Has anyone tried to simply make a Pack Rat deck? It could use almost the same black shell. I feel as if whenever i play my black deck, get it out, and it survives the one crucial turn that it simply takes over the game. Everytime. A resolved PR just wins, usually by turn 5 or 6.
Or, maybe just main deck 4 of them and drop the DD to 3 and Nightveil to 3. Its seriously one of more powerful cards in any matchup. Once it starts multiplying and you jave some mutavaults out, it gets out of control easy to put someone away. A turn 2 PR needs a response.
And i guess weak to Anger of the Gods, which is what any aggro deck has to go through. I suppose thats why its simply an alternate win con unless you were able to build protection around it. A dega deck with Boros Charms to save the day?...
It is weak to those, but Golgari charm can handle both(regenerate and enchantment destruction).Which could be pretty useful,not to mention the -1/-1 option to save rats when chumping or attacking.Mayhaps a Junk shell?with selesnya populate and Rootbound defenses?
While I don't disagree with maindecking 4 pack rats, I don't think you need to make a 'pack rat' deck. Pack rat has the fun property that, if you have one, your deck is a 'pack rat' deck, seeing as all your cards are suddenly pack rats. Trying to make your deck rely on pack rat more seems unnecessary. afterall, what if you don't draw one
if you do want to be the 'best' pack rat deck, then you want to be running:
4+ 1 mana discard spells. Thoughtseize and duress are the best cards to play
before pack rat.
Underworld connections, Nyk, and/or Nightveil spectre: underworld connections and nightveil spectre both let you play cards in addition to your rats, or, more rats. nyk lets rat 4+ count as swamps, which is nice. of course, at that point you're either winning, or you'll get your rats answered
3-4 mutavaults: for obvious reasons
also, any graveyard synergy wouldn't hurt. whip of erebos and pack rat are pretty close friends, as you well know.
All these options were available pre-rotation. No one play it because it was terrible. Pack Rat.dec does not even remotely work
While you might be right, your reasoning is terrible and way off base. The last standard had 3x the amount of card pool to choose from, which makes things vastly different. PR wasnt used at all last standard, but lo and behold, its wrecking house in mono B decks now.
I admit to not having tried Pack Rat in constructed, but, I'd imagine in an environment with a lot of graveyard recursion (Flashback) intentionally putting your cards in a graveyard would have been a nice synergy. With those gone, it might not be as strong.
At the very least, once we have a couple more sets to choose from, the relative power of them should plummet.
i played a budget monoblack deck before rotation. it was rat discard. pack rat, ravenous rats, drainpipe vermin, shrieking affliction. Pack rat that isnt immediately answered wins games. but too often you had to choose between removing a threat and making a rat. it was a lot better than people expected but still weak to a lot of stuff.
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Quote from DEADMANSEVEN »
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it put an evasive creature in its deck over a narrow hate card.
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If a card isn't worth your opponent removing, it's not worth putting in your deck.
A "Pack rat" deck, one that builds around pack rat may be suboptimal, but lets not deny the power of pack rat from that observation. Any of you who have lost to mono black that changes gears into packrat mode can attest to this.
As previously stated, golgari charm would help protect this approach from it's biggest weakness - sweepers. And because of golgari charm's many relevant functions, you could run it maindeck and in higher numbers. In this meta, I would go as far to say that you'll be stuck with doomblade as a dead card in hand more often than golgari charm.
That said, I've seen a few interesting golgari decks that walk the line of aggro/midrange. AJ Kerrigan wrote about one recently. I wouldn't be surprised if some variations of it became more popular, even if only for a little bit.
I don't see the harm in trying. Maybe go with a B/G/R type shell to run stuff like Golgari Charm and Purphorous. I'd imagine that PR and Purphorous would be quite a bit of damage in the long run.
I away saw PR as a filler card in Mono B because it didn't have any better 2 drops.
It's not. Pack rat single handily defeats several decks, and is the strongest card in the monoblack mirror (underworld connections and nightveil spectre being second and 3rd). Honestly, last standard and this standard have nothing in common. In last standard, half the creatures played had 'enters the battlefield' abilities, making single target removal suboptimal. black removal cost 3 mana, and was useless against thragtusk, resto angel, and tiago chan. suddenly, we're back to magic, where you no longer get free 2 for 1s, and 3 for 1s, tacked onto permanents. if you want card advantage, you have to tap out for the turn, and spend mana on something that only nets you cards (underworld connections, divination, read the bones). there are also almost no cards that generate multiple permanents in one card.
desecration demon, for instance, was completely useless in last standard because all that he was was a big creature. he didn't give you life, draw you cards, flash, create werewolves, or boost the power of your humans. there's no longer lingering souls to keep him tapped down for 40 years, or thragtusk to race and obsolete him.
in this environment, rats are great. you can't beat rats with 1for1 removal because you probably only have 10 or so removal spells in your deck, where as your opponent has 50+ pack rats. eventually, you'll run out, and you'll get eaten by rats. that's what they do. if your opponent can't race you, wrath you, or d-sphere you, rats are good. honestly, monoblack functions perfectly well without 2 drops. it runs, typically, 6 2 mana removal spells and it has mutavaults. it doesn't need a clock at all. it runs the rats because they are great top decks, virtually never bad, and just give you a lot of free wins.
try not to be so defamatory toward the OP, especially when you, yourself, seem not understand the context of the current format.
It's not. Pack rat single handily defeats several decks, and is the strongest card in the monoblack mirror (underworld connections and nightveil spectre being second and 3rd). Honestly, last standard and this standard have nothing in common. In last standard, half the creatures played had 'enters the battlefield' abilities, making single target removal suboptimal. black removal cost 3 mana, and was useless against thragtusk, resto angel, and tiago chan. suddenly, we're back to magic, where you no longer get free 2 for 1s, and 3 for 1s, tacked onto permanents. if you want card advantage, you have to tap out for the turn, and spend mana on something that only nets you cards (underworld connections, divination, read the bones). there are also almost no cards that generate multiple permanents in one card.
desecration demon, for instance, was completely useless in last standard because all that he was was a big creature. he didn't give you life, draw you cards, flash, create werewolves, or boost the power of your humans. there's no longer lingering souls to keep him tapped down for 40 years, or thragtusk to race and obsolete him.
in this environment, rats are great. you can't beat rats with 1for1 removal because you probably only have 10 or so removal spells in your deck, where as your opponent has 50+ pack rats. eventually, you'll run out, and you'll get eaten by rats. that's what they do. if your opponent can't race you, wrath you, or d-sphere you, rats are good. honestly, monoblack functions perfectly well without 2 drops. it runs, typically, 6 2 mana removal spells and it has mutavaults. it doesn't need a clock at all. it runs the rats because they are great top decks, virtually never bad, and just give you a lot of free wins.
try not to be so defamatory toward the OP, especially when you, yourself, seem not understand the context of the current format.
Please, you understand the format even less if you think a pack rat deck running golgari deck and rootborn defences can even remotely work. The same removal argument was in the previous standard, yet I don't see pack rat.dec wrecking the format.
The one use of pack rat imo is that it can eventually break through a stalled board against other midrange decks.
A Pack Rat, left unchecked can ,singlehandedly, take over games. Easily. It's great in the Mono Black mirror, but it's also fantastic against most other decks around as well. I'd say it's black's most important 2-drop creature atm. It can break a board stall. It can enable devotion at an alarming rate. It can create an seemingly never ending army to wall for days until it draws a Gray Merchant. It can tap down a DD for an entire game. It can bring Erebos online in short order. It's a highly resilient, under-costed threat that is probably one of the more important cards in Mono Black atm.
As for a pack rat deck, there's no real way to know if it's possible without trying now is there? If you don't think it's possible that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. The same goes for those that think it's possible.
Onto the deck itself, I'd stick with either B/G or try B/G/r for Purphorous. Makes any rat you make into a shock. Perhaps post a list in either the Budget section or Standard Deck building section?
It's not. Pack rat single handily defeats several decks, and is the strongest card in the monoblack mirror (underworld connections and nightveil spectre being second and 3rd). Honestly, last standard and this standard have nothing in common. In last standard, half the creatures played had 'enters the battlefield' abilities, making single target removal suboptimal. black removal cost 3 mana, and was useless against thragtusk, resto angel, and tiago chan. suddenly, we're back to magic, where you no longer get free 2 for 1s, and 3 for 1s, tacked onto permanents. if you want card advantage, you have to tap out for the turn, and spend mana on something that only nets you cards (underworld connections, divination, read the bones). there are also almost no cards that generate multiple permanents in one card.
desecration demon, for instance, was completely useless in last standard because all that he was was a big creature. he didn't give you life, draw you cards, flash, create werewolves, or boost the power of your humans. there's no longer lingering souls to keep him tapped down for 40 years, or thragtusk to race and obsolete him.
in this environment, rats are great. you can't beat rats with 1for1 removal because you probably only have 10 or so removal spells in your deck, where as your opponent has 50+ pack rats. eventually, you'll run out, and you'll get eaten by rats. that's what they do. if your opponent can't race you, wrath you, or d-sphere you, rats are good. honestly, monoblack functions perfectly well without 2 drops. it runs, typically, 6 2 mana removal spells and it has mutavaults. it doesn't need a clock at all. it runs the rats because they are great top decks, virtually never bad, and just give you a lot of free wins.
try not to be so defamatory toward the OP, especially when you, yourself, seem not understand the context of the current format.
Pretty much this.
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Hyperbole aside, the reason PR does so well in the mono-black shell is a couple of reasons.
1. The high amount of removal gives the mono-black player quite a bit of time to reach 5-9 mana, at which point pack rat can quickly overcome most removal options.
2. Underground Connections gives the mono-black player a "pack rat" engine" as a way to turn dead or sub-standard cards into increasingly efficient threats.
3. Even in the matchup where PR is at it's worst (esper control), it forces A) Esper to keep supreme verdict in, and B)forces esper to use their precious D Spheres instead of saving them for whip, underground connections, or erebos.
PR is simply at a point in standard where he's able to shine. Calling him mediocre or overrated because he wasn't viable in the previous standard meta is a bit silly - even Jace the Mind Sculptor was unplayable for 3 months when he was first released.
Pack Rat is fine. It has a good synergy with a bunch of cards in the Black Devotion deck - Gary, Underworld Connections, Mutavault, Nykthos. Once it get's going, it can run away with the game, so it demands an answer relatively quickly.
On the other hand, every new rat you make costs three mana and a card, so unless you are in position to attack or force unfavorable trades, your mana and cards are usually better spent elsewhere.
It is definitely NOT a card you ever want four of in a deck, so I already see some people in this thread overrating it. In most games you don't have the luxury to just keep pumping mana and cards into it with an idle opponent.
The power in Pack Rat is that it provides an extra path to victory independent of whatever else the deck is doing. And it's something your opponent must consider while he's also trying to figure out what to do against Desecration Demons and Whips. It's a solid plan B that you want to have as an option if you draw it, but it's not something that you build a deck around.
Or, maybe just main deck 4 of them and drop the DD to 3 and Nightveil to 3. Its seriously one of more powerful cards in any matchup. Once it starts multiplying and you jave some mutavaults out, it gets out of control easy to put someone away. A turn 2 PR needs a response.
Username: Cabz
It is weak to those, but Golgari charm can handle both(regenerate and enchantment destruction).Which could be pretty useful,not to mention the -1/-1 option to save rats when chumping or attacking.Mayhaps a Junk shell?with selesnya populate and Rootbound defenses?
Modern:
UU TronU
URUR StormUR
RBWBurnRBW
EDH:
RBGProssh,skyraider of kherGBR
RKrenko,Mob BossR
URMelek,Izzet ParagonRU
RDaretti, Scrap savantR
WBTriad of fatesBW
if you do want to be the 'best' pack rat deck, then you want to be running:
4+ 1 mana discard spells. Thoughtseize and duress are the best cards to play
before pack rat.
Underworld connections, Nyk, and/or Nightveil spectre: underworld connections and nightveil spectre both let you play cards in addition to your rats, or, more rats. nyk lets rat 4+ count as swamps, which is nice. of course, at that point you're either winning, or you'll get your rats answered
3-4 mutavaults: for obvious reasons
also, any graveyard synergy wouldn't hurt. whip of erebos and pack rat are pretty close friends, as you well know.
While you might be right, your reasoning is terrible and way off base. The last standard had 3x the amount of card pool to choose from, which makes things vastly different. PR wasnt used at all last standard, but lo and behold, its wrecking house in mono B decks now.
At the very least, once we have a couple more sets to choose from, the relative power of them should plummet.
This.
I away saw PR as a filler card in Mono B because it didn't have any better 2 drops.
As previously stated, golgari charm would help protect this approach from it's biggest weakness - sweepers. And because of golgari charm's many relevant functions, you could run it maindeck and in higher numbers. In this meta, I would go as far to say that you'll be stuck with doomblade as a dead card in hand more often than golgari charm.
That said, I've seen a few interesting golgari decks that walk the line of aggro/midrange. AJ Kerrigan wrote about one recently. I wouldn't be surprised if some variations of it became more popular, even if only for a little bit.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
It's not. Pack rat single handily defeats several decks, and is the strongest card in the monoblack mirror (underworld connections and nightveil spectre being second and 3rd). Honestly, last standard and this standard have nothing in common. In last standard, half the creatures played had 'enters the battlefield' abilities, making single target removal suboptimal. black removal cost 3 mana, and was useless against thragtusk, resto angel, and tiago chan. suddenly, we're back to magic, where you no longer get free 2 for 1s, and 3 for 1s, tacked onto permanents. if you want card advantage, you have to tap out for the turn, and spend mana on something that only nets you cards (underworld connections, divination, read the bones). there are also almost no cards that generate multiple permanents in one card.
desecration demon, for instance, was completely useless in last standard because all that he was was a big creature. he didn't give you life, draw you cards, flash, create werewolves, or boost the power of your humans. there's no longer lingering souls to keep him tapped down for 40 years, or thragtusk to race and obsolete him.
in this environment, rats are great. you can't beat rats with 1for1 removal because you probably only have 10 or so removal spells in your deck, where as your opponent has 50+ pack rats. eventually, you'll run out, and you'll get eaten by rats. that's what they do. if your opponent can't race you, wrath you, or d-sphere you, rats are good. honestly, monoblack functions perfectly well without 2 drops. it runs, typically, 6 2 mana removal spells and it has mutavaults. it doesn't need a clock at all. it runs the rats because they are great top decks, virtually never bad, and just give you a lot of free wins.
try not to be so defamatory toward the OP, especially when you, yourself, seem not understand the context of the current format.
Please, you understand the format even less if you think a pack rat deck running golgari deck and rootborn defences can even remotely work. The same removal argument was in the previous standard, yet I don't see pack rat.dec wrecking the format.
The one use of pack rat imo is that it can eventually break through a stalled board against other midrange decks.
As for a pack rat deck, there's no real way to know if it's possible without trying now is there? If you don't think it's possible that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. The same goes for those that think it's possible.
Onto the deck itself, I'd stick with either B/G or try B/G/r for Purphorous. Makes any rat you make into a shock. Perhaps post a list in either the Budget section or Standard Deck building section?
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
Pretty much this.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Yeah, I'm doing it.
EDIT:
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Mutavault
7 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Pack Rat
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Underworld Connections
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Ultimate Price
2 Putrify
Probably missing something about needing a big flying dude of some kind and a big Corrupt type 5 mana creature... Yeah, but it's neat! AND ITS RATS!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7718699&postcount=248
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
1. The high amount of removal gives the mono-black player quite a bit of time to reach 5-9 mana, at which point pack rat can quickly overcome most removal options.
2. Underground Connections gives the mono-black player a "pack rat" engine" as a way to turn dead or sub-standard cards into increasingly efficient threats.
3. Even in the matchup where PR is at it's worst (esper control), it forces A) Esper to keep supreme verdict in, and B)forces esper to use their precious D Spheres instead of saving them for whip, underground connections, or erebos.
PR is simply at a point in standard where he's able to shine. Calling him mediocre or overrated because he wasn't viable in the previous standard meta is a bit silly - even Jace the Mind Sculptor was unplayable for 3 months when he was first released.
On the other hand, every new rat you make costs three mana and a card, so unless you are in position to attack or force unfavorable trades, your mana and cards are usually better spent elsewhere.
It is definitely NOT a card you ever want four of in a deck, so I already see some people in this thread overrating it. In most games you don't have the luxury to just keep pumping mana and cards into it with an idle opponent.
The power in Pack Rat is that it provides an extra path to victory independent of whatever else the deck is doing. And it's something your opponent must consider while he's also trying to figure out what to do against Desecration Demons and Whips. It's a solid plan B that you want to have as an option if you draw it, but it's not something that you build a deck around.