Honestly, if you are that comfortable with your selfishness and see no reason to consider the feelings of others, then there is nothing left to discuss.
You people have lost it. Seriously, almost everyone i know and see playing magic shuffles their hand. They aren't trying to get a leg up by distracting you(ok, maybe some are, but not most) Most do it to think, to calm nerves, and even just out of habit after playing magic for so long. I really can't understand how this bothers people so much?!
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
If you're doing something is annoying me, I will politely ask you to stop.
If you fail to make accommodation, a judge will be called and informed a specific behavior of yours is distracting and impeding my ability to play. I will also inform the judge that I politely asked you to stop, and that you haven't and then request the judge to watch for poor sportsmanship.
Proof is not required to establish if an action/behavior is annoying or not, only that you were informed of the behavior and its impact on myself as an opponent.
TLDR: If your Momma didn't raise you with enough sense to respect others, the Judge will substitute his own common sense for yours.
There is no judge that's going to do anything about a player shuffling their hand. They would have to be shuffling extremely obnoxiously for a judge to get involved.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
You people have lost it. Seriously, almost everyone i know and see playing magic shuffles their hand. They aren't trying to get a leg up by distracting you(ok, maybe some are, but not most) Most do it to think, to calm nerves, and even just out of habit after playing magic for so long. I really can't understand how this bothers people so much?!
Do you think we mean no one should shuffle their hands, if you look at what is said it is clear we don't mind you shuffling your hand until it gets to the point where the noise, very rapid motion become a distraction. even if they aren't trying to distract, it can still become a distraction if they do it in certain ways. All we ask is if they do find it a distraction is to try and curb the motion to mitigate it.
If you're doing something is annoying me, I will politely ask you to stop.
If you fail to make accommodation, a judge will be called and informed a specific behavior of yours is distracting and impeding my ability to play. I will also inform the judge that I politely asked you to stop, and that you haven't and then request the judge to watch for poor sportsmanship.
Proof is not required to establish if an action/behavior is annoying or not, only that you were informed of the behavior and its impact on myself as an opponent.
TLDR: If your Momma didn't raise you with enough sense to respect others, the Judge will substitute his own common sense for yours.
Judge my opponent has a spider on his shirt and I suffer from arachnophobia, I've asked him to remove his shirt or tape a piece of paper over the picture and he failed to comply. It is hindering my ability to play magic and you should watch for poor sportsmanship.
And you've still yet to address how the volume can possibly be relevant in a loud card shop when the sound is very faint to begin with.
This is exactly the point. There are a few different places i go to throughout the month to play Legacy, and each one is always packed with people. The one shop has a standard event, a legacy event, and a yugioh event all on the same day. Another shop has Warhammer 40k going on. Suffice to say, card shuffling is barely audible. And these are local events, at a bigger event its obviously even louder. I think you kids just have your panties in a bunch.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
If you're doing something is annoying me, I will politely ask you to stop.
If you fail to make accommodation, a judge will be called and informed a specific behavior of yours is distracting and impeding my ability to play. I will also inform the judge that I politely asked you to stop, and that you haven't and then request the judge to watch for poor sportsmanship.
Proof is not required to establish if an action/behavior is annoying or not, only that you were informed of the behavior and its impact on myself as an opponent.
TLDR: If your Momma didn't raise you with enough sense to respect others, the Judge will substitute his own common sense for yours.
I'd expect the judge to look at you awkwardly, and inform you that life isn't going to accommodate itself to you.
Lots of high level players flick their cards, if you plan to play at that level you should learn to deal with it.
I think you kids just have your panties in a bunch.
Kids? I am almost 40, married with two kids, and have learned how to consider the feelings of others and find middle ground in my 19 years of marriage.
I shuffle my hand all the time, it helps my analyze future moves. Unless its a rule (DCI) that I can't, I will. Being the person i am, if someone asked me to stop, I will, however that's just because i'm that way. I will not vindicate anyone who does otherwise under any circumstance. If someone asked you to stop, you can simply politely refuse.
Most hand shufflers I meet are nervous wrecks. Hand shuffling, shakey hands, occasional stuttering, frustrated easy and scoop 3 turns before I actually kill them
And you know, I quite like it.
So in the event I met a hand shuffler who did it "intentionally" to annoy their opponent, it would have no negative effect on me.
Like a rock imo
Nothing he can do will change what cards you both started with; if your FNM is draft your gonna lose anyway if he played 7 creatures in a row and you played 2.
I, as a general rule, do not give a crap how my opponent feels. I do not need to, I am not supposed to, and I don't want to.
If my opponent thinks he's the only special snowflake of unique specialness who needs to be adhered to and spoken to softly or else he'll cry, then he's probably going to cry when I don't speak softly, and if it takes too long I'm calling a judge.
That being said I'd never go out of my way to make someone cry, but clearly the people that get 'so offended by minor things like hand shuffling, to the point where they will multiple times call a judge on me, I will assume that I am not dealing with a rational human being.
Now, I'm not going to deal with some crazy person. If you absolutely refuse to allow me to touch your cards, so that I have to call a judge to get the complete text of something, I'm going to make sure I touch your cards at every opportunity. My deck is worth more than yours, I guarantee it, cost isn't an issue.
Because you're telling me that I have to cater to you. It's not catering to everyone, because in events of hundreds of people, there's only ever one guy complaining about any of it.
Some kids, usually it's kids, who play this game legitimately have something wrong with them, and they're usually extremely nice, they'll usually explain some things before the match, I have nothing wrong with these kids.
What I do have a problem with is that guy who either doesn't like me personally, or doesn't like 'spikes', or 'hates control' so much that he literally does everything defeatist and grandeously.
Some people are going to shuffle their cards, but when you start calling a Jude because your opponents annoying, that's harassment.
Imagine calling a judge because your opponent was 13?
'judge, he's obnoxious!'
'he's 13?'
'but he won't stop calling me a ******!'
'he's.... 13?'
'he keeps repeating some god damned Internet meme!'
'you need to stop harassing your opponent sir, he's only 13.'
And if you're going to go out of your way to harass me over something that most players do, then you're going to play against the biggest ******* in the world.
If your opp is constantly swearing that can easily fall under unsportsmanlike conduct, it is one of the examples under the minor section
A. A player uses excessively vulgar and profane language.
A player doesn't/shouldn't have to sit there and listen to that language even if they are 13. That doesn't mean to call a judge whenever someone uses profane language, tho the excessive part is up to the judge to determine.
edit: there is a difference between obnoxious and acting unsportsmanlike, someone's age is not a reason to lower the bar for how they should be expected to behave in a tournament setting. Just as I would give the kid a warning if the profanity was excessive, I wouldn't give an opp a warning for being obnoxious (as long as it isn't disruptive to the tournament) no matter their age.
To attempt to put some perspective on this as a senior judge:
Hand flicking is not an issue for the rules of the game. If a person is taking any kind of behaviour - such as hand flicking, swearing, or any of the other distractions etc. mentioned in this thread - to an extreme and are doing so intentionally to intimidate an opponent, then a judge might reasonably get involved. We aren't here to be the behaviour police, or to be censors. But excessive and intentional action is not appropriate.
For the original case in this thread, a player was admitting to flicking cards expressly to create a distraction. I would adjust to the setting of the event: if it's a Regular REL event, I'd remind the player that we're here for fun, and that this kind of tactic isn't really appropriate. If it's Competitive, I'm probably just going to ask the player directly to stop.
And as a footnore to Caiaphas' post: I am presuming that this is intended as satire / sarcasm, but tone is hard to read in text posts. But just to be clear: making your opponent physically uncomfortable by invading their personal space is not only not appropriate for a tournament setting, but may be against laws in your local area also. I encourage you to concentrate on winning by playing the game, not the player.
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There is no judge that's going to do anything about a player shuffling their hand. They would have to be shuffling extremely obnoxiously for a judge to get involved.
Did you see the post earlier on from the judge who said he would so something about it?
The problem is not shuffling your hand - I do it too - it's the amount of noise made during the act - and whether you are trying to annoy the hell out of the other player or not.
If you shuffle out of a tick, or habit, shuffle to really obfuscate which cards you drew and make it harder for your opponent to guess what you dew, that's one thing - and if you're being a *little* noisy, or trying not to be and make a little noise, that is very very understandable... but IMO intentionally doing it as noisily as possible, trying to make as much noise as possible, which seems to be the point of this thread, is one hell of a line to cross.
Bingo. That's the issue for me. It's not the hand shuffling, it's the extremely loud "flickflickflickflickflick" noise that accompanies it. I shuffle my hand around too, and I don't make noise doing it, nor do I do it obsessively.
And don't tell me "you can't help it". I don't buy that for a second. You weren't doing it earlier in the match, you only started when I had to think about a decision for a minute. And there's an easy way to stop - hold the cards in one hand. Or put them on the table.
To be honest, the noise doesn't really affect me when I'm playing. For some reason, it's when I'm trying to -watch- a game where I get really distracted by it.
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To attempt to put some perspective on this as a senior judge:
Hand flicking is not an issue for the rules of the game. If a person is taking any kind of behaviour - such as hand flicking, swearing, or any of the other distractions etc. mentioned in this thread - to an extreme and are doing so intentionally to intimidate an opponent, then a judge might reasonably get involved. We aren't here to be the behaviour police, or to be censors. But excessive and intentional action is not appropriate.
Quality stuff, quick question. At what point could a player call a judge at a Competitive REL due to loudness and nonstop body movement of your oppenent when shuffling their hand around?
Quality stuff, quick question. At what point could a player call a judge at a Competitive REL due to loudness and nonstop body movement of your oppenent when shuffling their hand around?
I'd always recommend just asking nicely first. If they do it as a habit then that's that, and hopefully they'll do what they can to minimise the distraction (again judges aren't the niceness police).
If they admit to doing it intentionally to cause annoyance, then perhaps a word with a judge would be wise. I can't promise that all judges will feel this way about the situation, but many of us would like to avoid players indulging in unnecessary gamesmanship of this sort.
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Most hand shufflers I meet are nervous wrecks. Hand shuffling, shakey hands...
Unfortunately for me, that's pretty much true. Like i said earlier, i have terrible anxiety and shuffling my hand around constantly helps keep my hands from shaking and keep me focused. I don't think that should be a big deal. And i can't see how that bothers anyone.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Unfortunately for me, that's pretty much true. Like i said earlier, i have terrible anxiety and shuffling my hand around constantly helps keep my hands from shaking and keep me focused. I don't think that should be a big deal. And i can't see how that bothers anyone.
This. And if my constant shuffling seems to upset you in any way, well, welcome to my world. Everything else happening in the room is probably bothering me. I deal with it by listening to music and shuffling my hand, you'll have to find your own ways to cope.
I, as a general rule, do not give a crap how my opponent feels. I do not need to, I am not supposed to, and I don't want to.
If my opponent thinks he's the only special snowflake of unique specialness who needs to be adhered to and spoken to softly or else he'll cry, then he's probably going to cry when I don't speak softly, and if it takes too long I'm calling a judge.
That being said I'd never go out of my way to make someone cry, but clearly the people that get 'so offended by minor things like hand shuffling, to the point where they will multiple times call a judge on me, I will assume that I am not dealing with a rational human being.
Now, I'm not going to deal with some crazy person. If you absolutely refuse to allow me to touch your cards, so that I have to call a judge to get the complete text of something, I'm going to make sure I touch your cards at every opportunity. My deck is worth more than yours, I guarantee it, cost isn't an issue.
Because you're telling me that I have to cater to you. It's not catering to everyone, because in events of hundreds of people, there's only ever one guy complaining about any of it.
Some kids, usually it's kids, who play this game legitimately have something wrong with them, and they're usually extremely nice, they'll usually explain some things before the match, I have nothing wrong with these kids.
What I do have a problem with is that guy who either doesn't like me personally, or doesn't like 'spikes', or 'hates control' so much that he literally does everything defeatist and grandeously.
Some people are going to shuffle their cards, but when you start calling a Jude because your opponents annoying, that's harassment.
Imagine calling a judge because your opponent was 13?
'judge, he's obnoxious!'
'he's 13?'
'but he won't stop calling me a ******!'
'he's.... 13?'
'he keeps repeating some god damned Internet meme!'
'you need to stop harassing your opponent sir, he's only 13.'
And if you're going to go out of your way to harass me over something that most players do, then you're going to play against the biggest ******* in the world.
Please refer to the first line in your post
It is you that is being asked to stop the Harassment. The request for you to stop is not Harassment. Get it?
Harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n.
1. To irritate or torment persistently.
2. To wear out; exhaust.
3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.
Query: "Judge, I find his constant hand flicking to be irritating and tormenting, I've asked my opponent to stop creating this noise distraction but he refuses. Please stop this harassment"
Your response "Judge, he keeps asking me to stop flicking my cards, that's harassment" FLICKFLICKFLICK
I'll admit, I'm a hand shuffler. I don't know why I do it, but I try not to be loud, obnoxious, or "tryhard" about it. Hell, I "shuffle" my hand on MODO and Cocktrice as well.
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to those who think they can get an advantage by flicking/generally being annoying... that's just sad. Such behavior is ridiculous at the FNM level and won't work against the pros anyway.
to those who can't focus because of their opponent's annoying behavior... welcome to life. learn to focus. you'll be better at magic AND life. believe me... it's hard for me to remain calm and focused while i calmly explain to a cardiologist over the phone why he needs to drop everything and come NOW while my patient is about to code, every alarm imaginable is going off, and i'm answering rapid-fire questions from ten other staff/family members. but i'll tell you it has worked wonders for focusing through people's ridiculous attempts to distract me.
To those who can't focus without their own flicking... learn to focus. I PROMISE the flicking is distracting you too, and often more than your opponent. Again, if you learn to focus regardless of circumstance, you'll be better at magic and life.
to those who think they can get an advantage by flicking/generally being annoying... that's just sad. Such behavior is ridiculous at the FNM level and won't work against the pros anyway.
to those who can't focus because of their opponent's annoying behavior... welcome to life. learn to focus. you'll be better at magic AND life. believe me... it's hard for me to remain calm and focused while i calmly explain to a cardiologist over the phone why he needs to drop everything and come NOW while my patient is about to code, every alarm imaginable is going off, and i'm answering rapid-fire questions from ten other staff/family members. but i'll tell you it has worked wonders for focusing through people's ridiculous attempts to distract me.
To those who can't focus without their own flicking... learn to focus. I PROMISE the flicking is distracting you too, and often more than your opponent. Again, if you learn to focus regardless of circumstance, you'll be better at magic and life.
This is easily one of the most ridiculous posts on this thread, and that's saying something. You're a nurse(or something in the medical field), good job. As somebody in the medical field you should know better than that. "Learn to focus regardless of the circumstance" sure.
I'll echo one of the early replies and say that when I started playing, nobody constantly shuffled their cards. Mix them up after their draw to hide which card they just drew, yes, but nothing more.
I'm quite certain it's just a fad that people pick up, maybe unconsciously, at their LGS from seeing others do it.
I've never seen seen a bridge or poker player do that, and they have more at stake in their games. Judges made a bad precedent by allowing Kibler to go on and on on camera for all these years.
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You people have lost it. Seriously, almost everyone i know and see playing magic shuffles their hand. They aren't trying to get a leg up by distracting you(ok, maybe some are, but not most) Most do it to think, to calm nerves, and even just out of habit after playing magic for so long. I really can't understand how this bothers people so much?!
There is no judge that's going to do anything about a player shuffling their hand. They would have to be shuffling extremely obnoxiously for a judge to get involved.
Do you think we mean no one should shuffle their hands, if you look at what is said it is clear we don't mind you shuffling your hand until it gets to the point where the noise, very rapid motion become a distraction. even if they aren't trying to distract, it can still become a distraction if they do it in certain ways. All we ask is if they do find it a distraction is to try and curb the motion to mitigate it.
Judge my opponent has a spider on his shirt and I suffer from arachnophobia, I've asked him to remove his shirt or tape a piece of paper over the picture and he failed to comply. It is hindering my ability to play magic and you should watch for poor sportsmanship.
Standard: UB control.
I'd expect the judge to look at you awkwardly, and inform you that life isn't going to accommodate itself to you.
Lots of high level players flick their cards, if you plan to play at that level you should learn to deal with it.
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And you know, I quite like it.
So in the event I met a hand shuffler who did it "intentionally" to annoy their opponent, it would have no negative effect on me.
Like a rock imo
Nothing he can do will change what cards you both started with; if your FNM is draft your gonna lose anyway if he played 7 creatures in a row and you played 2.
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If my opponent thinks he's the only special snowflake of unique specialness who needs to be adhered to and spoken to softly or else he'll cry, then he's probably going to cry when I don't speak softly, and if it takes too long I'm calling a judge.
That being said I'd never go out of my way to make someone cry, but clearly the people that get 'so offended by minor things like hand shuffling, to the point where they will multiple times call a judge on me, I will assume that I am not dealing with a rational human being.
Now, I'm not going to deal with some crazy person. If you absolutely refuse to allow me to touch your cards, so that I have to call a judge to get the complete text of something, I'm going to make sure I touch your cards at every opportunity. My deck is worth more than yours, I guarantee it, cost isn't an issue.
Because you're telling me that I have to cater to you. It's not catering to everyone, because in events of hundreds of people, there's only ever one guy complaining about any of it.
Some kids, usually it's kids, who play this game legitimately have something wrong with them, and they're usually extremely nice, they'll usually explain some things before the match, I have nothing wrong with these kids.
What I do have a problem with is that guy who either doesn't like me personally, or doesn't like 'spikes', or 'hates control' so much that he literally does everything defeatist and grandeously.
Some people are going to shuffle their cards, but when you start calling a Jude because your opponents annoying, that's harassment.
Imagine calling a judge because your opponent was 13?
'judge, he's obnoxious!'
'he's 13?'
'but he won't stop calling me a ******!'
'he's.... 13?'
'he keeps repeating some god damned Internet meme!'
'you need to stop harassing your opponent sir, he's only 13.'
And if you're going to go out of your way to harass me over something that most players do, then you're going to play against the biggest ******* in the world.
A. A player uses excessively vulgar and profane language.
A player doesn't/shouldn't have to sit there and listen to that language even if they are 13. That doesn't mean to call a judge whenever someone uses profane language, tho the excessive part is up to the judge to determine.
edit: there is a difference between obnoxious and acting unsportsmanlike, someone's age is not a reason to lower the bar for how they should be expected to behave in a tournament setting. Just as I would give the kid a warning if the profanity was excessive, I wouldn't give an opp a warning for being obnoxious (as long as it isn't disruptive to the tournament) no matter their age.
Hand flicking is not an issue for the rules of the game. If a person is taking any kind of behaviour - such as hand flicking, swearing, or any of the other distractions etc. mentioned in this thread - to an extreme and are doing so intentionally to intimidate an opponent, then a judge might reasonably get involved. We aren't here to be the behaviour police, or to be censors. But excessive and intentional action is not appropriate.
For the original case in this thread, a player was admitting to flicking cards expressly to create a distraction. I would adjust to the setting of the event: if it's a Regular REL event, I'd remind the player that we're here for fun, and that this kind of tactic isn't really appropriate. If it's Competitive, I'm probably just going to ask the player directly to stop.
And as a footnore to Caiaphas' post: I am presuming that this is intended as satire / sarcasm, but tone is hard to read in text posts. But just to be clear: making your opponent physically uncomfortable by invading their personal space is not only not appropriate for a tournament setting, but may be against laws in your local area also. I encourage you to concentrate on winning by playing the game, not the player.
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Did you see the post earlier on from the judge who said he would so something about it?
Bingo. That's the issue for me. It's not the hand shuffling, it's the extremely loud "flickflickflickflickflick" noise that accompanies it. I shuffle my hand around too, and I don't make noise doing it, nor do I do it obsessively.
And don't tell me "you can't help it". I don't buy that for a second. You weren't doing it earlier in the match, you only started when I had to think about a decision for a minute. And there's an easy way to stop - hold the cards in one hand. Or put them on the table.
To be honest, the noise doesn't really affect me when I'm playing. For some reason, it's when I'm trying to -watch- a game where I get really distracted by it.
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Quality stuff, quick question. At what point could a player call a judge at a Competitive REL due to loudness and nonstop body movement of your oppenent when shuffling their hand around?
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I'd always recommend just asking nicely first. If they do it as a habit then that's that, and hopefully they'll do what they can to minimise the distraction (again judges aren't the niceness police).
If they admit to doing it intentionally to cause annoyance, then perhaps a word with a judge would be wise. I can't promise that all judges will feel this way about the situation, but many of us would like to avoid players indulging in unnecessary gamesmanship of this sort.
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Unfortunately for me, that's pretty much true. Like i said earlier, i have terrible anxiety and shuffling my hand around constantly helps keep my hands from shaking and keep me focused. I don't think that should be a big deal. And i can't see how that bothers anyone.
This. And if my constant shuffling seems to upset you in any way, well, welcome to my world. Everything else happening in the room is probably bothering me. I deal with it by listening to music and shuffling my hand, you'll have to find your own ways to cope.
Standard: UB control.
Please refer to the first line in your post
It is you that is being asked to stop the Harassment. The request for you to stop is not Harassment. Get it?
Harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n.
1. To irritate or torment persistently.
2. To wear out; exhaust.
3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.
Query: "Judge, I find his constant hand flicking to be irritating and tormenting, I've asked my opponent to stop creating this noise distraction but he refuses. Please stop this harassment"
Your response "Judge, he keeps asking me to stop flicking my cards, that's harassment" FLICKFLICKFLICK
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Quotes:
to those who can't focus because of their opponent's annoying behavior... welcome to life. learn to focus. you'll be better at magic AND life. believe me... it's hard for me to remain calm and focused while i calmly explain to a cardiologist over the phone why he needs to drop everything and come NOW while my patient is about to code, every alarm imaginable is going off, and i'm answering rapid-fire questions from ten other staff/family members. but i'll tell you it has worked wonders for focusing through people's ridiculous attempts to distract me.
To those who can't focus without their own flicking... learn to focus. I PROMISE the flicking is distracting you too, and often more than your opponent. Again, if you learn to focus regardless of circumstance, you'll be better at magic and life.
This is easily one of the most ridiculous posts on this thread, and that's saying something. You're a nurse(or something in the medical field), good job. As somebody in the medical field you should know better than that. "Learn to focus regardless of the circumstance" sure.
Standard: UB control.
I'm quite certain it's just a fad that people pick up, maybe unconsciously, at their LGS from seeing others do it.
I've never seen seen a bridge or poker player do that, and they have more at stake in their games. Judges made a bad precedent by allowing Kibler to go on and on on camera for all these years.