Dispel and Quicken are both a waste of time in my opinion. Also Niv_magus is terrible. You have to throw away spells you should be using elsewhere just to give him 2 crappy counters, and he dies to removal. He's like the opposite of pyromancer. My card draw comes from 4 auguries, 2 jace, 3 magma jet, and 24 lands
Dispel and Quicken are both a waste of time in my opinion. Also Niv_magus is terrible. You have to throw away spells you should be using elsewhere just to give him 2 crappy counters, and he dies to removal. He's like the opposite of pyromancer. My card draw comes from 4 auguries, 2 jace, 3 magma jet, and 24 lands
Dispel and Quicken are both a waste of time in my opinion. Also Niv_magus is terrible. You have to throw away spells you should be using elsewhere just to give him 2 crappy counters, and he dies to removal. He's like the opposite of pyromancer. My card draw comes from 4 auguries, 2 jace, 3 magma jet, and 24 lands
How has jace been working out? Obviously he's good, but do you usually have enough spells to back him up?
Dispel isn't bad in the sideboard, and I still think Quicken can work in this build as essential a free spell trigger for our guys. Quicken isn't really card draw as it doesn't create card advantage.
Not sure about Jace, AoT though. He's unquestionably good but I'm not sure if he belongs in this deck. I could try taking the Quickens out and putting him in though.
Agree with Nivmagus, but an explanation on the other could work.
Jace has been sweet. Like I've said before, they usually piss away their removal (Dreadbore, Hero's DF) on my other creatures before Jace comes down. Also Frostburn Weird and Pyro with tokens protect him very well from creatures. This deck is always about making the opponent choose the lesser of two evils..
Quicken is a waste of a card. It's completely not worth it just to play as a trigger. It doesn't do anything. Why wouldn't you just play more shock or Mizzium skin if you want a cheap trigger?
Quicken is different then shock or mizzium skin because it replaces itself. It feeds chimera, pyro, guttersnipe, it helps make land drops, etc. Shock uses up a whole card for a measely two damage.
I think I will try Jace out in the deck. My worry with him is that I'd rather be drawing an instant or sorcery to go with creatures versus a planeswalker. But he might be worth it. Ok a side note, I actually pulled a second one from a pack yesterday. Good pull.
Out of curiosity, do you play only one stormbreath for a gameplay reason or is it a budget reason? Also why doesn't this deck play more turn//burn?
It's a game play reason. I actually have 3 stormbreaths in my possession. I feel like I never want to see more than one Stormbreath per game. I dig so deep with Steam Augury that I usually find him if I need him. I'm usually putting on so much pressure with Gutter, Pyro, and Frostburn, that I don't need more than 1. Also, I like keeping my creature casting cost low so I can protect them or play spells after casting them. But I imagine having more Stormys could maybe help in beating Green decks. Also, I play 2 Turn//Burn main and 1 in side. And running 4 Swine Curse in side.
Guildgate is too slow. I need my land drops every turn, and I need them untapped. As long as I have UUR by t3 I am fine, and that happens 95% of the time.
Guttersnipe and Cyclops are too slow. While Frostburn is interesting, I don't want to be tapping mana to attack with him, and he'd simply be a 1/4 blocker, in which case I would just run Omenspeaker. Which I don't plan on doing.
Phoenix is an idea for discard fodder to Charm, but I can get enough raw CA to take care of it. Its not going to be doing the big damage we want to.
Hypersonic is my poor man's Stormbreath (that and all of my Stormbreaths are in Rakdos Deck Wins, and I just seem to have 20 Sonic's lying around. Gotta go fast).
Inspiration is BadSteamAugury2.0. Charm and Augury are four-ofs obviously. Mortars is to make sure I'm not getting my ass whupped while I set up Spellheart. Opportunity refills my hand and gives me the remaining burn I need to end the game. Not a lot of burn in here, just 5 strict burn spells, but its more focused on Chimera busting face. Plan typically goes like t1 nothin t2 pyromancer/izzet charm t3 burn things/counterflux t4 steam augury/inspiration t5 hypersonic t6 chimera and counterflux backup. Swing for 8 with hypersonic and 9 to 10 with chimera, and the last few points are covered by burn and pyromancer.
Rift is so sweet because it's literally the only way to deal with detention sphere/chained to the rocks, and comes in as additional utility vs Desecration Demon and Reckoner.
I don't get all the Counterflux love, can someone explain to me what this card does? Is it just being used as an uncounterable counter, or is the overload actually relevant? I just don't ever see people putting more than one spell on the stack at a time.
I don't get all the Counterflux love, can someone explain to me what this card does? Is it just being used as an uncounterable counter, or is the overload actually relevant? I just don't ever see people putting more than one spell on the stack at a time.
Yea, its for playing against Esper, U/W, Grixis decks which are abundant. So they can't counter your counter, which usually comes down to winning the game. You must stop Sphinx's Rev and Rakdos's Return or you will lose.
Also, I agree the guildgates are too slow. I used to play 2, but I had to up them because I was getting screwed enough to do it.
I feel like I'm going to be tied up to a stake and burned alive for this comment, but I feel kind of underwhelmed with Izzet Charm. It is versatile, but often times I find myself wishing I had something a little more powerful at just one job.
I feel like I'm going to be tied up to a stake and burned alive for this comment, but I feel kind of underwhelmed with Izzet Charm. It is versatile, but often times I find myself wishing I had something a little more powerful at just one job.
No, you're right. It is card disadvantage, creature-only low quality burn, and a poor situational counterspell. But the fact that its so versatile, that it allows us to dig for more or slow the opponent down a bit or defend yourself is what makes it good. I wish it were better. If it were 3 damage to target creature, counter target noncreature spell unless they pay 3 and draw 2 discard 1, then I think it would be a fine card. Many of the other charms have 3 modes that are each normally 2 mana spells. Golgari charm in particular is like this. Boros charm we all know is the nuts. Simic charm is actually insane (just has trouble finding the right decks). Point is, all the charms have fairly good abilities on them, abilities that people would be fine paying two mana (and even at sorcery speed) on. What makes them constructed playable is the instant speed and versatility. Izzet charm does not have fairly costed abilities. Draw two discard two we saw for one mana at sorcery speed with flashback on Faithless looting. Discard a card, draw two cards we saw for two mana sorcery speed in wild guess. A wild guess izzet charm would be much better than what it is now. We also saw desperate ravings, a draw 2 discard one at random with flashback for 2 mana at instant speed (keep in mind flashback usually bumps up normal mana cost - see Think Twice). As for the burn, shock is better at one mana is able to hit players. The counter is pitiful, looking at mana leak. Mana leak is non multicolor, hits everything, and requires them to pay three. And spell pierce is the same thing at one mana!
So you're not wrong, its normal to feel underwhelmed by izzet charm. but its the best UR has for instant speed draw at 2 mana, and can function as other cards if need be.
So you're not wrong, its normal to feel underwhelmed by izzet charm. but its the best UR has for instant speed draw at 2 mana, and can function as other cards if need be.
You still run 4 though?
Would most people here agree that it still warrants holding 4 of our slots?
Would most people here agree that it still warrants holding 4 of our slots?
I would because its cheap, fills the grave with instants for chimera, can help us dig for chimera, can protect chimera, and gives more fuel for pyromancer. And eliminates potential pyromancer token blockers to get in for damage. Its good here because of those reasons, and the deck wants all those things to happen. And there really isn't any other good instant speed draw/utility spell that has such synergy with the rest of the deck, save steam augury.
For most UR decks I would hesitate to include it, depending on what exactly you're doing. I would not run it in Nivix Blitz for example, nor in straight-up control. There are other, better cards a two mana for control. Same with aggro. Here though, I think its a very good addition to the deck.
Cards can be inherently good or bad compared to other cards, but when they're all you've got to fill a vital role or just have so much synergy with the rest of the deck its worth it to put it in more often than not.
I was wondering what people think about running jace, ral zarek, aetherling/niv-mizzet, anger of the gods and other controlly cards in the sideboard so in game 2 we can really come out of left field?
Yeah, the Izzet Charm's modes individually are pretty underwhelming. But they' e saved me plenty of times. Mostly the counter on it. I know you might say, "why not just run negate?". Negate is only useful for it's counter, if they have nothing to counter then it's junk. But the primary use for izzet charm I've found is to protect my creatures, as I need them to win.
Also, Guttersnipe is a bit slow, but I think he's worth it. With the right protection he gets a lot of damage through, damage that can't be countered either.
I was wondering what people think about running jace, ral zarek, aetherling/niv-mizzet, anger of the gods and other controlly cards in the sideboard so in game 2 we can really come out of left field?
Anger kills all of your own creatures, except Frostburn Wierd. That's not something you want to be doing, especially considering that between Wierd, Young Pyromancer and a metric ton of removal aggro should already be a very favorable match up.
I have considered some walkers/Aetherling in the side against control, but i would be very scared of loosing them to Steam Augury, also i think Aetherling has poor synergy with the draw-go style of the deck as he is very mana hungry during combat.
Niv i think is too expensive and in my experience we don't need a mana sink, i very rarely find myself with too much mana and nothing to do with it, and if i did i think i would rather play Hammer of Purphoros against control, it's cheaper and doesn't die to doom blade.
Keep in mind that these are just my thoughts. Other, more experienced, players may be of a different opinion, and even if they are not you could still try it and see if it works for you.
Sorry, I skipped over a vital detail in my post. The idea would be to swap out all our creatures save for the weird. The idea being that in game 2 any aggro deck would feel safe over committing to the field and then we can land an anger of the gods followed by a jace to maintain a defensive position.
Sorry, I skipped over a vital detail in my post. The idea would be to swap out all our creatures save for the weird. The idea being that in game 2 any aggro deck would feel safe over committing to the field and then we can land an anger of the gods followed by a jace to maintain a defensive position.
I don't think you need help against aggro. It's been a pretty reasonable match up for me. I;ve found that the deck has trouble against faster midrange decks, namely green/x. Which decks specifically are you having trouble against?
I'm not sure if my deck belongs in this thread, as it doesn't really play much like a burn deck at all. It's definitely more of a control deck that tries to grind out for the late game, but it -can- have reasonably aggressive draws.
It started out as a more generic combo/aggro deck with Guttersnipes, Weirds, and a bunch more burn but I kept hitting a brick wall against both control and the bigger aggro deck, so this is where I landed.
Prognostic Sphinx has been a complete allstar. I highly suggest trying him over Stormbreath Dragon. His ability to self protect has carried games time and time again. He blanks 75%+ of the creatures you'll see and only dies to Supreme Verdict. While Stormbreath is a faster clock, there's no rush with this set-up so the resiliency is key.
While I've been grinding a lot of matches I haven't had nearly enough time against the field to know what exact matchup breakdowns, my first 20-30 matches have all seemed winnable, if not favourable.
this.
How has jace been working out? Obviously he's good, but do you usually have enough spells to back him up?
Not sure about Jace, AoT though. He's unquestionably good but I'm not sure if he belongs in this deck. I could try taking the Quickens out and putting him in though.
Agree with Nivmagus, but an explanation on the other could work.
Quicken is a waste of a card. It's completely not worth it just to play as a trigger. It doesn't do anything. Why wouldn't you just play more shock or Mizzium skin if you want a cheap trigger?
I think I will try Jace out in the deck. My worry with him is that I'd rather be drawing an instant or sorcery to go with creatures versus a planeswalker. But he might be worth it. Ok a side note, I actually pulled a second one from a pack yesterday. Good pull.
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
Chimera is typically a 2 turn clock when I put him out. He's good, so is the dragon. I run two Chimeras and one Stormbreath.
Out of curiosity, do you play only one stormbreath for a gameplay reason or is it a budget reason? Also why doesn't this deck play more turn//burn?
It's a game play reason. I actually have 3 stormbreaths in my possession. I feel like I never want to see more than one Stormbreath per game. I dig so deep with Steam Augury that I usually find him if I need him. I'm usually putting on so much pressure with Gutter, Pyro, and Frostburn, that I don't need more than 1. Also, I like keeping my creature casting cost low so I can protect them or play spells after casting them. But I imagine having more Stormys could maybe help in beating Green decks. Also, I play 2 Turn//Burn main and 1 in side. And running 4 Swine Curse in side.
4 Frostburn Weird
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Spellheart Chimera
2 Aetherling
Spells 19
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Steam Augury
2 Rapid Hybrization
3 Turn//Burn
1 Izzet Charm
3 Ratchet Bomb
Planeswalker 2
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Ral Zarek
Lands 25
4 Izzet Guildgate
4 Steam Vents
9 Mountain
7 Island
1 Mutavault
2 Pithing Needle
3 Izzet Charm
2 Counterflux
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Ral Zarek
2 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Guttersnipe
2 Spellheart Chimera
1 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Magma Jet
3 Lightning Strike
2 Shock
2 Turn//Burn
3 Syncopate
2 Dissolve
1 Counterflux
4 Steam Augury
4 Izzet Guildgates
4 Steam Vents
1 Mutavault
8 Mountain
7 Island
2 Tidebinder Mage
1 Turn//Burn
2 Counterflux
4 Curse of the Swine
4 Essence Scatter
2 Mizzium Skin
Thinking about running 3 Counterflux over Dissolve main to save sideboard slots.
Land (24)
4 Steam Vents
9 Mountain
Guildgate is too slow. I need my land drops every turn, and I need them untapped. As long as I have UUR by t3 I am fine, and that happens 95% of the time.
Creatures (10)
2 Hypersonic Dragon
4 Spellheart Chimera
Guttersnipe and Cyclops are too slow. While Frostburn is interesting, I don't want to be tapping mana to attack with him, and he'd simply be a 1/4 blocker, in which case I would just run Omenspeaker. Which I don't plan on doing.
Phoenix is an idea for discard fodder to Charm, but I can get enough raw CA to take care of it. Its not going to be doing the big damage we want to.
Hypersonic is my poor man's Stormbreath (that and all of my Stormbreaths are in Rakdos Deck Wins, and I just seem to have 20 Sonic's lying around. Gotta go fast).
Not Creatures (26)
4 Steam Augury
4 Izzet Charm
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Turn // Burn
3 Magma Jet
2 Lightning Strike
3 Counterflux
1 Opportunity
Inspiration is BadSteamAugury2.0. Charm and Augury are four-ofs obviously. Mortars is to make sure I'm not getting my ass whupped while I set up Spellheart. Opportunity refills my hand and gives me the remaining burn I need to end the game. Not a lot of burn in here, just 5 strict burn spells, but its more focused on Chimera busting face. Plan typically goes like t1 nothin t2 pyromancer/izzet charm t3 burn things/counterflux t4 steam augury/inspiration t5 hypersonic t6 chimera and counterflux backup. Swing for 8 with hypersonic and 9 to 10 with chimera, and the last few points are covered by burn and pyromancer.
Rift is so sweet because it's literally the only way to deal with detention sphere/chained to the rocks, and comes in as additional utility vs Desecration Demon and Reckoner.
Side
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Hypersonic Dragon
2 Essence Scatter
2 Negate
3 Electrickery
4 Mizzium Skin
Mizzium Skin protects my Chimera. Electrickery for aggro and annoying one-drops.
Yea, its for playing against Esper, U/W, Grixis decks which are abundant. So they can't counter your counter, which usually comes down to winning the game. You must stop Sphinx's Rev and Rakdos's Return or you will lose.
Also, I agree the guildgates are too slow. I used to play 2, but I had to up them because I was getting screwed enough to do it.
No, you're right. It is card disadvantage, creature-only low quality burn, and a poor situational counterspell. But the fact that its so versatile, that it allows us to dig for more or slow the opponent down a bit or defend yourself is what makes it good. I wish it were better. If it were 3 damage to target creature, counter target noncreature spell unless they pay 3 and draw 2 discard 1, then I think it would be a fine card. Many of the other charms have 3 modes that are each normally 2 mana spells. Golgari charm in particular is like this. Boros charm we all know is the nuts. Simic charm is actually insane (just has trouble finding the right decks). Point is, all the charms have fairly good abilities on them, abilities that people would be fine paying two mana (and even at sorcery speed) on. What makes them constructed playable is the instant speed and versatility. Izzet charm does not have fairly costed abilities. Draw two discard two we saw for one mana at sorcery speed with flashback on Faithless looting. Discard a card, draw two cards we saw for two mana sorcery speed in wild guess. A wild guess izzet charm would be much better than what it is now. We also saw desperate ravings, a draw 2 discard one at random with flashback for 2 mana at instant speed (keep in mind flashback usually bumps up normal mana cost - see Think Twice). As for the burn, shock is better at one mana is able to hit players. The counter is pitiful, looking at mana leak. Mana leak is non multicolor, hits everything, and requires them to pay three. And spell pierce is the same thing at one mana!
So you're not wrong, its normal to feel underwhelmed by izzet charm. but its the best UR has for instant speed draw at 2 mana, and can function as other cards if need be.
You still run 4 though?
Would most people here agree that it still warrants holding 4 of our slots?
I would because its cheap, fills the grave with instants for chimera, can help us dig for chimera, can protect chimera, and gives more fuel for pyromancer. And eliminates potential pyromancer token blockers to get in for damage. Its good here because of those reasons, and the deck wants all those things to happen. And there really isn't any other good instant speed draw/utility spell that has such synergy with the rest of the deck, save steam augury.
For most UR decks I would hesitate to include it, depending on what exactly you're doing. I would not run it in Nivix Blitz for example, nor in straight-up control. There are other, better cards a two mana for control. Same with aggro. Here though, I think its a very good addition to the deck.
Cards can be inherently good or bad compared to other cards, but when they're all you've got to fill a vital role or just have so much synergy with the rest of the deck its worth it to put it in more often than not.
Also, Guttersnipe is a bit slow, but I think he's worth it. With the right protection he gets a lot of damage through, damage that can't be countered either.
Anger kills all of your own creatures, except Frostburn Wierd. That's not something you want to be doing, especially considering that between Wierd, Young Pyromancer and a metric ton of removal aggro should already be a very favorable match up.
I have considered some walkers/Aetherling in the side against control, but i would be very scared of loosing them to Steam Augury, also i think Aetherling has poor synergy with the draw-go style of the deck as he is very mana hungry during combat.
Niv i think is too expensive and in my experience we don't need a mana sink, i very rarely find myself with too much mana and nothing to do with it, and if i did i think i would rather play Hammer of Purphoros against control, it's cheaper and doesn't die to doom blade.
Keep in mind that these are just my thoughts. Other, more experienced, players may be of a different opinion, and even if they are not you could still try it and see if it works for you.
I don't think you need help against aggro. It's been a pretty reasonable match up for me. I;ve found that the deck has trouble against faster midrange decks, namely green/x. Which decks specifically are you having trouble against?
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Spellheart Chimera
2 Prognostic Sphinx
Spells 25
4 Quicken
3 Magma Jet
3 Lightning Strike
2 Izzet Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Turn//Burn
2 Essence Scatter
2 Dissolve
1 Counterflux
3 Steam Augury
1 Thoughtflare
1 Opportunity
4 Izzet Guildgate
4 Steam Vents
7 Mountain
8 Island
2 Mutavault
2 Dispel
2 Pithing Needle
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Magma Jet
3 Negate
2 Turn//Burn
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Curse of the Swine
I'm not sure if my deck belongs in this thread, as it doesn't really play much like a burn deck at all. It's definitely more of a control deck that tries to grind out for the late game, but it -can- have reasonably aggressive draws.
It started out as a more generic combo/aggro deck with Guttersnipes, Weirds, and a bunch more burn but I kept hitting a brick wall against both control and the bigger aggro deck, so this is where I landed.
Prognostic Sphinx has been a complete allstar. I highly suggest trying him over Stormbreath Dragon. His ability to self protect has carried games time and time again. He blanks 75%+ of the creatures you'll see and only dies to Supreme Verdict. While Stormbreath is a faster clock, there's no rush with this set-up so the resiliency is key.
While I've been grinding a lot of matches I haven't had nearly enough time against the field to know what exact matchup breakdowns, my first 20-30 matches have all seemed winnable, if not favourable.