* Selesnya Charm acts as a pseudo fog against aggro (killing an early pesky creature with the token can prevent enough damage in the long run to warrant fog status), or as removal for fatties and the gods.
* I honestly like the build running loads of lands + into the wilds.
* Heroes' Reunion is another pseudo fog to deal agains RDW. It also allows to fog when there is no pressure on the board (against, say midrange) and utilize our mana more efficiently
* Renounce the guilds and Warleader's Helix are there as my meta will probably be filled with Smiters and domris
* I run three sweepers md (verdict + 2 cyclonic rifts) and gaze of granite on the board. This number may vary
Aurius, I noticed you never boarded in more than two Slaughter Games. In your experience, would you ever need more than two copies? I'm down to two in my SB.
I never boarded more than two because at the time i was only running two these are the updates i made after those matches. I feel in the u/w post match i definitely want more than 2 they are backbreaking against the deck.
I haven't been following this discussion recently, forgive me if I have overlooked anything, but what do you guys think of Into The Wilds? It slows down your tempo a lot especially on turn 4, is the upside worth it? You get to drop 2 guildgates per turn ideally.
I tried Running an into the wilds build of the deck for several weeks, the ability to play multiple lands per turn is nice on paper but it very rarely ever added up to card advantage in practice. There were many time it was just a dead card.
I think into the wilds is a card that can be played in this deck!
I play 4 of them with 28 Lands.
4x Maze End
2x of every Gate
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
Into the wilds main purpose is to make sure that you draw non-land cards when you need them. Nothing is worse when you need a Fog and get a land.
With into the wilds in play you can look at the card, if it is not a land you have the choice: do I want this card? If not just use Maze End to shuffle.
I also play 3 Azorius Charm. It slows down aggro and more important, when I have more then one into the wilds out I can use the charm to draw a card and profit from the second trigger of into the wilds.
Into the wilds looks exceptionally good on paper, Having played severing games with it though it failed to perform nearly as well as it should.
into the wilds looks like a massive do nothing to me. on turn 4/5 you want to be either wrathing or keeping up fog mana, and playing a 4 mana enchantment that doesn't do anything when you play it just seems horrible.
i am also terrified of ashiok if i build this, so i'm wondering if a mono-removal build featuring hero's downfall and dreadbore would be good, since you have the maximum amount of ways to deal with it.
Into the Wild is AMAZING. It does everything I need. The real deal with this deck is that we want BOTH a land and a fog every draw step. With Into the wild it is possible. Of course on turn 4/5 we would rather wrath or fog to not die, but it's the first thing I want on the board after one of my wraths. Adding 3 Forests, since with ItW it's not such a pain to have this much lands, allows me to have 4 mana on turn 4, so a turn 5 Into the Wild is perfect and with no risks.
Eventually, I could simply tell that I've won EVERY game that such an enchantment touched my field. (I even added a 3rd copy, but I think that 2x is the way to go).
Also, I don't understand all this fear about Ashiok. First, I don't think that he will find a place in competitive decks. Second, we have more than 1 win-con. Actually, I've won more games with Crackling Perimeter than Maze. So, in case Ashik will see usage, I'd suggest to cut out a Maze, maybe (for those of you who play 4x) and add a 2nd or 3rd Perimeter, even in the SB. Or adding more Jace, milling is good.
The format will start with aggro decks being heavily played, necessitating the removal of secondary win-conditions from the main deck, to increase consistency. Most aggro decks can just kill you if you don't have a counter to their aggression, but they don't have an answer to your win condition. Focusing on those two streamlines your game play, making it much easier to win game one, and giving you a lot more wiggle room against Burning Earth game 2.
Streamlining the deck to fight against aggro leaves you more open to Ashiok, but not anymore than you would have been. Since Ashiok interfere's heavily with Maze's End, it gives the control player a lot of power over you. If you played secondary win-conditions, your opponent just answers them, because they can just ignore the majority of the deck. They won't ever counter a Gatecreeper or a Fog, but will have plenty of answers for anything relevant you can muster. All you can do is tweak the numbers of Gates, and hope for the best game one, then bring in a lot of answers or threats from the sideboard.
It's not foolish to assume Ashiok is one of the biggest threats to the deck, as it was already featured in a Top 8 list at this weekends SCG event. It sucks against Aggro, but is a win condition against everything else. What is foolish is removing any copies of Maze's End. It's the deck main win condition, no matter what you play. It removes lands each turn, improving your draws a non-trivial amount, and each turn you don't have one on the field is another turn you need have a Fog. If you drop down to three, you increase the chance of running out of answers. It only takes missing one Fog to lose against most Aggro decks, and if you run more non-Fogs, it compounds.
Keeping aggressive decks in mind, I've been testing this list, with lands focusing on main colors, instead two of each. Focusing on the main colors allows you to cast spells earlier, allowing you to cast them when you want, instead of when you can. Also, running more copies of some lands gives you more wiggle room against Ashiok. With some lands as singles, you can grab them first, knowing your opponent has less of a chance of blanking your other lands.
The hardest part was figuring out the sideboard, because you want as many cards as possible to not be dead against Control, but you run so many Fogs to have an easy game against aggro.
Against control, I remove all the Fogs except for Druid's Deliverance, because of it's interaction with Swan Song, which counters basically anything; if they have it, they will bring it in, so might as well keep the one Fog that isn't dead. I used to run counterspells, but I kind of realized I was the aggressor, so I found running more threats from the sideboard was a good game plan.
Against aggro, I bring out Divination, and Into the Wilds, because more often than not, you want to be playing something instead of playing something to dig for something. In their place, I bring in Anger of the Gods, and Detention Sphere, to answer their aggression with harder answers, and to answer their answers, like Burning Earth and Pithing Needle, the bane of this deck. Rounding out the siding is either two Bow of Nylea (one replacing Elixir), because it counters your opponents early damage, and creates more cushions points to play your mass removal without fearing being burned out.
Not sure about Horizon Chimera, but it is a considerable clock against Control, after they likely remove their answers to creatures.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I've got a couple of questions regarding this deck.
Most of these lists are 5 color, and yet they run zero color fixing, don't you get color-screwed all the time?
Also, how does the deck run, considering that almost every land ETB tapped?
The lands are 5 color naturally. You tilt towards your gate colors, or use chromatic lantern to not care. On the ETB issue, you treat yourself as if you're always a turn behind and make your caed choices accordingly.
I prefer instants and flash over all others to be more reactive, as this deck plays more efficiently that way.
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MTG Junky... First packs being a starter of each 4th Edition and Ice Age. Good Grief, I've been playing since 1995? Where does the time go!
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this is mtgs, where occam's razor is so blunt it can't cut jello any more.
Sad too see no turbo fog results from both the tcg and scg open
I feel this deck is too risky to play in the first tournament of a format. We're all about having all the answers, and in an unknown format, it's hard to answer everything. After this tourney, we've got a better idea of what we need to answer. G/R Midrange, Mono Red Aggro, U/W(/B) control, R/W/B midrange, and G/W Aggro/midrange seem to be the better decks that have come out of the first couple of tournaments. Some talk is being made by pros about other decks that could be good: R/B Devotion midrange, Bant flash control, etc. Ashiok will probably see more play.
I think Syncopate deserves a spot, especially in the side, maybe in the main. What seems to hurt this deck most is an early Ashiok, a turn-4 Fanatic of Mogis, and Rakdos's Return. These plays can all be stopped, for value, w/ a Syncopate. Thoughts?
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""Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est"
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
I've got a couple of questions regarding this deck.
Most of these lists are 5 color, and yet they run zero color fixing, don't you get color-screwed all the time?
Also, how does the deck run, considering that almost every land ETB tapped?
Not if you build correctly.
The deck itself is actually more of a 3 color deck which runs slash cards of the other two colors- this is why you'll frequently see the manabase not being equal, but rather being biased towards Green, White and Blue.
You need to be sure to not be afraid of mulligans, as in your opening hand you'll almost always want to have 3 gates, one producing green, one producing white, and one producing blue... though the green and white production is key, and you'll want 2-3 of your fogs.
So long as you have turn 2 access to green, you're typically able to effectively fog for a good while. Depending on what you're playing against, turn 4 Verdicts enable turn 5 Urban Evolutions, which fill your hand and frequently accelerate you a good deal, all while restocking your grip.
Most of the non-green, blue or white cards you see in these builds are things you really don't want to be playing until you've stablized with your fogs or have wrathed the board, so they're typically turn 5+ plays, at which point it's far easier to craft your manabase, as by the time you reach six lands, you can keep up fog mana and activate the maze... and an active maze should mean no mana problems ever again. (if you are still having mana problems, you should reconsider choices).
Into the wilds just seem riskier to me because they seem like horrible top decks... when you're into the late game, sitting there with 8 gates or nine gates and an active maze, but with nothing in hand but gates, drawing into an Into the Wilds would be just about the worst feeling ever. Any fog likely lets you win, Urban Evolution or Sphinx revolution likely draws you that fog or two you need, and a supreme verdict likely solves the problems for enough turns to let you finish out.
However, if you're at that point and draw into an into the wilds, you just lose.
I won't dispute that an active Into the Wilds can feel pretty good, but I just can't think of I time where I would rather be playing it than a Supreme Verdict or Urban Evolution.
Here's a quick update of the list I've been running. It's been performing pretty well, and it now has maindeck answers to Ashiok and other planeswalkers before turn 6.
I've been enjoying success in my playtesting with this. Before this revision, I still lost to Ashiok and Rakdos's Return, especially in G1. Now, I'm okay giving up some ground G1 against control decks if I expect the format to be almost purely aggro at whatever tourney I may be playing, but I think keeping some answers maindeck against control is a good thing. Syncopate is our friend here. It allows us to counter a T3 Ashiok when we're on the play, and can stop both opposing Sphinx's Revelations and Rakdos's Returns rather easily. And, perhaps most importantly, it exiles, meaning they can't use Whip of Erebos to bring back their Grey Merchant or Fanatic of Mogis.
I think Into the Wilds can work, but only with a large amount of scry. I've found it to be much too inconsistent without any library manipulation when I'm running less than 28-29 lands. I would rather just run more removal and card draw than Into the Wilds in this deck, but I can see how it could work for some.
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""Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est"
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
I'm just getting into this deck guys. I see this discussion about Into the Wilds, which sounds really interesting and cool! My first initial thoughts about it is that something that lets us set up our library would be good.
Can any of you more experienced pilots think of anything that would enable this? Omenspeaker appears to be the best option, but is there anything else worth testing?
Do we really like Urban Evolution? Like, from 1 to 5 stars, how much do they need? I'm trying now a new build with none of them and I'm not finding any problem in not having them. I'm not missing them all that much...
Urban Evolution, for me, has been nearly as good as Sphinx's Revelation. Playing an additional land speeds up our win condition, which can be seen as equivalent to gaining life in some respects. And it's more efficient at 5 mana. I think it's an excellent play post-wrath. But, I feel my list seems to be going in a different direction than many of the rest of them here. Whenever I want to add a card, I immediately reach for a fog variant to cut.
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""Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est"
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
Urban Evolution, for me, has been nearly as good as Sphinx's Revelation. Playing an additional land speeds up our win condition, which can be seen as equivalent to gaining life in some respects. And it's more efficient at 5 mana. I think it's an excellent play post-wrath. But, I feel my list seems to be going in a different direction than many of the rest of them here. Whenever I want to add a card, I immediately reach for a fog variant to cut.
I've found myself doing this same thing on several occasions. I am constantly looking for ways to modify my list so that i can run maze's end without needing to sacrifice 12-16 slots for fogs. I would rather have more outright impact spells in the deck. I'm slowly getting it to where i want it to be but it still needs some fine tuning.
I've found myself doing this same thing on several occasions. I am constantly looking for ways to modify my list so that i can run maze's end without needing to sacrifice 12-16 slots for fogs. I would rather have more outright impact spells in the deck. I'm slowly getting it to where i want it to be but it still needs some fine tuning.
The control version is a different deck that i feell deserves a different thread. In a month or so, we can start looking at how to build that, but in this undefined early meta i think fogging is probably the better play.
The control version is a different deck that i feell deserves a different thread. In a month or so, we can start looking at how to build that, but in this undefined early meta i think fogging is probably the better play.
I feel my list is still a "fog" list. I may not be running 12-16 fog effects, but I consider a wrath effect to be the equivalent of 2 fogs with the upside of them potentially running out of threats. But, if you'd prefer I didn't discuss my list here, I can take my leave.
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""Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est"
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
Made some more adjustments, I'm starting to like where i'm getting with this. As the format starts to smooth out and we see a decline in some of the aggro decks i may lower the fog effect count a little more to add in more value spells.
I'd have to say that slaughter games is probably my most sideboarded card, depending on how the meta shifts it may gain a maindeck slot or two down the road should control take over again.
I've found in testing that ashiok really doesn't give me all that much trouble. Game one is a bit rough since i only have Jace to rely if she nails one of my gates i need but it hasn't stopped me from pulling out a win anyway. After board i haven't lost a game to it yet.
Made some more adjustments, I'm starting to like where i'm getting with this. As the format starts to smooth out and we see a decline in some of the aggro decks i may lower the fog effect count a little more to add in more value spells.
I'd have to say that slaughter games is probably my most sideboarded card, depending on how the meta shifts it may gain a maindeck slot or two down the road should control take over again.
I've found in testing that ashiok really doesn't give me all that much trouble. Game one is a bit rough since i only have Jace to rely if she nails one of my gates i need but it hasn't stopped me from pulling out a win anyway. After board i haven't lost a game to it yet.
can you fit a 1x of crackling perimeter as an alternate win condition?
how do you do against a BR control deck
I have to ask: why do you need scry effects to make Into the Wilds a good card? If you ask me, just it making sure you never topdeck a land (or at least more rarely, I suppose...there could always be two top) is decent enough. It cuts through dead draws straight into more of the cards you want...well, beyond the gates that is. It effect isn't immediate and it's not exciting if it's not doing anything, sure, but it doesn't really need to be exciting to do its job does it? And you're in for the long haul anyways.
I have to ask: why do you need scry effects to make Into the Wilds a good card? If you ask me, just it making sure you never topdeck a land (or at least more rarely, I suppose...there could always be two top) is decent enough. It cuts through dead draws straight into more of the cards you want...well, beyond the gates that is. It effect isn't immediate and it's not exciting if it's not doing anything, sure, but it doesn't really need to be exciting to do its job does it? And you're in for the long haul anyways.
I don't think that Into the Wilds is an inherently strong card. I think its a card that is effected largely by anything that may amplify its power. Running 28 lands is one, and incorporating it into a deck that thrives (and wins) off having a large amount of lands is another. Those are each conditions currently met. I was just trying to thinking of how to amplify its power from further. Scrying was the first and most obvious option that came to my mind.
I'm just getting into this deck guys. I see this discussion about Into the Wilds, which sounds really interesting and cool! My first initial thoughts about it is that something that lets us set up our library would be good.
Can any of you more experienced pilots think of anything that would enable this? Omenspeaker appears to be the best option, but is there anything else worth testing?
can you fit a 1x of crackling perimeter as an alternate win condition?
how do you do against a BR control deck
I could easily swap out something for a crackling perimeter as a alternate win condition, though i personally don't feel it's necessary to have. Currently i am running 3 different win conditions between the main/sideboard adding a fourth seems unnecessary to me.
B/R control doesn't have any way to really stop us from doing what we want to do unless they land a decent rakdos return which doesn't happen often. When they do I'm usually holding a full grip of cards and they are hitting 2-3 of them(them resolving a return for 7 is almost never going to happen). The only other problem card in their deck is Sire of Insanity which shouldn't ever resolve. After sideboard I am even better positioned to deal with anything they have that I feel is a problem.
I could easily swap out something for a crackling perimeter as a alternate win condition, though i personally don't feel it's necessary to have. Currently i am running 3 different win conditions between the main/sideboard adding a fourth seems unnecessary to me.
B/R control doesn't have any way to really stop us from doing what we want to do unless they land a decent rakdos return which doesn't happen often. When they do I'm usually holding a full grip of cards and they are hitting 2-3 of them(them resolving a return for 7 is almost never going to happen). The only other problem card in their deck is Sire of Insanity which shouldn't ever resolve. After sideboard I am even better positioned to deal with anything they have that I feel is a problem.
whats your SB in/out plan vs (out of curiosity)
mono red, rdw, gw, uw control, esper and rb control
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4 Maze's End
2 Azorius Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Druid's Deliverance
4 Riot Control
4 Urban Evolution
3 Into the Wilds
2 Cyclonic Rift
1 Treasured Find
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Heroes' Reunion
1 Renounce the Guilds
2 Warleader's Helix
This is the list im thinkering of.
* Selesnya Charm acts as a pseudo fog against aggro (killing an early pesky creature with the token can prevent enough damage in the long run to warrant fog status), or as removal for fatties and the gods.
* I honestly like the build running loads of lands + into the wilds.
* Heroes' Reunion is another pseudo fog to deal agains RDW. It also allows to fog when there is no pressure on the board (against, say midrange) and utilize our mana more efficiently
* Renounce the guilds and Warleader's Helix are there as my meta will probably be filled with Smiters and domris
* I run three sweepers md (verdict + 2 cyclonic rifts) and gaze of granite on the board. This number may vary
*
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
I never boarded more than two because at the time i was only running two these are the updates i made after those matches. I feel in the u/w post match i definitely want more than 2 they are backbreaking against the deck.
I tried Running an into the wilds build of the deck for several weeks, the ability to play multiple lands per turn is nice on paper but it very rarely ever added up to card advantage in practice. There were many time it was just a dead card.
Rakdos return sire of insanity
Into the wilds looks exceptionally good on paper, Having played severing games with it though it failed to perform nearly as well as it should.
i am also terrified of ashiok if i build this, so i'm wondering if a mono-removal build featuring hero's downfall and dreadbore would be good, since you have the maximum amount of ways to deal with it.
The format will start with aggro decks being heavily played, necessitating the removal of secondary win-conditions from the main deck, to increase consistency. Most aggro decks can just kill you if you don't have a counter to their aggression, but they don't have an answer to your win condition. Focusing on those two streamlines your game play, making it much easier to win game one, and giving you a lot more wiggle room against Burning Earth game 2.
Streamlining the deck to fight against aggro leaves you more open to Ashiok, but not anymore than you would have been. Since Ashiok interfere's heavily with Maze's End, it gives the control player a lot of power over you. If you played secondary win-conditions, your opponent just answers them, because they can just ignore the majority of the deck. They won't ever counter a Gatecreeper or a Fog, but will have plenty of answers for anything relevant you can muster. All you can do is tweak the numbers of Gates, and hope for the best game one, then bring in a lot of answers or threats from the sideboard.
It's not foolish to assume Ashiok is one of the biggest threats to the deck, as it was already featured in a Top 8 list at this weekends SCG event. It sucks against Aggro, but is a win condition against everything else. What is foolish is removing any copies of Maze's End. It's the deck main win condition, no matter what you play. It removes lands each turn, improving your draws a non-trivial amount, and each turn you don't have one on the field is another turn you need have a Fog. If you drop down to three, you increase the chance of running out of answers. It only takes missing one Fog to lose against most Aggro decks, and if you run more non-Fogs, it compounds.
Keeping aggressive decks in mind, I've been testing this list, with lands focusing on main colors, instead two of each. Focusing on the main colors allows you to cast spells earlier, allowing you to cast them when you want, instead of when you can. Also, running more copies of some lands gives you more wiggle room against Ashiok. With some lands as singles, you can grab them first, knowing your opponent has less of a chance of blanking your other lands.
4 Maze's End
3 Azorius Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Into the Wild
4 Divination
Stall
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Saruli Gatekeepers
4 Defend the Hearth
4 Druid's Deliverance
4 Fog
4 Riot Control
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Bow of Nylea
2 Pithing Needle
2 Horizon Chimera
3 Crackling Perimeter
3 Detention Sphere
3 Anger of the Gods
The hardest part was figuring out the sideboard, because you want as many cards as possible to not be dead against Control, but you run so many Fogs to have an easy game against aggro.
Against control, I remove all the Fogs except for Druid's Deliverance, because of it's interaction with Swan Song, which counters basically anything; if they have it, they will bring it in, so might as well keep the one Fog that isn't dead. I used to run counterspells, but I kind of realized I was the aggressor, so I found running more threats from the sideboard was a good game plan.
Against aggro, I bring out Divination, and Into the Wilds, because more often than not, you want to be playing something instead of playing something to dig for something. In their place, I bring in Anger of the Gods, and Detention Sphere, to answer their aggression with harder answers, and to answer their answers, like Burning Earth and Pithing Needle, the bane of this deck. Rounding out the siding is either two Bow of Nylea (one replacing Elixir), because it counters your opponents early damage, and creates more cushions points to play your mass removal without fearing being burned out.
Not sure about Horizon Chimera, but it is a considerable clock against Control, after they likely remove their answers to creatures.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
The lands are 5 color naturally. You tilt towards your gate colors, or use chromatic lantern to not care. On the ETB issue, you treat yourself as if you're always a turn behind and make your caed choices accordingly.
I prefer instants and flash over all others to be more reactive, as this deck plays more efficiently that way.
I feel this deck is too risky to play in the first tournament of a format. We're all about having all the answers, and in an unknown format, it's hard to answer everything. After this tourney, we've got a better idea of what we need to answer. G/R Midrange, Mono Red Aggro, U/W(/B) control, R/W/B midrange, and G/W Aggro/midrange seem to be the better decks that have come out of the first couple of tournaments. Some talk is being made by pros about other decks that could be good: R/B Devotion midrange, Bant flash control, etc. Ashiok will probably see more play.
I think Syncopate deserves a spot, especially in the side, maybe in the main. What seems to hurt this deck most is an early Ashiok, a turn-4 Fanatic of Mogis, and Rakdos's Return. These plays can all be stopped, for value, w/ a Syncopate. Thoughts?
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
3 Maze's End
2 Azorius Guildgate
2 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Saruli Gatekeepers
Planewalkers
2 Vraska the Unseen
Spells
4 Defend the Hearth
4 Druid's Deliverance
4 Fog
4 Riot Control
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Detention Sphere
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Urban Evolution
3 Crackling Perimeter
3 Negate
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dispel
2 Saruli Gatekeepers
2 Psychic Spiral
Testing the Vraskas, not sure about the sideboard
Not if you build correctly.
The deck itself is actually more of a 3 color deck which runs slash cards of the other two colors- this is why you'll frequently see the manabase not being equal, but rather being biased towards Green, White and Blue.
You need to be sure to not be afraid of mulligans, as in your opening hand you'll almost always want to have 3 gates, one producing green, one producing white, and one producing blue... though the green and white production is key, and you'll want 2-3 of your fogs.
So long as you have turn 2 access to green, you're typically able to effectively fog for a good while. Depending on what you're playing against, turn 4 Verdicts enable turn 5 Urban Evolutions, which fill your hand and frequently accelerate you a good deal, all while restocking your grip.
Most of the non-green, blue or white cards you see in these builds are things you really don't want to be playing until you've stablized with your fogs or have wrathed the board, so they're typically turn 5+ plays, at which point it's far easier to craft your manabase, as by the time you reach six lands, you can keep up fog mana and activate the maze... and an active maze should mean no mana problems ever again. (if you are still having mana problems, you should reconsider choices).
Into the wilds just seem riskier to me because they seem like horrible top decks... when you're into the late game, sitting there with 8 gates or nine gates and an active maze, but with nothing in hand but gates, drawing into an Into the Wilds would be just about the worst feeling ever. Any fog likely lets you win, Urban Evolution or Sphinx revolution likely draws you that fog or two you need, and a supreme verdict likely solves the problems for enough turns to let you finish out.
However, if you're at that point and draw into an into the wilds, you just lose.
I won't dispute that an active Into the Wilds can feel pretty good, but I just can't think of I time where I would rather be playing it than a Supreme Verdict or Urban Evolution.
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Crackling Perimeter
2 Dimir Guildgate
2 Druid's Deliverance
2 Far//Away
4 Fog
1 Forest
3 Gatecreeper Vine
2 Golgari Guildgate
1 Gruul Guildgate
2 Inspiration
1 Island
2 Izzet Guildgate
4 Maze's End
3 Merciless Eviction
2 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Plains
1 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Riot Control
2 Saruli Gatekeepers
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Syncopate
3 Urban Evolution
2 Crackling Perimeter
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Dissolve
1 Fade Into Antiquity
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Pithing Needle
1 Saruli Gatekeepers
2 Slaughter Games
1 Syncopate
I've been enjoying success in my playtesting with this. Before this revision, I still lost to Ashiok and Rakdos's Return, especially in G1. Now, I'm okay giving up some ground G1 against control decks if I expect the format to be almost purely aggro at whatever tourney I may be playing, but I think keeping some answers maindeck against control is a good thing. Syncopate is our friend here. It allows us to counter a T3 Ashiok when we're on the play, and can stop both opposing Sphinx's Revelations and Rakdos's Returns rather easily. And, perhaps most importantly, it exiles, meaning they can't use Whip of Erebos to bring back their Grey Merchant or Fanatic of Mogis.
I think Into the Wilds can work, but only with a large amount of scry. I've found it to be much too inconsistent without any library manipulation when I'm running less than 28-29 lands. I would rather just run more removal and card draw than Into the Wilds in this deck, but I can see how it could work for some.
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
Can any of you more experienced pilots think of anything that would enable this? Omenspeaker appears to be the best option, but is there anything else worth testing?
Urban Evolution, for me, has been nearly as good as Sphinx's Revelation. Playing an additional land speeds up our win condition, which can be seen as equivalent to gaining life in some respects. And it's more efficient at 5 mana. I think it's an excellent play post-wrath. But, I feel my list seems to be going in a different direction than many of the rest of them here. Whenever I want to add a card, I immediately reach for a fog variant to cut.
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
I've found myself doing this same thing on several occasions. I am constantly looking for ways to modify my list so that i can run maze's end without needing to sacrifice 12-16 slots for fogs. I would rather have more outright impact spells in the deck. I'm slowly getting it to where i want it to be but it still needs some fine tuning.
The control version is a different deck that i feell deserves a different thread. In a month or so, we can start looking at how to build that, but in this undefined early meta i think fogging is probably the better play.
I feel my list is still a "fog" list. I may not be running 12-16 fog effects, but I consider a wrath effect to be the equivalent of 2 fogs with the upside of them potentially running out of threats. But, if you'd prefer I didn't discuss my list here, I can take my leave.
(They can kill you, but the legalities of eating you are quite a bit dicier).
Here is my current updated list:
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Riot Control
4 Fog
4 Aetherize
4 Dissolve
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Inspiration
2 Urban Evolution
2 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Elixir of Immortality
Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, memory Adept
Land (25)
4 Maze's End
2 Plains
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
1 Azorius Guildgate
1 Boros Guildgate
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Izzet Guildgate
1 Orzhov Guildgate
3 Slaughter Games
3 Wear // Tear
3 Pithing Needle
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Selesnya charm
2 Detention Sphere
I'd have to say that slaughter games is probably my most sideboarded card, depending on how the meta shifts it may gain a maindeck slot or two down the road should control take over again.
I've found in testing that ashiok really doesn't give me all that much trouble. Game one is a bit rough since i only have Jace to rely if she nails one of my gates i need but it hasn't stopped me from pulling out a win anyway. After board i haven't lost a game to it yet.
can you fit a 1x of crackling perimeter as an alternate win condition?
how do you do against a BR control deck
Is what I do.
I don't think that Into the Wilds is an inherently strong card. I think its a card that is effected largely by anything that may amplify its power. Running 28 lands is one, and incorporating it into a deck that thrives (and wins) off having a large amount of lands is another. Those are each conditions currently met. I was just trying to thinking of how to amplify its power from further. Scrying was the first and most obvious option that came to my mind.
Prognostic Sphinx :3
I could easily swap out something for a crackling perimeter as a alternate win condition, though i personally don't feel it's necessary to have. Currently i am running 3 different win conditions between the main/sideboard adding a fourth seems unnecessary to me.
B/R control doesn't have any way to really stop us from doing what we want to do unless they land a decent rakdos return which doesn't happen often. When they do I'm usually holding a full grip of cards and they are hitting 2-3 of them(them resolving a return for 7 is almost never going to happen). The only other problem card in their deck is Sire of Insanity which shouldn't ever resolve. After sideboard I am even better positioned to deal with anything they have that I feel is a problem.
whats your SB in/out plan vs (out of curiosity)
mono red, rdw, gw, uw control, esper and rb control