I'd have to agree that people generally don't enjoy board wipes, unless there's a bigger threat at the table. (Well, there was the one time I had an Ink-Treader Nephilim on the board and a Debt of Loyalty in hand, and someone played a Day of Judgement, proving the only thing people like less than a board wipe is a board wipe that ends up stealing all their stuff.)
From what I've experienced with who I play with, they aren't overly fond of infinite combos. General silliness is always fun... although if said general silliness is say a Kor Spiritdancer with a Battle Mastery and 1+ Celestial Armors (other auras like Spirit Mantle are implied), the fun quickly zips out the room. They also seem oddly terrified on infect. I don't think I could ever do something as evil as Ink-Treader Nephilim, Ichor Rats, and Volt Charge/Grim Affliction (that and it'd be a mighty pain to set up).
Long story short: Having cards taking control of, infinite combos/back-breaking combos are not much loved by those not doing them. I also find it hard to enjoy a game if no one else is.
In other words, you've never been in a situation that required The Second Place Solution. I understand your position better now. Not every group is so fortunate.
In other words, you've never built a deck that can handle a glass cannon. We understand your position better now.
It's not about the group being fortunate, it's about a group running some goddamn answers. Combo thrives where answers are taboo. If all you guys run are Acidic Slime and not Nature's Claim, Life's Finale instead of some Doom Blade variants, Spelljack instead of Counterspell, that's the reason you need your second place solution. None of you are building decks that are any good.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
The thing I hate most in multiplayer games is politics. This might be one of the core ideals behind multiplayer games, but I just cannot stand certain people who thinks politics just benefits themselves. Its really difficult to explain so i will give you an example.
My playgroup and some other new guys decide to play teams of pairs in an 8 player game. After a first few turns, another pair attacks with a couple of creatures dealing about 3-4 damage each to me and my ally. Next turn, I swing with just my Vampire Nighthawk at them to get some life back and they get really pissed off. I asked them why they decided to attack out of the blue, and they claim that they just "poked" us thinking we would just take it. They claimed to be victims and for the rest of the game we were locked into a battle amongst the 4 of us. After that game, I no longer play games with 5 or more people.
Also there's the old adage that there are no wrong threats but plenty of wrong answers. None of the answers you described answer the OP's turn one table wiper. A $400 playset of Force of Will would help, but this is supposed to be *casual*.
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
Every time I ask "And why couldn't you guys deal with that threat?" and the reply is "Dude, it's casual," I die a little inside.
Casual is not a reason not to run graveyard hate or hand disruption or enchantment hate. There is no magic christmas land where some deck wins turn one all the time and the only thing that stops him is FoW. Stop using this ridiculous scenario as your argument.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
-People who try to trade/take phone calls/do other things that cause them to not pay attention in the middle of the game
-Getting dogpiled on because people assume you're the best player, you're playing a deck/tribe/theme someone has heard horror stories about, the other players are close friends, you won the last game, etc, etc
-Players who sit there and shout "I'M NOT BOTHERING ANYONE WHY ARE YOU TARGETING ME??" when you do anything to them while they're sitting there building up an instant-win combo.
-Vengeful players. Aka "how DARE you kill my dude who is attacking you or going to win me the game in some way. Now I'm going to hold a grudge and throw every piece of removal in my deck and every attack phase at YOU until YOU ARE DEAD THAT'S WHAT YOU GET"
-When the other players have very skewed priorities about what is/isn't a threat or just don't care. Aka:
Player B: Uh oh! Player A just cast a huge dude! Better kill him fast!
Player A: Uh..you all do realize that Player C has a Helix Pinnacle out with enough mana to put 100 counters on it next turn and all I have is this vanilla 6/6 guy, right?
Player B and D: Psh! What is this Helix Pinnacle? Who cares about a Helix Pinnacle? You've got a freakin' 6/6 guy out! Kill him! *Players B and D proceed to throw everything they have at Player A, putting him out of the game, and then both lose next turn to Player C's Helix Pinnacle*
Every time I ask "And why couldn't you guys deal with that threat?" and the reply is "Dude, it's casual," I die a little inside.
Casual is not a reason not to run graveyard hate or hand disruption or enchantment hate. There is no magic christmas land where some deck wins turn one all the time and the only thing that stops him is FoW. Stop using this ridiculous scenario as your argument.
Couldn't agree with you more. I do hear the "casual" excuse frequently be used alongside of the "wallet warrior" one.
"I would have won if you wouldn't have played X card that costs Y many dollars."
"Card X should be banned because I can't afford it."
"Player A: Wow, really? You side in Rest in Peace against my Dredge deck? You do know we're playing casual right?
Player B: Hey, you chose to run Dredge, not me."
I have heard these excuses and some of them I am not exaggerating. My playgroup does have a personal ban list for casual/EDH games like no Armageddon or legendary Eldrazi that everyone agrees on.
My biggest pet peeve has to be long turns. Ill clarify some more, long turns that do little to advance board state. I personally dont care if your taking long turns because you have a certain sequence of activated abilities or ETB's to resolve. But when you sit with your god damn hand in front of your face and the other hand propping your head up under your chin for 5 minutes.
For EDH, i think power levels is determined by the playgroup. Im sure i speak for alot of players when i say its a slippery slope towards competitive decks. We all want to play our decks to their best abilities but keep in mind the social contract of EDH. If your playing to win every single game by any means possible, you're playing the wrong format.
Players drawing their opening hand and then looking at the top 1-3 cards of the deck to make sure they're fine (or looking at their top card(s) during the game).
I hate getting ganged up on in EDH simply because my General is R/U...
Yeah, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind is my EDH general, SO WHAT?! I'm running 4 cards that he can insta-combo with, big whoop... I actually have to DRAW those cards to do it, and enough mana to cast him, and the cards, in the same turn with FoW backup....
And they think I'M the threat? they go after me and ignore the guy building an army of Avenger of Zendikar tokens, then when he Rite of Replicates it, then starts a summer bloom/explore-athon, and drops fervor... I'm just like "Told ya so!"...
Jesus!
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Long turns is a good one. One of my pet peeves is that I have many decks that are more suited for one-on-one so they don't really work in multi-player (i.e. decks with counterspells and such). Also, I can't play Soul Sisters because that pisses everyone off instantly.
I hate getting ganged up on in EDH simply because my General is R/U...
Yeah, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind is my EDH general, SO WHAT?! I'm running 4 cards that he can insta-combo with, big whoop... I actually have to DRAW those cards to do it, and enough mana to cast him, and the cards, in the same turn with FoW backup....
And they think I'M the threat? they go after me and ignore the guy building an army of Avenger of Zendikar tokens, then when he Rite of Replicates it, then starts a summer bloom/explore-athon, and drops fervor... I'm just like "Told ya so!"...
Jesus!
The thing is, the trick to beating blue is often to make sure you have more threats than they do answers, and if you are not actually throwing those threats at them then it allows blue to stock up on answers that it can play relatively speedily. You don't want to wait until they are one piece away from comboing before you aim your threats at blue, you want to keep them from being able sit on too much untapped mana. This is coming from a player that plays Mono-U and U/X EDH pretty regularly. It is frustrating but it is often warranted to some extent.
Personally, I really hate it when the other decks are not packing enough answers for a variety of threats (especially in EDH). I habitually will make sure I am not going to just roll over to that annoying permanent that people loath, and too often find myself being the only guy at the table with the cards to do anything about it. The result being I am spending all my energy keeping the board state from being degenerate, and everyone else gets to reap the rewards. People need to share in the general regulation of the board state rather than just ***** about some routinely seen permanent that pee's in everyone's Kool-Ade (oh YEAH!). Pack some answers, you fools!
I hate getting ganged up on in EDH simply because my General is R/U...
Yeah, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind is my EDH general, SO WHAT?! I'm running 4 cards that he can insta-combo with, big whoop... I actually have to DRAW those cards to do it, and enough mana to cast him, and the cards, in the same turn with FoW backup....
And they think I'M the threat? they go after me and ignore the guy building an army of Avenger of Zendikar tokens, then when he Rite of Replicates it, then starts a summer bloom/explore-athon, and drops fervor... I'm just like "Told ya so!"...
Jesus!
Hey, at least you deserve it? Some people I've never met before on Magic Online will bash me because I'm playing Monored EDH for unknown reasons.
No one seems to realize that no matter how good my board state looks, I'm still playing Monored.
Also, people HATE it when you play stupid cards in multiplayer. I usually try to make them ignore me by playing some bad cards in my deck, like they'll think that I don't know what the hell I'm doing. It works a disturbingly low amount of the time. I've got a chimney imp in play. Leave me alone.
I hate getting ganged up on in EDH simply because my General is R/U...
Yeah, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind is my EDH general, SO WHAT?! I'm running 4 cards that he can insta-combo with, big whoop... I actually have to DRAW those cards to do it, and enough mana to cast him, and the cards, in the same turn with FoW backup....
And they think I'M the threat? they go after me and ignore the guy building an army of Avenger of Zendikar tokens, then when he Rite of Replicates it, then starts a summer bloom/explore-athon, and drops fervor... I'm just like "Told ya so!"...
Jesus!
Not sure if serious...
Your opponents are probably correct to gang up on you. With blue's card draw and counter magic, and FOUR cards your general can combo off of, you present a huge threat that they will probably struggle to stop if they don't wipe you early. I would do the same, and I do exactly that whenever I run against a deck that can just insta-win that easily, especially if it can also protect that win with FoW.
If one guy is changing how your group plays you need to tell him to change to your group's play style.
I have a group I play with, I know the power level. When I play with a new group, I bring different levels of decks. Once I know the groups style, I may make decks just for that group.
Multiplayer is rarely fun when people run prison decks or really fast combo decks.
I hate how long games take and it just turns into everyone making a huge army of creatures with no one daring to get aggressive and attack anyone else. I usually end up getting aggressive first because I get sick of it and then everyone gangs up on me, kills me, and then I walk away saying "Okay I'm Magic-ed out now Have fun".
Very much dislike how some people do nothing ALL GAME, turn after turn of zero productivity of their own. Then suddenly out of no where, throw down an action or combo that totally jacks the win from the current board leader.
Oh, hello. Glad you finally decided to play in this round. Convenient.
And it will always be part of multiplayer. There will always be "bad games" for people and their decks, and stopping the leader will always be in their best interest, even if they can't win themselves. Ugh
What do I hate about multiplayer? It isn't skill, or good decks, it is politics.
You win by convincing other players to attack your biggest threat. It is especially effective if you are the only woman in the group. Player A plays a Mountain, and Player B immediately says "Oh, crap. He's playing his XXX" deck. So, everyone shrugs their shoulders and attacks the crap out of the guy who may or may not be playing that. But, she wants him out of the way because he is the only player who even has decks that combo off quicker than her Aggro Elves can begin really clicking.
And, then, after eliminating the ONE player on the board who has even the slightest chance of beating her, she proceeds to smash the remaining players with 1,000 9999/9999 elves pumped up with Joraga Warcaller, Coat of Arms and a scad of other pumps, and goes completely aggro on them.
Why do I hate multiplayer? Because of politics. One-v-one is more honest.
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Currently playing:
Standard: WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern: UR Twinning RU G Venus Fly Trap G U Artifacts Aggro U
Very much dislike how some people do nothing ALL GAME, turn after turn of zero productivity of their own. Then suddenly out of no where, throw down an action or combo that totally jacks the win from the current board leader.
Except I'm pretty sure they haven't been doing 'nothing.' Surely you would have noticed them building up resources and sculpting their hands. Maybe you should have been attacking the guy doing nothing.
I'll be honest. He didn't "totally jack the win from the current board leader." He was the current board leader, you all just failed to realize it.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
From what I've experienced with who I play with, they aren't overly fond of infinite combos. General silliness is always fun... although if said general silliness is say a Kor Spiritdancer with a Battle Mastery and 1+ Celestial Armors (other auras like Spirit Mantle are implied), the fun quickly zips out the room. They also seem oddly terrified on infect. I don't think I could ever do something as evil as Ink-Treader Nephilim, Ichor Rats, and Volt Charge/Grim Affliction (that and it'd be a mighty pain to set up).
Long story short: Having cards taking control of, infinite combos/back-breaking combos are not much loved by those not doing them. I also find it hard to enjoy a game if no one else is.
Choose one of these judge of creation:
Make Strionic Resonator shine!
You can not grasp the true form of Ashiok's attack!
In other words, you've never built a deck that can handle a glass cannon. We understand your position better now.
It's not about the group being fortunate, it's about a group running some goddamn answers. Combo thrives where answers are taboo. If all you guys run are Acidic Slime and not Nature's Claim, Life's Finale instead of some Doom Blade variants, Spelljack instead of Counterspell, that's the reason you need your second place solution. None of you are building decks that are any good.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
"Hell is other people."
My playgroup and some other new guys decide to play teams of pairs in an 8 player game. After a first few turns, another pair attacks with a couple of creatures dealing about 3-4 damage each to me and my ally. Next turn, I swing with just my Vampire Nighthawk at them to get some life back and they get really pissed off. I asked them why they decided to attack out of the blue, and they claim that they just "poked" us thinking we would just take it. They claimed to be victims and for the rest of the game we were locked into a battle amongst the 4 of us. After that game, I no longer play games with 5 or more people.
Credit to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Avatar & Miraculous Recovery for the Banner.
My 540 Card Cube (WIP)
Dude, it's C A S U A L . . .
Also there's the old adage that there are no wrong threats but plenty of wrong answers. None of the answers you described answer the OP's turn one table wiper. A $400 playset of Force of Will would help, but this is supposed to be *casual*.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Every time I ask "And why couldn't you guys deal with that threat?" and the reply is "Dude, it's casual," I die a little inside.
Casual is not a reason not to run graveyard hate or hand disruption or enchantment hate. There is no magic christmas land where some deck wins turn one all the time and the only thing that stops him is FoW. Stop using this ridiculous scenario as your argument.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
-Getting dogpiled on because people assume you're the best player, you're playing a deck/tribe/theme someone has heard horror stories about, the other players are close friends, you won the last game, etc, etc
-Players who sit there and shout "I'M NOT BOTHERING ANYONE WHY ARE YOU TARGETING ME??" when you do anything to them while they're sitting there building up an instant-win combo.
-Vengeful players. Aka "how DARE you kill my dude who is attacking you or going to win me the game in some way. Now I'm going to hold a grudge and throw every piece of removal in my deck and every attack phase at YOU until YOU ARE DEAD THAT'S WHAT YOU GET"
-When the other players have very skewed priorities about what is/isn't a threat or just don't care. Aka:
Player B: Uh oh! Player A just cast a huge dude! Better kill him fast!
Player A: Uh..you all do realize that Player C has a Helix Pinnacle out with enough mana to put 100 counters on it next turn and all I have is this vanilla 6/6 guy, right?
Player B and D: Psh! What is this Helix Pinnacle? Who cares about a Helix Pinnacle? You've got a freakin' 6/6 guy out! Kill him! *Players B and D proceed to throw everything they have at Player A, putting him out of the game, and then both lose next turn to Player C's Helix Pinnacle*
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Couldn't agree with you more. I do hear the "casual" excuse frequently be used alongside of the "wallet warrior" one.
"I would have won if you wouldn't have played X card that costs Y many dollars."
"Card X should be banned because I can't afford it."
"You're playing Elspeth, Knight-Errant in a CASUAL game?!"
"Player A: Wow, really? You side in Rest in Peace against my Dredge deck? You do know we're playing casual right?
Player B: Hey, you chose to run Dredge, not me."
I have heard these excuses and some of them I am not exaggerating. My playgroup does have a personal ban list for casual/EDH games like no Armageddon or legendary Eldrazi that everyone agrees on.
Credit to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Avatar & Miraculous Recovery for the Banner.
My 540 Card Cube (WIP)
E.G. Memnarch EDH.
Decks:
:symgu::simic: Momir Vig, Simic Visionary :simic::symgu:
:symb::symub: Grimgrin, Corpse-Born :symub::symb:
For EDH, i think power levels is determined by the playgroup. Im sure i speak for alot of players when i say its a slippery slope towards competitive decks. We all want to play our decks to their best abilities but keep in mind the social contract of EDH. If your playing to win every single game by any means possible, you're playing the wrong format.
this is so annoying, I hate EDH decks that lock people out
I play EDH so that everyone can have fun, not get locked out
I know it's casual multiplayer, but really?
If you lose the game you're 'locked out'. This includes losing to creatures.
If you got locked out, you lost. How is this any different than losing any other way.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
Currently Playing- EDH
GGGOmnath, Locus of the LifestreamGGG
BBBShirei, Lord of PoniesBBB
UWRasputin Dreamweaver, Russia's Greatest Love MachineUW
UBWZur, Killer of FunUBW
UGWTreva, Princess of CanterlotUGW
RWTajic, Master of the Reverse BladeRW
RRRZirilan, How to Train Your DragonRRR
PDH Decks
Gelectrode
Ascended Lawmage
Blaze Commando
Yeah, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind is my EDH general, SO WHAT?! I'm running 4 cards that he can insta-combo with, big whoop... I actually have to DRAW those cards to do it, and enough mana to cast him, and the cards, in the same turn with FoW backup....
And they think I'M the threat? they go after me and ignore the guy building an army of Avenger of Zendikar tokens, then when he Rite of Replicates it, then starts a summer bloom/explore-athon, and drops fervor... I'm just like "Told ya so!"...
Jesus!
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Personally, I really hate it when the other decks are not packing enough answers for a variety of threats (especially in EDH). I habitually will make sure I am not going to just roll over to that annoying permanent that people loath, and too often find myself being the only guy at the table with the cards to do anything about it. The result being I am spending all my energy keeping the board state from being degenerate, and everyone else gets to reap the rewards. People need to share in the general regulation of the board state rather than just ***** about some routinely seen permanent that pee's in everyone's Kool-Ade (oh YEAH!). Pack some answers, you fools!
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Hey, at least you deserve it? Some people I've never met before on Magic Online will bash me because I'm playing Monored EDH for unknown reasons.
No one seems to realize that no matter how good my board state looks, I'm still playing Monored.
Also, people HATE it when you play stupid cards in multiplayer. I usually try to make them ignore me by playing some bad cards in my deck, like they'll think that I don't know what the hell I'm doing. It works a disturbingly low amount of the time. I've got a chimney imp in play. Leave me alone.
Not sure if serious...
Your opponents are probably correct to gang up on you. With blue's card draw and counter magic, and FOUR cards your general can combo off of, you present a huge threat that they will probably struggle to stop if they don't wipe you early. I would do the same, and I do exactly that whenever I run against a deck that can just insta-win that easily, especially if it can also protect that win with FoW.
I have a group I play with, I know the power level. When I play with a new group, I bring different levels of decks. Once I know the groups style, I may make decks just for that group.
Multiplayer is rarely fun when people run prison decks or really fast combo decks.
Oh, hello. Glad you finally decided to play in this round. Convenient.
And it will always be part of multiplayer. There will always be "bad games" for people and their decks, and stopping the leader will always be in their best interest, even if they can't win themselves. Ugh
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You win by convincing other players to attack your biggest threat. It is especially effective if you are the only woman in the group. Player A plays a Mountain, and Player B immediately says "Oh, crap. He's playing his XXX" deck. So, everyone shrugs their shoulders and attacks the crap out of the guy who may or may not be playing that. But, she wants him out of the way because he is the only player who even has decks that combo off quicker than her Aggro Elves can begin really clicking.
And, then, after eliminating the ONE player on the board who has even the slightest chance of beating her, she proceeds to smash the remaining players with 1,000 9999/9999 elves pumped up with Joraga Warcaller, Coat of Arms and a scad of other pumps, and goes completely aggro on them.
Why do I hate multiplayer? Because of politics. One-v-one is more honest.
Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
Except I'm pretty sure they haven't been doing 'nothing.' Surely you would have noticed them building up resources and sculpting their hands. Maybe you should have been attacking the guy doing nothing.
I'll be honest. He didn't "totally jack the win from the current board leader." He was the current board leader, you all just failed to realize it.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!