This would have been a much more interesting thread if the caveat was "top 5 worst cards BEING PLAYED in standard right now"
I figured that this is where the thread would eventually go in a page or two, so that's why I just picked the #1 card: Azorius Charm. It's so easy to play around...and if your removal spell needs to be have cycling in order to be playable, it probably sucks.
I figured that this is where the thread would eventually go in a page or two, so that's why I just picked the #1 card: Azorius Charm. It's so easy to play around...and if your removal spell needs to be have cycling in order to be playable, it probably sucks.
Thank you. I thought I was living in my own world, as everyone I've told that the card is bad has gawked and claimed it was the best card in Esper.
Makes me wonder if they ever played games without it, as it's real nice to be able to outright kill stuff. Charm is a tempo card, it's not intended for a control deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Winner of the MTGSalvation Standard Championships III & IV.
2 pages in, and no one has mentioned Search the City?
I'd play a 0/2 flyer with no abilities for 3, or an aura that pumps a creature by 3 (and technically is semidecent with burning-tree emissary) long before i'd spend 5 mana on an enchantment that does absolutely nothing. Search is worse than trait doctoring (which repeatedly triggers heroic). Trait doctoring is probably #2, and search warrant definitely deserves a shout out.
hey search the city is 5/5 creature with opalescence and sorrow's path triggers landfall.
Thank you. I thought I was living in my own world, as everyone I've told that the card is bad has gawked and claimed it was the best card in Esper.
Makes me wonder if they ever played games without it, as it's real nice to be able to outright kill stuff. Charm is a tempo card, it's not intended for a control deck.
Charm can save a control deck control decks love to buy time when it doesn't cost them a card, yes control doesn't want to necessarily play tempo but when that tempo is not card disadvantage its fine.
Control doesn't enjoy playing tempo like Unsummon which can be good in a tempo deck but is straight up card disadvantage. Azorius Charm either digs you deeper or makes them redraw the creature and cast it again or outright kill it if its a token.
The lifelink ability can also be a lifesaver in rare circumstances like say in a Aetherling situation facing off against mono-black devotion.
hey search the city is 5/5 creature with opalescence and sorrow's path triggers landfall.
neither being in standard. it does provide 1 blue for devotion though (on a hard to destroy permanent type), and increases the power of a creature with ethreal armor on it...
Charm can save a control deck control decks love to buy time when it doesn't cost them a card, yes control doesn't want to necessarily play tempo but when that tempo is not card disadvantage its fine.
Control doesn't enjoy playing tempo like Unsummon which can be good in a tempo deck but is straight up card disadvantage. Azorius Charm either digs you deeper or makes them redraw the creature and cast it again or outright kill it if its a token.
The lifelink ability can also be a lifesaver in rare circumstances like say in a Aetherling situation facing off against mono-black devotion.
The problem with Azorius Charm is not where it puts the creature, but that you have to cast it in combat. That means when you commit 2 mana in your opponent's combat phase, you don't have that 2 mana for his next main phase--which is crucial. The difference between this and something like Doom Blade or Far/Away is that you have the option to cast Azorius Charm at your opponent's end step. Even if you are taking an amount of damage in combat, it is often better to "play around everything" by waiting until both main phases have cleared to make moves with removal.
People say "Oh, you can cycle it" or "It has three options," but the problem isn't card parity; it's deck space. I have been a giant fan of Memory Lapse for years and years, but there's a giant world of difference between something that reacts to your opponent's spells and something that gives your opponent more options by tapping you out before one of his main phases. If a spell is going to do that, why should it cost 2 different colors of mana and cost 2 mana, in total? We're not exactly starved for options, in that department--there are a plethora of black removal spells that operate fully at instant-speed, not like Azorius Charm. Or why can't it cost just one white mana, like Condemn or Oust? If it's going to be a tempo spell, make it a tempo spell--make the mana cost good, and don't give it cycling. If I want to play a tempo removal spell in my deck, I'll be happy with it just doing its job--it doesn't need to be cycled. Either it belongs in the sideboard or the metagame is aggressive enough that you want it in your maindeck; that's how tempo removal works.
But people still assume they need 4 Azorius Charms, when they're playing UWx control decks. It's not even a matter of whether you're playing tap-out or draw-go or any other style of play; if you're in Draw-Go then you don't want to tap out in your opponent's combat, and if you're playing tap-out then you probably can just find something better within that spot on the mana curve. Not like it's a big secret you've got UW open in their combat, when the rest of your deck is sorcery-speed....
Thank you. I thought I was living in my own world, as everyone I've told that the card is bad has gawked and claimed it was the best card in Esper.
Makes me wonder if they ever played games without it, as it's real nice to be able to outright kill stuff. Charm is a tempo card, it's not intended for a control deck.
No, it's a control card, just not for esper. It's fantastic in U/W control, and besides, it can grab you a card, or some much needed life.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
No, it's a control card, just not for esper. It's fantastic in U/W control, and besides, it can grab you a card, or some much needed life.
It's very much a tempo card that has only ever been good against Blitz style aggro and midrange lists as a means to time walk them. Fact is the card is mostly used to cycle and if that is all you wanted it to do then Quicken is just better, and Quicken isn't even a good card. The life gain is an argument I get allot but really, how many times have players actually cast charm with an attacking Aetherling and attributed that play to them eventually winning?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Brilliant ideas are stupid ideas that worked - Patrick Chapin
I thought thiswas about the worst cards in standard... i think that means you start by eliminating every card youve seen in a top 16. In fact, you can probably eliminate every card you see played at a major event (even from the guy who went 0-8's deck) and still have enough cards to pick 5 with room to spare. So, eliminate what's playable in limited from what's left and you now have the true worst of the worst... and theres still more than 5 I bet. If youre naming cards that have seen play or could in any circumstances... you're missing the point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:UWBRG MAGIC: The Gathering UWBRG
It's very much a tempo card that has only ever been good against Blitz style aggro and midrange lists as a means to time walk them. Fact is the card is mostly used to cycle and if that is all you wanted it to do then Quicken is just better, and Quicken isn't even a good card. The life gain is an argument I get allot but really, how many times have players actually cast charm with an attacking Aetherling and attributed that play to them eventually winning?
Two Drops are a thing, that means that on the draw, control needs answers T2, and celestial flare is not always possible, due to its double cost. Azorius charm forces them not only to lose their creature, but be forced to draw it again, effectively buying you two turns before having to deal with it again really. This may sound like tempo, but in reality, control has to slow the game.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
These top 5 lists can never be cards that actually do something to impact the other player (like a creature that can attack them) because there are always, always worse cards that just do nothing at all like trait doctoring
Two Drops are a thing, that means that on the draw, control needs answers T2, and celestial flare is not always possible, due to its double cost. Azorius charm forces them not only to lose their creature, but be forced to draw it again, effectively buying you two turns before having to deal with it again really. This may sound like tempo, but in reality, control has to slow the game.
Well RDW plays 8 haste creatures and that is not taking into account Hammer of Purphoros and Burning-Tree Emissary they have access to. I think they couldnt care less about drawing that Cackler again since they know that you will wrath anyway so they wont play their entire hand.
People really calling Azorius Charm bad? Even if the creature has haste you denied them their card draw. This could mean that they were hoping to draw land to play their 4 mana drop [this is you on the draw] but you denied them that which IS HUGE. Then you have a better situation on what you would want to do, kill a creature flat out or counter something.
I don't see having Charm as a 4 of. I usually just have it as a 3 of and sometimes cut 1 out for a sideboard card depending on what I am facing. It is a useful card and I'm not too disappointed in drawing it in the early game and sometimes late game when I burned out through my other card drawing. Also it is nice to smack someone with Elspeth army, Obezdat or Aetherling in lifelink mode.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
Emmara Tandris
An elf healer who can fight Colossal Whales or Polukranos, World Eater and emerge victorious.
Aside from the huge flavor fail the ability of her is also ridiculously weak. Preventing damage to tokens on a seven mana rare. Really?
Well RDW plays 8 haste creatures and that is not taking into account Hammer of Purphoros and Burning-Tree Emissary they have access to. I think they couldnt care less about drawing that Cackler again since they know that you will wrath anyway so they wont play their entire hand.
So, if they attack with a single haste creature, meaning an early game without BTE, charm buys you a turn, or it lessens the damage you take, while hurting their plans? Sounds like a decent control card.
You're trying to make the argument that "A card that lessens the damage you take, and screws up the draw of your opponent next turn, or gains you life, or draws you a card, is bad for control to have" that's silly. Sure, it's not an instant speed verdict,but it's good.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
I was about to say how many cards on here are playable, but this IS MTGS, where a card is either Geist of Saint Traft or Emmara Tandris with no room in between.
OT: Artificer's Hex is pretty bad...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Bellows lizard - no deck that he would be useful in wouldn't be better off with firedrinker satyr.
purphoros, god of the forge - there is no deck for him. He costs 4 mana and does nothing when he hits play, and is pointless on an empty board. This guy looks great, but he's not a card monored decks want, and devotion ensures that multicolor decks won't want him either. At best he's a bad pandemonium. I like him, but chandra pyromaster, ember swallower, and fanatic of mogis all make him look silly. Even ogre battledriver is arguably more useful. If only he was as good as his hammer.
Not completely aweful cards
Trait doctoring has one decent use; nivmagus elemental. You only let the actual casting resolve, and then milk the copies for the sweet +1/+1 counters (which unfortunately come after damage, but reliable source is reliable.
Purphorous bad? either you're terrible at trolling, or terrible at magic.
It depends on what we're referring to bad, objectively bad, bad in the format, or just inferior to existing cards. I think it'd be hard to argue a worse card than Artificers hex, which has no real application whatsoever in standard. Prettymuch every card could be used in a deck, or has an application, but this one stands out some way. In standard the only vaguely usable artifact is Haunted Plate Mail, and it doesn't do much there..
Bellows Lizard fine. The existence of a mostly better card doesn't make it one of the top 5 worst cards in standard. R, 1/1, boosts, it's a generally poor thing to cast, but there are loads of worse things you could be frittering your mana away on.
I guess I'm not saying worst so much as most disappointing.
Bellows lizard initially caught my eye as a one mana mana sink, but even before his satyr replacement he just didn't deliver.
And I'm neither terrible at magic nor am I trolling. Purphoros has no place in standard, there are a menagerie of half decent mono-red decks, and not a one of them is running him. He was way overvalued when he premiered, and his value has yet to settle into a more realistic appraisal. Value is use, and purph has none at the moment. If someone gets the magical christmas land assemble the legion deck into a real deck we might see his value improve, but that day is not today.
Haunted plate mail falls behind the god's weapons in terms of playability.
So, if they attack with a single haste creature, meaning an early game without BTE, charm buys you a turn, or it lessens the damage you take, while hurting their plans? Sounds like a decent control card.
You're trying to make the argument that "A card that lessens the damage you take, and screws up the draw of your opponent next turn, or gains you life, or draws you a card, is bad for control to have" that's silly. Sure, it's not an instant speed verdict,but it's good.
Putting a creature on top of your opponents deck isn't as good as people seem to believe. It's good, but not as good as being able to remove the threat entirely in a lot of situations, especially while playing control.
The whole point of "screwing up" their draw step, is a way to win the race, or establish better board position while making the opponent choke on the same spell in tempo decks for tempo decks is (As in, Faeries, Delver, UWR Flash, Merfolk)
Control decks however, have neither board position or want to, "win a race". So when you charm a creature, you essentially fog for the damage it'd have done, and guarantee your opponent a live draw the next turn. This becomes especially worse in the later stages of the game when mana is no longer an issue, and simply surviving is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Winner of the MTGSalvation Standard Championships III & IV.
Putting a creature on top of your opponents deck isn't as good as people seem to believe. It's good, but not as good as being able to remove the threat entirely in a lot of situations, especially while playing control.
The whole point of "screwing up" their draw step, is a way to win the race, or establish better board position while making the opponent choke on the same spell in tempo decks for tempo decks is (As in, Faeries, Delver, UWR Flash, Merfolk)
Control decks however, have neither board position or want to, "win a race". So when you charm a creature, you essentially fog for the damage it'd have done, and guarantee your opponent a live draw the next turn. This becomes especially worse in the later stages of the game when mana is no longer an issue, and simply surviving is.
Azorius Charm actually fogs for 2 turns in a lot of situations, without haste in the picture. Ensuring that they draw the same creature again is still denying them a card. In some cases, it is very nearly a timewalk. It is horrendous against haste, however.
Again, anything that can actually damage or attack the opponent is not going to be one of the 5 worst cards as they can in theory eventually win you the game. The worst cards are the ones that straight up do nothing.
This would be my list of more than 5 cards that are worse than any creature.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I figured that this is where the thread would eventually go in a page or two, so that's why I just picked the #1 card: Azorius Charm. It's so easy to play around...and if your removal spell needs to be have cycling in order to be playable, it probably sucks.
Thank you. I thought I was living in my own world, as everyone I've told that the card is bad has gawked and claimed it was the best card in Esper.
Makes me wonder if they ever played games without it, as it's real nice to be able to outright kill stuff. Charm is a tempo card, it's not intended for a control deck.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
hey search the city is 5/5 creature with opalescence and sorrow's path triggers landfall.
........................
Charm can save a control deck control decks love to buy time when it doesn't cost them a card, yes control doesn't want to necessarily play tempo but when that tempo is not card disadvantage its fine.
Control doesn't enjoy playing tempo like Unsummon which can be good in a tempo deck but is straight up card disadvantage. Azorius Charm either digs you deeper or makes them redraw the creature and cast it again or outright kill it if its a token.
The lifelink ability can also be a lifesaver in rare circumstances like say in a Aetherling situation facing off against mono-black devotion.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
neither being in standard. it does provide 1 blue for devotion though (on a hard to destroy permanent type), and increases the power of a creature with ethreal armor on it...
The problem with Azorius Charm is not where it puts the creature, but that you have to cast it in combat. That means when you commit 2 mana in your opponent's combat phase, you don't have that 2 mana for his next main phase--which is crucial. The difference between this and something like Doom Blade or Far/Away is that you have the option to cast Azorius Charm at your opponent's end step. Even if you are taking an amount of damage in combat, it is often better to "play around everything" by waiting until both main phases have cleared to make moves with removal.
People say "Oh, you can cycle it" or "It has three options," but the problem isn't card parity; it's deck space. I have been a giant fan of Memory Lapse for years and years, but there's a giant world of difference between something that reacts to your opponent's spells and something that gives your opponent more options by tapping you out before one of his main phases. If a spell is going to do that, why should it cost 2 different colors of mana and cost 2 mana, in total? We're not exactly starved for options, in that department--there are a plethora of black removal spells that operate fully at instant-speed, not like Azorius Charm. Or why can't it cost just one white mana, like Condemn or Oust? If it's going to be a tempo spell, make it a tempo spell--make the mana cost good, and don't give it cycling. If I want to play a tempo removal spell in my deck, I'll be happy with it just doing its job--it doesn't need to be cycled. Either it belongs in the sideboard or the metagame is aggressive enough that you want it in your maindeck; that's how tempo removal works.
But people still assume they need 4 Azorius Charms, when they're playing UWx control decks. It's not even a matter of whether you're playing tap-out or draw-go or any other style of play; if you're in Draw-Go then you don't want to tap out in your opponent's combat, and if you're playing tap-out then you probably can just find something better within that spot on the mana curve. Not like it's a big secret you've got UW open in their combat, when the rest of your deck is sorcery-speed....
No, it's a control card, just not for esper. It's fantastic in U/W control, and besides, it can grab you a card, or some much needed life.
It's very much a tempo card that has only ever been good against Blitz style aggro and midrange lists as a means to time walk them. Fact is the card is mostly used to cycle and if that is all you wanted it to do then Quicken is just better, and Quicken isn't even a good card. The life gain is an argument I get allot but really, how many times have players actually cast charm with an attacking Aetherling and attributed that play to them eventually winning?
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
The current answers something like U/W control has to creatures are Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, Celestial Flare and azorius charm.
Two Drops are a thing, that means that on the draw, control needs answers T2, and celestial flare is not always possible, due to its double cost. Azorius charm forces them not only to lose their creature, but be forced to draw it again, effectively buying you two turns before having to deal with it again really. This may sound like tempo, but in reality, control has to slow the game.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Well RDW plays 8 haste creatures and that is not taking into account Hammer of Purphoros and Burning-Tree Emissary they have access to. I think they couldnt care less about drawing that Cackler again since they know that you will wrath anyway so they wont play their entire hand.
I don't see having Charm as a 4 of. I usually just have it as a 3 of and sometimes cut 1 out for a sideboard card depending on what I am facing. It is a useful card and I'm not too disappointed in drawing it in the early game and sometimes late game when I burned out through my other card drawing. Also it is nice to smack someone with Elspeth army, Obezdat or Aetherling in lifelink mode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
An elf healer who can fight Colossal Whales or Polukranos, World Eater and emerge victorious.
Aside from the huge flavor fail the ability of her is also ridiculously weak. Preventing damage to tokens on a seven mana rare. Really?
So, if they attack with a single haste creature, meaning an early game without BTE, charm buys you a turn, or it lessens the damage you take, while hurting their plans? Sounds like a decent control card.
You're trying to make the argument that "A card that lessens the damage you take, and screws up the draw of your opponent next turn, or gains you life, or draws you a card, is bad for control to have" that's silly. Sure, it's not an instant speed verdict,but it's good.
OT: Artificer's Hex is pretty bad...
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
purphoros, god of the forge - there is no deck for him. He costs 4 mana and does nothing when he hits play, and is pointless on an empty board. This guy looks great, but he's not a card monored decks want, and devotion ensures that multicolor decks won't want him either. At best he's a bad pandemonium. I like him, but chandra pyromaster, ember swallower, and fanatic of mogis all make him look silly. Even ogre battledriver is arguably more useful. If only he was as good as his hammer.
Not completely aweful cards
Trait doctoring has one decent use; nivmagus elemental. You only let the actual casting resolve, and then milk the copies for the sweet +1/+1 counters (which unfortunately come after damage, but reliable source is reliable.
crackling perimeter is a fun alternate wincon for maze's end.
He's like Prophetic Prism, except instead of cantriping, he dies.
I guess I'm not saying worst so much as most disappointing.
Bellows lizard initially caught my eye as a one mana mana sink, but even before his satyr replacement he just didn't deliver.
And I'm neither terrible at magic nor am I trolling. Purphoros has no place in standard, there are a menagerie of half decent mono-red decks, and not a one of them is running him. He was way overvalued when he premiered, and his value has yet to settle into a more realistic appraisal. Value is use, and purph has none at the moment. If someone gets the magical christmas land assemble the legion deck into a real deck we might see his value improve, but that day is not today.
Haunted plate mail falls behind the god's weapons in terms of playability.
Putting a creature on top of your opponents deck isn't as good as people seem to believe. It's good, but not as good as being able to remove the threat entirely in a lot of situations, especially while playing control.
The whole point of "screwing up" their draw step, is a way to win the race, or establish better board position while making the opponent choke on the same spell in tempo decks for tempo decks is (As in, Faeries, Delver, UWR Flash, Merfolk)
Control decks however, have neither board position or want to, "win a race". So when you charm a creature, you essentially fog for the damage it'd have done, and guarantee your opponent a live draw the next turn. This becomes especially worse in the later stages of the game when mana is no longer an issue, and simply surviving is.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
Azorius Charm actually fogs for 2 turns in a lot of situations, without haste in the picture. Ensuring that they draw the same creature again is still denying them a card. In some cases, it is very nearly a timewalk. It is horrendous against haste, however.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
This would be my list of more than 5 cards that are worse than any creature.
trait doctoring
awe for the guilds
bioshift
clear a path
darksteel forge
heroes reuinion (this one is admittedly iffy for the list)
predator's rapport
Pyxis of Pandemonium
search warrant
spell blast (pretty much the worst counterspell ever)
The whole staff cycle
tablet of the guilds
goblin test pilot
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588