Sylvan Primordial hits any non-creature permanent. Planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments and lands (to include non-basics) are all viable targets.
Sundering Titan only touches things with basic land types (so, basic lands and duals/shocks), it must destroy one of each type, and it does so when it enters and when it leaves. If you're the only guy at the table playing red, a Sundering Titan hits you twice. If you happen to be the only guy at the table playing red and white, you're getting hit four times.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
I have to say Sylvan is pretty broken in my Animar deck. A Natural Order in my opening hand pretty much means folks are scooping. I usually play 1v1 and even there he shines. My deck has ridiculous ramp already and setting someone that far back on T3 while getting more ramp is silly. He also fixes mana by letting you grab the dual land you may need. If he's not removed then and there all the clones and bounce effects in my deck make him a terror.
Even mid game he's workable because with Animar he costs so little to play. He's also a back breaking lead into Ulamog.
The thing with this whole "turn 3" argument is that there are a whole slew of cards that, when they hit the board that early thanks to reanimate or whatever, are essentially finishers. It's not a unique situation that Sylvan is now exploiting.
I like these cards and while it sucks to be on the receiving end of them, am happy with the challenges they create.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
This is when the game gets skewed. Specific hosers to stop specific spells is when the game will start going downhill.
Running cards like Boil or Acid Rain is just like running Armageddon and Anarchy...
Viable board wipes. Maybe not accepted in a non-competitive environment, but if it helps me win packs and points, then why would I run something less efficient?
But I do see your point, they are "jerk" cards.
They're pretty fun and pretty powerful in general. The game feels a little focused on them at times, but that'll pass as they get older.
My biggest complaint is that I don't like Sylvan's design. Every other Primordial relies on your opponents to get full value. Do all of your opponents have a creature in the graveyard? If not, Sepulchral can't get full value. It makes for interesting decisions - do you wait to nab a bonus creature, or is now the right time? Sylvan has no such choice because it can hit lands. There is only one correct time to play Sylvan - as soon as possible! It should have been noncreature, nonland to make it more interesting and slightly less powerful.
EOT sylvan primordial is sick awsome, then at your turn cast venser pw.... destroy all other permanents! again! and again! and AGAIN!
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Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
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Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
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I'm actually kind of surprised to see so many people cutting down the white one. He's still a removal spell with a respectable body on legs. The life gain is mostly irrelevant.
Sure, he lacks the theft abilities/pseudo GY hate of U or B. And yes, he's not a game changer like the R or G prime. But he's still an option worthy of consideration in Blink based strategies, which-last time I checked-are still popular.
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The white one is nice... I don't think he is the right choice for certain decks.
At 7CMC I would much rather ramp into elesh norn. i run pod in my karador deck so I owuld rather pod into another primodial, then akroma too.
Boardwipes are better as well sometimes - yeah you exile creatures so against some generals like karador or mimeoplasm that is better, but I would rather have a wrath of god or damnation.
Now in bant decks or something else the white one might be more viable. I can see it being a nice exchange of creature. Its Swords on a creature, just not my flavor of removal.
The red one is the same way. AWESOME in some decks, not worthy in others - whereas the green, black, and blue ones are easy splashes because they will always get value out of them. People will always have lands to destroy, creatures to hate out, and spells to cast.
They are okay. In my experience since there release, I have not found them to be too backbreaking in my EDH group. The worst that happened was the blue one hitting 3 different time warp effects from 3 different graveyards because of the mill player.
People need to just adapt. My Azusa deck can pretty much blank every Primordial effect in some fashion.
Sepulchral Primordial is an all-star when there are full graveyards and a few dead clones.
See, I love the ability of Sepulchral... except my LGS and the playgroup don't play super creature heavy decks... so I might get like Anger or the occasional simulacrum.
Still better than nothing - just... meh.
the Primordials are a step in the right direction for EDH. While they prolong the "ETB" creature design, which in my mind is less than innovative, they continue to increase multiplayer interaction, which is an over all net positive for the format and for the game.
My biggest complaint about them is they all seem a bit varied in power level. The color pie does not have to limit power level. Yes they are all playable, but i'm willing to bet we see more of one color than the other, even when you increase the sample pool to ensure all the colors are represented. I would like to see 5 primordials that are all as viable as Sylvan Primordial.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
I would like to see 5 primordials that are all as viable as Sylvan Primordial.
Now that I disagree with. More interaction, more multiplayer cards, that's all well and good. More super-staples that go in nearly every on-colour deck is not what EDH needs.
The other primordials are plenty powerful - played extensively, but it's not a brainless auto-in.
Now that I disagree with. More interaction, more multiplayer cards, that's all well and good. More super-staples that go in nearly every on-colour deck is not what EDH needs.
The other primordials are plenty powerful - played extensively, but it's not a brainless auto-in.
agreed. while i like alot of the cards with hit multiple opponents (and naturally, with wizards declaring commander an official format we will see more of this) i really dislike generic staple bombs
Every format has staples
Every format has bombs
No format should have both be the same card, especially an eternal format
The thing is, its ok if a bomb fills a need or has a correct time to drop it into play. Its not ok when you draw a bomb and instantly cast it because there is never a bad time to do so
agreed. while i like alot of the cards with hit multiple opponents (and naturally, with wizards declaring commander an official format we will see more of this) i really dislike generic staple bombs
Every format has staples
Every format has bombs
No format should have both be the same card, especially an eternal format
The thing is, its ok if a bomb fills a need or has a correct time to drop it into play. Its not ok when you draw a bomb and instantly cast it because there is never a bad time to do so
wut ?
there's quite a few cards that fit that criteria in the format currently. Primordials are definitely not the first...
Furthermore, who cares if something is a "mindless auto-include" or not ? If the card is good, I use it...I don't subscribe to this hipster "auto includes are boring" school of thought. $10 says you're rocking a Sol Ring in most, if not all your decks....
I'm not hipser enough to not play with Sylvan just because it's powerful, but seeing the same cards again game after game gets dull. It's not going to be the death of the format or anything, but there was that brief period after Primeval Titan was banned (and before Sylvan was printed) when you weren't quite sure what that GSZ might be fetching. That was nice.
there's quite a few cards that fit that criteria in the format currently. Primordials are definitely not the first...
Furthermore, who cares if something is a "mindless auto-include" or not ? If the card is good, I use it...I don't subscribe to this hipster "auto includes are boring" school of thought. $10 says you're rocking a Sol Ring in most, if not all your decks....
did you read what i said? of course i play some staples and yes I do play sol ring in 7/9 of my decks. my point is that bombs (or, put another way, win-conditions) should not be staples. A deck should be able to function just as well without having staple bombs.
when your deck consists of bombs which are staples (ie every deck playing that color should be playing that card), thats where the format is going wrong. There is a major difference between every deck running a sol ring and every deck running a sylvan primordial
But it blows up all the land on turn 2 so it's a huge problem.
Yup.
And a turn 2 Jin-Gitaxis is a bit of a problem too. and Iona, and Blazing Archon, and magister sphinx/sorin, and terastadon, and a plethora of other cards.
Learn to play around it, make a group decision in your playgroup to ban it, or stop playing EDH.
And in all seriousness you should be able to make up for losing a land on turn 2.
And how often is someone going to go "turn 1 dark ritual, entomb sylvan primodrial, reanimate, hit your land" Path to exile is a real card too... try it out.
But it blows up all the land on turn 2 so it's a huge problem.
Meh.
Even if a deck is built so that it can realize a turn 2 Primordial, the odds of that happening are still very low. You can only run one Entomb, after all... and the odds of a player who does land a turn 2 Sylvan Primordial being able to win a game of Archenemy (b/c that's what the game has just turned into, obv.) are narrower still. If it happens once in a great while, fine. EDH is supposed to have crazy stupid games now and then; it's part of the charm.
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Sylvan Primordial can in no way be compared to Sundering Titan.
Sylvan Primordial hits any non-creature permanent. Planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments and lands (to include non-basics) are all viable targets.
Sundering Titan only touches things with basic land types (so, basic lands and duals/shocks), it must destroy one of each type, and it does so when it enters and when it leaves. If you're the only guy at the table playing red, a Sundering Titan hits you twice. If you happen to be the only guy at the table playing red and white, you're getting hit four times.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Even mid game he's workable because with Animar he costs so little to play. He's also a back breaking lead into Ulamog.
Repeat the rhyme with me, kids.
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But the primes are very powerful supreme commanders derived from primus (the lord of the light).
Sorry, non-mtg nerd talk sparked in my head.
Get it? Spark?
Anyway...
I agree, before turn 3 its OP - but still happens.
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I like these cards and while it sucks to be on the receiving end of them, am happy with the challenges they create.
This is when the game gets skewed. Specific hosers to stop specific spells is when the game will start going downhill.
Running cards like Boil or Acid Rain is just like running Armageddon and Anarchy...
Viable board wipes. Maybe not accepted in a non-competitive environment, but if it helps me win packs and points, then why would I run something less efficient?
But I do see your point, they are "jerk" cards.
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I don't always run Duplicant in white decks, but when I do I switch it for Luminate Primordial. Stay exiled, my friends.
My biggest complaint is that I don't like Sylvan's design. Every other Primordial relies on your opponents to get full value. Do all of your opponents have a creature in the graveyard? If not, Sepulchral can't get full value. It makes for interesting decisions - do you wait to nab a bonus creature, or is now the right time? Sylvan has no such choice because it can hit lands. There is only one correct time to play Sylvan - as soon as possible! It should have been noncreature, nonland to make it more interesting and slightly less powerful.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Sure, he lacks the theft abilities/pseudo GY hate of U or B. And yes, he's not a game changer like the R or G prime. But he's still an option worthy of consideration in Blink based strategies, which-last time I checked-are still popular.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
At 7CMC I would much rather ramp into elesh norn. i run pod in my karador deck so I owuld rather pod into another primodial, then akroma too.
Boardwipes are better as well sometimes - yeah you exile creatures so against some generals like karador or mimeoplasm that is better, but I would rather have a wrath of god or damnation.
Now in bant decks or something else the white one might be more viable. I can see it being a nice exchange of creature. Its Swords on a creature, just not my flavor of removal.
The red one is the same way. AWESOME in some decks, not worthy in others - whereas the green, black, and blue ones are easy splashes because they will always get value out of them. People will always have lands to destroy, creatures to hate out, and spells to cast.
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People need to just adapt. My Azusa deck can pretty much blank every Primordial effect in some fashion.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
See, I love the ability of Sepulchral... except my LGS and the playgroup don't play super creature heavy decks... so I might get like Anger or the occasional simulacrum.
Still better than nothing - just... meh.
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My biggest complaint about them is they all seem a bit varied in power level. The color pie does not have to limit power level. Yes they are all playable, but i'm willing to bet we see more of one color than the other, even when you increase the sample pool to ensure all the colors are represented. I would like to see 5 primordials that are all as viable as Sylvan Primordial.
edit: word choice.
EDH:
Currently Piloting:
Dama, Sage of Stone | Karador, Ghost Chieftan | Sigarda, Host of Herons | Elbrus, the Binding Blade / Withengar Unbound | Grand Arbiter Augustin IV | Genju of the Realm | Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Now that I disagree with. More interaction, more multiplayer cards, that's all well and good. More super-staples that go in nearly every on-colour deck is not what EDH needs.
The other primordials are plenty powerful - played extensively, but it's not a brainless auto-in.
agreed. while i like alot of the cards with hit multiple opponents (and naturally, with wizards declaring commander an official format we will see more of this) i really dislike generic staple bombs
Every format has staples
Every format has bombs
No format should have both be the same card, especially an eternal format
The thing is, its ok if a bomb fills a need or has a correct time to drop it into play. Its not ok when you draw a bomb and instantly cast it because there is never a bad time to do so
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
wut ?
there's quite a few cards that fit that criteria in the format currently. Primordials are definitely not the first...
Furthermore, who cares if something is a "mindless auto-include" or not ? If the card is good, I use it...I don't subscribe to this hipster "auto includes are boring" school of thought. $10 says you're rocking a Sol Ring in most, if not all your decks....
did you read what i said? of course i play some staples and yes I do play sol ring in 7/9 of my decks. my point is that bombs (or, put another way, win-conditions) should not be staples. A deck should be able to function just as well without having staple bombs.
when your deck consists of bombs which are staples (ie every deck playing that color should be playing that card), thats where the format is going wrong. There is a major difference between every deck running a sol ring and every deck running a sylvan primordial
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
I was not not not not not playing Sylvan Primordial before it was cool to not play it because it was not before it was cool.
Also, is that card still being complained about? I thought we all got over that.
But it blows up all the land on turn 2 so it's a huge problem.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Yup.
And a turn 2 Jin-Gitaxis is a bit of a problem too. and Iona, and Blazing Archon, and magister sphinx/sorin, and terastadon, and a plethora of other cards.
Learn to play around it, make a group decision in your playgroup to ban it, or stop playing EDH.
And in all seriousness you should be able to make up for losing a land on turn 2.
And how often is someone going to go "turn 1 dark ritual, entomb sylvan primodrial, reanimate, hit your land"
Path to exile is a real card too... try it out.
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Meh.
Even if a deck is built so that it can realize a turn 2 Primordial, the odds of that happening are still very low. You can only run one Entomb, after all... and the odds of a player who does land a turn 2 Sylvan Primordial being able to win a game of Archenemy (b/c that's what the game has just turned into, obv.) are narrower still. If it happens once in a great while, fine. EDH is supposed to have crazy stupid games now and then; it's part of the charm.