This is my point. This is why the six new Slivers not having a consistent feature doesn't bother me: consistency is not a trait the Hive has in spades. Slivers are constantly evolving new and different mechanisms to advance the Hive. That constant evolving nature is the exact opposite of consistency.
This argument is just empirically wrong. Slivers, however adaptable, did not randomly and drastically change looks each time in every block because of "instant evolution". That is something you are retroactively hand-waving into place now, in an attempt to try and make the changes look sensible. Winged Sliver did not turn into a bird because new players know that birds can fly. Fungus Sliver did not turn into a mushroom. Rather, each retained the primeval form, but were altered to explicitly reference the ability visually.
Until M14, we hadn't seen art that changed any of the Big Three characteristics. That's fine! I know why they did that - because to a degree consistency is a good thing when it comes to art. Being able to instantly identify a Sliver based solely on the art isn't a bad thing.
They did it because this was part of the design identity of Slivers - they shared a basic primeval form, which was changed in a very specific way to reflect the particular ability of that Sliver. This was a strong, clear design aesthetic which is one of the reasons they are so recognizable and loved by casual players.
The problem with the classic Sliver look is that it is extremely limiting. We have seventy-six Slivers, and many of them look very, very similar.
Like Doug Beyer, I feel that you are missing the point. "Extremely limiting" is the point. Retaining that strong, clear design aesthetic is, or rather was, the point. Right now there is essentially zero design aesthetic beyond some vaguely tentacular motifs which are shared with any number of other creatures - and even this is not particularly clear (Sentinel Sliver just looks like a robot).
Even if we wanted to change the look of slivers, the new attempt is particularly incompetent given that even minor races and sub-races in other blocks often have clear visual motifs. Take a look at the Exarchs from Scars of Mirrodin block, for example. The Myr have a clear visual motif. The Kor have a clear visual motif.
If the actual concept of Slivers has suddenly changed from "incredibly strong visual motif" to "random grab-bag (because evolution lol)", then I can't say I'm impressed. It strikes me as contemptuously lazy.
I thought the old Slivers were popular. I wish I could see this marketing data they have, because I just don't understand where they're getting the idea that people want to play a game that's humanoid creatures running into each other on the battlefield.
If you've ever worked in a large corporation, you know that marketing research and focus-group testing are the pinnacle of human wisdom. Getting a marketing degree is like injecting yourself with essence of Don Draper. That's why Hollywood releases so many daring and creative new movies each year.
It's not based on market research, it's based on story continuity. Players still care that the MTG story has a consistency.
It's just a shame that wizards don't care. In the last three blocks alone we had multiple lazy retcons. Mirrordin repopulating, Venser's heart transplant, firemane angels wings etc. Offscreening is also on their main arsenal of storytelling tools these days, and they excpect us to simply swallow it. Just as they are forcing us to swallow this sliver bull now.
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
That is not how slivers work. Each sub-species of sliver evolves separately from the whole. They then share their unique adaptations with the whole. That is why the species is collectively called "slivers".
Most of what you've said in this thread (that I read) can by contradicted with flavor text alone.
Sliver evolution is not instantaneous. They are only capable of adapting their form based on whatever other types slivers are nearby.
Not an instant, you say?
Quick Sliver: "The directors of the Riptide Project wanted instant results on the sliver experiments. They got their wish."
Aside from one example, you're correct that it isn't instantaneous, but they have very quick evolutionary responses, and to virtually any situation. That is to say that slivers evolve some extraordinary abilities in very short times, such as:
Mistform Sliver: "Taking the form of a junior researcher, the first sliver slipped out of Riptide."
Old Slivers had a unique form of shapeshifting that made them distinct from shapeshifters. The way these new slivers are described do not.
Again, they don't shapeshift, but proactively evolve without requiring multiple generations via sharing genetic information through telepathy. If one had to assign a secondary creature type to them, the most fitting would be mutant, not shapeshifter.
If they are capable of altering their form to meet whatever challenge comes their way, then why have The Hive at all? Why do they need to share abilities when they could just auto evolve?
Why have a hive? Its simple really. The slivers have have two big points going in their favor, and the hive principle plays to an enormous strength to the first point, which is versatility. The point the hive uses to greatest efficiency? Strength in numbers.
Again, they don't auto evolve whatever they feel like, although it was evidenced they sort of 'pass the word' for what is required in any particular location, and reinforcements reply whenever possible, exampled by cards such as:
Mindwhip Sliver: "They share more than their thoughts. We must shatter their link quickly!"
—Hanna, to Orim
Ward Sliver: "The first wave of slivers perished from the Riptide wizards' magic. The second wave shrugged off their spells like water."
Muscle Sliver: "The colossal thing rumbled over the ridge, tree husks crumbling before it. The ones we were already fighting howled as it came, their muscles suddenly surging, and we knew it was time to flee."
Synchronous Sliver: "Keep them at sword's length!" Gerrard's order fell flat as each sliver's talon suddenly grew longer. "Hold on-break out the polearms!"
This doesn't mean that slivers evolve purely in a helpful/linear pattern, but in all directions at once, and the vast majority of slivers represented are the helpful evolutionary ends.
Two-Headed Sliver: "That which would be a fatal mutation in any other species is merely a source of new powers. I am intrigued, yet too fearful to examine it more closely."
—Rukarumel, field journal
Bonesplitter Sliver: "As the time streams grew more and more unstable, Dominaria's creatures struggled to adapt. The intense pressures led to many dead ends but also to lethal new forms that appeared as suddenly as the ashen rains."
Plague Sliver: "A sliver shares everything with its hive—even its afflictions."
This is where new slivers fail in the flavor department. This is what happens when one makes sweeping changes to a fantasy species lore without really understanding the original lore to begin with.
No offence, but you should read more lore before you claim to understand it. If I have to fish around for more evidence for communal speculation I can.
Either way, the overall emotion from slivers seems simple.
Telekinetic Sliver: "Slivers are guided only by simple instinct. Advance the hive, and you will be welcomed. Impede the hive, and you will face unrelenting opposition."
—Freyalise
Plated Sliver: "Overcoming extinction has only made the slivers more determined to live."
the voice for vorthos page with Doug whatsit said that these are in fact the Dominaria slivers. Its just 'been a while' since we seen them last.
Which makes it even harder to accept these new slivers into the hive. (not to mention since it IS dominaria, there is only ONE hive which makes thier non-global abilities still wrong)
the voice for vorthos page with Doug whatsit said that these are in fact the Dominaria slivers. Its just 'been a while' since we seen them last.
Which makes it even harder to accept these new slivers into the hive. (not to mention since it IS dominaria, there is only ONE hive which makes thier non-global abilities still wrong)
If you think about it from a tactical point of view they would be more powerful in broods rather than a global hive-- slivers were originally a hive because they had a queen, but then the queen died as a result of the Rathi overlay (as well as the rest of the slivers), so when they were revived by the Riptide Project they evolved independent of 'her,' including producing new forms of propagation (Brood Sliver).
Ghostflame Sliver: "This breed is on the cusp of evolution. It burns away the markings that connect it to a queen that no longer heeds its call. It seeks a new master. Perhaps I can give it one."
—Freyalise
Mindlash Sliver: "Though Dominaria's queenless slivers lack a single purpose, in some the instinct for self-sacrifice remains extremely strong."
Who is to say what other genetics were churned up by relics such as the hivestones.
As for the Dominarian argument, I don't see why they would be anywhere else, unless they found a rich source of planeswalker sparks to munch on for a while so that they might emulate the ability. Dominaria is the only fitting plane.
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Retired from MTGS.
Thanks for the great times and great trades, guys.
As for the Dominarian argument, I don't see why they would be anywhere else, unless they found a rich source of planeswalker sparks to munch on for a while so that they might emulate the ability. Dominaria is the only fitting plane.
A bunch of people are saying they are from Shandalar and are the Original species volrath changed, because of one line of flavor text.
However Doug said these are in fact Dominarian. Just saying it because people must of missed that.
And yes, they could be more powerfull in broods, but the way they were geneticly manipulated by Volrath makes it hard for me to think they would seperate from each other.
A bunch of people are saying they are from Shandalar and are the Original species volrath changed, because of one line of flavor text.
However Doug said these are in fact Dominarian. Just saying it because people must of missed that.
And yes, they could be more powerfull in broods, but the way they were geneticly manipulated by Volrath makes it hard for me to think they would seperate from each other.
They're not that related anymore. Don't forget all Dominarian slivers went through a genocide and were brought back to life with science and sorcery, so they're likely dissimilar to the Rathi sliver your Grandpa was eaten by.
Shadow Sliver "These slivers, trapped between worlds since the Rathi overlay, are among the last to claim direct lineage from the lost Sliver Queen."
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Thanks for the great times and great trades, guys.
I am glad you agree with me. I was not the one claiming that they are shapeshifters. I wrote about shapeshifting in response to DarkSapphire's claims that slivers can take whatever form they desire. See below:
Fortunately for artists, Slivers are not confined to any one form. They can literally evolve any characteristic they need. Humanoid, avian, flying spaghetti monster.
Ask not "Why don't the new slivers have shapeshifter in the type line?" Ask instead "Why didn't all slivers have shapeshifter in the type line to begin with?"
Honest to God, I don't know. Because the way their lore describes them, shapeshifter is a very apt term. If they were always capable of altering their form to meet whatever challenge came their way (which they were), I honestly don't know how that doesn't make them shapeshifters.
Why have a hive? Its simple really. The slivers have have two big points going in their favor, and the hive principle plays to an enormous strength to the first point, which is versatility. The point the hive uses to greatest efficiency? Strength in numbers.
I understand why Slivers have a Hive. I only asked "Why have a hive?" to demonstrate the fallacy of DarkSapphire's position that Slivers "can literally evolve any characteristic they need."
No offence, but you should read more lore before you claim to understand it.
No offence, but you should understand the conversation before jumping in and arguing with people.
Also, I noticed DarkSapphire thanked you for your post. I hope that means he understands and agrees that he was wrong about Slivers being shapeshifters.
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
Sliver evolution is not instantaneous. They are only capable of adapting their form based on whatever other types slivers are nearby.
So we agree, then. Oooh wait I misread and misquoted. We do in fact agree on that point.
I wasn't completely agreeing or disagreeing with you, merely drawing a line among all the scribbling people were making. I even emboldened the key words you had used that I agreed with in the original post. I appreciate your focused confrontation though, so at least I know what to expect from you in future posts.
No offence, but you should understand the
conversation before jumping in and arguing with people.
At least I understand the subject more than the conversation, rather than propagating baseless speculation that seem reverent. I'm sure each has its own weight, and I'm more content with my input.
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
In the same way you can tell someone is from the XVIII century because he is arroused by ankles, you can tell someone is from USA because he feels nipples disturbing.
[b]
Also, I noticed DarkSapphire thanked you for your post. I hope that means he understands and agrees that he was wrong about Slivers being shapeshifters.
To clarify, I said:
"Ask not "Why don't the new slivers have shapeshifter in the type line?" Ask instead "Why didn't all slivers have shapeshifter in the type line to begin with?"
Honest to God, I don't know. Because the way their lore describes them, shapeshifter is a very apt term. If they were always capable of altering their form to meet whatever challenge came their way (which they were), I honestly don't know how that doesn't make them shapeshifters."
By saying "I honestly don't know how that doesn't make them shapeshifters" I was asking a question, not declaring a fact. Although thinking about it now inflection plays a large role in correctly interpreting that sentence, so I can't fault you for your reaction - imagine me saying it with a perplexed tone, rather than a forceful one. I thanked Moose's post because it answered my question, and now I feel better about the issue - chiefly, "shapeshifting" implies a conscious effort with regards to the form one wishes to achieve. Simply because one has the ability to literally shift one's shape (as in, what happens to the other Slivers around a Sliver with a novel trait: their shapes shift to a new shape) that doesn't make them a shapeshifter because intent and ability to control the shift is a key aspect to being a shapeshifter. It was never my intention to argue that they were - I was merely expressing my inability to argue how they weren't.
Plus, I just like the cut of his jib. He's willing to explain things using lore, and I appreciate that.
Actually, you just highlighted why the old design was great at showing adaptation; since the only thing differentiating slivers was their adaptations, it was very easy to tell at a glance what each individual sliver does. Battering Sliver is instantly recognizable as a sliver, yet its differences from the basic sliver body plan also allow us to guess its function. Same with Magma Sliver, Toxin Sliver, Ghostfire Sliver, etc.
Stop trying to justify it from an in-universe perspective and think it of it from an out-of-universe perspective. We associate traits like individuality, emotions, and sapience with the human form. By giving slivers a humanoid form, creative is ultimately diluting the interesting collective hive mind flavor they have. Think about Mr. Beyer's comments: He wants the slivers to be more "relatable". Slivers aren't supposed to be relatable. They're supposed to be alien, and making them look more human is the wrong direction to take.
Plus, anthropomorphism is boring. Almost all the prominent tribes in Magic are humanoid. It starts to get old. It's also a very egocentric view of the world; a few species of ants outnumber the humans on Earth, so why are humans "more successful?" It's a narrow perspective to design success simply by the ways humans succeed.
I was trying to think of a way to state my perspective on this but this pretty much sums it up
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
A bunch of people are saying they are from Shandalar and are the Original species volrath changed, because of one line of flavor text.
However Doug said these are in fact Dominarian. Just saying it because people must of missed that.
And yes, they could be more powerfull in broods, but the way they were geneticly manipulated by Volrath makes it hard for me to think they would seperate from each other.
What abaout quote from Hastric, Thunian scout on a Battle Sliver? Thune is from Shandalar , it was in M13.
I express my views on the M14 "Slivers" (and I shudder using that term for these creatures) in Standardization VIII:
---
When I first saw/heard the (then) rumors that Slivers were returning w/M14, I was ecstatic! Woo hoo! Slivers!
Slivers have always been one of my favorite creature types/tribes. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. With their unique hiveness, they were, and are, a powerful and beloved group of creatures.
Then I looked at the spoilers a little closer, and my ecstasy turned to wha-Wha-WHAT?!?!? Multiple limbs? Multiple hives? WHAT?!?!?
Let me quote you a wiki about Slivers: (emphasis added by me)
Slivers are creatures that share a hive mind, which allows them to share their abilities with other nearby slivers.
Slivers are depicted with an armored vertebrate body, a long, bifurcated whip-like tail, one arm with a single talon for a hand, and a head with an armored crest. Variations on this appearance exist in accordance with the abilities each has to offer to the hive.
Now look at the "Slivers" shown as spoilers. Two (or more) Arms. Two Legs. No tail.
Some of you might be saying "Slivers can evolve." And Doug Beyer tackles that issue right here. He argues eloquently, and does make a valid point. Yes, Slivers can evolve. I agree with this completely.
Here is the flaw. When something evolves, it is no longer the same thing. An Elephant is not a Megazostrodon. And these are not Slivers, in my book. Call them what you will, but they are not Slivers. They feel like Phyrexian Allies to me. But they don't look or act like Slivers.
Read the rules text. "Sliver creatures you control...", not "All Slivers..." This means yes, Slivers have evolved. The Hive is no longer. Think about it. The Hive. Singular. There is only one. Except now there isn't. There are many hives. And these "Slivers" only affect their own hive.
To carry this "Slivers can evolve" silliness further, using traditional biological classification, I would argue that the development of multiple limbs, loss of tails, and multiple hives (and subsequently only affecting one's own hive) would constitute a new distinct "Order". With very little encouragement I might go "Class". If I've consumed mass quantities and am feeling argumentative, I could even say "Phylum".
Sure. Slivers can evolve. But a "Sliver" this evolved is like looking at a Pelican and saying "What a pretty Pteranodon!"
You can call it a camel, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like duck, flies like a duck, and poops like a duck.... it's a friggin' duck! These ain't Slivers.
And your hive mind argument fells flat when you had the cryptic implications of mirror matches, if all Slivers was following the hive mind. Why in the ****ing hell were they attacking each other because some planeswalkers summoned them?
I express my views on the M14 "Slivers" (and I shudder using that term for these creatures) in Standardization VIII:
---
When I first saw/heard the (then) rumors that Slivers were returning w/M14, I was ecstatic! Woo hoo! Slivers!
Slivers have always been one of my favorite creature types/tribes. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. With their unique hiveness, they were, and are, a powerful and beloved group of creatures.
Then I looked at the spoilers a little closer, and my ecstasy turned to wha-Wha-WHAT?!?!? Multiple limbs? Multiple hives? WHAT?!?!?
Let me quote you a wiki about Slivers: (emphasis added by me)
Slivers are creatures that share a hive mind, which allows them to share their abilities with other nearby slivers.
Slivers are depicted with an armored vertebrate body, a long, bifurcated whip-like tail, one arm with a single talon for a hand, and a head with an armored crest. Variations on this appearance exist in accordance with the abilities each has to offer to the hive.
Now look at the "Slivers" shown as spoilers. Two (or more) Arms. Two Legs. No tail.
Some of you might be saying "Slivers can evolve." And Doug Beyer tackles that issue right here. He argues eloquently, and does make a valid point. Yes, Slivers can evolve. I agree with this completely.
Here is the flaw. When something evolves, it is no longer the same thing. An Elephant is not a Megazostrodon. And these are not Slivers, in my book. Call them what you will, but they are not Slivers. They feel like Phyrexian Allies to me. But they don't look or act like Slivers.
Read the rules text. "Sliver creatures you control...", not "All Slivers..." This means yes, Slivers have evolved. The Hive is no longer. Think about it. The Hive. Singular. There is only one. Except now there isn't. There are many hives. And these "Slivers" only affect their own hive.
To carry this "Slivers can evolve" silliness further, using traditional biological classification, I would argue that the development of multiple limbs, loss of tails, and multiple hives (and subsequently only affecting one's own hive) would constitute a new distinct "Order". With very little encouragement I might go "Class". If I've consumed mass quantities and am feeling argumentative, I could even say "Phylum".
Sure. Slivers can evolve. But a "Sliver" this evolved is like looking at a Pelican and saying "What a pretty Pteranodon!"
You can call it a camel, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like duck, flies like a duck, and poops like a duck.... it's a friggin' duck! These ain't Slivers.
Using real world science to explain something in a fantasy setting
We've seen a ton of it in this topic but it never, ever ceases to amaze me that people can seriously believe in it
This argument is just empirically wrong. Slivers, however adaptable, did not randomly and drastically change looks each time in every block because of "instant evolution". That is something you are retroactively hand-waving into place now, in an attempt to try and make the changes look sensible. Winged Sliver did not turn into a bird because new players know that birds can fly. Fungus Sliver did not turn into a mushroom. Rather, each retained the primeval form, but were altered to explicitly reference the ability visually.
They did it because this was part of the design identity of Slivers - they shared a basic primeval form, which was changed in a very specific way to reflect the particular ability of that Sliver. This was a strong, clear design aesthetic which is one of the reasons they are so recognizable and loved by casual players.
Like Doug Beyer, I feel that you are missing the point. "Extremely limiting" is the point. Retaining that strong, clear design aesthetic is, or rather was, the point. Right now there is essentially zero design aesthetic beyond some vaguely tentacular motifs which are shared with any number of other creatures - and even this is not particularly clear (Sentinel Sliver just looks like a robot).
Even if we wanted to change the look of slivers, the new attempt is particularly incompetent given that even minor races and sub-races in other blocks often have clear visual motifs. Take a look at the Exarchs from Scars of Mirrodin block, for example. The Myr have a clear visual motif. The Kor have a clear visual motif.
If the actual concept of Slivers has suddenly changed from "incredibly strong visual motif" to "random grab-bag (because evolution lol)", then I can't say I'm impressed. It strikes me as contemptuously lazy.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
If you've ever worked in a large corporation, you know that marketing research and focus-group testing are the pinnacle of human wisdom. Getting a marketing degree is like injecting yourself with essence of Don Draper. That's why Hollywood releases so many daring and creative new movies each year.
According to the ads, anyway...
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
It's just a shame that wizards don't care. In the last three blocks alone we had multiple lazy retcons. Mirrordin repopulating, Venser's heart transplant, firemane angels wings etc. Offscreening is also on their main arsenal of storytelling tools these days, and they excpect us to simply swallow it. Just as they are forcing us to swallow this sliver bull now.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Too perfect.
Most of what you've said in this thread (that I read) can by contradicted with flavor text alone.
Not an instant, you say?
Quick Sliver: "The directors of the Riptide Project wanted instant results on the sliver experiments. They got their wish."
Aside from one example, you're correct that it isn't instantaneous, but they have very quick evolutionary responses, and to virtually any situation. That is to say that slivers evolve some extraordinary abilities in very short times, such as:
Mistform Sliver: "Taking the form of a junior researcher, the first sliver slipped out of Riptide."
Blade Sliver: "After breaking free from the Riptide Project, the slivers quickly adapted to life on Otaria—much to the dismay of life on Otaria."
Spinneret Sliver: "Each new generation of slivers evolves to assimilate the strengths of the prey upon which their progenitors fed."
I suspect it was more like decades or centuries rather than millennium.
Again, they don't shapeshift, but proactively evolve without requiring multiple generations via sharing genetic information through telepathy. If one had to assign a secondary creature type to them, the most fitting would be mutant, not shapeshifter.
Why have a hive? Its simple really. The slivers have have two big points going in their favor, and the hive principle plays to an enormous strength to the first point, which is versatility. The point the hive uses to greatest efficiency? Strength in numbers.
Again, they don't auto evolve whatever they feel like, although it was evidenced they sort of 'pass the word' for what is required in any particular location, and reinforcements reply whenever possible, exampled by cards such as:
Mindwhip Sliver: "They share more than their thoughts. We must shatter their link quickly!"
—Hanna, to Orim
Ward Sliver: "The first wave of slivers perished from the Riptide wizards' magic. The second wave shrugged off their spells like water."
Muscle Sliver: "The colossal thing rumbled over the ridge, tree husks crumbling before it. The ones we were already fighting howled as it came, their muscles suddenly surging, and we knew it was time to flee."
Synchronous Sliver: "Keep them at sword's length!" Gerrard's order fell flat as each sliver's talon suddenly grew longer. "Hold on-break out the polearms!"
This doesn't mean that slivers evolve purely in a helpful/linear pattern, but in all directions at once, and the vast majority of slivers represented are the helpful evolutionary ends.
Two-Headed Sliver: "That which would be a fatal mutation in any other species is merely a source of new powers. I am intrigued, yet too fearful to examine it more closely."
—Rukarumel, field journal
Bonesplitter Sliver: "As the time streams grew more and more unstable, Dominaria's creatures struggled to adapt. The intense pressures led to many dead ends but also to lethal new forms that appeared as suddenly as the ashen rains."
Plague Sliver: "A sliver shares everything with its hive—even its afflictions."
No offence, but you should read more lore before you claim to understand it. If I have to fish around for more evidence for communal speculation I can.
Either way, the overall emotion from slivers seems simple.
Telekinetic Sliver: "Slivers are guided only by simple instinct. Advance the hive, and you will be welcomed. Impede the hive, and you will face unrelenting opposition."
—Freyalise
Plated Sliver: "Overcoming extinction has only made the slivers more determined to live."
the voice for vorthos page with Doug whatsit said that these are in fact the Dominaria slivers. Its just 'been a while' since we seen them last.
Which makes it even harder to accept these new slivers into the hive. (not to mention since it IS dominaria, there is only ONE hive which makes thier non-global abilities still wrong)
It's Hip to be a Square
If you think about it from a tactical point of view they would be more powerful in broods rather than a global hive-- slivers were originally a hive because they had a queen, but then the queen died as a result of the Rathi overlay (as well as the rest of the slivers), so when they were revived by the Riptide Project they evolved independent of 'her,' including producing new forms of propagation (Brood Sliver).
Ghostflame Sliver: "This breed is on the cusp of evolution. It burns away the markings that connect it to a queen that no longer heeds its call. It seeks a new master. Perhaps I can give it one."
—Freyalise
Mindlash Sliver: "Though Dominaria's queenless slivers lack a single purpose, in some the instinct for self-sacrifice remains extremely strong."
Who is to say what other genetics were churned up by relics such as the hivestones.
As for the Dominarian argument, I don't see why they would be anywhere else, unless they found a rich source of planeswalker sparks to munch on for a while so that they might emulate the ability. Dominaria is the only fitting plane.
A bunch of people are saying they are from Shandalar and are the Original species volrath changed, because of one line of flavor text.
However Doug said these are in fact Dominarian. Just saying it because people must of missed that.
And yes, they could be more powerfull in broods, but the way they were geneticly manipulated by Volrath makes it hard for me to think they would seperate from each other.
It's Hip to be a Square
They're not that related anymore. Don't forget all Dominarian slivers went through a genocide and were brought back to life with science and sorcery, so they're likely dissimilar to the Rathi sliver your Grandpa was eaten by.
Shadow Sliver "These slivers, trapped between worlds since the Rathi overlay, are among the last to claim direct lineage from the lost Sliver Queen."
I am glad you agree with me. I was not the one claiming that they are shapeshifters. I wrote about shapeshifting in response to DarkSapphire's claims that slivers can take whatever form they desire. See below:
Ok, back to the present discussion...
I understand why Slivers have a Hive. I only asked "Why have a hive?" to demonstrate the fallacy of DarkSapphire's position that Slivers "can literally evolve any characteristic they need."
Again, you and I are in agreement on this.
No offence, but you should understand the conversation before jumping in and arguing with people.
Also, I noticed DarkSapphire thanked you for your post. I hope that means he understands and agrees that he was wrong about Slivers being shapeshifters.
So we agree, then.
Oooh waitI misread and misquoted. We do in fact agree on that point.I wasn't completely agreeing or disagreeing with you, merely drawing a line among all the scribbling people were making. I even emboldened the key words you had used that I agreed with in the original post. I appreciate your focused confrontation though, so at least I know what to expect from you in future posts.
At least I understand the subject more than the conversation, rather than propagating baseless speculation that seem reverent. I'm sure each has its own weight, and I'm more content with my input.
Please don't attribute DarkSapphire's quotes to me. You are only making things more confusing.
Rereading, you are correct. I was mistaken.
Agreed.
To clarify, I said:
"Ask not "Why don't the new slivers have shapeshifter in the type line?" Ask instead "Why didn't all slivers have shapeshifter in the type line to begin with?"
Honest to God, I don't know. Because the way their lore describes them, shapeshifter is a very apt term. If they were always capable of altering their form to meet whatever challenge came their way (which they were), I honestly don't know how that doesn't make them shapeshifters."
By saying "I honestly don't know how that doesn't make them shapeshifters" I was asking a question, not declaring a fact. Although thinking about it now inflection plays a large role in correctly interpreting that sentence, so I can't fault you for your reaction - imagine me saying it with a perplexed tone, rather than a forceful one. I thanked Moose's post because it answered my question, and now I feel better about the issue - chiefly, "shapeshifting" implies a conscious effort with regards to the form one wishes to achieve. Simply because one has the ability to literally shift one's shape (as in, what happens to the other Slivers around a Sliver with a novel trait: their shapes shift to a new shape) that doesn't make them a shapeshifter because intent and ability to control the shift is a key aspect to being a shapeshifter. It was never my intention to argue that they were - I was merely expressing my inability to argue how they weren't.
Plus, I just like the cut of his jib. He's willing to explain things using lore, and I appreciate that.
I was trying to think of a way to state my perspective on this but this pretty much sums it up
"I especially like how the word ‘Sliver’ evokes something infiltrating, sharp, a lithe and predatory scintilla that’s part of a larger whole…"
This sums up my views perfectly. These new slivers just aren't slivers to me. They don't make sense any more. They just look like Phyrexia knockoffs.
How is that relevant?
We have already seen the mechanic change. We have already seen blatantly changed art design.
What are you saying? All the other slivers will be their original art design with the "all slivers" mechanic?
What abaout quote from Hastric, Thunian scout on a Battle Sliver? Thune is from Shandalar , it was in M13.
Now can you email that to Doug and Maro please.
These new creatures should never have been given the sliver creatire type. I want Wotc to admit this as a mistake and fix it.
And your hive mind argument fells flat when you had the cryptic implications of mirror matches, if all Slivers was following the hive mind. Why in the ****ing hell were they attacking each other because some planeswalkers summoned them?
Using real world science to explain something in a fantasy setting
We've seen a ton of it in this topic but it never, ever ceases to amaze me that people can seriously believe in it
Neo zerg = neo slivers