I'm really raging now. I had a huge post typed up with dozens of quotes and it's all gone.
Anyway, in that post I talked about Seppel's use of modgaming to imply that DYH is town, which is bogus in this day and age, his subtle attempt to incriminate me by stating that he asked me a question "two game days ago", thus implying that I have been dodging that question, when in reality it was at the end of D1 and was 7 RL days ago, 6 of which have been night phase, reminded him that he has failed to answer the question I asked him here:
Voxx makes a very good point about Cyouni. But before I come to a decision--
This is the only mention of Cyouni he made in the post to which you refer (746):
"I don't... really want to lynch Cyouni. Him being able to grant an extra vote with his track seems super provable and townsided."
Can you now please identify what exactly the "very good point about Cyouni" in that sentence is?
about Voxxicus's "point" (or lack thereof) about Cyouni, and discussed Stardust's behavior (that question was 2 game days, or 10 RL days, ago, if we're being pedantic.)
I also discussed Stardust, which I will recompile in abridged form here.
98: He fence-sits on Caex's alignment after a dreadful OMGUS vote by Caex.
130: Not interested in going after (scum) Caex, because (town) Zionite is where we should be focused at present.
230: Quoting it in its entirety:
1) I wasn't. That's why I asked him to claim.
2) I wasn't expecting it, but vanilla is the probably the most common claim. This is only relevant with regards to the third point here.
3) The list of reads may be helpful regardless of his role, but I only wanted it immediately if I was going to go ahead and lynch him right away. If he claimed a PR (as he did) a discussion should happen before he posts his reads (no point outing who he's most likely to target, for example). If he'd claimed vanilla I would have voted for him immediately and wanted the list as something to look at going into Day 2. I may still ask for the list, but only once I'm ready to lynch.
As for the lynch, I'm feeling a little unsure about lynching an unCC'd PR Day 1, but Caex is pretty scummy... I don't think I've been in a game where scum claimed a PR yet, but I have been in a game where a town PR was lynched. Is this the best choice here? I'm really not sure. We'll see how Caex responds to the questions being asked of him. I also want to do a reread before I add my vote to really make sure we're not making a mistake here.
Check out the excuse-me language he uses there as regards Caex's lynch. I pulled him up on it earlier in my notes, but re-reading after Caex's scum flip, it makes grim viewing. A combination of noob card, repetition of "PR", and fence-sitting does not bode well for Star's relationship with Caex.
248/250: Subtle difference in language as relates to town Zionite and scum Caex. When scum Caex is caught in an inconsistency, Star asks him questions about it, possibly although not necessarily trying to offer him a chance to talk his way out of it. When town Zionite is caught in an inconsistency, he's "changing his story."
273: Again with the "un-CC'ed PR" stuff, he hops off scum Caex and town Zionite in favor of town DRey. Worth noting he never actually voted Caex.
395: In his scumlist, Caex is likely scum but he doesn't want to go there today, whereas Zionite is scum and WoLG is of dubious alignment.
416: Non-committal defense of Caex. CC has "decent reasons" for voting Caex, but the case isn't "open and shut."
425: Part of why Che is scum is because he pushed at Caex after the claim. So in just 9 posts, we've gone from Caex being a scum possibility to Caex's town status being so unimpeachable that attacking him makes you scummier.
909/910: Possible fish for information about the jailer? Also, look at how Stardust has been so willing to give Caex second chances. I thought this guy was scum throughout all of D1, and Star opens D2 by calling him scum before he's said anything. Why even entertain the neutral possibility?
There's more. All of D1 is riddled with Star going "ohh, Caex's behavior is bad, but he's the cop, so we should leave him alone, but make sure you remember that I never said he was town."
I'm comfortable with starting the day with a vote: Stardust.
I think two of Wessel, Stardust and Seppel are scum - in that order.
DYH is the distant 4th possibility, but despite my extreme dislike for his play this game, Kpaca's early interactions read as more genuine, and isn't terribly likely to have been scum with Caex.
I believe Zionite, and therefore consider Zindabad town.
I just don't see the point of claiming more than I already have; it doesn't serve any purpose other than giving the scum information, the town knows I'm town.
Color me very skeptical.
Ok, be skeptical. But me revealing more than "one shot cop, zindabad town" is detrimental to town play. If a situation comes up where the rest of my role is relevant, I'll let you know. I just don't see how you can still need information from me based on the last two Days. To think I'm scum is to think I've been an amazing actor for months and that the town doesn't have a cop, a conclusion which is so elastic that it would make stretch armstrong jealous.
Also, I'm sorry I stepped on your toes trying to out the jailer, but I was 1) anxious to CC Obvscum, and 2) Ready to clear zindabad as he was high on my suspects list. But I get that screwing up that gambit wasn't the optimal play, so I apologize.
I think two of Wessel, Stardust and Seppel are scum - in that order.
DYH is the distant 4th possibility, but despite my extreme dislike for his play this game, Kpaca's early interactions read as more genuine, and isn't terribly likely to have been scum with Caex.
I believe Zionite, and therefore consider Zindabad town.
WoLG is town.
Vote: Wessel
I'm in agreement with you, sans Seppel and WoLG.
Seppel has been tremendously pro-active this game and I don't think he would have considered a Day 2 plan to out the jailer without being town or especially brilliant. It's possible, but not likely.
I'm not sold on WoLG being town. We know that false claims are probably, if not definitely, present. The general lack of info on WoLG except the name claim gives me pause, and the fact that we only got the name after we guessed "Gollum/Smeagol" makes me think he's a neutral with a false claim. This lines up with the scum motivation to be "scum-hunting" the neutral on Day 2 and explains the role better than the twins claim. There's also Caex's last words to consider, that despite being outed he still maintained that WoLG wasn't town. That said, I'm not particularly interested in lynching him. We have NKs to worry about.
When I get some time I'll do a wagon analysis from the Day 1 Caex string up with a focus on Wessel and Stardust, as I think it was particularly telling at the time. But for now I'm happy to move to Stardust. Unvote, vote Stardust
DYH: Do you mind going further in depth of why Seppel and Voxxicus are your leads? You touched on it but I'd like to see more since I have a conflicting viewpoint.
Context: Immediately after Caex claims cop. Neither Wessel nor Stardust are on the Caex wagon for claim, but Seppel's role, DYH's role, Xyre and myself are. Voxxicus (Che) makes the 5th.
Caex, I'm ready to vote for you anytime now, so a claim would be appreciated. If you claim vanilla, a list of reads with reasons would be helpful too. Thanks.
Three questions. Why were you willing to put Caex to L-1 without a claim from him? And secondly, why were you expecting a vanilla claim? And thirdly, why is a list of reads helpful only if he claims vanilla?
I think I really screwed myself this game. When I saw my role PM I basically thought "Hey, I'm unlynchable!" I took it as an excuse to play faster and looser than I normally would. Which is probably why I'm now forced to claim.
I'm Gloin and I'm the cop. I also have a passive ability that I'd really rather not claim if possible.
Say the Day moves to Night now, who are you thinking about to be your target for your investigation?
Also, you say you felt you were unlynchable - probably because you think a claim would cause you to not be lynched. So why are you saying now you screwed yourself this game because you're forced to claim? Isn't that what your hope was? To become unlynchable? Also, why was your first instinct 'Great, I'm unlynchable' and not 'Oh no I shouldn't be Nightkilled now'?
Lobbing softballs at Stardust and Caex. The Stardust questions are typical Mafia 101 type stuff and doesn't help at all in determining Stardust's intentions. Wessel's question to Caex seems to go too easy on him, as if essentially asking for a scum list changes anything about the game state. I'm happy for it not immediately unvoting, but it doesn't do enough to make me think highly of Wessel.
Unvote Caex for the moment, because I want to make sure I have time to go back and reread his posts before a lynch happens, but i would like to hear that passive ability. At work now, substainial post to follow.
Now Seppel. Not particularly pleased with this, but if the post is to be believed then unvoting the cop claim with nothing else to go on is reasonable enough.
Caex, I'm ready to vote for you anytime now, so a claim would be appreciated. If you claim vanilla, a list of reads with reasons would be helpful too. Thanks.
Three questions. Why were you willing to put Caex to L-1 without a claim from him? And secondly, why were you expecting a vanilla claim? And thirdly, why is a list of reads helpful only if he claims vanilla?
1) I wasn't. That's why I asked him to claim.
2) I wasn't expecting it, but vanilla is the probably the most common claim. This is only relevant with regards to the third point here.
3) The list of reads may be helpful regardless of his role, but I only wanted it immediately if I was going to go ahead and lynch him right away. If he claimed a PR (as he did) a discussion should happen before he posts his reads (no point outing who he's most likely to target, for example). If he'd claimed vanilla I would have voted for him immediately and wanted the list as something to look at going into Day 2. I may still ask for the list, but only once I'm ready to lynch.
As for the lynch, I'm feeling a little unsure about lynching an unCC'd PR Day 1, but Caex is pretty scummy... I don't think I've been in a game where scum claimed a PR yet, but I have been in a game where a town PR was lynched. Is this the best choice here? I'm really not sure. We'll see how Caex responds to the questions being asked of him. I also want to do a reread before I add my vote to really make sure we're not making a mistake here.
This is probably the best find of the re-read. Stardust doesn't ask Caex anything. He continues to push on me with soft questions despite a cop claim on the table, and then feels out public opinion on Caex to see which side is safest to fall off the fence. So much weak language, sowing doubt, but keeping one foot on the lynch side in case things go south for Caex, like a CC. But if he's truly conflicted, then he should be totally tearing up Caex with questions, not me.
@ Stardust: The reason to fear cop claims is (a) they're easy for the mafia to fake, (b) they have a chance of outing the real cop inadvertently, and (c) they scare the town because it could be they're true.
So you're telling me this because a cop claim is a common fake claim from scum, for those reasons? I suppose a doc claim shouldn't be trusted for the same reasons?
@Stardust: it matches the mindset of his other posts where I've expected he has little experience, but also doesn't sound like something scum would say. Now though, I have a hard time rectifying why the same player who said we'd regret pushing him also says that his plan was to play recklessly because he was going to claim anyway.
So... is Caex scum? Even now you're flip-flopping on your read of Caex, hedging your bets so you can say you thought he might be town the whole time, but holding up more recent actions to say he's scum. That's not gonna fly when you were third on his wagon.
You've just said that you thought Caex was town when he made that comment. If that's true, then why did you vote for him?
Protecting Caex by comparing a cop claim to a doc claim like they're remotely similar. Accuses me of being scum for behavior he himself is guilty of (waffling on Caex). Further implicates him as Caex's buddy.
Getting back to the matter at hand... Caex is claiming to be a Bull-Headed Cop who can't be roleblocked or protected. His plan was apparently to act scummy so he could claim and draw the roleblock...
I had a bunch of stream-of-consciousness stuff written up, but deleted it in favour of this question: Caex, if you wanted to draw the roleblock, why not just not-so-subtly put out hints that you were a PR?
Also, you seemed disappointed that you had to claim here:
I think I really screwed myself this game. When I saw my role PM I basically thought "Hey, I'm unlynchable!" I took it as an excuse to play faster and looser than I normally would. Which is probably why I'm now forced to claim.
I'm Gloin and I'm the cop. I also have a passive ability that I'd really rather not claim if possible.
My passive is called Bull-Headed. I can't be roleblocked, but I also can't be protected. I'll get around to answering all the stuff aimed at me later.
So what was your strategy in playing the way you have so far?
I was hoping to draw a roleblock instead of a NK. Half the people don't believe my claim, and if I came back D2 saying "Sorry, got roleblocked N1" there's a good chance I'd be lynched.
Che pushing that hard for me to claim my passive looks suspicious, especially with his "We're lynching Caex no matter what" mindset. If he really believes I'm scum that strongly, there's no reason to care about my passive because I'd be lying anyway. I can definitely see a reason for the scum to push me to full claim, though.
Not a big fan of the deflection there onto Che either... Why not mention Xyre in there also, who you apparently suspected earlier?
I really like this summary of the claim above with the capital letters.
He also steals the case against Caex from Wessel.
I voted originally because I was thinking he was scum and wanted to see more. I started prioritizing around with my reads and getting responses to solidify that (because I was also debating whether to start pushing for DRey or you). His statement had felt genuine to me and I was okay with trusting my gut on a town tell on an inexperienced player if I had better cases to go on. Those other cases are only compelling with an alignment flip though. I didn't need to unvote because the Caex case is still very good and a gut tell doesn't measure up to it. The claim is bad enough that I'm ready to end the day on Caex.
I haven't read the past ~17 posts good enough yet, but I'm just making a quick post before going to bed to say it makes no sense for scum to claim to be unprotectable. They want to draw the protect.
Or maybe Caex is lying about half his role and truthful about the other half. Hm. Got to sleep on it.
NO REACTION whatsoever to Caex ignoring his questions.
Who would you prefer to lynch at this point, Caex or DRey?
Caex responds to Wessel, NO FOLLOW UP or REACTION from Wessel. Instead feels out public opinion on Caex lynch in favor of moving off of it to town player.
I'm feeling a bit confused now. Caex's last couple of posts have felt more townie than anything prior, at least townie enough that I'm not comfortable lynching an unCC'd PR at this point, and Zionite's answers to my questions gave me the impression that I was fighting with a townie as well, despite apparent contradictions in wording. Maybe those contradictions were just errors in wording... but then why would he defend them so vehemently? Ugh.
Anyway, it's time to turn to DRey... My reread yesterday more or less solidified my read of scum for all three of these guys, so I'm basically okay with lynching either Zionite or DRey today. If I'm wrong on any of these three I think I'll need either a flip or something drastic before I can really reevaluate those reads properly at this point.
So DRey... There are lots of little things, but the big ones for me are 1) his jump on Xyre (which we've now learned was based on absolutely nothing since DRey wasn't even reading Xyre's posts), 2) his "spill the beans" post where he leaves out more than half the players and barns his entire case on Caex (including a slip where he says kpaca's got a point about Caex's sig, not avatar - clearly not his own thought and not even critically considered), and 3) his flip from not wanting the CC (maybe to score town points because he thought the Caex momentum would get him lynched anyway) to wanting the CC (now that the momentum has clearly died down). If Caex is scum, it makes much more sense for scumDRey to go for the claim only after he's made sure his attempt at bussing had truly failed. If Caex is town, scumDRey tried to get the cop lynched, but then decided to spearhead his proving Caex as town instead? Just speculation, but the point is that in either case it's very odd for a townie to have that same change of heart after the momentum shift. It should have been the opposite.
The only thing really muddying this for me is that Caex jumped on the wagon without it feeling like a bus to me. I still think Caex is likely scum, but the lack of content directly linked to his vote on DRey feels to me like either scum joining the wagon on a townie, or a townie joining a wagon with characteristic self-confidence. I need to sort that out since I have 195 and 196 marked as Caex defending DRey without just cause, but that vote now feels like they may not be scum buddies.
Anyway, this still feels right. Unvote Zionite, Vote DRey.
Read: "My scum buddies want me to vote for DRey now". Fence sits hard on Caex. So much scum in this post.
Well this game is certainly roaring... Anyway, I'm mostly just here to say that I'll be V/LA until next Wednesday. I hope to have lots to catch up on!
Also, after thinking about it for a bit, CropCircles' logic in 272 looks spot on for dealing with Caex. If he's town, the scum need to kill him. If he doesn't die after a day or two, we lynch him. At least then we've got the chance to get some cop targets, and like Caex himself suggested, he'll be more likely to incriminate his scum buddies anyway. Win win!
Read: "Oh hey, someone gave me an out. OF COURSE we should let Caex live! Silly me!" This contrasted with the earlier fence sitting is solid scum buddy play.
Day One will end no later than 11:59PM, Saturday, April 27th.
This is my current reads list on the vote count after the shift to DRey off of Caex. Notice how Stardust follows Caex despite Caex being "likely scum", but it's never addressed in Stardust's posts.
For the TL;DR crowd, compare this with this. The first post is Stardust on Caex's wagon and shows quite a bit of waffling. The second post is my scum game from Cyberspace where I waffle on scumbuddy RR after a claim. This is a very common scum mistake; feel out the popular opinion and go with it, but keep on the fence until then.
@WOLG: I want to know now. What is Iso's precise role in this game? (And with role, I don't mean his game role, I mean how exactly is he involved in this game.)
I'm not sold on WoLG being town. We know that false claims are probably, if not definitely, present. The general lack of info on WoLG except the name claim gives me pause, and the fact that we only got the name after we guessed "Gollum/Smeagol" makes me think he's a neutral with a false claim. This lines up with the scum motivation to be "scum-hunting" the neutral on Day 2 and explains the role better than the twins claim. There's also Caex's last words to consider, that despite being outed he still maintained that WoLG wasn't town.
Flavor gaming and fearmongering about neutrals doesn't do anyone any good. Also, someone guessed our role names in thread before anyone said anything about Gollum/Smeagol.
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"Thief Baggins! Curse it and crush it! We hates it forever!"
And it just makes sense. We're not lynching you so it's okay. But you're definitely gollum.
That's the intro post to the game, are you saying that you just read it?
Remember what happened the last time someone flavor gamed that post? It ended with the lynch of Gandalf, our tracker.
It's not okay, because I'm not Gollum. It doesn't matter if I'm not getting lynched today, it's setting me up for a lynch in the end game based on flavor gaming and incorrect logic.
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'Why would I kill Drey, I was trying to lynch him!'
Quote from Wessel »
Well it's true. Why would I try to do everything to get DRey lynched because I think he's scum, for me to then NK him N2? Why not target likely townies like zindabad, or WOLG? It's just bad play. So I think it's pretty obvious the scum NKd DRey with the aim of trying to set me up for a lynch. The same goes for Xyre yesterDay by the way. Those two NKs make me think the scum see me as an easy lynch and try to push for it by incriminating me with the NKs.
And yet Stardust isn't exactly pushing for your lynch. In fact, didn't Stardust try to pick apart Xyre's case on you on Day One, defending you?
If your logic is that people are trying to frame you for the kills and push for your lynch, then... who? WoLG, myself and Zionite are the only people that have cast a vote on you recently.
You're scum, and Stardust is probably scum with you, given this clumsy distancing attempt.
Realistically, there's 4 people that haven't claimed - You, Stardust, Seppel, Zindabad.
I have no interest in Zindabad claiming, due to the innocent cop check on him.
And fairly rudimentary PoE points to 2 scum in you/Stardust/Seppel. So you guys will claim soon enough when you're run up to be lynched.
If people have information that makes narrowing the gamestate down even further possible, then sure - but I don't like the mass claim push, especially given the people that are pushing for it. It reeks of scum desperation.
If WoLG, Zionite and Zindabad are all in agreement, then fine, I suppose. But when the people that are supporting it are the three plausible scum, then... no thanks?
WoLG is behaviorally town. Maybe he's a neutral, yeah, sure. But that's largely baseless modgaming, and still means he's not mafia.
I looked back at Zionite's D1 play and consider him extremely unlikely to be scum with Caex. That supports his claim.
Which makes Zindabad town.
DYH's behavior has been abysmal since replacing in, given the knowledge that I'm town. But his softclaim is in his favor, and Kpaca's interactions with Caex read genuine. He's unlikely mafia.
That leaves three people: Wessel, Stardust and Seppel.
There's two scum in that bunch. I think it's the first two, but Seppel is plausible - CC's early game pushes him third in the list behind the other two.
Just for the entertainment value, look at the most recent VC:
They're pinned and panicking, with the only options being desperation moves (mass claim and praying a lot), and distancing (see recent Wessel/Stardust).
I mean, it's kind of a crappy situation for them to be in, but that's how I see the game at the moment.
I had completely forgotten about the conversations between Caex/Wessel/Stardust that went nowhere. After seeing Zionite's post, I'm in agreement that the game is just down to PoE, since there's only a few possibilities:
Hypothesis 1) Wessel and Stardust (with a potential Voxx (the potentiality rises significantly if he's the only vanilla (coughCyberspaceZindabadcough)) and less likely potential DYH) are mafia and we just need to go ahead and lynch them.
Hypothesis 2) Zionite is lying. Unlikely, given a review of D1. I doubt Zionite can plan that far in advance . The only way Zindabad can be mafia is if Zionite is mafia with him (or he's a GF in a game with a 1-shot cop lol), so he's off the table.
Hypothesis X) WoLG is Gollum as previously expected. Caex was neutral hunting because his team is underpowered(?), his role PM doesn't even say he can perform the mafia kill. No need to worry about this until there are no more kills or the game suddenly ends.
-----------------
With that being said, I'm just going to go ahead and claim.
This was going to be a review by player starting with Stardust but Xyre just went and derailed my sled into a straight up PBPA.
I'm Radagast the Brown, *****es, here to save the company. I'm a JoAT with the following abilities:
* 1-shot untargetable (Passive)
* 1-shot redirect target player to myself
* 1-shot doc
* 1-shot give target player an extra vote the next day
N1: Redirected DRey to myself. (Reasoning: With Xyre/Caex/Cyouni all likely town after D1, I convinced myself that DRey was a toughguy and that I needed to stop his shot somehow. When he came in D2 asking me what happened to his shot, I knew that he knew perfectly well what happened to it, so I ignored the fishing attempt.)
N2: Docced Zionite (Reasoning: Either he's town and likely dead, or he's scum and it didn't matter.)
Me and Iso would both love that extra vote. But, I understand if you'd rather give it to Zinda or Zion. Or if you can give it to yourself, that'd work out even better.
I support a mass claim, but I'm already claimed, so that doesn't matter.
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Me and Iso would both love that extra vote. But, I understand if you'd rather give it to Zinda or Zion. Or if you can give it to yourself, that'd work out even better.
I support a mass claim, but I'm already claimed, so that doesn't matter.
Now, I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but WoLG has a fascination with extra votes:
Null: Cyouni (Behavior says scum, claim gives me pause; plus, I want that additional vote. Also, D_V's behavior wasn't exactly inspiring. But we have the di[tri?]chotomy between Cyouni, Caex, and Xyre, and it just looks icky all around. I'm sure the Night actions will say a lot.)
Scum: Xyre (He digs his hole deeper and deeper with every post, plus I outlined my case on him from early in the game.)"
(Above: Included the comparison of Xyre to Cyouni.)
Remember what happened the last time someone flavor gamed that post? It ended with the lynch of Gandalf, our tracker.
It's not okay, because I'm not Gollum.
...
I started to realize that this wasn't just an obsession with the extra vote, but also Cyouni.
Gandalf the Grey, Ring-bearer Tracker. Tracker with a passive Inspiration, where I may give my target an extra vote the next day. Flavour's that I've struggled to keep the company together after their separation, and due to the increased general suspicion, it may be time to show them what I can really do.
Notice something?
Gandalf the Grey, Ring-bearer Tracker.
The only thing different from a regular tracker is the ability to grant an extra vote. Perhaps this precious vote is Gollum's precious ring? To test that, I added the "extra vote" to my JoAT listing (I don't have the ability to grant an extra vote).
@Zionite: Regarding Voxx, it's still the same as it's been all along. Che was beyond useless, and Voxx came in and immediately slung mud at Seppel for doing Seppel things, then tried to direct power roles away from himself, and even now continues to defend via ad hom. His claim is awful. The only point in his favor at this point is that Che wanted to lynch Caex. That's a big point, admittedly, and one that I'm torn about.
As for Seppel, I was wary of him giving me an auto-town pass based on a claim I hadn't even confirmed was true. His response to my vote and subsequent claim/trap have assuaged those concerns. I like the play there.
Unvote
As for my claim, I'm Gwaihir the Windlord, Town Governor. I have a one-shot pardon that must take place in Twilight. That person is unable to be lynched for the day, votes reset, can't self-target.
I don't like Wessel's snarky response to my questioning Stardust. I'm curious to see what this ground-breaking relevation he's made about a mass-claim is.
I'll claim in a bit. There's a reason for the delay.
To everyone, I always believed that Caex was scum. Even after his claim I thought it was much more likely than not. But there was no downside to letting him live to Day 2. Things got a bit messier when Xyre claimed Watcher while at the same time putting up a bunch of red flags, but I still figured it would be much easier to let the mafia solve the dichotomy for us, which they did. I fail to see how we lost anything by delaying to Day 2. I also fail to see how arguing to keep Caex alive for one more Day is a scummy thing to do. How did him living for one night benefit the mafia, exactly?
Cyouni's claim complicated things. He should never have been the lynch, something I'll talk more about later. Given that we were running out of options as the deadline approached, lynching Xyre or Caex would have been a better play. If Zionite really is a Cop, he should have counterclaimed at that point instead of jumping on Cyouni. He could have saved the Tracker.
Basically, everything that is being called waffling was me saying Caex was scum on one hand and saying we shouldn't lynch him Day 1 on the other. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
Isn't this what you jumped on DRey for at the beginning of Day 2?
Your point being...?
Also, not insignificantly, there's a difference between the two.
My point being that you were pushing weak (and apparently hypocritical) reasons against a townie. I'm not going to call you on the same thing, but I wanted to highlight this interaction with Seppel. I need to figure stuff out yet, but I've been tossing around the idea of a Wessel/Seppel scum team if Zionite ends up being town.
So can you tell me what changed between the two instances?
But you think I'm likely scum despite DRey being the NK?
That's a terrible defense.
Well it's true. Why would I try to do everything to get DRey lynched because I think he's scum, for me to then NK him N2? Why not target likely townies like zindabad, or WOLG? It's just bad play. So I think it's pretty obvious the scum NKd DRey with the aim of trying to set me up for a lynch. The same goes for Xyre yesterDay by the way. Those two NKs make me think the scum see me as an easy lynch and try to push for it by incriminating me with the NKs.
There are plenty of possible reasons, but this argument is 100% WIFOM. That's why it's terrible.
Given that Caex claimed to be unroleblockable, it would make sense for a town jailer to target him. If he's mafia and lying, then you roleblock mafia. If he's town it doesn't matter because he's unroleblockable. Basically, I don't believe what you just said is true.
Can you tell me in your own words what a jailer does?
Just a note, I'm going to stop responding to you if you continue asking useless questions.
A jailer protects the target from nightkills and prevents them from using abilities.
Me stating why a jailer might have wanted to target Caex is what started you questioning this in the first place. Are these questions going anywhere, because we're literally going in circles.
@Wessel: Any lynch was better than no lynch with a looming deadline. No one can doubt that I tried my best to get Caex lynched, but it wasn't happening.
I'll claim in a bit. There's a reason for the delay.
To everyone, I always believed that Caex was scum. Even after his claim I thought it was much more likely than not. But there was no downside to letting him live to Day 2. Things got a bit messier when Xyre claimed Watcher while at the same time putting up a bunch of red flags, but I still figured it would be much easier to let the mafia solve the dichotomy for us, which they did. I fail to see how we lost anything by delaying to Day 2. I also fail to see how arguing to keep Caex alive for one more Day is a scummy thing to do. How did him living for one night benefit the mafia, exactly?
Cyouni's claim complicated things. He should never have been the lynch, something I'll talk more about later. Given that we were running out of options as the deadline approached, lynching Xyre or Caex would have been a better play. If Zionite really is a Cop, he should have counterclaimed at that point instead of jumping on Cyouni. He could have saved the Tracker.
Basically, everything that is being called waffling was me saying Caex was scum on one hand and saying we shouldn't lynch him Day 1 on the other. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
I really don't like how this is addressed to everyone and not to me. It's so defensive it's ridiculous.
You may have believed he was scum, but that doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't take a side until it was convenient for you. You never suggested we leave him alive; you piggybacked on someone else suggesting it. So don't even try to say that your waffling had anything to do with not lynching him immediately, because you undeniably fence-sat in the quoted posts. There's no reason for town to do that and several reasons for scum to do it.
You didn't argue for leaving Caex alive, someone else did and ONLY THEN did you support it. If you had suggested it yourself then you'd be instantly lynched right now, which is why you waffled for a few posts before deciding Caex was worth leaving alone.
Both you and Wessel are frustrating the hell out of me with this "if Zionite really is the cop" business. When Caex claimed cop, you were both worshipping the ground he walked on saying how bad we'd be if we lynched him. But now suddenly I COUNTERCLAIM SCUM, and I'm the liar. It makes no sense whatsoever why I would be Caex's buddy and to operate on such an assumption is damn near proof of your guilt. Now you're using it to waffle on all your reads, saying that if I'm scum, this is your read and if I'm town, you don't know what the hell is going on. I'm not buying this narrative.
Zionite, I'm tired of arguing with you. You so firmly believe I'm scum that every time I say anything to you at this point, you either ignore it completely or twist my words and spit them back. Not interested. I'll engage you once I have a bit more spare time to do that reread and try to decide one way or the other on you. You're right that your claim is tight, but your play is anything but.
Anyway, zindabad, Seppel and probably Voxx think I'm scum for the same reasons. That's the "everyone" I was addressing.
No, you'll engage me now. Like it or not, you're in the spotlight. And we're waiting to hear an explanation from you as to why you waffled so hard on Caex, and then jumped at the opportunity to leave him alive. You were never even voting for him, yet called him scummy. But if he was scummy and voting me, why did you never even consider it when attacking me? Why did you attack me for waffling when you did the same thing yourself?
These are questions that need to be answered. If you want to retreat and not answer them, fine. But that will result in your immediate lynch.
I now do suspect that WoLG is a neutral, but I also think that we shouldn't be wasting time on voting him at present. The whole thing feels like a smokescreen spat out by Seppel in order to obscure the wagon on his floundering scumbuddy (Stardust.) Scum would love us to lynch WoLG now - pressure's off for a while, free night when most of our power roles are dead or have used up their one-shots - it just seems like a bad idea.
I would zindabad, but the truth is that I have the ring and I'm dead tomorrow if we don't lynch the neutral that needs it. I was trying to avoid claiming it but with the massclaims happening it was only a matter of PoE for Iso to figure it out. So we should lynch WoLG today, Stardust tomorrow.
Lynch Stardust, WoLG kills Zionite, gains One-Ring (and who knows what that will do), scum NK zindabad. This leaves the town with very little in terms of confirmation for finding the last scum and produces a significant unknown in WoLG.
Lynch WoLG, scum NK one of zindabad or Zionite, we have at least one confirmed town still and Stardust already on the table.
I assure you that WoLG is not a threat to the town at present.
Can you identify the meaning of the phrase "ring-bearer", Zionite? Does it mean you actually have the ring and that it has some abilities, or is it just something in your rolename? Because Cyouni was a "ring-bearer" also and I see no ring-related stuff in his role PM.
Cyouni was Ring-bearer tracker. I am the actual ring-bearer. It's an item that gets passed on when I'm killed. It's a useless and anti-town ability. No reason to say what it does.
It gets passed on to my killer or the hammer vote on lynch. I don't have any followup ability on the one-shot cop. The flavor points to the blade Sting giving me the cop ability, but it's not a passive ability like the Ring and it's still just one shot.
God damnit. That's why I was waiting, Zionite. I wanted to hear WoLG's explanation. Because I'm a ring-bearer too.
Elrond Half-elven, Town Ring-bearer Unkillable. I can't be killed at night, though I won't say how many shots. I'm almost sure that DRey shot me last night.
That's what I was on about with Cyouni. I knew he was the wrong lynch because he was a ring-bearer, and I figured a neutral was likely - had to get us killed or something. I didn't clue in that WoLG could have been given a fake claim until after Caex called him neutral. So he did do some good for the town after all!
Whatever, it would have been good to get the explanation first, but you being Bilbo pretty much confirms that something is up with the ring-bearer title. Vote: WoLG.
God damnit. That's why I was waiting, Zionite. I wanted to hear WoLG's explanation. Because I'm a ring-bearer too.
Elrond Half-elven, Town Ring-bearer Unkillable. I can't be killed at night, though I won't say how many shots. I'm almost sure that DRey shot me last night.
That's what I was on about with Cyouni. I knew he was the wrong lynch because he was a ring-bearer, and I figured a neutral was likely - had to get us killed or something. I didn't clue in that WoLG could have been given a fake claim until after Caex called him neutral. So he did do some good for the town after all!
Whatever, it would have been good to get the explanation first, but you being Bilbo pretty much confirms that something is up with the ring-bearer title. Vote: WoLG.
Do you reckon? What gives you the impression that DRey tried to shoot you last night?
Perhaps Ring-Bearers get some special ability when holding the ring. But you're still scum with a false claim so I'm not really interested in you having it.
@Zindabad: I don't want to be in danger of PM quoting, so I'll confirm with AI before I state my title.
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:-/:-/:-/
Why? How is waiting going to change anything when we're talking about interactions with someone who's already dead?
I'll tell you later, bro.
Anyway, in that post I talked about Seppel's use of modgaming to imply that DYH is town, which is bogus in this day and age, his subtle attempt to incriminate me by stating that he asked me a question "two game days ago", thus implying that I have been dodging that question, when in reality it was at the end of D1 and was 7 RL days ago, 6 of which have been night phase, reminded him that he has failed to answer the question I asked him here:
about Voxxicus's "point" (or lack thereof) about Cyouni, and discussed Stardust's behavior (that question was 2 game days, or 10 RL days, ago, if we're being pedantic.)
I also discussed Stardust, which I will recompile in abridged form here.
98: He fence-sits on Caex's alignment after a dreadful OMGUS vote by Caex.
130: Not interested in going after (scum) Caex, because (town) Zionite is where we should be focused at present.
230: Quoting it in its entirety:
Check out the excuse-me language he uses there as regards Caex's lynch. I pulled him up on it earlier in my notes, but re-reading after Caex's scum flip, it makes grim viewing. A combination of noob card, repetition of "PR", and fence-sitting does not bode well for Star's relationship with Caex.
248/250: Subtle difference in language as relates to town Zionite and scum Caex. When scum Caex is caught in an inconsistency, Star asks him questions about it, possibly although not necessarily trying to offer him a chance to talk his way out of it. When town Zionite is caught in an inconsistency, he's "changing his story."
273: Again with the "un-CC'ed PR" stuff, he hops off scum Caex and town Zionite in favor of town DRey. Worth noting he never actually voted Caex.
395: In his scumlist, Caex is likely scum but he doesn't want to go there today, whereas Zionite is scum and WoLG is of dubious alignment.
416: Non-committal defense of Caex. CC has "decent reasons" for voting Caex, but the case isn't "open and shut."
425: Part of why Che is scum is because he pushed at Caex after the claim. So in just 9 posts, we've gone from Caex being a scum possibility to Caex's town status being so unimpeachable that attacking him makes you scummier.
909/910: Possible fish for information about the jailer? Also, look at how Stardust has been so willing to give Caex second chances. I thought this guy was scum throughout all of D1, and Star opens D2 by calling him scum before he's said anything. Why even entertain the neutral possibility?
There's more. All of D1 is riddled with Star going "ohh, Caex's behavior is bad, but he's the cop, so we should leave him alone, but make sure you remember that I never said he was town."
I'm comfortable with starting the day with a vote: Stardust.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
DYH is the distant 4th possibility, but despite my extreme dislike for his play this game, Kpaca's early interactions read as more genuine, and isn't terribly likely to have been scum with Caex.
I believe Zionite, and therefore consider Zindabad town.
WoLG is town.
Vote: Wessel
Ok, be skeptical. But me revealing more than "one shot cop, zindabad town" is detrimental to town play. If a situation comes up where the rest of my role is relevant, I'll let you know. I just don't see how you can still need information from me based on the last two Days. To think I'm scum is to think I've been an amazing actor for months and that the town doesn't have a cop, a conclusion which is so elastic that it would make stretch armstrong jealous.
Also, I'm sorry I stepped on your toes trying to out the jailer, but I was 1) anxious to CC Obvscum, and 2) Ready to clear zindabad as he was high on my suspects list. But I get that screwing up that gambit wasn't the optimal play, so I apologize.
I'm in agreement with you, sans Seppel and WoLG.
Seppel has been tremendously pro-active this game and I don't think he would have considered a Day 2 plan to out the jailer without being town or especially brilliant. It's possible, but not likely.
I'm not sold on WoLG being town. We know that false claims are probably, if not definitely, present. The general lack of info on WoLG except the name claim gives me pause, and the fact that we only got the name after we guessed "Gollum/Smeagol" makes me think he's a neutral with a false claim. This lines up with the scum motivation to be "scum-hunting" the neutral on Day 2 and explains the role better than the twins claim. There's also Caex's last words to consider, that despite being outed he still maintained that WoLG wasn't town. That said, I'm not particularly interested in lynching him. We have NKs to worry about.
When I get some time I'll do a wagon analysis from the Day 1 Caex string up with a focus on Wessel and Stardust, as I think it was particularly telling at the time. But for now I'm happy to move to Stardust.
Unvote, vote Stardust
Wessel (2): WellOfLostGnomes, Voxxicus
Stardust (2): zindabad, Zionite
Seppel (1): DYH
Not Voting (3): Seppel, Stardust, Wessel
With 8 alive, it's 5 votes to lynch.
Day Three will end no later than 11:59PM EST, Sunday, June 2nd.
Context: Immediately after Caex claims cop. Neither Wessel nor Stardust are on the Caex wagon for claim, but Seppel's role, DYH's role, Xyre and myself are. Voxxicus (Che) makes the 5th.
Lobbing softballs at Stardust and Caex. The Stardust questions are typical Mafia 101 type stuff and doesn't help at all in determining Stardust's intentions. Wessel's question to Caex seems to go too easy on him, as if essentially asking for a scum list changes anything about the game state. I'm happy for it not immediately unvoting, but it doesn't do enough to make me think highly of Wessel.
Now Seppel. Not particularly pleased with this, but if the post is to be believed then unvoting the cop claim with nothing else to go on is reasonable enough.
This is probably the best find of the re-read. Stardust doesn't ask Caex anything. He continues to push on me with soft questions despite a cop claim on the table, and then feels out public opinion on Caex to see which side is safest to fall off the fence. So much weak language, sowing doubt, but keeping one foot on the lynch side in case things go south for Caex, like a CC. But if he's truly conflicted, then he should be totally tearing up Caex with questions, not me.
+Town points for DYH.
Protecting Caex by comparing a cop claim to a doc claim like they're remotely similar. Accuses me of being scum for behavior he himself is guilty of (waffling on Caex). Further implicates him as Caex's buddy.
Still pushing this weak argument against me. I also don't see how townStardust could see maybeScumCaex list me as his top suspect and not even flinch.
I really like this summary of the claim above with the capital letters.
He also steals the case against Caex from Wessel.
Defending Caex.
NO REACTION whatsoever to Caex ignoring his questions.
Caex responds to Wessel, NO FOLLOW UP or REACTION from Wessel. Instead feels out public opinion on Caex lynch in favor of moving off of it to town player.
+Town to Voxxicus.
Read: "My scum buddies want me to vote for DRey now". Fence sits hard on Caex. So much scum in this post.
Read: "Oh hey, someone gave me an out. OF COURSE we should let Caex live! Silly me!" This contrasted with the earlier fence sitting is solid scum buddy play.
Totally disengaged from Caex by this point. Feeling out new wagons.
This is my current reads list on the vote count after the shift to DRey off of Caex. Notice how Stardust follows Caex despite Caex being "likely scum", but it's never addressed in Stardust's posts.
I'm a little more sure that Wessel is scum than Stardust, but I don't really care which of the two we lynch, realistically.
Don't like Seppel or DYH for their own play, but their predecessors' behavior with Caex makes them slightly less likely scum.
@Zionite: What changed between
Flavor gaming and fearmongering about neutrals doesn't do anyone any good. Also, someone guessed our role names in thread before anyone said anything about Gollum/Smeagol.
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And it just makes sense. We're not lynching you so it's okay. But you're definitely gollum.
That's the intro post to the game, are you saying that you just read it?
Remember what happened the last time someone flavor gamed that post? It ended with the lynch of Gandalf, our tracker.
It's not okay, because I'm not Gollum. It doesn't matter if I'm not getting lynched today, it's setting me up for a lynch in the end game based on flavor gaming and incorrect logic.
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'Why would I kill Drey, I was trying to lynch him!'
And yet Stardust isn't exactly pushing for your lynch. In fact, didn't Stardust try to pick apart Xyre's case on you on Day One, defending you?
If your logic is that people are trying to frame you for the kills and push for your lynch, then... who? WoLG, myself and Zionite are the only people that have cast a vote on you recently.
You're scum, and Stardust is probably scum with you, given this clumsy distancing attempt.
I have no interest in Zindabad claiming, due to the innocent cop check on him.
And fairly rudimentary PoE points to 2 scum in you/Stardust/Seppel. So you guys will claim soon enough when you're run up to be lynched.
If people have information that makes narrowing the gamestate down even further possible, then sure - but I don't like the mass claim push, especially given the people that are pushing for it. It reeks of scum desperation.
If WoLG, Zionite and Zindabad are all in agreement, then fine, I suppose. But when the people that are supporting it are the three plausible scum, then... no thanks?
Living Playerlist:
Voxxicus - Vanilla Town.
Zionite - Cop
Zindabad - Cleared by Cop
WoLG - Weird PseudoMason thing.
DYH - Governer? Needs proven.
Seppel - Unclaimed.
Stardust - Unclaimed.
Wessel - Unclaimed.
WoLG is behaviorally town. Maybe he's a neutral, yeah, sure. But that's largely baseless modgaming, and still means he's not mafia.
I looked back at Zionite's D1 play and consider him extremely unlikely to be scum with Caex. That supports his claim.
Which makes Zindabad town.
DYH's behavior has been abysmal since replacing in, given the knowledge that I'm town. But his softclaim is in his favor, and Kpaca's interactions with Caex read genuine. He's unlikely mafia.
That leaves three people: Wessel, Stardust and Seppel.
There's two scum in that bunch. I think it's the first two, but Seppel is plausible - CC's early game pushes him third in the list behind the other two.
Just for the entertainment value, look at the most recent VC:
Vote Count 15
Wessel (2): WellOfLostGnomes, Voxxicus
Stardust (2): zindabad, Zionite
Seppel (1): DYH
Not Voting (3): Seppel, Stardust, Wessel
They're pinned and panicking, with the only options being desperation moves (mass claim and praying a lot), and distancing (see recent Wessel/Stardust).
I mean, it's kind of a crappy situation for them to be in, but that's how I see the game at the moment.
Hypothesis 1) Wessel and Stardust (with a potential Voxx (the potentiality rises significantly if he's the only vanilla (coughCyberspaceZindabadcough)) and less likely potential DYH) are mafia and we just need to go ahead and lynch them.
Hypothesis 2) Zionite is lying. Unlikely, given a review of D1. I doubt Zionite can plan that far in advance . The only way Zindabad can be mafia is if Zionite is mafia with him (or he's a GF in a game with a 1-shot cop lol), so he's off the table.
Hypothesis X) WoLG is Gollum as previously expected. Caex was neutral hunting because his team is underpowered(?), his role PM doesn't even say he can perform the mafia kill. No need to worry about this until there are no more kills or the game suddenly ends.
-----------------
With that being said, I'm just going to go ahead and claim.
From my first post:
I'm Radagast the Brown, *****es, here to save the company. I'm a JoAT with the following abilities:
* 1-shot untargetable (Passive)
* 1-shot redirect target player to myself
* 1-shot doc
* 1-shot give target player an extra vote the next day
N1: Redirected DRey to myself. (Reasoning: With Xyre/Caex/Cyouni all likely town after D1, I convinced myself that DRey was a toughguy and that I needed to stop his shot somehow. When he came in D2 asking me what happened to his shot, I knew that he knew perfectly well what happened to it, so I ignored the fishing attempt.)
N2: Docced Zionite (Reasoning: Either he's town and likely dead, or he's scum and it didn't matter.)
So, yeah. We don't have a jailer.
I support a mass claim, but I'm already claimed, so that doesn't matter.
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Now, I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but WoLG has a fascination with extra votes:
(Above: Included the comparison of Xyre to Cyouni.)
...
I started to realize that this wasn't just an obsession with the extra vote, but also Cyouni.
So I checked the source:
Notice something?
Gandalf the Grey, Ring-bearer Tracker.
The only thing different from a regular tracker is the ability to grant an extra vote. Perhaps this precious vote is Gollum's precious ring? To test that, I added the "extra vote" to my JoAT listing (I don't have the ability to grant an extra vote).
And who else but WoLG / Iso pounced on it:
Nailed it.
WoLG/Iso are irrefutably Gollum/Smeagol, supplied with a falseclaim of fili and Kili.
My 1-shot untargetable absorbed the shot.
As for Seppel, I was wary of him giving me an auto-town pass based on a claim I hadn't even confirmed was true. His response to my vote and subsequent claim/trap have assuaged those concerns. I like the play there.
Unvote
As for my claim, I'm Gwaihir the Windlord, Town Governor. I have a one-shot pardon that must take place in Twilight. That person is unable to be lynched for the day, votes reset, can't self-target.
I don't like Wessel's snarky response to my questioning Stardust. I'm curious to see what this ground-breaking relevation he's made about a mass-claim is.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
To everyone, I always believed that Caex was scum. Even after his claim I thought it was much more likely than not. But there was no downside to letting him live to Day 2. Things got a bit messier when Xyre claimed Watcher while at the same time putting up a bunch of red flags, but I still figured it would be much easier to let the mafia solve the dichotomy for us, which they did. I fail to see how we lost anything by delaying to Day 2. I also fail to see how arguing to keep Caex alive for one more Day is a scummy thing to do. How did him living for one night benefit the mafia, exactly?
Cyouni's claim complicated things. He should never have been the lynch, something I'll talk more about later. Given that we were running out of options as the deadline approached, lynching Xyre or Caex would have been a better play. If Zionite really is a Cop, he should have counterclaimed at that point instead of jumping on Cyouni. He could have saved the Tracker.
Basically, everything that is being called waffling was me saying Caex was scum on one hand and saying we shouldn't lynch him Day 1 on the other. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
Scum.
I don't understand what you're asking me here.
There are plenty of possible reasons, but this argument is 100% WIFOM. That's why it's terrible.
Red flags. You're under pressure and jumping around like crazy.
Just a note, I'm going to stop responding to you if you continue asking useless questions.
A jailer protects the target from nightkills and prevents them from using abilities.
Me stating why a jailer might have wanted to target Caex is what started you questioning this in the first place. Are these questions going anywhere, because we're literally going in circles.
The rest of your post doesn't even say anything.
I really don't like how this is addressed to everyone and not to me. It's so defensive it's ridiculous.
You may have believed he was scum, but that doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't take a side until it was convenient for you. You never suggested we leave him alive; you piggybacked on someone else suggesting it. So don't even try to say that your waffling had anything to do with not lynching him immediately, because you undeniably fence-sat in the quoted posts. There's no reason for town to do that and several reasons for scum to do it.
You didn't argue for leaving Caex alive, someone else did and ONLY THEN did you support it. If you had suggested it yourself then you'd be instantly lynched right now, which is why you waffled for a few posts before deciding Caex was worth leaving alone.
Both you and Wessel are frustrating the hell out of me with this "if Zionite really is the cop" business. When Caex claimed cop, you were both worshipping the ground he walked on saying how bad we'd be if we lynched him. But now suddenly I COUNTERCLAIM SCUM, and I'm the liar. It makes no sense whatsoever why I would be Caex's buddy and to operate on such an assumption is damn near proof of your guilt. Now you're using it to waffle on all your reads, saying that if I'm scum, this is your read and if I'm town, you don't know what the hell is going on. I'm not buying this narrative.
BTW, trading your town cop for a tracker blows.
Anyway, zindabad, Seppel and probably Voxx think I'm scum for the same reasons. That's the "everyone" I was addressing.
These are questions that need to be answered. If you want to retreat and not answer them, fine. But that will result in your immediate lynch.
@Zionite: Suppose the mafia are told in advance that there's no cop in the game. That's what it felt like when you CC'd.
@Stardust: What's up with the delay in claiming? What are you specifically waiting for?
unvote, vote WoLG
Vote WoLG; keep Zionite alive.
Let's proceed with the lynch on Stardust.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Lynch WoLG, scum NK one of zindabad or Zionite, we have at least one confirmed town still and Stardust already on the table.
Can you identify the meaning of the phrase "ring-bearer", Zionite? Does it mean you actually have the ring and that it has some abilities, or is it just something in your rolename? Because Cyouni was a "ring-bearer" also and I see no ring-related stuff in his role PM.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Elrond Half-elven, Town Ring-bearer Unkillable. I can't be killed at night, though I won't say how many shots. I'm almost sure that DRey shot me last night.
That's what I was on about with Cyouni. I knew he was the wrong lynch because he was a ring-bearer, and I figured a neutral was likely - had to get us killed or something. I didn't clue in that WoLG could have been given a fake claim until after Caex called him neutral. So he did do some good for the town after all!
Whatever, it would have been good to get the explanation first, but you being Bilbo pretty much confirms that something is up with the ring-bearer title. Vote: WoLG.
Do you reckon? What gives you the impression that DRey tried to shoot you last night?
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
@Zindabad: I don't want to be in danger of PM quoting, so I'll confirm with AI before I state my title.