy this is a nice fit.
Abrupt Decay: More AD just in case.. for aggro and D. sphere, essentially.
Pharika's Cure: A good answer to hyper-aggro decks though the BB can be tough in this deck. Not sure if this will stay in the SB.
[CARD]
Selesnya Charm[/CARD]: If Obz/DD/Polukranos are a big problem these can be sided in for more answers to that.
Glare of Heresy: Awesome vs. GW(x) decks and pretty solid vs. control if they use a lot of Elspeth and D spheres.
Thoughtseize: Vs. any non-aggro deck, ripping cards from hands is pretty sweet.
Now that Snapcaster Mage and Flashback goes out from Standard the Ooze is not so definitive, but it's a good creature: in the worst situation is a bear, and in some decks is a life-gain machine [also, blocks our friend Soldier of the Pantheon]. Maybe not 3-4, but 2 at least is very useful.
yeah Im running 2 now main in junk mid and I like it. Dont want to crowd 2 slot too much with voice and caryatid now.
I am really loving this color combination. I feel like it's very resilient and has a lot of tools to deal with what we're seeing a lot of lately. My meta is currently dominated by RDW and Esper control. I piloted this deck to first place last week
I play a more control version than most of the other lists I've seen on here. I really like the removal package this color combination offers. I can pretty much destroy any permanent that isn't a land at any given time. Devour flesh is a must in the mainboard for answering Blood Baron which I see a lot of. I know vraska doesn't see much love in this thread, but I find her amazing as a 5 mana destroy anything card.
Voice is great for 2-for-1ing control decks. They get pretty nasty with bow of nylea for +1/+1 counters. I don't play any smiters and I run enough removal that I don't miss them in aggro match ups. If I would cut anything for them maybe it would be desecration demon.
I know deadbridge bridge probably draws some criticism and I will concede maybe it should just be underworld connections in mainboard. However I cannot overstate how amazing it is vs midrange and control. Recurring removal spells and creatures(which go directly into play) is amazing. The only time I'm sad is when it nets me an extra land.
I really want to find room for Advent of the wurm or armada wurm in the mainboard somewhere. Maybe deadbridge, bow, or desecration demon is where I should start looking. Sideboard was me testing things and I'll have a much more solid one next week.
I looked at your list a few pages ago and understand using fiendslayer over smiter, but what about VoR or Advent? I think they are very solid cards that make many of our matchups (control and mirror) much better.
I have two variants to the deck currently, one is GB with lotleth trolls but I do feel GBw is better with smiter(or fiendslayer), VoR, Advent, and Obzedat. It just takes the deck over the top.
I looked at your list a few pages ago and understand using fiendslayer over smiter, but what about VoR or Advent? I think they are very solid cards that make many of our matchups (control and mirror) much better.
I have two variants to the deck currently, one is GB with lotleth trolls but I do feel GBw is better with smiter(or fiendslayer), VoR, Advent, and Obzedat. It just takes the deck over the top.
I've been running a list very similar to the 2nd place SCG and there a few issues. First off is Scooze, I just feel it is really weak in this deck and I am currently testing several replacements (Lion, Experiment one, MD thoughtseize). Second, I think the deck really needs read the bones because a lot of times I keep running into lands/dorks and run out of gas, so I think the drawing is needed. While on the topic of dorks, I cut the mystics completely and up the carythids to 4. I've been doing some play testing with the following list
:
I've been doing moderately well with the list overall, but it doesn't feel smooth at all, and at times really janky. Ontop of that , the mana is maddening as I either flood out (often) or don't draw enough (arguably can be said about any deck, but feels more prevalent here). This is my third iteration of the deck and I am still not satisfied. I think the biggest issue is threat density as a lot of times if my early threats are answered I run out of gas and that's all she wrote. Anyway, if anyone has any advice/questions/comments throw them my way. Thanks in advance.
I've been running a list very similar to the 2nd place SCG and there a few issues. First off is Scooze, I just feel it is really weak in this deck and I am currently testing several replacements (Lion, Experiment one, MD thoughtseize). Second, I think the deck really needs read the bones because a lot of times I keep running into lands/dorks and run out of gas, so I think the drawing is needed. While on the topic of dorks, I cut the mystics completely and up the carythids to 4. I've been doing some play testing with the following list
:
I've been doing moderately well with the list overall, but it doesn't feel smooth at all, and at times really janky. Ontop of that , the mana is maddening as I either flood out (often) or don't draw enough (arguably can be said about any deck, but feels more prevalent here). This is my third iteration of the deck and I am still not satisfied. I think the biggest issue is threat density as a lot of times if my early threats are answered I run out of gas and that's all she wrote. Anyway, if anyone has any advice/questions/comments throw them my way. Thanks in advance.
So the question is do we still need the Scooze? Rhetorical question there. Control no longer interacts with its GY so not needed in the matchup. But against Red aggro, I am afraid that I will take enough damage from shocks, MB thoughtseize, or even RtB that I will need it to even have a chance to stabilize. I think scooze is also really good in the mirror. Now, VoR is better for control, it can be a 2 for 1 against aggro, but we loose all interactions with opponent's GY. Maybe Scooze is only a SB card now, but I wouldn't remove it completely.
As for decks, I have been testing this deck out and it has worked really well. The land base had been solid so far and I really, really want to go to 4 Reaper of the Wilds. They are that good. Maybe one less Advent?
Tested Dan Musser's list against my buddy playing the 4th place deck of that same event Chris Renner's Mono Green. I got stomped 8-2. A few observations...
The mana base kicked my ass every game. There were many occasions where I could not cast Obzedat turn 5 let alone turn 4 and would find myself without double black to cast Hero's Downfall or Whip. Mono Green is a rough match for this deck ill admit. Our list has no way to deal with an activated Nylea. With limited hard removal and his creatures all being huge I could never keep him off of devotion. Shadowborn Demon won me one game because I was able to drop him early with two dorks to sac and killed him in three swings. The other match involved a Smiter with all 3 Unflinching Courages from the board bashing away for the win.
Evlish Mysitic did a poor job ramping me into a turn 4 Obzedat so I reworked the list to have easier threats to ramp into
I looked at your list a few pages ago and understand using fiendslayer over smiter, but what about VoR or Advent? I think they are very solid cards that make many of our matchups (control and mirror) much better.
I have two variants to the deck currently, one is GB with lotleth trolls but I do feel GBw is better with smiter(or fiendslayer), VoR, Advent, and Obzedat. It just takes the deck over the top.
Well the first problem is I don't have any VoR. Would love to get some, but the $30 price tag is harsh. I am currently debating between Smiter and Fiendslayer. I placed 3x Advent in my SB and they have been solid, a bit harsh on the mana base with the double green. I have them in the SB because I run Gaze. Reaper is easier to cast and has solid body and abilities.
I am hopefully going to FNM tonight and will report how I do.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
I'm running 4 Desecration Demon here instead of the Ooze/Sins (moved to the side).
They are beast - big fan of the 6/6 beatdown that yes, they can deal with but not when they have to deal with Obzedat, Smiters, 5/5 trample wurms and you just doom blade'd their Master of Waves. The Demon is a very serious problem against most decks and I haven't regretted playing them yet.
Played a small tourney today, tied first with another Junk midrange deck. Will report more later in the mean time some thoughts (playing more or less dan musser's original list).
- Unflinching courage remains number 1 useful sideboard card. Has won me so many games against mono red and and g/r/x or g/r strategy.
- Moved down to 2 mystics, up to 4 carytids and removed 1 forest for golgari guildgate (advised by dan musser in an article) helps tremendously with the mana base.
- Advent is just so good sometimes and considering playing 4.
- Mirror match is very similar to Jund vs Jund i.e It's very swingy and basically who has the better draw / removal / hand. (I dislike this since it means the deck get's technically worse if more people play it). Trying to work out a way to improve the mirror. Thinking about adding lifebane zombies to the side - as it hits everything and less mystics and more carytids + g-gate it's more reasonable to cast on turn 3 / 4.
- For vs BBoV, play celestial flare as opposed to devouer flesh. It's a little harsh on mana but a MUCH better answer since they can easily play around devour flesh (Where as no one expects flare).
It's a more controlling version of Junk lists we've seen so far. I really think Reaper is awesome in a deck like this and all the free scrys make 26 lands not a problem.
He stated his mana base was the problem. needs more scry lands. You can add a 4th now over a guildgate but the mana base will be fixed with the next set. he also stated he had to shock himself alot
Just want to report how I did last night at FNM. Went 3-1-1. My 3 wins were landslides in my favor, but unfortunately not against the greatest decks.
Match 1: - U/W Control - 1-1-1 Draw Game 1: Kept a hand with 2 lands, and just got mana screwed hard. He got a mutavault and an omenspeaker out and I could never keep up. Game 2: Long and grindy. SB in 3 Sin Collectors for my Fiendslayer Paladins and they did their job, picking off a Sphinx's Revelation. Reaper of the wilds was also great as I fended off an azorious charm he had in his hand for a long time. Eventually I just beat him down and removed blockers he tried to put up. Game 3: Didn't have time to finish it and only got 5 turns in.
Match 2: - Mono Green Aggro - 0-2 Loss
Game 1 and 2 went the same way. My mana base took a dump on me and I couldn't get green mana, which is what I found out I really need in the beginning. I think I only ever got to play 1 fiendslayer before I died both games. It was just sad. My opponent never even knew I played green until I showed him my hand after the second game.
Match 3: - U/W Enchant - 2-0 Win
Guy had just started playing magic and didn't really have a competitive deck. Game 1: He gets a Ajani out on turn 3 which I Hero's Downfall and then follow up by turn 4 and 5 Desecration Demons. Pretty much ended there, but he did manage to get a Gift of Immortality on an Angelic Wall which I thought was kind of cool. Game 2: Side in Advents for Thoughtseizes and just drop big creatures that he can't deal with.
Match 4: - Shadowborn Apostle - 2-0 Win Game 1: I am on the play and he thinks he is on a role and gets 6 Apostles out on turn 3, but then gets a turn 4 Gaze of Granite for 1. From there he never recovered and I just beat him down with a Reaper of the Wilds. Game 2: I side in 2 Golgari Charms and another Gaze. Similar start. He has 3 Apostles in play and then drops and Erebos. At this point I have a fiendslayer in play, I start swinging and he just starts taking damage. He gets the devotion and makes his Erebos a creature. For some reason he doesn't attack. I top deck a Golgari Charm and wipe his board. I just start dropping creatures and win from there.
Match 5: - 4cc Sliver - 2-0 Win. Game 1: He starts dropping slivers as expected, and I counter with a Scavenging Ooze followed by aFiendslayer Paladin which stops him in his tracks. I then just start playing removal and exiling creatures. He has no draw and runs out of cards and I just power through him. Game 2: He doesn't SB anything. I bring in another Gaze and Advents (-1 Selesnya Charm and -3 Thoughtseize). He gets off to a decent start with All his slivers getting +1/+1, flight and first strike. I had a gaze in my hand to start and was just saving it. I had a reaper of the wilds out when I played it and that was pretty much game. The kid who was playing it was somewhat whiney and keep complaining that I was being mean, lol.
Decent enough night, get some store credit and picked up some Smiters. Here is the list I played. I have since modified it a bit to drop the Swamps down to 4 and Forests up to 4. I don't want golgari guild gates as I have enough ETB-tapped lands. Reaper of the Wilds is a card I am debating switching around. It is a solid card, but I am not sure if it is good enough. The scry was very useful with Gaze of Granite (very much an all-star for me) and it make control pause quite a bit. I am also probably going to switch 1x Golgari Charm to the MB for the Selesyna Charm. The charm has mostly been a dead card for me, but enchantment removal could be useful and to help protect against wipes. I saw 3 people playing Esper Control last night and faced 1x U/W control. I also saw 3x RDW.
It seems like everyone and their mom is playing blue-aggro with Master of Waves. Much more blue aggro, red aggro, R/G aggro than control. Only a handful of midrange decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
This is the List that I played at an 8 round tournament with about 150 people in. I ended up in 11th missing Top 8 because I missed an Obzedat trigger that cost me the match. This list is very strong though. I hardly ever felt like I was behind. I played against 2 Bw (lost to one) Midrange, 2 UWx Control, 1 RG Monsters, 1 Big Boros (lost because of the missed trigger playing for top 8), 1 Grixis Control, 1 Mono Green Devotion.
All the matchs were very good. This deck has the ability to keep pace with aggressive decks then turn the corner extremely quickly leave your opponent behind. I really felt good with this list. As of right now I am not sure if I am going to change anything.
Oddly enough though I sided out the Scavenging Oozes almost every single match. I wonder if there is a better substitute for him, or maybe I was just siding wrong.
I played a one of Imposing Sovereign and she was awesome. It makes me almost want to play Blind Obedience over her. The enter the battlefield tapped is super relevant, and I can only imagine being able to extort in race situations.
Like I said before the deck did great. The SB was pretty good. I sided in all the cards at least once. Vraska was a powerhouse the match I brought he in. Underworld Connections was insane, pretty much totally happy with the SB. Lifebane Zombie is the nuts. Love it. Love the deck.
Again, I might test Blind Obedience over Imposing Soveriegn, and before anyone asks why no 4th Voice its because I dont have it, and honestly after playing never really felt the need for 4. Would not disagree with anyone at all playing 4 of them. If there are less than 3 Voices I will disagree then. The thing that impressed me the most with Imposing and making want Blind is the fact it turns of opposing Whips, Obzedats, Stormbreath Dragons, and helps tremendously to put the beats on early. Especially in the Midrange mirror.
This is the List that I played at an 8 round tournament with about 150 people in. I ended up in 11th missing Top 8 because I missed an Obzedat trigger that cost me the match. This list is very strong though. I hardly ever felt like I was behind. I played against 2 Bw (lost to one) Midrange, 2 UWx Control, 1 RG Monsters, 1 Big Boros (lost because of the missed trigger playing for top 8), 1 Grixis Control, 1 Mono Green Devotion.
All the matchs were very good. This deck has the ability to keep pace with aggressive decks then turn the corner extremely quickly leave your opponent behind. I really felt good with this list. As of right now I am not sure if I am going to change anything.
Oddly enough though I sided out the Scavenging Oozes almost every single match. I wonder if there is a better substitute for him, or maybe I was just siding wrong.
I played a one of Imposing Sovereign and she was awesome. It makes me almost want to play Blind Obedience over her. The enter the battlefield tapped is super relevant, and I can only imagine being able to extort in race situations.
Like I said before the deck did great. The SB was pretty good. I sided in all the cards at least once. Vraska was a powerhouse the match I brought he in. Underworld Connections was insane, pretty much totally happy with the SB. Lifebane Zombie is the nuts. Love it. Love the deck.
Again, I might test Blind Obedience over Imposing Soveriegn, and before anyone asks why no 4th Voice its because I dont have it, and honestly after playing never really felt the need for 4. Would not disagree with anyone at all playing 4 of them. If there are less than 3 Voices I will disagree then. The thing that impressed me the most with Imposing and making want Blind is the fact it turns of opposing Whips, Obzedats, Stormbreath Dragons, and helps tremendously to put the beats on early. Especially in the Midrange mirror.
How did you feel about planeswalkers? It seems like you are really weak to them (only 1 downfall main deck). Apart from that and advents which can be delt with relatively easily you have very little way to interact with them.
I like your take on blind obedience, though it's a bit of a "does not effect the game immediately card" and we already have a lot of those between mystics and hexproof farseek.
I've been thinking about cutting smiter from my list and playing more 4cmc's instead + additional removal, but with RDW and G/W still putting up results it seems a bad move. Problem is in the midrange matches up smiter gets outclassed so fast it's quite a bad card and a bad top deck in those matches.
How did you feel about planeswalkers? It seems like you are really weak to them (only 1 downfall main deck). Apart from that and advents which can be delt with relatively easily you have very little way to interact with them.
I like your take on blind obedience, though it's a bit of a "does not effect the game immediately card" and we already have a lot of those between mystics and hexproof farseek.
I've been thinking about cutting smiter from my list and playing more 4cmc's instead + additional removal, but with RDW and G/W still putting up results it seems a bad move. Problem is in the midrange matches up smiter gets outclassed so fast it's quite a bad card and a bad top deck in those matches.
Yeah I did have a little trouble with walkers, just a little though. I would be down to play a downfall over the 2nd putrefy probably.
I could see the arugement for Blind Obedience for sure. Im not totally sold on it (or Imposing Sovereign) but I think it deserves testing after how happy I was with Sovereign.
I would never ever cut Smiter. It is was allows us to still be a strong deck without a turn one mana dork. Just going turn 2 voice, turn 3 smiter is still very good. He is good against aggressive decks acting as a brick wall, and good against control for the obvious reasons. I also dont think he is bad in the midrange matchup. If you get a fast start against them, with either turn one dork into turn 2 smiter that is very good. Even a turn 2 Scooze, Sovereign, Voice, into turn 3 Smiter is pretty good against them. It allows us to put a lot of pressure on them, making them use their removal spells on our three and two drops, which opens the gate to killing them with Advent of the Wurms, Obzedats, and Elspeth.
Yeah I did have a little trouble with walkers, just a little though. I would be down to play a downfall over the 2nd putrefy probably.
I could see the arugement for Blind Obedience for sure. Im not totally sold on it (or Imposing Sovereign) but I think it deserves testing after how happy I was with Sovereign.
I would never ever cut Smiter. It is was allows us to still be a strong deck without a turn one mana dork. Just going turn 2 voice, turn 3 smiter is still very good. He is good against aggressive decks acting as a brick wall, and good against control for the obvious reasons. I also dont think he is bad in the midrange matchup. If you get a fast start against them, with either turn one dork into turn 2 smiter that is very good. Even a turn 2 Scooze, Sovereign, Voice, into turn 3 Smiter is pretty good against them. It allows us to put a lot of pressure on them, making them use their removal spells on our three and two drops, which opens the gate to killing them with Advent of the Wurms, Obzedats, and Elspeth.
That's true - another issue I have with Junk right now is that with the new craze of mono blue and other devotion decks - it's much more risky to run a creature heavy deck.
I've been doing some testing and a lot of games are lost simply because we don't have enough removal to stop devotion and bidant + thassa can race us surprisingly well because of the amount of chump blockers they can generate.
I guess it depends how much the pro tour affects SCG and FNM - if the meta becomes devotion heavy I seriously think we will have to run more removal and take more of a "control" role to these match ups.
That's another reason why Smiter seems week. (Since mono blue's attackers are mostly fliers or unblockable) and smiter trades with frostburn weird when pumped which is super awkward :/
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Usually used to break a line of defenders to finish off the game in a turn or two. You could also sacrifice it and use Whip of Erebos to use his ETB a second time, deal 5 damage, and gain 5.
Standard:GWBMidrangeGWB
Modern: BWTokensBW
Legacy: Manaless Dredge
Can ETB abilities target a hexproof creature? I was under the impression that they couldn't. Wouldn't the Caryatid be safe?
I think he was talking about the sacrifice trigger, not the ETB.
Standard:GWBMidrangeGWB
Modern: BWTokensBW
Legacy: Manaless Dredge
I've done a few test games against G/W and G/W/R (Naya) and it seems pretty even to me. If you get an early smiter out and clog up the board until whip or Elspeth it's fairly easy to win.
G/W can be very fast on the play, but you have a good chance of drawing enough to stall into a fatty. G2 and G3 should not be that hard with Unflinching courage, glare and additional removal to bring in, only have to play around Cel Charm and they probably don't have more than one or 2 if any.
I'm not saying it's an easy match up but it's certainly winnable and I feel like overall I come out on top unless they have the on the play really aggressive 1 drop draw. (If playing the token version then it's not a problem). Just sandbag downfall or doomblade for Trostani and trade wisely using your life total as a resource. You have to play to draw whip (That works for me most of the time playing 2 mainboard).
I've won many games of simply casting Obzedat on t4 or Elspeth on t5 - the lifegame and tokens is very hard for them to race and it's hard to lose to G/W if the game goes late.
Game one was petty even until he got out a bow with Archangel of Thune. I had a reaper, caryatid and Scooze to his Angel and Caryatid. For the next few turns I could only draw lands and even with read the bones I couldn't find the removal I needed.
In game two I got land screwed and had to mulligan twice. At this point I realize that he is playing a token deck as Advent of the Wurm and trostrani land quickly. I had a turn 4 demon out and managed to remove trostrani. He finds another archangel of thune and when I get removal he uses root born defense and that is pretty much all she wrote. I was kicking myself for siding out my Gaze because in the first game I saw no tokens and I wanted a way to get rid of the angels and bow.
Live and learn I guess. I am seriously second guessing Vraska in my sideboard. I will have to test out some Elspeth once I get my hands on her.
Vraska is only good against really slow decks. Not really playable in my opinion.
Standard:GWBMidrangeGWB
Modern: BWTokensBW
Legacy: Manaless Dredge
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Boon Satyr
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Artifact/Enchantment - 2
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Blind Obedience
Instant - 10
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Selesnya Charm
4 Read the Bones
Land - 24
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
2 Pithing Needle
2 Underworld Connections
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Thoughtseize
So yeah, my list is much different than that of a typical Junk list. I'm forgoing Smiter+Advent for cheaper creatures that serve dual purposes. Because the meta is so fluctuating right now it's good to have a mainboard that is solid vs. all archetypes.
Mainboard:
Soldier of the Pantheon is a really great card in this deck. I love it because it serves two purposes-- an early beater vs. midrange and control, or a great blocker that also gains life. Therefore making it a good card vs. all 3 archetypes.
Voice of Resurgence is, similarly, a good card vs. all archetypes. Versus aggro it is a great early roadblock that can sometimes even 2-for-1 and vs. midrange+control it is a great discourager of removal, or eats up removal while leaving a blocker behind. It's such a great card and key in most matchups.
Sylvan Caryatid is a pretty obvious one. Ramps/Fixes in all matchups but also is an early blocker vs. aggro. I tend to take it out vs. control though as the games will be longer and there's nothing to block.
Boon Satyr is an all star in this deck. Again, he can serve as an early beater vs. midrange/control and late game his bestow really makes removal and Supreme Verdicts much less threatening. And when he's slapped onto a BBoV it's absurd.
Scavenging Ooze, again, is a pretty good card in all matchups. Versus aggro he's a solid wall that can gain back some life, and vs. midrange and control he is a strong beater with a lot of potential.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa is probably my least favorite creature in the deck, but he really shines vs. decks without a lot of removal, and he destroys GW(b) variants. And he's a tank with Boon Satyr on him, of course.
Obzedat, Ghost Council is an inevitability machine that is hard for the opponent to deal with, especially with VoR on the board. He's probably the most mana efficient finisher in standard right now.
Whip of Erebos gives lifelink vs. aggro-centric decks and some extra reach vs. others. Though it's often not the best mana investment to reanimate the smaller creatures, the fact that it synergizes so well with Obzedat, and the lifelink can really extend games.
Blind Obedience is a card that shouldn't be overlooked, I love it as a 1-of just because it slows down aggro and also gives spells in the mid-late game some added value.
Abrupt Decay handles a lot of annoying permanents and hits the majority of early drop creatures.
Devour Flesh is a failsafe vs. BBoV and does not necessarily have to be in the maindeck, but I like to have it just in case. At worst it's just crappy removal.
Doom Blade kills things.
Hero's Downfall also kills things.
Selesnya Charm is a nice combat trick, removal for Obzedat/Desecration Demon etc or just a vigilant token. Either way its a good card to have all the time.
Read the Bones is the best card draw in the colors, and typically the 2 life is not so bad with all the ways to gain life in the deck. 4 is a lot but I'm never unhappy to see it in multiples unless i'm facing a very aggressive deck and they flood my hand.. which is rare.
Sideboard:
Pithing Needle: Basically the only way to deal with Aetherling right now, and also useful vs. Jace AOT and Elspeth.
[CARD]
Underworld Connections[/CARD]: More card draw for the control matchup, though 4x Read the Bones is typically sufficient, if the game is going to be super grindy this is a nice fit.
Abrupt Decay: More AD just in case.. for aggro and D. sphere, essentially.
Pharika's Cure: A good answer to hyper-aggro decks though the BB can be tough in this deck. Not sure if this will stay in the SB.
[CARD]
Selesnya Charm[/CARD]: If Obz/DD/Polukranos are a big problem these can be sided in for more answers to that.
Glare of Heresy: Awesome vs. GW(x) decks and pretty solid vs. control if they use a lot of Elspeth and D spheres.
Thoughtseize: Vs. any non-aggro deck, ripping cards from hands is pretty sweet.
Username: Cabz
check out my foil alters
http://s79.photobucket.com/user/gruffigummi/library/Foil Alters?sort=3&page=1
yeah Im running 2 now main in junk mid and I like it. Dont want to crowd 2 slot too much with voice and caryatid now.
check out my foil alters
http://s79.photobucket.com/user/gruffigummi/library/Foil Alters?sort=3&page=1
Artifacts 3
1 bow of nylea
2 whip of erebos
Creatures 15
2 desecration demon
2 obzedat, ghost council
3 reaper of the wilds
4 sylvan caryatid
4 voice of resurgence
Instants 11
3 abrupt decay
3 devour flesh
2 doom blade
2 hero's downfall
2 putrefy
2 deadbridge chant
Planeswalkers 2
2 vraska the unseen
Sorcery 2
2 thoughtseize
Lands 24
6 forest
4 godless shrine
1 Orzhov guildgate
4 temple garden
4 overgrown tomb
1 selesnya guildgate
5 swamp
2 pithing needle
1 blood baron of Vizkopa
2 sin collector
1 erebos, god of the dead
1 mistcutter hydra
3 lifebane zombie
2 underworld connections
2 face into antiquity
1 gaze of granite
I play a more control version than most of the other lists I've seen on here. I really like the removal package this color combination offers. I can pretty much destroy any permanent that isn't a land at any given time. Devour flesh is a must in the mainboard for answering Blood Baron which I see a lot of. I know vraska doesn't see much love in this thread, but I find her amazing as a 5 mana destroy anything card.
Voice is great for 2-for-1ing control decks. They get pretty nasty with bow of nylea for +1/+1 counters. I don't play any smiters and I run enough removal that I don't miss them in aggro match ups. If I would cut anything for them maybe it would be desecration demon.
I know deadbridge bridge probably draws some criticism and I will concede maybe it should just be underworld connections in mainboard. However I cannot overstate how amazing it is vs midrange and control. Recurring removal spells and creatures(which go directly into play) is amazing. The only time I'm sad is when it nets me an extra land.
I really want to find room for Advent of the wurm or armada wurm in the mainboard somewhere. Maybe deadbridge, bow, or desecration demon is where I should start looking. Sideboard was me testing things and I'll have a much more solid one next week.
I looked at your list a few pages ago and understand using fiendslayer over smiter, but what about VoR or Advent? I think they are very solid cards that make many of our matchups (control and mirror) much better.
I have two variants to the deck currently, one is GB with lotleth trolls but I do feel GBw is better with smiter(or fiendslayer), VoR, Advent, and Obzedat. It just takes the deck over the top.
I've been running a list very similar to the 2nd place SCG and there a few issues. First off is Scooze, I just feel it is really weak in this deck and I am currently testing several replacements (Lion, Experiment one, MD thoughtseize). Second, I think the deck really needs read the bones because a lot of times I keep running into lands/dorks and run out of gas, so I think the drawing is needed. While on the topic of dorks, I cut the mystics completely and up the carythids to 4. I've been doing some play testing with the following list
:
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
3 Temple of Silence
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Golgari Guildgate
// Creatures
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Sin Collector
3 Advent of the Wurm
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Doom Blade
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Thoughtseize
2 Read the Bones
1 Sin Collector
1 Doom Blade
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Underworld Connections
2 Golgari Charm
2 Shadowborn Demon
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
I've been doing moderately well with the list overall, but it doesn't feel smooth at all, and at times really janky. Ontop of that , the mana is maddening as I either flood out (often) or don't draw enough (arguably can be said about any deck, but feels more prevalent here). This is my third iteration of the deck and I am still not satisfied. I think the biggest issue is threat density as a lot of times if my early threats are answered I run out of gas and that's all she wrote. Anyway, if anyone has any advice/questions/comments throw them my way. Thanks in advance.
So the question is do we still need the Scooze? Rhetorical question there. Control no longer interacts with its GY so not needed in the matchup. But against Red aggro, I am afraid that I will take enough damage from shocks, MB thoughtseize, or even RtB that I will need it to even have a chance to stabilize. I think scooze is also really good in the mirror. Now, VoR is better for control, it can be a 2 for 1 against aggro, but we loose all interactions with opponent's GY. Maybe Scooze is only a SB card now, but I wouldn't remove it completely.
As for decks, I have been testing this deck out and it has worked really well. The land base had been solid so far and I really, really want to go to 4 Reaper of the Wilds. They are that good. Maybe one less Advent?
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Desecration Demon
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Advent of the Wurm
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Spells 12
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Doom Blade
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
4 Godless Shrine
2 Temple of Silence
1 Plains
4 Swamp
5 Forest
3 Pithing Needle
3 Golgari Charm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Abrup Decay
2 Sin Collector
1 Hero's Down Fall
3 Lifebane Zombie
The mana base kicked my ass every game. There were many occasions where I could not cast Obzedat turn 5 let alone turn 4 and would find myself without double black to cast Hero's Downfall or Whip. Mono Green is a rough match for this deck ill admit. Our list has no way to deal with an activated Nylea. With limited hard removal and his creatures all being huge I could never keep him off of devotion. Shadowborn Demon won me one game because I was able to drop him early with two dorks to sac and killed him in three swings. The other match involved a Smiter with all 3 Unflinching Courages from the board bashing away for the win.
Evlish Mysitic did a poor job ramping me into a turn 4 Obzedat so I reworked the list to have easier threats to ramp into
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Centaur Healer
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Ozbedat, Ghost Counsil
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Doom Blade
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Advent of the Wurm
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
1 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Forest
3 Thoughtseize
1 Doom Blade
2 Golgari Charm
2 Underworld Connections
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Sin Collector
1 Shadowborn Demon
I'd like to hear your opinions and advise and I am gonna do more testing tonight.
Well the first problem is I don't have any VoR. Would love to get some, but the $30 price tag is harsh. I am currently debating between Smiter and Fiendslayer. I placed 3x Advent in my SB and they have been solid, a bit harsh on the mana base with the double green. I have them in the SB because I run Gaze. Reaper is easier to cast and has solid body and abilities.
I am hopefully going to FNM tonight and will report how I do.
They are beast - big fan of the 6/6 beatdown that yes, they can deal with but not when they have to deal with Obzedat, Smiters, 5/5 trample wurms and you just doom blade'd their Master of Waves. The Demon is a very serious problem against most decks and I haven't regretted playing them yet.
- Unflinching courage remains number 1 useful sideboard card. Has won me so many games against mono red and and g/r/x or g/r strategy.
- Moved down to 2 mystics, up to 4 carytids and removed 1 forest for golgari guildgate (advised by dan musser in an article) helps tremendously with the mana base.
- Advent is just so good sometimes and considering playing 4.
- Mirror match is very similar to Jund vs Jund i.e It's very swingy and basically who has the better draw / removal / hand. (I dislike this since it means the deck get's technically worse if more people play it). Trying to work out a way to improve the mirror. Thinking about adding lifebane zombies to the side - as it hits everything and less mystics and more carytids + g-gate it's more reasonable to cast on turn 3 / 4.
- For vs BBoV, play celestial flare as opposed to devouer flesh. It's a little harsh on mana but a MUCH better answer since they can easily play around devour flesh (Where as no one expects flare).
He stated his mana base was the problem. needs more scry lands. You can add a 4th now over a guildgate but the mana base will be fixed with the next set. he also stated he had to shock himself alot
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=532795
Match 1: - U/W Control - 1-1-1 Draw
Game 1: Kept a hand with 2 lands, and just got mana screwed hard. He got a mutavault and an omenspeaker out and I could never keep up.
Game 2: Long and grindy. SB in 3 Sin Collectors for my Fiendslayer Paladins and they did their job, picking off a Sphinx's Revelation. Reaper of the wilds was also great as I fended off an azorious charm he had in his hand for a long time. Eventually I just beat him down and removed blockers he tried to put up.
Game 3: Didn't have time to finish it and only got 5 turns in.
Match 2: - Mono Green Aggro - 0-2 Loss
Game 1 and 2 went the same way. My mana base took a dump on me and I couldn't get green mana, which is what I found out I really need in the beginning. I think I only ever got to play 1 fiendslayer before I died both games. It was just sad. My opponent never even knew I played green until I showed him my hand after the second game.
Match 3: - U/W Enchant - 2-0 Win
Guy had just started playing magic and didn't really have a competitive deck.
Game 1: He gets a Ajani out on turn 3 which I Hero's Downfall and then follow up by turn 4 and 5 Desecration Demons. Pretty much ended there, but he did manage to get a Gift of Immortality on an Angelic Wall which I thought was kind of cool.
Game 2: Side in Advents for Thoughtseizes and just drop big creatures that he can't deal with.
Match 4: - Shadowborn Apostle - 2-0 Win
Game 1: I am on the play and he thinks he is on a role and gets 6 Apostles out on turn 3, but then gets a turn 4 Gaze of Granite for 1. From there he never recovered and I just beat him down with a Reaper of the Wilds.
Game 2: I side in 2 Golgari Charms and another Gaze. Similar start. He has 3 Apostles in play and then drops and Erebos. At this point I have a fiendslayer in play, I start swinging and he just starts taking damage. He gets the devotion and makes his Erebos a creature. For some reason he doesn't attack. I top deck a Golgari Charm and wipe his board. I just start dropping creatures and win from there.
Match 5: - 4cc Sliver - 2-0 Win.
Game 1: He starts dropping slivers as expected, and I counter with a Scavenging Ooze followed by aFiendslayer Paladin which stops him in his tracks. I then just start playing removal and exiling creatures. He has no draw and runs out of cards and I just power through him.
Game 2: He doesn't SB anything. I bring in another Gaze and Advents (-1 Selesnya Charm and -3 Thoughtseize). He gets off to a decent start with All his slivers getting +1/+1, flight and first strike. I had a gaze in my hand to start and was just saving it. I had a reaper of the wilds out when I played it and that was pretty much game. The kid who was playing it was somewhat whiney and keep complaining that I was being mean, lol.
Decent enough night, get some store credit and picked up some Smiters. Here is the list I played. I have since modified it a bit to drop the Swamps down to 4 and Forests up to 4. I don't want golgari guild gates as I have enough ETB-tapped lands. Reaper of the Wilds is a card I am debating switching around. It is a solid card, but I am not sure if it is good enough. The scry was very useful with Gaze of Granite (very much an all-star for me) and it make control pause quite a bit. I am also probably going to switch 1x Golgari Charm to the MB for the Selesyna Charm. The charm has mostly been a dead card for me, but enchantment removal could be useful and to help protect against wipes. I saw 3 people playing Esper Control last night and faced 1x U/W control. I also saw 3x RDW.
4 Desecration Demon
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
Walkers
1 Vraska the Unseen
Removal
1 Putrefy
1 Selesnya Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Gaze of Granite
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Read the Bones
Land
2 Plains
3 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple of Silence
4 Temple Garden
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Devour Flesh
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sin Collector
3 Advent of the Wurm
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
It seems like everyone and their mom is playing blue-aggro with Master of Waves. Much more blue aggro, red aggro, R/G aggro than control. Only a handful of midrange decks.
All the matchs were very good. This deck has the ability to keep pace with aggressive decks then turn the corner extremely quickly leave your opponent behind. I really felt good with this list. As of right now I am not sure if I am going to change anything.
Oddly enough though I sided out the Scavenging Oozes almost every single match. I wonder if there is a better substitute for him, or maybe I was just siding wrong.
I played a one of Imposing Sovereign and she was awesome. It makes me almost want to play Blind Obedience over her. The enter the battlefield tapped is super relevant, and I can only imagine being able to extort in race situations.
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Sin Collector
1 Shadowborn Demon
1 Imposing Sovereign
Spells:
4 Advent of the Wurm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy
1 Heros Downfall
1 Doom Blade
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Elspeth, Suns Champion
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Duress
1 Sin Collector
2 Unflinching Courage
1 Shadowborn Demon
1 Vrask the Unseen
2 Golgari Charm
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Underword Connections
Like I said before the deck did great. The SB was pretty good. I sided in all the cards at least once. Vraska was a powerhouse the match I brought he in. Underworld Connections was insane, pretty much totally happy with the SB. Lifebane Zombie is the nuts. Love it. Love the deck.
Again, I might test Blind Obedience over Imposing Soveriegn, and before anyone asks why no 4th Voice its because I dont have it, and honestly after playing never really felt the need for 4. Would not disagree with anyone at all playing 4 of them. If there are less than 3 Voices I will disagree then. The thing that impressed me the most with Imposing and making want Blind is the fact it turns of opposing Whips, Obzedats, Stormbreath Dragons, and helps tremendously to put the beats on early. Especially in the Midrange mirror.
How did you feel about planeswalkers? It seems like you are really weak to them (only 1 downfall main deck). Apart from that and advents which can be delt with relatively easily you have very little way to interact with them.
I like your take on blind obedience, though it's a bit of a "does not effect the game immediately card" and we already have a lot of those between mystics and hexproof farseek.
I've been thinking about cutting smiter from my list and playing more 4cmc's instead + additional removal, but with RDW and G/W still putting up results it seems a bad move. Problem is in the midrange matches up smiter gets outclassed so fast it's quite a bad card and a bad top deck in those matches.
Yeah I did have a little trouble with walkers, just a little though. I would be down to play a downfall over the 2nd putrefy probably.
I could see the arugement for Blind Obedience for sure. Im not totally sold on it (or Imposing Sovereign) but I think it deserves testing after how happy I was with Sovereign.
I would never ever cut Smiter. It is was allows us to still be a strong deck without a turn one mana dork. Just going turn 2 voice, turn 3 smiter is still very good. He is good against aggressive decks acting as a brick wall, and good against control for the obvious reasons. I also dont think he is bad in the midrange matchup. If you get a fast start against them, with either turn one dork into turn 2 smiter that is very good. Even a turn 2 Scooze, Sovereign, Voice, into turn 3 Smiter is pretty good against them. It allows us to put a lot of pressure on them, making them use their removal spells on our three and two drops, which opens the gate to killing them with Advent of the Wurms, Obzedats, and Elspeth.
That's true - another issue I have with Junk right now is that with the new craze of mono blue and other devotion decks - it's much more risky to run a creature heavy deck.
I've been doing some testing and a lot of games are lost simply because we don't have enough removal to stop devotion and bidant + thassa can race us surprisingly well because of the amount of chump blockers they can generate.
I guess it depends how much the pro tour affects SCG and FNM - if the meta becomes devotion heavy I seriously think we will have to run more removal and take more of a "control" role to these match ups.
That's another reason why Smiter seems week. (Since mono blue's attackers are mostly fliers or unblockable) and smiter trades with frostburn weird when pumped which is super awkward :/