His role is generally seen on townies, but he hasn't been doing anything so far today and did nothing yesterday that really made me believe he's town. But why should we lynch him anyway?
Tom's not going to shoot me. He's not bad enough to do it before he sees a claim.
A scum DK would hold onto that DK until LyLo/Winning is guarenteed. Or in a situation where it would be needed. Swishh was not this in anyway, shape or form.
I don't trust Tom and we don't know everything about his role. Your acting as if Tom is preaching gospel to us about him being Town.
Regardless of alignment, Tom would want to use his DK for the Town to appear as Town as possible. But if Tom is Neutral or Scum, then he will likely use his DK for the Town until he gets ready to be lynched and then use his DK accordingly. But Tom cannot be scum with a multiple shot DK. Not in this game at least for balancing purposes. Therefore the only alignment that makes sense for Tom to be is Neutral/SK/Enchantress.
Tom
I am requesting that you full claim. I realize you probably won't, but I want to know everything about your DK. I asked you once prior about this and never saw an answer to it.
Regardless of alignment, Tom would want to use his DK for the Town to appear as Town as possible. But if Tom is Neutral or Scum, then he will likely use his DK for the Town until he gets ready to be lynched and then use his DK accordingly. But Tom cannot be scum with a multiple shot DK. Not in this game at least for balancing purposes. Therefore the only alignment that makes sense for Tom to be is Neutral/SK/Enchantress.
Or he's town. Why is that not even an option? You can be wrong - you were about swishh, Macius and Asenion at least. You talk about the Razor all the time, but that's what it's pointing to here. Considering the Enchantress kill last night, chances are very good that Tom's just playing terribly.
I started a reread with lots of notes and got a third of the way through before I had to go do work. Notes so far are that Tom's pretty scummy, but has one interaction with Guardman that makes him look good (or at least nonscum). Silver's caught my eye and I can't shake Jonpike1's scummy feeling. Stormblind I'm conflicted on, TMCT less so. Now I'm gone for the weekend. See ya'll Tuesday.
And when exactly would that be, Void, that neutral Tom will be ready to get lynched?
Whenever the Town gets their thumbs out of their asses.
Also, Rhand, please explain why Stardust and Seppel is not a dichotomy while your at it. Your post, at the time, did not leave doubt which showed you know that isn't dichotomy.
Just relax Stardust. Come Tomorrow, a lot of this game will be solved one way or another. If you are Town, then your death will be bring the death of scum Seppel.
Ok, I'm rereading and making notes and I'll eventually dump it all here for you people to digest, but I really feel like putting this here before anything:
#84: TMCT: Swish didn’t call you scum. Self-conscious? Also, insinuates wanting to jump on Macius’ wagon
#167: TMCT: Terrible, terrible reason to jump onto Swish’s wagon. Swish was right in stating that you shouldn’t answer stuff directed at Void
#193: Swish: This is actually a good point. Now knowing that GMan is scum, and coupled with TMCT’s stream of self-consciousness in #84, I guess he’s our best scum lead here
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And when exactly would that be, Void, that neutral Tom will be ready to get lynched?
Whenever the Town gets their thumbs out of their asses.
Also, Rhand, please explain why Stardust and Seppel is not a dichotomy while your at it. Your post, at the time, did not leave doubt which showed you know that isn't dichotomy.
Just relax Stardust. Come Tomorrow, a lot of this game will be solved one way or another. If you are Town, then your death will be bring the death of scum Seppel.
That's nonsense. This isn't a dichotomy.
Because you omit the possibility of it being town vs town. If you treat this as a dichotomy, you might be lining up two mislynches.
You say that either can be town hunting the other. Then why can't they both be town?
Flavour feels like Asenion died because he was linked to Guardman's death somehow. Not sure about the third-party thing, but Asenion doesn't make sense as a mafia target anyway since he had lots of suspicion. They probably targeted Kosakosa (who was saved by Void).
I find highly unlikely that I was the NK target and survived due to the vest. Iso sent me the PM saying that I have (note the present tense) a one-shot vest a bit after the Day started, hinting that it resolved at the start of the Day. I don't think I'd have received the message if I had lost the vest in the same Night I earned it, since I wouldn't technically have it no longer.
Until we go through another Night, Occam points Asenion's death to the mafia NK and GMan's to a SK, I suppose.
You didn't comment on this -- please do so.
^ Since that's evidently going to take a few days I'll say right now that I don't care for Stardust. He also called Seppel out for "scum 101" neutral hunting while hiding his arguments behind modgaming of the flavor and setup variety
This is so far beyond what I'd call bad acting that I'm not even sure what I'm reading.
Tom is looking neutral. Looking back at it, his swishh shooting straddled the line between towny and scummy; coming out with it before LyLo and shooting an easy mislynch was anti-mafia, but doing so without any conference with the town was anti-town.
Because he claimed super-Doc. I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that he falseclaimed, but since there wasn't a counterclaim, are we just to assume that a game with this many night/day kill abilities doesn't have a doc at all?
Because he claimed super-Doc. I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that he falseclaimed, but since there wasn't a counterclaim, are we just to assume that a game with this many night/day kill abilities doesn't have a doc at all?
Meh, that's L-2 by my count too. What the **** ever, this trainwreck needs to be gotten over with on deadline day.
I'm Silraven, Water Nymph, Town Healer. Once per Night I may choose a player; if they would be killed they aren't instead. The first time I'm killed in the game, if I've stopped the death of another player I come back to life at the start of the next Day.
You know what, let me put this to bed: I did false-claim. There are elements of truth in the claim but it was largely fabricated to draw and stop the mafia NK (which I have evidence to suggest I did).
And since my role still has heaps of utility, I'm not going to true-claim short of a mass claim so I can continue making the mafia my *****.
As for coming out with what happened D/N1, a) I realized that there's a benefit in the rest of the town knowing what happened given that the mafia already knows (especially seeing it speculated that Asenion was the mafia NK), and b) I want everybody off my back given that Tom shot swishh without warning.
Though I probably should've let Stardust respond to me first. Meh.
You know what, let me put this to bed: I did false-claim. There are elements of truth in the claim but it was largely fabricated to draw and stop the mafia NK (which I have evidence to suggest I did).
And since my role still has heaps of utility, I'm not going to true-claim short of a mass claim so I can continue making the mafia my *****.
So now we have two unexplained kills if the other wasn't an NK.
You know what, let me put this to bed: I did false-claim. There are elements of truth in the claim but it was largely fabricated to draw and stop the mafia NK (which I have evidence to suggest I did).
And since my role still has heaps of utility, I'm not going to true-claim short of a mass claim so I can continue making the mafia my *****.
So now we have two unexplained kills if the other wasn't an NK.
Which puts us right back to Tom again, in my mind. I find it incredibly hard to believe that there could be 3 killing roles + the scum NK. I can believe a lot of things, but that pushes it IMO.
Question: I've heard of setups historically where there has been more than one scum team present within a game. Is that a possibility that we should be considering? It seems like it could conceivably answer a lot of questions.
Based on the number of players in this game I would say no.
It there were two Mafia teams, then the two Mafia teams would have two players each (three being way too many) and then an Enchantress like SK.
14 players to starts the game. Start of Day 2 we would be looking at 11 players barring other abilities we don't know. Day 3 being 8 players. Day 2 being 5 players. The numbers fall way to fast this way for the number of players.
Based on the number of players in this game I would say no.
It there were two Mafia teams, then the two Mafia teams would have two players each (three being way too many) and then an Enchantress like SK.
14 players to starts the game. Start of Day 2 we would be looking at 11 players barring other abilities we don't know. Day 3 being 8 players. Day 2 being 5 players. The numbers fall way to fast this way for the number of players.
Two Mafia teams are very unlikely for this game.
I was actually thinking more like the Enchantress and like one of her servants is one team, with the angel/lich/knight being the other team. But even then, 9 townies is probably pushing it.
Which puts us right back to Tom again, in my mind. I find it incredibly hard to believe that there could be 3 killing roles + the scum NK. I can believe a lot of things, but that pushes it IMO.
BINGO!
So, TMCT, what is your *actual* role, how did you block the NK, and why are you certain the NK was blocked?
Also there cannot be two scum teams as the OP pretty well states it's Lucian, Lich, Knight as the scum and the Enchantress as the anti-town neutral.
Which puts us right back to Tom again, in my mind. I find it incredibly hard to believe that there could be 3 killing roles + the scum NK. I can believe a lot of things, but that pushes it IMO.
BINGO!
So, TMCT, what is your *actual* role, how did you block the NK, and why are you certain the NK was blocked?
How about you shut your fat face and eat pudding; TMCT is absolutely town.
Rhand
Re: Dichotomy, you believe that Tom is Town with the behavior he has exhibited thus far?
Tom is not exhibiting the town behaviour I'm used of him.
I have no scum meta to compare with though.
I don't think we can hold the Swishh kill against him. Swishh was his scummy self.
My gut tells me that Tom has gotten a role with too much power and doesn't know how to use it properly. That says nothing about his alignment: that can go either way. But whatever alignment he is, we can use it as an extra lynch without nightkill for now. As soon as he shoots someone we don't agree with, he's dead.
Rhand
Re: Dichotomy, you believe that Tom is Town with the behavior he has exhibited thus far?
Tom is not exhibiting the town behaviour I'm used of him.
I have no scum meta to compare with though.
I don't think we can hold the Swishh kill against him. Swishh was his scummy self.
My gut tells me that Tom has gotten a role with too much power and doesn't know how to use it properly. That says nothing about his alignment: that can go either way. But whatever alignment he is, we can use it as an extra lynch without nightkill for now. As soon as he shoots someone we don't agree with, he's dead.
This feels risky to me. If you believe Tom to be anti-town, with potentially a role that has "too much power," why would you want to leave him alive? Tampering with things that one does not understand never ends well -- it feels like too much of a gamble. Sure, maybe we could direct Tom's kill for now and use his role like a town vig (whether it is or not), but what if his role ramps up with each successive kill he gets? Like, we're not the designer. Modgaming always fails because you never know what's going on behind the scenes.
My opinion is that Tom is anti-town, and whether he's the SK or scum is frankly irrelevant. We've already got one scum dead. If Tom is scum, then we have 1 scum and 1 SK left. If Tom is SK, then we just have 2 scum left and we don't need to worry about the SK later. I am unwilling to believe that Tom is town. Why chance "controlling him," when we can go with the sure thing: lynch him. Maybe I'm just a more cautious player than you are, but I don't see how this feels like a good idea to you.
And when exactly would that be, Void, that neutral Tom will be ready to get lynched?
Whenever the Town gets their thumbs out of their asses.
Also, Rhand, please explain why Stardust and Seppel is not a dichotomy while your at it. Your post, at the time, did not leave doubt which showed you know that isn't dichotomy.
Just relax Stardust. Come Tomorrow, a lot of this game will be solved one way or another. If you are Town, then your death will be bring the death of scum Seppel.
That's nonsense. This isn't a dichotomy.
Because you omit the possibility of it being town vs town. If you treat this as a dichotomy, you might be lining up two mislynches.
You say that either can be town hunting the other. Then why can't they both be town?
Rhand
Re: Dichotomy, you believe that Tom is Town with the behavior he has exhibited thus far?
Tom is not exhibiting the town behaviour I'm used of him.
I have no scum meta to compare with though.
I don't think we can hold the Swishh kill against him. Swishh was his scummy self.
My gut tells me that Tom has gotten a role with too much power and doesn't know how to use it properly. That says nothing about his alignment: that can go either way. But whatever alignment he is, we can use it as an extra lynch without nightkill for now. As soon as he shoots someone we don't agree with, he's dead.
These two posts do not mesh together.
How can you tell me that I am not allowing for a Town read when you yourself don't have a Town read on Tom?
Regardless of meta, Tom is behaving scum like.
I'm not holding the Swishh kill against him. I'm only saying that anyone could have done what Tom did and be viewed as getting rid of someone who was Town that behaved scummy.
The only way Tom will kill anyone is once we know their claim and decide whether the DK is worth it. And I for one do not want to out information so that Tom can utilize his DK better for whatever faction he is with.
If Tom is not lynch for toDay, then you should be, Rhand, for that last post. Either you didn't think this through or you are scum. Either way, you are now my number one suspect for being scum.
To both Silver and Void: I am not saying that I think Tom is not town.
You're both reading stuff that isn't there.
I don't know Tom's alignment and I don't have a strong enough 'not town'-read on him to lynch him. I'm not lynching a possible vig if I'm not sure that isn't what he is.
And neither should you.
To both Silver and Void: I am not saying that I think Tom is not town.
You're both reading stuff that isn't there.
I don't know Tom's alignment and I don't have a strong enough 'not town'-read on him to lynch him. I'm not lynching a possible vig if I'm not sure that isn't what he is.
And neither should you.
Uhg, I hate double negatives. They make what is normally simple to understand not so easy.
If Tom is not exhibiting the Town behavior that you are use too, then what logical explanation would there be? For you to say "I don't have enough of a 'non-town' read to lnych him" after saying your double negative shows an inconsistency within the same post.
For the sake of everyone in this game, what is your current read on Tom?
Which puts us right back to Tom again, in my mind. I find it incredibly hard to believe that there could be 3 killing roles + the scum NK. I can believe a lot of things, but that pushes it IMO.
Are you saying that you don't believe I'm a killing role? Cuz I thought I already proved it.
"Nice case" as in that's exactly what I was thinking:
Tom's not going to shoot me. He's not bad enough to do it before he sees a claim.
I don't trust Tom and we don't know everything about his role. Your acting as if Tom is preaching gospel to us about him being Town.
Regardless of alignment, Tom would want to use his DK for the Town to appear as Town as possible. But if Tom is Neutral or Scum, then he will likely use his DK for the Town until he gets ready to be lynched and then use his DK accordingly. But Tom cannot be scum with a multiple shot DK. Not in this game at least for balancing purposes. Therefore the only alignment that makes sense for Tom to be is Neutral/SK/Enchantress.
Tom
I am requesting that you full claim. I realize you probably won't, but I want to know everything about your DK. I asked you once prior about this and never saw an answer to it.
Why isn't Seppel at L-2 yet?
Or he's town. Why is that not even an option? You can be wrong - you were about swishh, Macius and Asenion at least. You talk about the Razor all the time, but that's what it's pointing to here. Considering the Enchantress kill last night, chances are very good that Tom's just playing terribly.
I started a reread with lots of notes and got a third of the way through before I had to go do work. Notes so far are that Tom's pretty scummy, but has one interaction with Guardman that makes him look good (or at least nonscum). Silver's caught my eye and I can't shake Jonpike1's scummy feeling. Stormblind I'm conflicted on, TMCT less so. Now I'm gone for the weekend. See ya'll Tuesday.
Iso! I'm V/LA until May 21!
Whenever the Town gets their thumbs out of their asses.
Also, Rhand, please explain why Stardust and Seppel is not a dichotomy while your at it. Your post, at the time, did not leave doubt which showed you know that isn't dichotomy.
Your post for reference:
#84: TMCT: Swish didn’t call you scum. Self-conscious? Also, insinuates wanting to jump on Macius’ wagon
#167: TMCT: Terrible, terrible reason to jump onto Swish’s wagon. Swish was right in stating that you shouldn’t answer stuff directed at Void
#193: Swish: This is actually a good point. Now knowing that GMan is scum, and coupled with TMCT’s stream of self-consciousness in #84, I guess he’s our best scum lead here
Unvote
Vote TMCT
Discuss.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can we get a prod?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You're not fooling anyone it's in the OP.
Because you omit the possibility of it being town vs town. If you treat this as a dichotomy, you might be lining up two mislynches.
You say that either can be town hunting the other. Then why can't they both be town?
You didn't comment on this -- please do so.
^ Since that's evidently going to take a few days I'll say right now that I don't care for Stardust. He also called Seppel out for "scum 101" neutral hunting while hiding his arguments behind modgaming of the flavor and setup variety
This is so far beyond what I'd call bad acting that I'm not even sure what I'm reading.
Tom is looking neutral. Looking back at it, his swishh shooting straddled the line between towny and scummy; coming out with it before LyLo and shooting an easy mislynch was anti-mafia, but doing so without any conference with the town was anti-town.
So I support a Tom claim.
What changed?
What's the point of this question, Rhand?
Void's response made me realize that was not what he meant.
I support the Tom claim so we can get clarity on his role.
(I won't vote him because I don't want to risk a quicklynch on our maybe vig.)
I've completely forgotten why I wanted to get back to it.
At least you're honest
Noted.
unvote, vote TMCT
Because he claimed super-Doc. I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that he falseclaimed, but since there wasn't a counterclaim, are we just to assume that a game with this many night/day kill abilities doesn't have a doc at all?
Where did TMCT claim?
@Void
And since my role still has heaps of utility, I'm not going to true-claim short of a mass claim so I can continue making the mafia my *****.
Tmct: do you often run town gambits?
I think you know the answer to that.
(And who is that facepalm directed at?)
Well this one was better than Innistrad;
At the very least it wasn't bad.
Any other examples than Innistrad?
Why did you choose to end the gambit now?
Re: Dichotomy, you believe that Tom is Town with the behavior he has exhibited thus far?
Do you think Stormblind can be scum without Stardust?
In my two other town games, no. I was pseudo-vanilla in both of those.
Oh, it's not over
As for coming out with what happened D/N1, a) I realized that there's a benefit in the rest of the town knowing what happened given that the mafia already knows (especially seeing it speculated that Asenion was the mafia NK), and b) I want everybody off my back given that Tom shot swishh without warning.
Though I probably should've let Stardust respond to me first. Meh.
So now we have two unexplained kills if the other wasn't an NK.
Which puts us right back to Tom again, in my mind. I find it incredibly hard to believe that there could be 3 killing roles + the scum NK. I can believe a lot of things, but that pushes it IMO.
Question: I've heard of setups historically where there has been more than one scum team present within a game. Is that a possibility that we should be considering? It seems like it could conceivably answer a lot of questions.
It there were two Mafia teams, then the two Mafia teams would have two players each (three being way too many) and then an Enchantress like SK.
14 players to starts the game. Start of Day 2 we would be looking at 11 players barring other abilities we don't know. Day 3 being 8 players. Day 2 being 5 players. The numbers fall way to fast this way for the number of players.
Two Mafia teams are very unlikely for this game.
I was actually thinking more like the Enchantress and like one of her servants is one team, with the angel/lich/knight being the other team. But even then, 9 townies is probably pushing it.
BINGO!
So, TMCT, what is your *actual* role, how did you block the NK, and why are you certain the NK was blocked?
Also there cannot be two scum teams as the OP pretty well states it's Lucian, Lich, Knight as the scum and the Enchantress as the anti-town neutral.
How about you shut your fat face and eat pudding; TMCT is absolutely town.
Unvote, vote Wheat
Tom is not exhibiting the town behaviour I'm used of him.
I have no scum meta to compare with though.
I don't think we can hold the Swishh kill against him. Swishh was his scummy self.
My gut tells me that Tom has gotten a role with too much power and doesn't know how to use it properly. That says nothing about his alignment: that can go either way. But whatever alignment he is, we can use it as an extra lynch without nightkill for now. As soon as he shoots someone we don't agree with, he's dead.
This feels risky to me. If you believe Tom to be anti-town, with potentially a role that has "too much power," why would you want to leave him alive? Tampering with things that one does not understand never ends well -- it feels like too much of a gamble. Sure, maybe we could direct Tom's kill for now and use his role like a town vig (whether it is or not), but what if his role ramps up with each successive kill he gets? Like, we're not the designer. Modgaming always fails because you never know what's going on behind the scenes.
My opinion is that Tom is anti-town, and whether he's the SK or scum is frankly irrelevant. We've already got one scum dead. If Tom is scum, then we have 1 scum and 1 SK left. If Tom is SK, then we just have 2 scum left and we don't need to worry about the SK later. I am unwilling to believe that Tom is town. Why chance "controlling him," when we can go with the sure thing: lynch him. Maybe I'm just a more cautious player than you are, but I don't see how this feels like a good idea to you.
These two posts do not mesh together.
How can you tell me that I am not allowing for a Town read when you yourself don't have a Town read on Tom?
Regardless of meta, Tom is behaving scum like.
I'm not holding the Swishh kill against him. I'm only saying that anyone could have done what Tom did and be viewed as getting rid of someone who was Town that behaved scummy.
The only way Tom will kill anyone is once we know their claim and decide whether the DK is worth it. And I for one do not want to out information so that Tom can utilize his DK better for whatever faction he is with.
If Tom is not lynch for toDay, then you should be, Rhand, for that last post. Either you didn't think this through or you are scum. Either way, you are now my number one suspect for being scum.
You're both reading stuff that isn't there.
I don't know Tom's alignment and I don't have a strong enough 'not town'-read on him to lynch him. I'm not lynching a possible vig if I'm not sure that isn't what he is.
And neither should you.
Uhg, I hate double negatives. They make what is normally simple to understand not so easy.
If Tom is not exhibiting the Town behavior that you are use too, then what logical explanation would there be? For you to say "I don't have enough of a 'non-town' read to lnych him" after saying your double negative shows an inconsistency within the same post.
For the sake of everyone in this game, what is your current read on Tom?
Rhand, did you look at my case on Tom?
This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 12 seconds.
How about you stuff your fat face and buy some of my cakes?
I never said he was scum, btw. I wanted to know *why* he's so sure he stopped the NK because if he did this game is "Too Many Killing Roles Mafia".
Are you saying that you don't believe I'm a killing role? Cuz I thought I already proved it.