You mean the spell everyone (Including MaRo) insists broke the color pie? How does that help your argument at all?
Blue should get what's in its color pie, which is already fairly large. Direct damage is not blue, destroy effects (outside of transformation) are not blue, and non-temporary exile effects are not blue. End of story.
Then WotC needs to print better counterspells.
You said red can't deal with enchantments, I proved you incorrect. That's all.
And I really doubt they'll print a better counterspell. Hell we can't even get counterspell.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
His question is actually completely relevant, you're just missing the point. I'm pretty sure his point was that people obviously have no problem dealing with non-legendary hexproof creatures since they don't seem to be an issue, so why are they crying foul over the legendary ones? It seems they just want to have a cry.
Because there aren't any over powerful non-legendary hex proof guys.
People aren't even mentioning Thrun....
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Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
Because there aren't any over powerful non-legendary hex proof guys.
People aren't even mentioning Thrun....
Personally I can't think of any myself, but that's what I felt he was trying to get at. Granted, I could be wrong, but I couldn't read it any other way.
Regardless, there are ways to handle them and players will just have to adjust. I've seen mentions of Thrun somewhere, but I'm getting a bit confused while replying to four different threads on this topic in different parts of the forum all tackling different supposed issues with the change.
Then counter it the first time or as it is being re-cast. Why is blue supposed to be able to do something that shouldn't be part of it's color pie just because it once could? Should we start giving fast mana back to black now too? Alternatively. Just block it.
I wanted to post the same. Why should blue be able to kill creatures? Blue has counters and bounce spells. Green has big fatties some even with reach who have no problem blocking and killing a Geist or even Sigarda. I started with a mono-black deck and I didnt complain about how im not able to deal with artifacts/entchantment/planeswalkers. Its not part of the color pie and thats it.
Besides there are more than enough cards to deal with hexproof guys. Board wipes and edict effect like Devour Flesh, Barter in Blood and in the case of Sigarda and Geist Renounce the Guilds
His question is actually completely relevant, you're just missing the point. I'm pretty sure his point was that people obviously have no problem dealing with non-legendary hexproof creatures since they don't seem to be an issue, so why are they crying foul over the legendary ones? It seems they just want to have a cry.
They certainly are an issue, anyone who's watched helplessly as they get smacked by a heavily enchanted/equipped Invisible Stalker knows this... What do we do to them? Generally nothing. They're very limited in the interaction they allow and force you to attack the decks utilizing them from different(more effective) angles. One of those angles has been "Kill the things you can interact with". This change further limits that angle. And that's part of why people are complaining.
Well, honestly I didn't think anyone would make the aetherize argument simply because its not really seeing much play in standard from what I understand and I imagine none in modern. But if you wanna go from a one mana answer to having to use a four mana answer, well your right but it feels like an instance of winning the battle but losing the war...lol.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
This is a game about Magic. Why would Science, outside of Frankinstein like science or evil, be something to base your game off of?
I'd make the argument that magic is a kind of science that we have yet to nail down with theory and law.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Personally I can't think of any myself, but that's what I felt he was trying to get at. Granted, I could be wrong, but I couldn't read it any other way.
Regardless, there are ways to handle them and players will just have to adjust. I've seen mentions of Thrun somewhere, but I'm getting a bit confused while replying to four different threads on this topic in different parts of the forum all tackling different supposed issues with the change.
I wanted to post the same. Why should blue be able to kill creatures? Blue has counters and bounce spells. Green has big fatties some even with reach who have no problem blocking and killing a Geist or even Sigarda. I started with a mono-black deck and I didnt complain about how im not able to deal with artifacts/entchantment/planeswalkers. Its not part of the color pie and thats it.
Besides there are more than enough cards to deal with hexproof guys. Board wipes and edict effect like Devour Flesh, Barter in Blood and in the case of Sigarda and Geist Renounce the Guilds
So your argument is that blue should counter or bounce a Thrun? Cool. Evacuation and a handful of other symmetrical/situational bounce spells that don't target. I see your point about the plethora of tools blue has at their disposal. Cavern of Souls lets decks make every creature with hexproof as strong against blue as Thrun.
Direct quote You said blue being able to outright kill a creature was "the equivalent of dealing with enchantments Red."
Now I had assumed you just miss typed the in.
Chaos Warp does in fact deal with enchantments and is in fact read. How did I misread or interpret you?
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Topdecking that Jace to prevent your opponent's from ultimating _does not_ require any skill.
Using your own Jitte, your own Jace to dig out will lead to interactive gameplay that rewards the better player.
Not gonna comment on Jitte but with JtMS whoever lands him first usually wins. He is literal advantage on a stick. Having two JtMS on the field doesn't suddenly turn the game into a skill-intensive battle of wits. It turns it into a literal topdeck war with fetches and Ponder providing shuffling to alter those topdecks. It's not "The better player wins." it's "The player with the better stuff on top of their deck wins."
Just splash a different color and enjoy the fact that R&D will never make mono-color decks other than mono-Red viable.
I don't know. MBC could be a thing again someday...Of course sui black too except they don't make suicide cards anymore...
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Direct quote You said blue being able to outright kill a creature was "the equivalent of dealing with enchantments Red."
Now I had assumed you just miss typed the in.
Chaos Warp does in fact deal with enchantments and is in fact read. How did I misread or interpret you?
Bluecankillcreatures. That doesn't mean it should kill creatures. Red can kill enchantments with Chaos Warp. That doesn't mean it should be able to kill enchantments.
Notice that I used the word "should", not whether it can already. This is a conversation about what a color should or should not be able to do. I think Blue should not be able to destroy creatures because that is very much a designed limitation of Blue. A rules technicality introduced in 2004 allows Blue to destroy creatures. I'm saying removing Blue's ability to destroy creatures through this rules technicality was a good thing from a color pie perspective.
...I'm not going to go quite as far as to say that WotC just cleared that shark by a mile, but this is not going to go well without a lot more self-control on WotC's part re:hexproof and indestructible (which they haven't given much cause to believe they have) and/or Wrath of God in the next core set.
And either way, Geist of Saint Traft will probably require a ban in Modern. Thrun and Sigarda are fine - they're powerful, but can be dealt with in various ways in Modern. Geist, on the other hand, is too cheap, is effectively always two attackers (one naturally evasive), and actually swings for more than either of the above two hexproof creatures.
Either way, not a fan, and I definitely do question the necessity of this change.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Well, honestly I didn't think anyone would make the aetherize argument simply because its not really seeing much play in standard from what I understand and I imagine none in modern. But if you wanna go from a one mana answer to having to use a four mana answer, well your right but it feels like an instance of winning the battle but losing the war...lol.
Until they just re-cast it and you realize that all you gained was some tempo and never really dealt with the threat. If Aetherize counts as a kill spell, I guess Fog does too.
Bluecankillcreatures. That doesn't mean it should kill creatures. Red can kill enchantments with Chaos Warp. That doesn't mean it should be able to kill enchantments.
Notice that I used the word "should", not whether it can already.
I'm sorry you still feel the color pie has any relevance outside of flavor, which yet again WotC has shown means nothing to them.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I'm sorry you still feel the color pie has any relevance outside of flavor, which yet again WotC has shown means nothing to them.
When was the last time you saw a Black ritual effect printed? What was the non-Blue color in Modern Storm again?
Yeah, keep telling yourself that the color pie doesn't matter. I remember when people where whining their guts out over Green decks having Dismember and Blue decks having "flying Wild Nacatl".
Colors having limitations leads to more interesting gameplay because color actually matters when building a deck. If all colors get the same thing, there is no point to splashing for extra colors. It's what allowed people to still play Green even when Green sucked, because at least Green also had the ramp that no other color had.
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The wedding is over. Now it's time for the honeymoon.
You said red can't deal with enchantments, I proved you incorrect. That's all.
And I really doubt they'll print a better counterspell. Hell we can't even get counterspell.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Because there aren't any over powerful non-legendary hex proof guys.
People aren't even mentioning Thrun....
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Personally I can't think of any myself, but that's what I felt he was trying to get at. Granted, I could be wrong, but I couldn't read it any other way.
Regardless, there are ways to handle them and players will just have to adjust. I've seen mentions of Thrun somewhere, but I'm getting a bit confused while replying to four different threads on this topic in different parts of the forum all tackling different supposed issues with the change.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I wanted to post the same. Why should blue be able to kill creatures? Blue has counters and bounce spells. Green has big fatties some even with reach who have no problem blocking and killing a Geist or even Sigarda. I started with a mono-black deck and I didnt complain about how im not able to deal with artifacts/entchantment/planeswalkers. Its not part of the color pie and thats it.
Besides there are more than enough cards to deal with hexproof guys. Board wipes and edict effect like Devour Flesh, Barter in Blood and in the case of Sigarda and Geist Renounce the Guilds
the legend rule change is stupid. it makes hexproof legends even more dumb to play against, especially ones like thrun and sigarda. utter nonsense.
They certainly are an issue, anyone who's watched helplessly as they get smacked by a heavily enchanted/equipped Invisible Stalker knows this... What do we do to them? Generally nothing. They're very limited in the interaction they allow and force you to attack the decks utilizing them from different(more effective) angles. One of those angles has been "Kill the things you can interact with". This change further limits that angle. And that's part of why people are complaining.
Well, honestly I didn't think anyone would make the aetherize argument simply because its not really seeing much play in standard from what I understand and I imagine none in modern. But if you wanna go from a one mana answer to having to use a four mana answer, well your right but it feels like an instance of winning the battle but losing the war...lol.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
It's sad that you're so desperate to "prove me incorrect" that you begin refuting points I never made.
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I'd make the argument that magic is a kind of science that we have yet to nail down with theory and law.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Main ones are Uril and Sigarda.
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So your argument is that blue should counter or bounce a Thrun? Cool. Evacuation and a handful of other symmetrical/situational bounce spells that don't target. I see your point about the plethora of tools blue has at their disposal. Cavern of Souls lets decks make every creature with hexproof as strong against blue as Thrun.
I anxiously await your reply explaining to us how those cards bypass HEXPROOF.
Now I had assumed you just miss typed the in.
Chaos Warp does in fact deal with enchantments and is in fact read. How did I misread or interpret you?
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Just splash a different color and enjoy the fact that R&D will never make mono-color decks other than mono-Red viable.
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Can't target it.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Not gonna comment on Jitte but with JtMS whoever lands him first usually wins. He is literal advantage on a stick. Having two JtMS on the field doesn't suddenly turn the game into a skill-intensive battle of wits. It turns it into a literal topdeck war with fetches and Ponder providing shuffling to alter those topdecks. It's not "The better player wins." it's "The player with the better stuff on top of their deck wins."
Sigarda, Host of Herons
"Spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents."
so, unless the Sigarda player is casting their own Renounce the Guilds, that ain't gonna work, Jack.
I don't know. MBC could be a thing again someday...Of course sui black too except they don't make suicide cards anymore...
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Notice that I used the word "should", not whether it can already. This is a conversation about what a color should or should not be able to do. I think Blue should not be able to destroy creatures because that is very much a designed limitation of Blue. A rules technicality introduced in 2004 allows Blue to destroy creatures. I'm saying removing Blue's ability to destroy creatures through this rules technicality was a good thing from a color pie perspective.
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...I'm not going to go quite as far as to say that WotC just cleared that shark by a mile, but this is not going to go well without a lot more self-control on WotC's part re:hexproof and indestructible (which they haven't given much cause to believe they have) and/or Wrath of God in the next core set.
And either way, Geist of Saint Traft will probably require a ban in Modern. Thrun and Sigarda are fine - they're powerful, but can be dealt with in various ways in Modern. Geist, on the other hand, is too cheap, is effectively always two attackers (one naturally evasive), and actually swings for more than either of the above two hexproof creatures.
Either way, not a fan, and I definitely do question the necessity of this change.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
lol maybe with all these wrong answers people will start to realize exactly why people are complaining.
Until they just re-cast it and you realize that all you gained was some tempo and never really dealt with the threat. If Aetherize counts as a kill spell, I guess Fog does too.
Or arguably a bit worse, depending on why you're implementing it.
I'm sorry you still feel the color pie has any relevance outside of flavor, which yet again WotC has shown means nothing to them.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that the color pie doesn't matter. I remember when people where whining their guts out over Green decks having Dismember and Blue decks having "flying Wild Nacatl".
Colors having limitations leads to more interesting gameplay because color actually matters when building a deck. If all colors get the same thing, there is no point to splashing for extra colors. It's what allowed people to still play Green even when Green sucked, because at least Green also had the ramp that no other color had.
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