This thread is for all postings of GW aggressive decks. In my eyes, there are 2 ways to do this:
:symg::symw:Archangel Midrange:symg::symw::
This deck generally wins by playing big threats and overwhelming the board while gaining tons of life. Stuff like trostani, archangel of thune, scavenging ooze, and bow of nylea all work extremely well together.
The deck's biggest strengths are that it destroys just about every type of aggro there is. It's weakness is control, which goes over the top of this deck with supreme verdict and sphinx's revelation.
:symg::symw:GW aggro:symg::symw::
This deck gets it's early drops on the board and then plays it's heavier drops at instant speed. Stuff like rootborn defenses, advent of the wurm, and selesnya charm all add awesome board presence and combat tricks to make blowouts or simply make it hard for control players to know what the best line is for any situation.
This deck is much stronger against control than it's midrange brother, but it's weaker 1 drops don't match up well against most midrange decks looking to go bigger.
Thanks for getting Selesnya up and running quick Joe, looks good, like both of the lists, and you're definitely an authority here many posters can trust on aggressive decks. Straight to the point and concise is how you roll here.
EDIT: Just noticed the first list is only @ 58 cards currently, I can't guess for the life of me what that 2-of is.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
Not the best lists but decent setup for the idea.
first list is really too clunky I think, angel is quite slow and still hard to set up even if you play some otherwise subpar cards like trostani and bow of nylea to make it happen. I don't think it;s worth investing into at all.
The faster list is much better imo and fairly good. I'd definately play soldier of pantheon over judge's familiar though, the upsides on him are quite good. Boon satyr is also a must imo, fantastic card to play around sweepers and the bestow is really useful especially as this deck has almost no other tricks available. The whole call of the conclave - rootborn defenses thing is not so great now, there are much better 2 drops available than call (fleecemane, voice and ooze) and rootborn defense is a bit clunky still and less needed if you have boon satyr anyway.
I hate the guildgates, but they are necessary to some degree to ensure I can actually cast my spells. That said the tempo loss is huge, especially for this deck. Really makes me wish we still had avacyn's pilgrim /=
Not the best lists but decent setup for the idea.
first list is really too clunky I think, angel is quite slow and still hard to set up even if you play some otherwise subpar cards like trostani and bow of nylea to make it happen. I don't think it;s worth investing into at all.
The faster list is much better imo and fairly good. I'd definately play soldier of pantheon over judge's familiar though, the upsides on him are quite good. Boon satyr is also a must imo, fantastic card to play around sweepers and the bestow is really useful especially as this deck has almost no other tricks available. The whole call of the conclave - rootborn defenses thing is not so great now, there are much better 2 drops available than call (fleecemane, voice and ooze) and rootborn defense is a bit clunky still and less needed if you have boon satyr anyway.
I disagree with a lot of things in this post. First, the angel is slow, but given enough synergy can be very powerful and worthwhile. Second, rootborn defense is one of the most key, synergistic cards in a selesnya token deck. It's good with any token, as you're usually blanking a removal spell and getting another token (2-1), and it absolutely insane with advent of the wurm. You say this deck has almost no other tricks available, I say you don't know what you're talking about. Selesnya charm, boon satyr, rootborn defense, and especially advent of the wurm are all "tricks" by virtue of being instant speed. And now that we have so many actually decent tricks, the opponent can't assume that 4 mana open is just a advent of wurm, because it could be any of those said tricks. Also, being able to EoT Advent and untap with rootborn defense backup is insanely powerful. Don't knock it before you try it, and if you have tried it and are still knocking it, then you're doing something wrong.
Oh yeah, and Trostani is insane. Walls aggro like no tomorrow, hard to race by gaining 3-5-10+ life by simply playing your deck, and if she isn't responded to immediately she's value city. So why is trostani subpar again? I'll agree with you that fleecemane lion is better than call of the conclave in a vaccum, but the synergy with tokens right now from the last block imho makes call (and aforementioned token based cards) better.
Thanks for getting Selesnya up and running quick Joe, looks good, like both of the lists, and you're definitely an authority here many posters can trust on aggressive decks. Straight to the point and concise is how you roll here.
EDIT: Just noticed the first list is only @ 58 cards currently, I can't guess for the life of me what that 2-of is.
thanks for the props. the 2 cards left out were selesnya charm. it's fixed now though.
Not the best lists but decent setup for the idea.
first list is really too clunky I think, angel is quite slow and still hard to set up even if you play some otherwise subpar cards like trostani and bow of nylea to make it happen. I don't think it;s worth investing into at all.
The faster list is much better imo and fairly good. I'd definately play soldier of pantheon over judge's familiar though, the upsides on him are quite good. Boon satyr is also a must imo, fantastic card to play around sweepers and the bestow is really useful especially as this deck has almost no other tricks available. The whole call of the conclave - rootborn defenses thing is not so great now, there are much better 2 drops available than call (fleecemane, voice and ooze) and rootborn defense is a bit clunky still and less needed if you have boon satyr anyway.
I don't assume my lists are perfect by any means, especially since there's no established meta game to build towards.
the first list is a midrange deck. It's supposed to be somewhat "clunkier" than some other decks in an effort to go over the top of them. Still, the deck has plenty of action in the early game with voice of resurgence, fleecemane lion, and possible T2 loxodon smiter along with scavenging ooze. All that is pretty moot anyhow, since most of the time any life loss early on is going to be mitigated by the massive amount of lifegain the deck provides.
Trostani is anything but sub-par. He populates, gains tons of life, and enables sick plays with archangel of thune. Generally landing a trostani on the board creates impossible combat and racing situations for your opponent. He is a must-kill creature for your opponent every time he hits the field. If he sticks, you win. Granted, he's not that great against control, but you board him out in those matchups.
bow of nylea seems weak at first glance, but playing with it would give other impressions. It has subtle, but very powerful synergies with the rest of the deck. Giving all of your creatures deathtouch gives a lot of extra value to your voices and mystics. The gain life mode works wonders with archangel, and the counter mode is great for combat situations or saving your creatures from burn. Or against control you can keep growing a monsrous fleecemane lion, since most control decks outside of esper won't have many(if any) ways to deal with a monstrous lion. The last mode doesn't come up much, but I have had moments facing down a jace memory adept loving the fact that I could simply shuffle 4 cards in a turn and decrease their milling clock by a wide margin.
I hate the guildgates, but they are necessary to some degree to ensure I can actually cast my spells. That said the tempo loss is huge, especially for this deck. Really makes me wish we still had avacyn's pilgrim /=
I really like boon satyr in this deck, but I don't think bow of nylea is really where this deck wants to be. I also don't know about cutting judge's familiar, but I guess it's fine until control finds it's roots. I might try this version -4 elvish mystic, +4 soldier of pantheon, -2 bow, +2 spear of heliod, -1 trostani, +2 boon of satyr. The mana is probably horrible with my setup, so yours is probably better. just something I want to try.
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The thing with Trostani is, she's terrible vs. control (this deck worst match up) and great in a match up this deck already do well. I would rather play something that help me against my worst enemy then over kill with a token army and 200 life.
She has a place in SB though.
Also, I wouldn't trust in the token strategy. That GW tokens is almost identical to GW tokens in RTR block and in RTR block that deck isn't strong enough to be considered a tier 1.5 (it's mostly a tier 2.0). You seriously don't want to play 3/3 conclave over the lion...
Also one of the bets ways to go with GW is going hard ramping (add some carystids in top of the elves) and get Angel of Salvation. That card is the best cmc6+ creature in the format by a mile. It is powerful removal in GW colors while also getting cards back for you.
The thing with Trostani is, she's terrible vs. control (this deck worst match up) and great in a match up this deck already do well. I would rather play something that help me against my worst enemy then over kill with a token army and 200 life.
She has a place in SB though.
Also, I wouldn't trust in the token strategy. That GW tokens is almost identical to GW tokens in RTR block and in RTR block that deck isn't strong enough to be considered a tier 1.5 (it's mostly a tier 2.0). You seriously don't want to play 3/3 conclave over the lion...
Also one of the bets ways to go with GW is going hard ramping (add some carystids in top of the elves) and get Angel of Salvation. That card is the best cmc6+ creature in the format by a mile. It is powerful removal in GW colors while also getting cards back for you.
part of the reason this deck is so dominant over aggro decks is because of trostani.
while this deck may need to adapt later in the format should control become a dominant force, which would more than likely involve dropping trostani (and probably archangel as well) I would rather simply play to dominate aggressive strategies atm.
also, I agree that the aggro strategy isn't that powerful a strategy in a vacuum, still, it is very powerful vs control strategies and gains several cards that help make it much better against the midrange strategies that it struggled against in block. I figured it was worth mentioning in the primer at least to demonstrate the difference between the 2 decks.
I'm not entirely sold on an angel of serenity ramp strategy yet. Many of the control strategies are adapting more counterspells with the absence of cavern of souls, so resolving a 7 mana spell could be hard to do, especially since you have to drop some of your early pressure to make room for sylvan caryatid to make playing the angel any kind of consistent. Also, I don't want to be relying on angel of serenity against mono red, a powerful deck that will more than likely make up a large portion of the competitive metagame right off the bat.
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I really like boon satyr in this deck, but I don't think bow of nylea is really where this deck wants to be. I also don't know about cutting judge's familiar, but I guess it's fine until control finds it's roots. I might try this version -4 elvish mystic, +4 soldier of pantheon, -2 bow, +2 spear of heliod, -1 trostani, +2 boon of satyr. The mana is probably horrible with my setup, so yours is probably better. just something I want to try.
I'm not sure how good bow will be. I think it will probably be subpar to terrible, but I want to at least try it out. I'd rather have ajani, caller of the pride in that spot but I don't think the deck can reliably hit WW turn 2 or even 3. That said the bow does a poor imitation of ajani in giving +1 counters and deathtouch as a static ability is just about perfect here, as between advent of the wurm and selesnya charm I have 8 forms of trample, and trample + death touch is usually a good combination. Granted it might be overkill, but again, I wanna try it, although I think I probably will replace it with the better (more consistent) boon satyr. I think soldier of pantheon is fine in a super aggressive version of the deck, but I feel GW has better things to play, making elvish mystic (ramp) or experiment one (which gets huge) more optimal. I'd rather have a turn 2 smiter or turn 3 advent than a turn 1 soldier of pantheon.
The thing with Trostani is, she's terrible vs. control (this deck worst match up) and great in a match up this deck already do well. I would rather play something that help me against my worst enemy then over kill with a token army and 200 life.
She has a place in SB though.
Also, I wouldn't trust in the token strategy. That GW tokens is almost identical to GW tokens in RTR block and in RTR block that deck isn't strong enough to be considered a tier 1.5 (it's mostly a tier 2.0). You seriously don't want to play 3/3 conclave over the lion...
Also one of the bets ways to go with GW is going hard ramping (add some carystids in top of the elves) and get Angel of Salvation. That card is the best cmc6+ creature in the format by a mile. It is powerful removal in GW colors while also getting cards back for you.
I didn't play rtr block constructed, but I find it hard to believe tokens wasn't a deck, especially after dragon's maze gave us voice of resurgence. Either way, I've played the deck and it has a lot of synergy an natural aggression, which tends to be a winning combination. I also don't agree that trostani is overkill. She is what makes any red based aggressive MU so great.
Control doesn't always have the answer in hand against a given threat. I play UWr and UW control online currently, and very frequently you need to stall or play damage control until you can find the right answer. If you can land trostani with any token on board and the control deck doesn't have an answer right then, you can add more pressure to the board without having to actually spend a card. Therefore when the control player does find an answer, you have more cards in hand to immediately bounce back and produce more threats. Ergo trostani is not really that bad against control. She is bad if you have no other threats on board (obviously), but even then if you play her, she doesn't get killed, play a token dude next turn (like call of the conclave (; ) then populate, you just got yourself a 2-1, which is good against every deck, control or otherwise.
I do agree though that there are different ways to take GW. Mine is an aggressive, synergistic, tokens deck, but I can easily see a GW ramp deck that slams AoS on turn 5 or so. I feel the possible shortcomings of that type of deck right now is that there are only really 8 decent mana ramp cards available (slyvan caryatid and, to a lesser extent, elvish mystic) that are consistent to semi-consistent at best. Mystic dies to anything, and both die to boardwipes, meaning verdict on turn 4 can set you back a long ways if you have 4 lands and a fistful of 5-7 drops. Also, what other fatties would you play? Armada wurm seems pretty good, but what else? And how are you going to stop aggro from killing you without thragtusk? Don't say scavenging ooze, because you have no reliable way to kill creatures/put creatures in GY to abuse the ooze. It would probably help to see a decklist, because I'm interested to see what a GW ramp deck would look like and how you plan on combating aggro.
And again, fleecemane lion is clearly superior to call of the conclave in a vacuum, but with cards that depend on tokens (trostani, rootborn defense, druid's deliverance, sundering growth) I feel it is better. Granted, if I find that the build has enough tokens to reasonably achieve populate without call of the conclave, then you can bet your butt I'm going to switch the two.
I play bant aggro irl and am porting to straight GW for theros standard. Here's my tentative build so far
I disagree with a lot of things in this post. First, the angel is slow, but given enough synergy can be very powerful and worthwhile. Second, rootborn defense is one of the most key, synergistic cards in a selesnya token deck. It's good with any token, as you're usually blanking a removal spell and getting another token (2-1), and it absolutely insane with advent of the wurm. You say this deck has almost no other tricks available, I say you don't know what you're talking about. Selesnya charm, boon satyr, rootborn defense, and especially advent of the wurm are all "tricks" by virtue of being instant speed. And now that we have so many actually decent tricks, the opponent can't assume that 4 mana open is just a advent of wurm, because it could be any of those said tricks. Also, being able to EoT Advent and untap with rootborn defense backup is insanely powerful. Don't knock it before you try it, and if you have tried it and are still knocking it, then you're doing something wrong.
Oh yeah, and Trostani is insane. Walls aggro like no tomorrow, hard to race by gaining 3-5-10+ life by simply playing your deck, and if she isn't responded to immediately she's value city. So why is trostani subpar again? I'll agree with you that fleecemane lion is better than call of the conclave in a vaccum, but the synergy with tokens right now from the last block imho makes call (and aforementioned token based cards) better.
problem with the token route compared to block is that the card pool just got better. Rootborn defense and trostani can be sweet cards but they rely on that critical token amount to work, especially call of the conclave basically as that is the only decent token maker besides voice/selesnya charm and advent of the wurm. Call of the conclave just got worse though because it's outmatched by 3 other twodrops already (fleecemane lion, voice and ooze). So playing heavier on the token theme already means losing power in your other cards basically. I also think rootborn defense and trostani are ppsitioned more poorly now. Rootborn defense is very hard to keep up against anger of the gods for example and agianst many aggro decks it's just too slow. Trostani is quite hard to cast unless you play many guildgates and just sucks against control, it's even a little slow against the superfast RDW lists where a difficult to cast 4-drop that only starts working on turn 5 might not the best (unflinching courage and stuff like fiendslayer paladin in the board are arguably better for these matchups).
To put it short, new cards give a higher oppurtunity cost to the token subtheme that I don't think it's worth it main given how narrow these populate cards are as well. From the board it's fine.
@ Novajoe,
I don't see how you like bow of nylea so much and then actually dislike it in the aggro deck. I've found it a pretty poor card so far, it's just slow. It's a versatile card that is rarely great. Against control especially it sucks hard, all modes are pretty much irrelevant against the +1+1 mode which is insanely slow which is why I think nylea is unplayable main.. Against control it's just acting like a terrible Ajani that costs you mana to activate.. Against aggro it's a bit better since the lifegain is fairly ok then and shooting down phoenix (pretty much the only target for that ability) is fine, it''s still way too slow though. The only place it shines is against other midrange / creature decks where the static deathtouch actually comes up, but still do you want to play it for that? It's another thing why the angel list is just not so great now, there aren't enough good lifegainers to enable it.
Overall I just don't see reasons to go midrangy with this deck, the power for GW lies in the great quality lower at the curve. Making the deck slower only helps for the mirror imo, against control I rather be as fast as possible and against aggro i rather just drop fatties reliably then go more for the lategame. Both the token and angel synergies have the problem that you need to play, in my eyes, weak enablers for just a few cards while you can be playing better stuff. Even more so even if you get those synergies going they still suck agianst control as they just force you to overcommit into sweepers or fall apart against a timely removal. Especially with blood baron being such an immensely difficult roadblock for these colors I find that focussing on speed and cutting all the cute chaff works best.
Thanks for getting this started. GW Aggro is probably what I am looking at starting the meta with, although I am also tempted by UW Control (goodbye Cavern!!!!)
I have three variants I am looking at: Aggro, Token, Ramp Aggro. Each one has advantages and disadvantages, but they share a common core, which is crucial to recognize: Voice of Resurgence Loxodon Smiter Trostani, Slesnya's Voice (Well positioned early for the inevitable mono-red aggro offensive in the first two weeks of the meta.) Advent of the Wurm (A great anti-control card.) Selesnya Charm (Thanks to the Gods, the new best charm.)
The Aggro deck is a nice clean escalation of early threats that play off of the ever-awesome Experiment One.
Soldier of the Pantheon is one of the best 1-drops ever and it has synergy with X1, Trostani, and Archangel.
Fleecemane Lion is really tough, and if you hit its Monstrosity, it is really, really hard to deal with.
Boon Satyr is my second 3-drop choice because 4/2 Flash is just perfect. This works with Advent and X1 and Voice. I definitely considered three other cards in this slot: Witchstalker, which really shines if U and B produce powerful decks and because Hexproof is always strong against control and midrange. Renegade Krasis is a good card and it should evolve frequently. The problem is keeping it alive long enough. Finally, I really, really wanted Fiendslayer Paladin to work, since it has all the qualities I want in this deck, but 1WW makes it completely unreliable turn 3 in a way that 1GG is not in this deck.
The sideboard has elements to cope with aggro and control, and Banisher Priest, Oblivion Ring, and Primeval Bounty give benefits against Midrange decks. I'm not completely sold on Banisher Priest yet, but I'm not sure what else I would put in. Glaring Spotlight is possible, as you really want to use it to force damage through to put that midrange deck down quickly. It is definitely the better card for the token deck.
The Token deck maximizes the populate effects to put a lot of hate on the field and make it very, very hard to remove. There are 5 cards (17 out of 60) that create tokens, and 2 cards (6 out of 60) that populate them. It also really wants to ramp at least a little. The value 1-drops aren't as important here as getting tokens + Trostani + Rootborn.
Elvish Mystic is the only 1 drop, for obvious reasons.
Scavenging Ooze goes into the main since you don't have another 1-drop and you don't really use a 3-drop creature except Smiter.
Rootborn Defenses main has the chance to both protect and populate multiple token sources.
The sideboard switched up to add more populate capability and a little more lifegain. Also, Druid's Deliverance really is a powerhouse against aggro in this deck, with Fog + Populate. Sundering Growth comes in over Oblivion Ring because of Populate, even if it can't stop God cards. Glaring Spotlight is there to end games. With all of the populate, chances are one unblockable swing with everything hexproof ends games on turn 4-5. Plus, given the lack of 1-drops, it fits neatly into the curve.
The Ramp Aggro deckwants to use its whole curve up to a 7. The idea is to trade early damage for big, bruising finishers and more speed than the midrange decks. Actually, this deck skirts the line between Aggro and Midrange Beatdown. You could easily take out Angel of Serenity for a full book of Boon Satyr and move away from the Midrange Beatdown, while removing Satyr for Spear of Heliod pretty much swings the deck into Midrange.
Elvish Mystic + Sylvan Caryatid makes ramp consistent and hitting WWW gets easier. Caryatid is also a heck of a blocker against early aggro.
Fleeceman Lion is just better in this than Call. You can ramp into it's Monstrosity very quickly.
Boon Satyr is still a good aggro card to maximize pressure. If you wanted to go more properly midrange you could argue for 2 Spear of Heliod.
Angel of Serenity is in for the long game. You obviously don't want to see it early, but it is a house of a finisher in this meta.
Primeval Bounty is a no-brainer main since you will have plenty of mana to drop it turn 4. This card can be utterly back-breaking.
The sideboard is a simplified version of the other sideboards. I don't think you need Glaring Spotlight in this.
That seems like a good card in midrange, but not so much in aggro. It is too dependent on gaining life. It is a kind of sick card with Trading Post, but that ia control-oriented card. Maybe some more control-ish Midrange deck?
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problem with the token route compared to block is that the card pool just got better. Rootborn defense and trostani can be sweet cards but they rely on that critical token amount to work, especially call of the conclave basically as that is the only decent token maker besides voice/selesnya charm and advent of the wurm. Call of the conclave just got worse though because it's outmatched by 3 other twodrops already (fleecemane lion, voice and ooze). So playing heavier on the token theme already means losing power in your other cards basically. I also think rootborn defense and trostani are ppsitioned more poorly now. Rootborn defense is very hard to keep up against anger of the gods for example and agianst many aggro decks it's just too slow. Trostani is quite hard to cast unless you play many guildgates and just sucks against control, it's even a little slow against the superfast RDW lists where a difficult to cast 4-drop that only starts working on turn 5 might not the best (unflinching courage and stuff like fiendslayer paladin in the board are arguably better for these matchups).
To put it short, new cards give a higher oppurtunity cost to the token subtheme that I don't think it's worth it main given how narrow these populate cards are as well. From the board it's fine.
Rootborn defense merely relies on having creatures out to be a good card. It doesn't just say populate, it also says creatures you control are indestructible, which is a solid enough effect as it is. It becomes a 2-1 or 3-1 if you have tokens out. Considering I run 29 creatures (with possible 4 more in selesnya charm) I'm not worried about rootborn defense being a dead card, and the possible (and likely) upside of it being a 2-1 or better is too high to ignore (in this deck). Also, call of the conclave is not outclassed by scavenging ooze in this deck, and scavenging ooze is relatively weak in general in GW decks. I bolded this because I can already see people going on about how good scavenging ooze is in general and not in GW. GW has few ways of killing creatures, and no sweepers, and with fewer to no creatures in the GY, scavenging ooze loses value. Also, ooze is not as aggressive as fleecemane lion or call of the conclave, as a 2/2 for 2 on turn 2 isn't nearly as much pressure as a 3/3 for 2, especially if you're trying to curve out. Late game ooze is better, but I'm fine with that trade off as conclave is early aggression and synergy.
Also, RDW has a very hard time against this type of deck because a 3/3 for 2 is a solid blocker that trades or stops with everything they have. Same for Voice of resurgence. Often even if you stabilize against a red deck though, they can just burn you out. Trostani comes in and gains you life and guarantees you won't be burned out, all while being a solid body and being an engine. I honestly don't understand the hate for her, as she's basically like a GW PW for tokens. Yes she doesn't attack for a huge amounts like most GW creatures, but considering how above the curve all the other creatures are, I think having a value creature that's so versatile is quite worth it.
On the draw rootborn defense is too slow against a turn 3 anger of the gods. On the play it's a blowout. With a turn 1 mystic it it becomes a blowout either way. It's a blowout play or draw against supreme verdict (which I think will be the more common sweeper). It's also just incredible with advent of the wurm. it's like a 2 card combo that almost wins you the game, as most players have a hard time dealing with advent EoT with rootborn backup. It's a card that's good enough to sandbag too, like playing turn 5 call of the conclave with rootborn backup. It's a counterspell with the potential to 2-1 and makes all attacks/blocks favorable and will make the opponent make subpar blocks after one blowout, so it becomes a worthwhile bluff too.
Bow is awful. Played some games with it and it's as bad as expected. The best part was the static deathtouch, but it was far too slow. Only tested it in 2 MU's, but it's already getting the ax. I'll probably replace it with 2 dryad militant for more aggression and ease of casting, although solider of pantheon is probably just better, albeit harder to cast turn 1.
I've been playing G/W Aggro since before the rotation and I went as aggressive as possible plus Rancor to good effect against control and having bigger threats than other aggro decks meant a pretty good matchup there too. Here is the new evolution and now I am splashing red.
The red splash so far is giving enough late punch to finish off opponents and also gives access to some good answers out of the board. I used to splash black for Putrefy pre-rotation, and that might prove a stronger splash with the black god if the archangel aggro deck becomes really popular.
I think some builds (namely the Trostani/Archangel decks) could take advantage of having the white god. It reminds me a little of the old Selesnya Guildmage...
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Also, call of the conclave is not outclassed by scavenging ooze in this deck, and scavenging ooze is relatively weak in general in GW decks. I bolded this because I can already see people going on about how good scavenging ooze is in general and not in GW. GW has few ways of killing creatures, and no sweepers, and with fewer to no creatures in the GY, scavenging ooze loses value. Also, ooze is not as aggressive as fleecemane lion or call of the conclave, as a 2/2 for 2 on turn 2 isn't nearly as much pressure as a 3/3 for 2, especially if you're trying to curve out. Late game ooze is better, but I'm fine with that trade off as conclave is early aggression and synergy.
I think this is important. Ooze is not a replacement for either Fleecemane Lion or Call of the Conclave. It is however better than you give it credit for in the mid-late game because it will be our creatures in the graveyard, and the ooze will scavenge the turn it is dropped and present a 4/4, 5/5 or larger by the time it can swing.
Ooze also loves itself some Rootborn. Keep it alive, let their stuff die, make ooze food.
However, for every deck you should be putting in Voice + Fleecemane\Call before you even look at Scavenging Ooze in the main.
The only deck I recommend it main in is the token version because they have only one creature in the 1-drop spot so they can put a 3rd in the 2-drop, which IMO ought to be Ooze, not Fleecemane, for tech. But I could be wrong.
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5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I think this is important. Ooze is not a replacement for either Fleecemane Lion or Call of the Conclave. It is however better than you give it credit for in the mid-late game because it will be our creatures in the graveyard, and the ooze will scavenge the turn it is dropped and present a 4/4, 5/5 or larger by the time it can swing.
Ooze also loves itself some Rootborn. Keep it alive, let their stuff die, make ooze food.
However, for every deck you should be putting in Voice + Fleecemane\Call before you even look at Scavenging Ooze in the main.
The only deck I recommend it main in is the token version because they have only one creature in the 1-drop spot so they can put a 3rd in the 2-drop, which IMO ought to be Ooze, not Fleecemane, for tech. But I could be wrong.
What is the single 1-drop creature GW tokens has? Do you mean single aggressive 1-drop? I'm honestly not even sure what 1-drop you are talking about, as different people are playing different 1-drops, but I assume you mean experiment one? I disagree with that though because I think elvish mystic is a fine 1-drop that helps accelerate into a turn 2 smiter or a turn 3 advent/trostani or double 2-drop.
There are a lot of good 2-drops available, and the "best" one I think should be determined by your build. Fleecemane and voice are the general "best" 2 drops, with call being more synergistic in tokens and ooze being better as a late game threat.
Played 7 games against esper control deck that my friend built (jace and elspeth, removal, revelation, a few inspiration, omen speaker, d sphere, etc) and it was decently tough, but not awful. The MU seemed to depend on how well I could attack with one threat at a time and run him out of answers before he could revelation. I added 2 Ajani, caller of the pride and that helped the MU a lot, as it allowed me to focus on pumping one threat, and play another trick. Playing Advent EoT, having it countered, then playing ajani, giving a centaur token or smiter doublestrike and flying (especially if he was tapped out and I could pump it) would usually push enough damage through to win on the spot or win shortly after. Also, voice and smiter are obviously excellent against them, and it's very easy to catch a counter heavy control deck with it's pants down by playing those two cards and stranding counters in their hands. Here's my current build
Ajani is great in this deck, mostly as a surprise flying double strike trick that wins the game on the spot, but also at allowing you to trade up, or not having to trade at all. He's definitely not a turn 2 or even 3 play though. He's a turn 5 play after flashing in an advent or boon satyr or even a knight token EoT when an opponent is tapped out and then finishing an opponent. Obviously against control you just want to use his +1 ability to ultimate, but he makes it very hard for them to play PW's (which will be played in control) without risking sudden death. Ajani becomes even better against control after SB if you bring in any witchstalkers. Ajani is difficult on the mana, but that's fine, as again, he's a turn 5 play.
I cut a guildgate because it was noticeably slowing me down. I might cut down even more, but I think 2 is fine.
The SB is a very rough sketch, but I know I definitely want 3 druid's deliverance, 1 trostani, and 2 sundering growth. Everything else is good and makes sense against certain MU's, but I'm not yet sure are the best choices. I think witchstalker will be decently good against control (obviously), but also against any deck with a lot of black removal, but only testing will show if he's actually worth the spot. I really wish oblivion ring didn't rotate out /=
Ajani is great in this deck, mostly as a surprise flying double strike trick that wins the game on the spot, but also at allowing you to trade up, or not having to trade at all. He's definitely not a turn 2 or even 3 play though. He's a turn 5 play after flashing in an advent or boon satyr or even a knight token EoT when an opponent is tapped out and then finishing an opponent. Obviously against control you just want to use his +1 ability to ultimate, but he makes it very hard for them to play PW's (which will be played in control) without risking sudden death. Ajani becomes even better against control after SB if you bring in any witchstalkers. Ajani is difficult on the mana, but that's fine, as again, he's a turn 5 play.
Wouldn't Boros Charm be better than Ajani in the control matchup? It gives a guy doublestrike (but not flying) or counters a wrath (as opposed to just placing a counter on one guy) or finishes with instant speed (instead of sorcery speed tokens), not to mention it can kill a PW...
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"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
Wouldn't Boros Charm be better than Ajani in the control matchup? It gives a guy doublestrike (but not flying) or counters a wrath (as opposed to just placing a counter on one guy) or finishes with instant speed (instead of sorcery speed tokens), not to mention it can kill a PW...
Isn't it hard to cast Boros Charm with the given mana base (GW)?
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Isn't it hard to cast Boros Charm with the given mana base (GW)?
Not if you splash for it. I posted my list above which includes a red splash for this and also opens the door for Chained to the Rocks, Destructive Revelry and possibly more if one should choose...
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Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
Wouldn't Boros Charm be better than Ajani in the control matchup? It gives a guy doublestrike (but not flying) or counters a wrath (as opposed to just placing a counter on one guy) or finishes with instant speed (instead of sorcery speed tokens), not to mention it can kill a PW...
Boros charm is a great card if you're splashing red. I'm not. I don't think the manabase is consistent enough to play 3 colors and expect to curve out consistently while also reliably casting the splash cards. If I were to play boros charm it would be in a GWr or GRw midrange deck that plays sylvan caryatid to color fix, but that's a different deck.
On a separate note, is it worth having rest in peace in the SB anymore? It stops some golgari shenaningans, AoS, and Whip of erberos, but I just don't think it will be necessary. Thoughts?
EDIT: Holy crap, I completely forgot kalonia hydra existed! This card is a straight auto include in just about any GW deck as it reads "kill me now or I win the game." I have no idea yet what to cut, or if I should make different deck not focusing on tokens and raise my curve for this guy, but he's definitely worth a spot because he is straight insane.
I like the ajani call on one of the above posters, he seems amazing for his cost and can wipe out all decks that tap out and dont have an answer for him, seems devestating honestly.
Im struggling to decide whether to play this deck or a g/r midrange version both have their merits but which seems more competitive? I expect bais but id like to hear some opinons.
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Hi I'm Infecter4life and ironically I only play GBx decks.
EDIT: Holy crap, I completely forgot kalonian hydra existed! This card is a straight auto include in just about any GW deck as it reads "kill me now or I win the game." I have no idea yet what to cut, or if I should make different deck not focusing on tokens and raise my curve for this guy, but he's definitely worth a spot because he is straight insane.
I don't think Kalonian Hydra and Archangel of Thune belong in the same deck (that's a lot of five drops) and AoT has more synergy with the midrange deck presented in the opening post.
I don't think it quite belongs in the Aggro deck in the opening post either, a five drop without any acceleration is not right in that deck.
I'm guessing that Kalonian Hydra will find its place in a GR midrange deck replacing Thundermaw at the top of the curve.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
I don't think Kalonian Hydra and Archangel of Thune belong in the same deck (that's a lot of five drops) and AoT has more synergy with the midrange deck presented in the opening post.
I don't think it quite belongs in the Aggro deck in the opening post either, a five drop without any acceleration is not right in that deck.
I'm guessing that Kalonian Hydra will find its place in a GR midrange deck replacing Thundermaw at the top of the curve.
I can see it in an aggro deck with elvish mystic, almost like kiblers Gr aggro deck with thundermaw hellkite. Obviously hellkite was better as it had haste, but kalnonia hydra is still pretty good. I can also see him in a GW ramp deck with AoS and armada wurm. I think you're right though that it shouldn't be in a more aggressive build. I had a knee jerk reaction because the card is so strong, but trample isn't nearly as good as haste for a finisher. However, I think it might be strong enough that a GW midrange deck would just be better than an agressive GW deck. Kalonia hydra really is that good.
I can see it in an aggro deck with elvish mystic, almost like kiblers Gr aggro deck with thundermaw hellkite. Obviously hellkite was better as it had haste, but kalnonia hydra is still pretty good.
I agree, I have been trying to envision a GW deck that mimics Kibler's Gruul. But, as you point out, haste is a big issue. Kibler's Gruul had Strangleroot, Flinthoof, Hellrider, and Thundermaw. GW can't come close to matching that right now (neither can GR, but maybe an Elvish Mystic, a Hammer of Purphoros, and a turn 4 hasty Kalonian Hydra might be a thing). But, we're getting sidetracked. Sorry.
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:symg::symw:Archangel Midrange:symg::symw::
5 plains
4 temple garden
4 selesnya guildgate
2 grove of the guardian
1 nykthos, shrine to nyx
4 voice of resurgence
4 fleecemane lion
3 scavenging ooze
4 loxodon smiter
2 banisher priest
2 trostani, selesnya's voice
4 archangel of thune
2 selesnya charm
2 bow of nylea
1 spear of heliod
The deck's biggest strengths are that it destroys just about every type of aggro there is. It's weakness is control, which goes over the top of this deck with supreme verdict and sphinx's revelation.
:symg::symw:GW aggro:symg::symw::
9 plains
4 temple garden
1 selesnya guildgate
4 soldier of the pantheon
4 judge's familiar
4 loxodon smiter
4 voice of resurgence
4 selesnya charm
4 rootborn defenses
4 call of the conclave
1 spear of heliod
This deck is much stronger against control than it's midrange brother, but it's weaker 1 drops don't match up well against most midrange decks looking to go bigger.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
EDIT: Just noticed the first list is only @ 58 cards currently, I can't guess for the life of me what that 2-of is.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
first list is really too clunky I think, angel is quite slow and still hard to set up even if you play some otherwise subpar cards like trostani and bow of nylea to make it happen. I don't think it;s worth investing into at all.
The faster list is much better imo and fairly good. I'd definately play soldier of pantheon over judge's familiar though, the upsides on him are quite good. Boon satyr is also a must imo, fantastic card to play around sweepers and the bestow is really useful especially as this deck has almost no other tricks available. The whole call of the conclave - rootborn defenses thing is not so great now, there are much better 2 drops available than call (fleecemane, voice and ooze) and rootborn defense is a bit clunky still and less needed if you have boon satyr anyway.
4 temple garden
3 selesneya guildgate
9 forest
6 plains
Creatures: 29
4 elvish mystic
4 experiment one
4 voice of resurgence
4 call of the conclave
4 loxodon smiter
3 trostani, selesnya's voice
4 advent of the wurm
2 boon satyr
4 selesnya charm
3 rootborn defense
Legendary enchantments: 2
2 bow of nylea
I hate the guildgates, but they are necessary to some degree to ensure I can actually cast my spells. That said the tempo loss is huge, especially for this deck. Really makes me wish we still had avacyn's pilgrim /=
I disagree with a lot of things in this post. First, the angel is slow, but given enough synergy can be very powerful and worthwhile. Second, rootborn defense is one of the most key, synergistic cards in a selesnya token deck. It's good with any token, as you're usually blanking a removal spell and getting another token (2-1), and it absolutely insane with advent of the wurm. You say this deck has almost no other tricks available, I say you don't know what you're talking about. Selesnya charm, boon satyr, rootborn defense, and especially advent of the wurm are all "tricks" by virtue of being instant speed. And now that we have so many actually decent tricks, the opponent can't assume that 4 mana open is just a advent of wurm, because it could be any of those said tricks. Also, being able to EoT Advent and untap with rootborn defense backup is insanely powerful. Don't knock it before you try it, and if you have tried it and are still knocking it, then you're doing something wrong.
Oh yeah, and Trostani is insane. Walls aggro like no tomorrow, hard to race by gaining 3-5-10+ life by simply playing your deck, and if she isn't responded to immediately she's value city. So why is trostani subpar again? I'll agree with you that fleecemane lion is better than call of the conclave in a vaccum, but the synergy with tokens right now from the last block imho makes call (and aforementioned token based cards) better.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
thanks for the props. the 2 cards left out were selesnya charm. it's fixed now though.
I don't assume my lists are perfect by any means, especially since there's no established meta game to build towards.
the first list is a midrange deck. It's supposed to be somewhat "clunkier" than some other decks in an effort to go over the top of them. Still, the deck has plenty of action in the early game with voice of resurgence, fleecemane lion, and possible T2 loxodon smiter along with scavenging ooze. All that is pretty moot anyhow, since most of the time any life loss early on is going to be mitigated by the massive amount of lifegain the deck provides.
Trostani is anything but sub-par. He populates, gains tons of life, and enables sick plays with archangel of thune. Generally landing a trostani on the board creates impossible combat and racing situations for your opponent. He is a must-kill creature for your opponent every time he hits the field. If he sticks, you win. Granted, he's not that great against control, but you board him out in those matchups.
bow of nylea seems weak at first glance, but playing with it would give other impressions. It has subtle, but very powerful synergies with the rest of the deck. Giving all of your creatures deathtouch gives a lot of extra value to your voices and mystics. The gain life mode works wonders with archangel, and the counter mode is great for combat situations or saving your creatures from burn. Or against control you can keep growing a monsrous fleecemane lion, since most control decks outside of esper won't have many(if any) ways to deal with a monstrous lion. The last mode doesn't come up much, but I have had moments facing down a jace memory adept loving the fact that I could simply shuffle 4 cards in a turn and decrease their milling clock by a wide margin.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I really like boon satyr in this deck, but I don't think bow of nylea is really where this deck wants to be. I also don't know about cutting judge's familiar, but I guess it's fine until control finds it's roots. I might try this version -4 elvish mystic, +4 soldier of pantheon, -2 bow, +2 spear of heliod, -1 trostani, +2 boon of satyr. The mana is probably horrible with my setup, so yours is probably better. just something I want to try.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
She has a place in SB though.
Also, I wouldn't trust in the token strategy. That GW tokens is almost identical to GW tokens in RTR block and in RTR block that deck isn't strong enough to be considered a tier 1.5 (it's mostly a tier 2.0). You seriously don't want to play 3/3 conclave over the lion...
Also one of the bets ways to go with GW is going hard ramping (add some carystids in top of the elves) and get Angel of Salvation. That card is the best cmc6+ creature in the format by a mile. It is powerful removal in GW colors while also getting cards back for you.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
part of the reason this deck is so dominant over aggro decks is because of trostani.
while this deck may need to adapt later in the format should control become a dominant force, which would more than likely involve dropping trostani (and probably archangel as well) I would rather simply play to dominate aggressive strategies atm.
also, I agree that the aggro strategy isn't that powerful a strategy in a vacuum, still, it is very powerful vs control strategies and gains several cards that help make it much better against the midrange strategies that it struggled against in block. I figured it was worth mentioning in the primer at least to demonstrate the difference between the 2 decks.
I'm not entirely sold on an angel of serenity ramp strategy yet. Many of the control strategies are adapting more counterspells with the absence of cavern of souls, so resolving a 7 mana spell could be hard to do, especially since you have to drop some of your early pressure to make room for sylvan caryatid to make playing the angel any kind of consistent. Also, I don't want to be relying on angel of serenity against mono red, a powerful deck that will more than likely make up a large portion of the competitive metagame right off the bat.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I'm not sure how good bow will be. I think it will probably be subpar to terrible, but I want to at least try it out. I'd rather have ajani, caller of the pride in that spot but I don't think the deck can reliably hit WW turn 2 or even 3. That said the bow does a poor imitation of ajani in giving +1 counters and deathtouch as a static ability is just about perfect here, as between advent of the wurm and selesnya charm I have 8 forms of trample, and trample + death touch is usually a good combination. Granted it might be overkill, but again, I wanna try it, although I think I probably will replace it with the better (more consistent) boon satyr. I think soldier of pantheon is fine in a super aggressive version of the deck, but I feel GW has better things to play, making elvish mystic (ramp) or experiment one (which gets huge) more optimal. I'd rather have a turn 2 smiter or turn 3 advent than a turn 1 soldier of pantheon.
I didn't play rtr block constructed, but I find it hard to believe tokens wasn't a deck, especially after dragon's maze gave us voice of resurgence. Either way, I've played the deck and it has a lot of synergy an natural aggression, which tends to be a winning combination. I also don't agree that trostani is overkill. She is what makes any red based aggressive MU so great.
Control doesn't always have the answer in hand against a given threat. I play UWr and UW control online currently, and very frequently you need to stall or play damage control until you can find the right answer. If you can land trostani with any token on board and the control deck doesn't have an answer right then, you can add more pressure to the board without having to actually spend a card. Therefore when the control player does find an answer, you have more cards in hand to immediately bounce back and produce more threats. Ergo trostani is not really that bad against control. She is bad if you have no other threats on board (obviously), but even then if you play her, she doesn't get killed, play a token dude next turn (like call of the conclave (; ) then populate, you just got yourself a 2-1, which is good against every deck, control or otherwise.
I do agree though that there are different ways to take GW. Mine is an aggressive, synergistic, tokens deck, but I can easily see a GW ramp deck that slams AoS on turn 5 or so. I feel the possible shortcomings of that type of deck right now is that there are only really 8 decent mana ramp cards available (slyvan caryatid and, to a lesser extent, elvish mystic) that are consistent to semi-consistent at best. Mystic dies to anything, and both die to boardwipes, meaning verdict on turn 4 can set you back a long ways if you have 4 lands and a fistful of 5-7 drops. Also, what other fatties would you play? Armada wurm seems pretty good, but what else? And how are you going to stop aggro from killing you without thragtusk? Don't say scavenging ooze, because you have no reliable way to kill creatures/put creatures in GY to abuse the ooze. It would probably help to see a decklist, because I'm interested to see what a GW ramp deck would look like and how you plan on combating aggro.
And again, fleecemane lion is clearly superior to call of the conclave in a vacuum, but with cards that depend on tokens (trostani, rootborn defense, druid's deliverance, sundering growth) I feel it is better. Granted, if I find that the build has enough tokens to reasonably achieve populate without call of the conclave, then you can bet your butt I'm going to switch the two.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
problem with the token route compared to block is that the card pool just got better. Rootborn defense and trostani can be sweet cards but they rely on that critical token amount to work, especially call of the conclave basically as that is the only decent token maker besides voice/selesnya charm and advent of the wurm. Call of the conclave just got worse though because it's outmatched by 3 other twodrops already (fleecemane lion, voice and ooze). So playing heavier on the token theme already means losing power in your other cards basically. I also think rootborn defense and trostani are ppsitioned more poorly now. Rootborn defense is very hard to keep up against anger of the gods for example and agianst many aggro decks it's just too slow. Trostani is quite hard to cast unless you play many guildgates and just sucks against control, it's even a little slow against the superfast RDW lists where a difficult to cast 4-drop that only starts working on turn 5 might not the best (unflinching courage and stuff like fiendslayer paladin in the board are arguably better for these matchups).
To put it short, new cards give a higher oppurtunity cost to the token subtheme that I don't think it's worth it main given how narrow these populate cards are as well. From the board it's fine.
@ Novajoe,
I don't see how you like bow of nylea so much and then actually dislike it in the aggro deck. I've found it a pretty poor card so far, it's just slow. It's a versatile card that is rarely great. Against control especially it sucks hard, all modes are pretty much irrelevant against the +1+1 mode which is insanely slow which is why I think nylea is unplayable main.. Against control it's just acting like a terrible Ajani that costs you mana to activate.. Against aggro it's a bit better since the lifegain is fairly ok then and shooting down phoenix (pretty much the only target for that ability) is fine, it''s still way too slow though. The only place it shines is against other midrange / creature decks where the static deathtouch actually comes up, but still do you want to play it for that? It's another thing why the angel list is just not so great now, there aren't enough good lifegainers to enable it.
Overall I just don't see reasons to go midrangy with this deck, the power for GW lies in the great quality lower at the curve. Making the deck slower only helps for the mirror imo, against control I rather be as fast as possible and against aggro i rather just drop fatties reliably then go more for the lategame. Both the token and angel synergies have the problem that you need to play, in my eyes, weak enablers for just a few cards while you can be playing better stuff. Even more so even if you get those synergies going they still suck agianst control as they just force you to overcommit into sweepers or fall apart against a timely removal. Especially with blood baron being such an immensely difficult roadblock for these colors I find that focussing on speed and cutting all the cute chaff works best.
Thanks for getting this started. GW Aggro is probably what I am looking at starting the meta with, although I am also tempted by UW Control (goodbye Cavern!!!!)
I have three variants I am looking at: Aggro, Token, Ramp Aggro. Each one has advantages and disadvantages, but they share a common core, which is crucial to recognize:
Voice of Resurgence
Loxodon Smiter
Trostani, Slesnya's Voice (Well positioned early for the inevitable mono-red aggro offensive in the first two weeks of the meta.)
Advent of the Wurm (A great anti-control card.)
Selesnya Charm (Thanks to the Gods, the new best charm.)
The Aggro deck is a nice clean escalation of early threats that play off of the ever-awesome Experiment One.
Soldier of the Pantheon is one of the best 1-drops ever and it has synergy with X1, Trostani, and Archangel.
Fleecemane Lion is really tough, and if you hit its Monstrosity, it is really, really hard to deal with.
Boon Satyr is my second 3-drop choice because 4/2 Flash is just perfect. This works with Advent and X1 and Voice. I definitely considered three other cards in this slot: Witchstalker, which really shines if U and B produce powerful decks and because Hexproof is always strong against control and midrange. Renegade Krasis is a good card and it should evolve frequently. The problem is keeping it alive long enough. Finally, I really, really wanted Fiendslayer Paladin to work, since it has all the qualities I want in this deck, but 1WW makes it completely unreliable turn 3 in a way that 1GG is not in this deck.
The sideboard has elements to cope with aggro and control, and Banisher Priest, Oblivion Ring, and Primeval Bounty give benefits against Midrange decks. I'm not completely sold on Banisher Priest yet, but I'm not sure what else I would put in. Glaring Spotlight is possible, as you really want to use it to force damage through to put that midrange deck down quickly. It is definitely the better card for the token deck.
GW Aggro
4 Experiment One
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Boon Satyr
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Archangel of Thune
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Advent of the Wurm
Lands 24
9 Forest
6 Plains
1 Grove of the Guardian
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
4 Rootborn Defenses
3 Unflinching Courage
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Banisher Priest
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Primeval Bounty
The Token deck maximizes the populate effects to put a lot of hate on the field and make it very, very hard to remove. There are 5 cards (17 out of 60) that create tokens, and 2 cards (6 out of 60) that populate them. It also really wants to ramp at least a little. The value 1-drops aren't as important here as getting tokens + Trostani + Rootborn.
Elvish Mystic is the only 1 drop, for obvious reasons.
Scavenging Ooze goes into the main since you don't have another 1-drop and you don't really use a 3-drop creature except Smiter.
Call of the Conclave is obvious.
Rootborn Defenses main has the chance to both protect and populate multiple token sources.
The sideboard switched up to add more populate capability and a little more lifegain. Also, Druid's Deliverance really is a powerhouse against aggro in this deck, with Fog + Populate. Sundering Growth comes in over Oblivion Ring because of Populate, even if it can't stop God cards. Glaring Spotlight is there to end games. With all of the populate, chances are one unblockable swing with everything hexproof ends games on turn 4-5. Plus, given the lack of 1-drops, it fits neatly into the curve.
GW Tokens
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Call of the Conclave
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Archangel of Thune
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Rootborn Defenses
4 Advent of the Wurm
Lands 24
9 Forest
6 Plains
1 Grove of the Guardian
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1 Archangel of Thune
2 Glaring Spotlight
4 Unflinching Courage
3 Druid's Deliverance
2 Sundering Growth
1 Primeval Bounty
The Ramp Aggro deckwants to use its whole curve up to a 7. The idea is to trade early damage for big, bruising finishers and more speed than the midrange decks. Actually, this deck skirts the line between Aggro and Midrange Beatdown. You could easily take out Angel of Serenity for a full book of Boon Satyr and move away from the Midrange Beatdown, while removing Satyr for Spear of Heliod pretty much swings the deck into Midrange.
Elvish Mystic + Sylvan Caryatid makes ramp consistent and hitting WWW gets easier. Caryatid is also a heck of a blocker against early aggro.
Fleeceman Lion is just better in this than Call. You can ramp into it's Monstrosity very quickly.
Boon Satyr is still a good aggro card to maximize pressure. If you wanted to go more properly midrange you could argue for 2 Spear of Heliod.
Angel of Serenity is in for the long game. You obviously don't want to see it early, but it is a house of a finisher in this meta.
Primeval Bounty is a no-brainer main since you will have plenty of mana to drop it turn 4. This card can be utterly back-breaking.
The sideboard is a simplified version of the other sideboards. I don't think you need Glaring Spotlight in this.
GW Ramp Aggro
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Boon Satyr
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
3 Archangel of Thune
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Advent of the Wurm
1 Primeval Bounty
Lands 24
9 Forest
6 Plains
1 Grove of the Guardian
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Unflinching Courage
4 Rootborn Defenses
3 Oblivion Ring
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Rootborn defense merely relies on having creatures out to be a good card. It doesn't just say populate, it also says creatures you control are indestructible, which is a solid enough effect as it is. It becomes a 2-1 or 3-1 if you have tokens out. Considering I run 29 creatures (with possible 4 more in selesnya charm) I'm not worried about rootborn defense being a dead card, and the possible (and likely) upside of it being a 2-1 or better is too high to ignore (in this deck). Also, call of the conclave is not outclassed by scavenging ooze in this deck, and scavenging ooze is relatively weak in general in GW decks. I bolded this because I can already see people going on about how good scavenging ooze is in general and not in GW. GW has few ways of killing creatures, and no sweepers, and with fewer to no creatures in the GY, scavenging ooze loses value. Also, ooze is not as aggressive as fleecemane lion or call of the conclave, as a 2/2 for 2 on turn 2 isn't nearly as much pressure as a 3/3 for 2, especially if you're trying to curve out. Late game ooze is better, but I'm fine with that trade off as conclave is early aggression and synergy.
Also, RDW has a very hard time against this type of deck because a 3/3 for 2 is a solid blocker that trades or stops with everything they have. Same for Voice of resurgence. Often even if you stabilize against a red deck though, they can just burn you out. Trostani comes in and gains you life and guarantees you won't be burned out, all while being a solid body and being an engine. I honestly don't understand the hate for her, as she's basically like a GW PW for tokens. Yes she doesn't attack for a huge amounts like most GW creatures, but considering how above the curve all the other creatures are, I think having a value creature that's so versatile is quite worth it.
On the draw rootborn defense is too slow against a turn 3 anger of the gods. On the play it's a blowout. With a turn 1 mystic it it becomes a blowout either way. It's a blowout play or draw against supreme verdict (which I think will be the more common sweeper). It's also just incredible with advent of the wurm. it's like a 2 card combo that almost wins you the game, as most players have a hard time dealing with advent EoT with rootborn backup. It's a card that's good enough to sandbag too, like playing turn 5 call of the conclave with rootborn backup. It's a counterspell with the potential to 2-1 and makes all attacks/blocks favorable and will make the opponent make subpar blocks after one blowout, so it becomes a worthwhile bluff too.
Bow is awful. Played some games with it and it's as bad as expected. The best part was the static deathtouch, but it was far too slow. Only tested it in 2 MU's, but it's already getting the ax. I'll probably replace it with 2 dryad militant for more aggression and ease of casting, although solider of pantheon is probably just better, albeit harder to cast turn 1.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
3 Dryad Militant
3 Experiment One
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Call of the Conclave
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Advent of the Wurm
4 Boros Charm
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
5 Plains
5 Forest
3 Destructive Revelry
2 Rootborn Defenses
7 open slots
The red splash so far is giving enough late punch to finish off opponents and also gives access to some good answers out of the board. I used to splash black for Putrefy pre-rotation, and that might prove a stronger splash with the black god if the archangel aggro deck becomes really popular.
I think some builds (namely the Trostani/Archangel decks) could take advantage of having the white god. It reminds me a little of the old Selesnya Guildmage...
I think this is important. Ooze is not a replacement for either Fleecemane Lion or Call of the Conclave. It is however better than you give it credit for in the mid-late game because it will be our creatures in the graveyard, and the ooze will scavenge the turn it is dropped and present a 4/4, 5/5 or larger by the time it can swing.
Ooze also loves itself some Rootborn. Keep it alive, let their stuff die, make ooze food.
However, for every deck you should be putting in Voice + Fleecemane\Call before you even look at Scavenging Ooze in the main.
The only deck I recommend it main in is the token version because they have only one creature in the 1-drop spot so they can put a 3rd in the 2-drop, which IMO ought to be Ooze, not Fleecemane, for tech. But I could be wrong.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
What is the single 1-drop creature GW tokens has? Do you mean single aggressive 1-drop? I'm honestly not even sure what 1-drop you are talking about, as different people are playing different 1-drops, but I assume you mean experiment one? I disagree with that though because I think elvish mystic is a fine 1-drop that helps accelerate into a turn 2 smiter or a turn 3 advent/trostani or double 2-drop.
There are a lot of good 2-drops available, and the "best" one I think should be determined by your build. Fleecemane and voice are the general "best" 2 drops, with call being more synergistic in tokens and ooze being better as a late game threat.
Played 7 games against esper control deck that my friend built (jace and elspeth, removal, revelation, a few inspiration, omen speaker, d sphere, etc) and it was decently tough, but not awful. The MU seemed to depend on how well I could attack with one threat at a time and run him out of answers before he could revelation. I added 2 Ajani, caller of the pride and that helped the MU a lot, as it allowed me to focus on pumping one threat, and play another trick. Playing Advent EoT, having it countered, then playing ajani, giving a centaur token or smiter doublestrike and flying (especially if he was tapped out and I could pump it) would usually push enough damage through to win on the spot or win shortly after. Also, voice and smiter are obviously excellent against them, and it's very easy to catch a counter heavy control deck with it's pants down by playing those two cards and stranding counters in their hands. Here's my current build
4 temple garden
2 selesneya guildgate
10 forest
6 plains
Creatures: 29
4 elvish mystic
4 experiment one
4 voice of resurgence
4 call of the conclave
4 loxodon smiter
2 trostani, selesnya's voice
4 advent of the wurm
3 boon satyr
4 selesnya charm
3 rootborn defense
PW: 2
2 ajani, caller of the pride
1 trostani, voice of selesnya
4 druid's deliverance
3 witchstalker
1 boon satyr
2 sundering growth
2 fiendslayer paladin
1 ajani, caller of the pride
1 glare of heresy
Ajani is great in this deck, mostly as a surprise flying double strike trick that wins the game on the spot, but also at allowing you to trade up, or not having to trade at all. He's definitely not a turn 2 or even 3 play though. He's a turn 5 play after flashing in an advent or boon satyr or even a knight token EoT when an opponent is tapped out and then finishing an opponent. Obviously against control you just want to use his +1 ability to ultimate, but he makes it very hard for them to play PW's (which will be played in control) without risking sudden death. Ajani becomes even better against control after SB if you bring in any witchstalkers. Ajani is difficult on the mana, but that's fine, as again, he's a turn 5 play.
I cut a guildgate because it was noticeably slowing me down. I might cut down even more, but I think 2 is fine.
The SB is a very rough sketch, but I know I definitely want 3 druid's deliverance, 1 trostani, and 2 sundering growth. Everything else is good and makes sense against certain MU's, but I'm not yet sure are the best choices. I think witchstalker will be decently good against control (obviously), but also against any deck with a lot of black removal, but only testing will show if he's actually worth the spot. I really wish oblivion ring didn't rotate out /=
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
Wouldn't Boros Charm be better than Ajani in the control matchup? It gives a guy doublestrike (but not flying) or counters a wrath (as opposed to just placing a counter on one guy) or finishes with instant speed (instead of sorcery speed tokens), not to mention it can kill a PW...
Isn't it hard to cast Boros Charm with the given mana base (GW)?
Not if you splash for it. I posted my list above which includes a red splash for this and also opens the door for Chained to the Rocks, Destructive Revelry and possibly more if one should choose...
Boros charm is a great card if you're splashing red. I'm not. I don't think the manabase is consistent enough to play 3 colors and expect to curve out consistently while also reliably casting the splash cards. If I were to play boros charm it would be in a GWr or GRw midrange deck that plays sylvan caryatid to color fix, but that's a different deck.
On a separate note, is it worth having rest in peace in the SB anymore? It stops some golgari shenaningans, AoS, and Whip of erberos, but I just don't think it will be necessary. Thoughts?
EDIT: Holy crap, I completely forgot kalonia hydra existed! This card is a straight auto include in just about any GW deck as it reads "kill me now or I win the game." I have no idea yet what to cut, or if I should make different deck not focusing on tokens and raise my curve for this guy, but he's definitely worth a spot because he is straight insane.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
Im struggling to decide whether to play this deck or a g/r midrange version both have their merits but which seems more competitive? I expect bais but id like to hear some opinons.
I don't think Kalonian Hydra and Archangel of Thune belong in the same deck (that's a lot of five drops) and AoT has more synergy with the midrange deck presented in the opening post.
I don't think it quite belongs in the Aggro deck in the opening post either, a five drop without any acceleration is not right in that deck.
I'm guessing that Kalonian Hydra will find its place in a GR midrange deck replacing Thundermaw at the top of the curve.
I can see it in an aggro deck with elvish mystic, almost like kiblers Gr aggro deck with thundermaw hellkite. Obviously hellkite was better as it had haste, but kalnonia hydra is still pretty good. I can also see him in a GW ramp deck with AoS and armada wurm. I think you're right though that it shouldn't be in a more aggressive build. I had a knee jerk reaction because the card is so strong, but trample isn't nearly as good as haste for a finisher. However, I think it might be strong enough that a GW midrange deck would just be better than an agressive GW deck. Kalonia hydra really is that good.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
I agree, I have been trying to envision a GW deck that mimics Kibler's Gruul. But, as you point out, haste is a big issue. Kibler's Gruul had Strangleroot, Flinthoof, Hellrider, and Thundermaw. GW can't come close to matching that right now (neither can GR, but maybe an Elvish Mystic, a Hammer of Purphoros, and a turn 4 hasty Kalonian Hydra might be a thing). But, we're getting sidetracked. Sorry.