having a hard time coming up with a solid decklist with no info on the meta
that being said from the cards we have available in standard I think R is weak for Control and that 3 colors might not work if Burning Earth is popular
we obviously have some awesome U cards and the 2nd strongest is W followed closely by B and honestly I am not an esper fan but I do think that would be where its at if you were to go 3 colors
things to consider:
I like red in control decks, as they have decent draw for the cost of blue and red, other then Sphinx's Revelation they have the only draw that i feel is actually worth it, i really like Thoughtflare, i feel Steam Augury is decent but i was told it was a U/R Fact or Fiction, so it just feel like eh for that reason. Stormbreath Dragon is a great win con, burn is always good, and Chain to the Rock is my favorite removal in standard from what i have play tested. I am going to have to play test red more in my control deck to find out if it is as good as i feel it could be. This is just my feelings right now after the play testing i have done, which isnt a ridiculous amount, but it isnt a small amount.
If you bothered to read a few of the other posts in this thread you may know that!
I've read most of these posts, actually. And the vast majority of U/W lists posted here rely on AEtherling or Elspeth, both of which are weak to Pithing Needle. Which is why I asked my question in the first place. I didn't see many win-cons in U/W that didn't become useless if a Pithing Needle resolved t1.
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EDH: URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.) BMaralen of the MornsongB UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB Standard: UMono U DevotionU Casual: GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
Divination, yes we no longer have think twice, you still need to gain card advantage or you will lose, key principle to most control decks. the deck is no longer "Flash" we were all spoiled, spells have to be played on our turn (LAME) but Divination is good at what you want it to be and thats netting advantage.
Heliod, This card is NUTS if you havent tried it you should. There is a lot less to do with our mana now with no think twice, no angel, no moorland haunt. Making a 2/1 is pretty good and over the long run will bury your opponent. He may never become a creature but that is perfectly fine he can win a game easy if unchecked. You draw lands, you have less to do with them why not make a token. Mobilization was played why cant this be.
Council of the Absolute has been very good in control mirrors, most removal is taken out and naming Revelation is huge.
Pithing Needle's are always good in a new format with cards like the ones given in Theros, but most of the mirror matches I name Aetherling and then kill them with Jace or Elspeth.
Some changes, -1 Celestial Flare for +1 Ratchet Bomb, still testing this though as I have been liking the Flare's.
if the format is super aggressive divination probably get cut for Omenspeaker as both help you find the cards you need faster, while one blocks. As of right now I haven't had a problem with faster decks like boros or mono red so im keeping the divination.
I like red in control decks, as they have decent draw for the cost of blue and red, other then Sphinx's Revelation they have the only draw that i feel is actually worth it, i really like Thoughtflare, i feel Steam Augury is decent but i was told it was a U/R Fact or Fiction, so it just feel like eh for that reason. Stormbreath Dragon is a great win con, burn is always good, and Chain to the Rock is my favorite removal in standard from what i have play tested. I am going to have to play test red more in my control deck to find out if it is as good as i feel it could be. This is just my feelings right now after the play testing i have done, which isnt a ridiculous amount, but it isnt a small amount.
In past seasons I've felt that red was good just not now also that was just my opinion
I've read most of these posts, actually. And the vast majority of U/W lists posted here rely on AEtherling or Elspeth, both of which are weak to Pithing Needle. Which is why I asked my question in the first place. I didn't see many win-cons in U/W that didn't become useless if a Pithing Needle resolved t1.
I've read most of these posts, actually. And the vast majority of U/W lists posted here rely on AEtherling or Elspeth, both of which are weak to Pithing Needle. Which is why I asked my question in the first place. I didn't see many win-cons in U/W that didn't become useless if a Pithing Needle resolved t1.
Up till now I've been running an azouras deck with just snapcasters (no good for you in the future), haunted platemail, jace a.o.t. (can cast a win con from your opponents deck), mutavault, and last but certainly not least....... blind obediance as my only win cons. It took a good deal of skill but as long as you can completly dominate the board, it worked great. And that's not a hard task with azouras, I promise.
Since the time Theros has been spoiled I've had my eyes set on playing UW come rotation. I worked on it for a few weeks, sure the mana base was consistent but it just felt a bit underwhelming.
A few weeks ago I tried adding red into the deck to give some better removal, as well as a larger selection of SB cards that I was lacking to find in the UW version.
Here's the list I'm working with currently, it's definitely not perfect but I think that it's an okay start coming into Theros.
The addition of spot removal gives this version of control the ability to deal with your opponents creatures easier instead of having to kill everything with Supreme Verdict.
Magma Jet gives us a bit of card selection if you will, to help us smooth out our draws with "Scry 2".
With further testing Steam Augury has been getting a lot worse than I said it was when I first started playing with it. At first the card seems great, it just screams pure card advantage. After you start playing with it for awhile you end up realizing that you hardly get the cards you need, and it often sends your win-cons to the GY. I think I'd rather have these been Jace #4+5.
Adding red also gives us a bunch of stong SB options that I've mentioned above.
Maybe the best Counterspell for the mirror, in the form of Counterflux was an auto-include in my SB. This card just wrecks against the control mirror when they're holding up a Counterspell to protect their threats.
Anger of the Gods acts as Supreme Verdicts 5+6 when facing smaller Aggro decks. The "exile" ability is relevant against cards like Voice of Resurgence, which I expect to be a problem without Pillar of Flame.
The list seems a bit top-heavy with its curve. It's most important spells don't start getting cast until turn 4. With either Jace or Supreme Verdict being the ideal 4-drop for this deck, I think having the added Warleader's Helix and Steam Augury is a bit too much for this deck. I've found myself only being able to cast 1 spell per turn most of the time. Control decks in other formats seems to shine when they're able to cast multiple spells per turn so they can deal with their opponents threats as quickly as possible. Only being able to cast one spell at a time gives your opponent the opportunity to fill the board with multiple threats that you can't handle with in time, and you just die.
But if we're considering cutting some of the strongest cards that red is offering us, then why play red at all?
I built up a U/W/R list that slightly resembled the lists prior to rotation and used Lightning Strike and some Magma Jets. However, after reading through this thread, I have to agree that red just isn't as good as black. Sure, you can burn the opponent out to close the game, but it seems better to strip their hand clean.
I do like the idea of a straight U/B control list as it does much of the same things as Esper, just with less life gain. On a tangent, I used to play U/B for the last month of Innistrad standard, and a card I LOVED to have because of all the removal in my deck was Crypt Incursion. Keep that in mind if anyone wants to build U/B. It's a great card. Also, Thassa is pretty good for just the scry alone. Especially in a two color deck.
I have too agree, black removal just scales so much better than burn. Some may argue it can go to the dome late game but, ive actually yet too see a list with enough burn in it too do 20. It was possible because of Snapcaster before rotation but, well, you know. Which makes Magma Jet a discard a card Scry 2 spell and Warleaders helix a life gain spell.
Sorry thats a bit flippant, they are great cards, but you get my point?
I too saw Cypt Incursion see SB play, its a poor mans T1 Deathrite but, its a pretty sweet post-wrath play.
If your forgoing black completely tho you are quite limited when it comes too 'foolproof' winn cons. I kind of like the idea of winning with extort from blind obedience but, that seems slightly un-foolproof. Theres Heliod, but once again Pithing needle weak. Wow.
Right. And I'm totally agreeing with everything here. I built the U/W/R deck because I knew it had more life gain to it, but I think I'd rather have the black removal and a slightly better mana base.
And about Crypt Incursion, I actually played it as a one of main to help my mono red match up. It was so crazy, people were like: "You seriously play that main?" It held me in the game longer to either mill someone out with a Drownyard or swing in for lethal with Aetherling.
Deathrite is great if you have the green, but I'm vouching for an Esper control or U/B control list. I'll probably build up a U/B list once I get some Thoughtseize. I'll probably test with two Thassa and maybe Prognostic Sphinx. I kinda like the card.
One thing is for sure though. If anyone plays white in their control lists, they should be playing Heliod. In my testing, he's been a game winner every time.
Honestly, until you get your thoughtseize, run duress. In testing B's removal suite is good enough where you should still be alright missing creatures, and that 2 life could very well make a difference G1 against aggro. The biggest issue I'm seeing with UB is it lacks any kind of sweeper, and you miss out on things like Sphinx's Rev, Azorius Charm, and/or Steam Augury (assuming Grixis Control). By splashing either W or R you get access to more draw and sweepers.
my $.02
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“There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.”
― Oscar Levant
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
I like red in control decks, as they have decent draw for the cost of blue and red, other then Sphinx's Revelation they have the only draw that i feel is actually worth it, i really like Thoughtflare, i feel Steam Augury is decent but i was told it was a U/R Fact or Fiction, so it just feel like eh for that reason. Stormbreath Dragon is a great win con, burn is always good, and Chain to the Rock is my favorite removal in standard from what i have play tested. I am going to have to play test red more in my control deck to find out if it is as good as i feel it could be. This is just my feelings right now after the play testing i have done, which isnt a ridiculous amount, but it isnt a small amount.
Man they would be handsome.
Naya Mid Rang
I've read most of these posts, actually. And the vast majority of U/W lists posted here rely on AEtherling or Elspeth, both of which are weak to Pithing Needle. Which is why I asked my question in the first place. I didn't see many win-cons in U/W that didn't become useless if a Pithing Needle resolved t1.
URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.)
BMaralen of the MornsongB
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
Standard:
UMono U DevotionU
Casual:
GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Azorius Guildgate
9 Islands
7 Plains
2 Mutavaults
Creatures
1 Aetherling
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
Spells
2 Syncopate
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Celestial Flare
4 Azorius Charm
2 Essence Scatter
3 Detention Sphere
2 Dissolve
3 Divination
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gainsay
3 Glare of Hersey
2 Negate
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Council of the Absolute
On some card choices
Divination, yes we no longer have think twice, you still need to gain card advantage or you will lose, key principle to most control decks. the deck is no longer "Flash" we were all spoiled, spells have to be played on our turn (LAME) but Divination is good at what you want it to be and thats netting advantage.
Heliod, This card is NUTS if you havent tried it you should. There is a lot less to do with our mana now with no think twice, no angel, no moorland haunt. Making a 2/1 is pretty good and over the long run will bury your opponent. He may never become a creature but that is perfectly fine he can win a game easy if unchecked. You draw lands, you have less to do with them why not make a token. Mobilization was played why cant this be.
Council of the Absolute has been very good in control mirrors, most removal is taken out and naming Revelation is huge.
Pithing Needle's are always good in a new format with cards like the ones given in Theros, but most of the mirror matches I name Aetherling and then kill them with Jace or Elspeth.
Some changes, -1 Celestial Flare for +1 Ratchet Bomb, still testing this though as I have been liking the Flare's.
if the format is super aggressive divination probably get cut for Omenspeaker as both help you find the cards you need faster, while one blocks. As of right now I haven't had a problem with faster decks like boros or mono red so im keeping the divination.
In past seasons I've felt that red was good just not now also that was just my opinion
Haunted Plate Mail , Aetherling the new Elspeth and Jace, Memory adept are all good win-cons that get turned off via Pithing Needle at which point you either counter it with Annul run a split of win-cons or Detention Sphere it.
3rd at Wisconsin States 2012
Standard:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next Lvl ZombiesB//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JUND Whedon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks to DNC @ Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Sig.
Up till now I've been running an azouras deck with just snapcasters (no good for you in the future), haunted platemail, jace a.o.t. (can cast a win con from your opponents deck), mutavault, and last but certainly not least....... blind obediance as my only win cons. It took a good deal of skill but as long as you can completly dominate the board, it worked great. And that's not a hard task with azouras, I promise.
A few weeks ago I tried adding red into the deck to give some better removal, as well as a larger selection of SB cards that I was lacking to find in the UW version.
Here's the list I'm working with currently, it's definitely not perfect but I think that it's an okay start coming into Theros.
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Azorius Charm
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Magma Jet
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Dissolve
2 Syncopate
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Steam Augury
2 Detention Sphere
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Turn // Burn
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Steam Vents
1 Izzet Guildgate
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple of Triumph
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Counterflux
2 Negate
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Pithing Needle
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Turn // Burn
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Detention Sphere
The addition of spot removal gives this version of control the ability to deal with your opponents creatures easier instead of having to kill everything with Supreme Verdict.
Magma Jet gives us a bit of card selection if you will, to help us smooth out our draws with "Scry 2".
With further testing Steam Augury has been getting a lot worse than I said it was when I first started playing with it. At first the card seems great, it just screams pure card advantage. After you start playing with it for awhile you end up realizing that you hardly get the cards you need, and it often sends your win-cons to the GY. I think I'd rather have these been Jace #4+5.
Adding red also gives us a bunch of stong SB options that I've mentioned above.
Maybe the best Counterspell for the mirror, in the form of Counterflux was an auto-include in my SB. This card just wrecks against the control mirror when they're holding up a Counterspell to protect their threats.
Anger of the Gods acts as Supreme Verdicts 5+6 when facing smaller Aggro decks. The "exile" ability is relevant against cards like Voice of Resurgence, which I expect to be a problem without Pillar of Flame.
The list seems a bit top-heavy with its curve. It's most important spells don't start getting cast until turn 4. With either Jace or Supreme Verdict being the ideal 4-drop for this deck, I think having the added Warleader's Helix and Steam Augury is a bit too much for this deck. I've found myself only being able to cast 1 spell per turn most of the time. Control decks in other formats seems to shine when they're able to cast multiple spells per turn so they can deal with their opponents threats as quickly as possible. Only being able to cast one spell at a time gives your opponent the opportunity to fill the board with multiple threats that you can't handle with in time, and you just die.
But if we're considering cutting some of the strongest cards that red is offering us, then why play red at all?
I do like the idea of a straight U/B control list as it does much of the same things as Esper, just with less life gain. On a tangent, I used to play U/B for the last month of Innistrad standard, and a card I LOVED to have because of all the removal in my deck was Crypt Incursion. Keep that in mind if anyone wants to build U/B. It's a great card. Also, Thassa is pretty good for just the scry alone. Especially in a two color deck.
that said, I've been toying with a draw-go UBr deck and the Black Removal suite is nice...
Still undecided on which route I want to go...not used to having so many options tbh...=/
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
Right. And I'm totally agreeing with everything here. I built the U/W/R deck because I knew it had more life gain to it, but I think I'd rather have the black removal and a slightly better mana base.
And about Crypt Incursion, I actually played it as a one of main to help my mono red match up. It was so crazy, people were like: "You seriously play that main?" It held me in the game longer to either mill someone out with a Drownyard or swing in for lethal with Aetherling.
Deathrite is great if you have the green, but I'm vouching for an Esper control or U/B control list. I'll probably build up a U/B list once I get some Thoughtseize. I'll probably test with two Thassa and maybe Prognostic Sphinx. I kinda like the card.
One thing is for sure though. If anyone plays white in their control lists, they should be playing Heliod. In my testing, he's been a game winner every time.
my $.02
― Oscar Levant
-Decks Testing-
RockstarsBG
Deck | Thread
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic