Just a heads up on the science guys, but you're wrong. We actually do group modern organisms with their ancestors.
So just like every bird is actually a Dinosaur, these guys are still Slivers.
In fact, as a recent xkcd points out, birds are closer relatives to dinosaurs than some dinosaurs were to other dinosaurs. So yeah, the distinction in popular culture has a lot less to do with science, and more to do with us naming both groups before we really knew how to look into whether they were related, and the names sticking.
I express my views on the M14 "Slivers" (and I shudder using that term for these creatures) in Standardization VIII:
---
When I first saw/heard the (then) rumors that Slivers were returning w/M14, I was ecstatic! Woo hoo! Slivers!
Slivers have always been one of my favorite creature types/tribes. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. With their unique hiveness, they were, and are, a powerful and beloved group of creatures.
Then I looked at the spoilers a little closer, and my ecstasy turned to wha-Wha-WHAT?!?!? Multiple limbs? Multiple hives? WHAT?!?!?
Let me quote you a wiki about Slivers: (emphasis added by me)
Slivers are creatures that share a hive mind, which allows them to share their abilities with other nearby slivers.
Slivers are depicted with an armored vertebrate body, a long, bifurcated whip-like tail, one arm with a single talon for a hand, and a head with an armored crest. Variations on this appearance exist in accordance with the abilities each has to offer to the hive.
Now look at the "Slivers" shown as spoilers. Two (or more) Arms. Two Legs. No tail.
Some of you might be saying "Slivers can evolve." And Doug Beyer tackles that issue right here. He argues eloquently, and does make a valid point. Yes, Slivers can evolve. I agree with this completely.
Here is the flaw. When something evolves, it is no longer the same thing. An Elephant is not a Megazostrodon. And these are not Slivers, in my book. Call them what you will, but they are not Slivers. They feel like Phyrexian Allies to me. But they don't look or act like Slivers.
Read the rules text. "Sliver creatures you control...", not "All Slivers..." This means yes, Slivers have evolved. The Hive is no longer. Think about it. The Hive. Singular. There is only one. Except now there isn't. There are many hives. And these "Slivers" only affect their own hive.
To carry this "Slivers can evolve" silliness further, using traditional biological classification, I would argue that the development of multiple limbs, loss of tails, and multiple hives (and subsequently only affecting one's own hive) would constitute a new distinct "Order". With very little encouragement I might go "Class". If I've consumed mass quantities and am feeling argumentative, I could even say "Phylum".
Sure. Slivers can evolve. But a "Sliver" this evolved is like looking at a Pelican and saying "What a pretty Pteranodon!"
You can call it a camel, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like duck, flies like a duck, and poops like a duck.... it's a friggin' duck! These ain't Slivers.
They should have just given them a different tribal name -- let's say, "Sliverz" -- and all would be right in the world. No need to grab something from the past for nostalgia's sake if it's going to be something else entirely.
Let me quote you a wiki about Slivers: (emphasis added by me)
Slivers are creatures that share a hive mind, which allows them to share their abilities with other nearby slivers.
Slivers are depicted with an armored vertebrate body, a long, bifurcated whip-like tail, one arm with a single talon for a hand, and a head with an armored crest. Variations on this appearance exist in accordance with the abilities each has to offer to the hive.
Now look at the "Slivers" shown as spoilers. Two (or more) Arms. Two Legs. No tail.
Yes, because that article was written back when those were the physical marks of a Sliver. Just because it's in a wiki article doesn't mean it cannot change.
Some of you might be saying "Slivers can evolve." And Doug Beyer tackles that issue right here. He argues eloquently, and does make a valid point. Yes, Slivers can evolve. I agree with this completely.
Here is the flaw. When something evolves, it is no longer the same thing. An Elephant is not a Megazostrodon. And these are not Slivers, in my book. Call them what you will, but they are not Slivers. They feel like Phyrexian Allies to me. But they don't look or act like Slivers.
But I'm sure you wouldn't complain that this is an elephant, and this is an elephant, and this is an elephant, and this is an elephant, and THIS is an elephant, would you?
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Someday, I will own all of the dragons. All of them. 43/111, approximately 39% complete. Over a third done.
(calling it now; there will be a cycle of Legendary dual lands with Basic Land types in Theros block)
... AAAAAAAAND I was wrong
Or instead of changing the way they looked they could have just changed the "all" to "you control" clause and justified that, seeing as how that is a lot easier to explain as opposed to the entire race of creatures morphing.
Oh and for the record, for everyone out there, I am a biology major and have taken many classes in zoology. Technically you can categorize most animals together, depending on how far you break down the scientific categorization. Whales are mammals so you can say they're like mice, but they're so far away from them that you wouldn't. Plus, if we are talking about evolution you can tie us to Amphioxus which is one of the first vertebrates to spark the chain of life. But we are so far different that you never would consider us to be.
In my opinion they should have kept the Sliver appearance the same and changed the ability. Put it this way. Would you have liked them to change the Appearance of the Eldrazi into giant naked humans, or Nicol Bolas into a tailless scaly man with tiny wings? Or if Karn was the silver golem but they made him green because they wanted to? Let's make Liliana into a dude too, while we are at it.
since this passage is completely logical and prove that the so popular "sliver evolution theory" is bull**** (in addition to a lot of other reasons), new sliver fan will ignore you or say that evolution doesn't apply to magic (that's why merfolk are creture-fish and humans are creature-ape)
the hell Doug Beyer, i understand that you are not Brady Dommermuth and you suck, but next time make these sliver "creature-sliver mutant"
There's this called suspension of disbelief
Look it up
I can probably prove that summoning creatures from another plane isn't possible for a human being, shooting fireballs is also unlikely and flipping coins to make myself go faster (extra turns) is also physically impossible
I can probably prove that summoning creatures from another plane isn't possible for a human being, shooting fireballs is also unlikely and flipping coins to make myself go faster (extra turns) is also physically impossible
Does that invalidate the entire game to you?
so basically wizards can draw slivers as dog poo and you'll have to accept it?
there's a limit to suspension of disbelief. here wizards is just winging and hope the die hard slivers fans will swallow whatever they feed down their throats.
Quote from wikipedia »
Not all authors believe that suspension of the disbelief adequately characterizes the audience's relationship to imaginative works of art. J. R. R. Tolkien challenges this concept in his essay "On Fairy-Stories", choosing instead the paradigm of secondary belief based on inner consistency of reality. Tolkien says that, in order for the narrative to work, the reader must believe that what he reads is true within the secondary reality of the fictional world. By focusing on creating an internally consistent fictional world, the author makes secondary belief possible. Tolkien argues that suspension of disbelief is only necessary when the work has failed to create secondary belief. From that point the spell is broken, and the reader ceases to be immersed in the story and must make a conscious effort to suspend disbelief or else give up on it entirely.
so basically wizards can draw slivers as dog poo and you'll have to accept it?
there's a limit to suspension of disbelief. here wizards is just winging and hope the die hard slivers fans will swallow whatever they feed down their throats.
You know an argument has no legs if the only recourse to disprove something is the absurd
I suggested that it is reasonnable to accept WotC's "slivers have evolved since we last saw them" because we have seen the new ones and they have given us a reasoning for the changes
You can dislike the changes, that's fine, but to say they make no sense is being tone-deaf, just like bringing up feces in argument about fantasy creatures is
I'm no fan of slivers by the way: never liked them and still don't
Anything in a fantasy work can be technically excused by waving hands and coming up with some excuse. Technically speaking, "a wizard did it" is enough. The thing is, the end result will still be a lazy, piss-poor hackjob, like the new "slivers".
That you can technically justify the new "slivers" being Slivers by stretching the stuff they've been described doing doesn't change the fact that the new "slivers' " art, separated from the card frame that's yelling "look they're Slivers!" at us, doesn't make anyone go "Oh, that's a Sliver". It's a failure of the product's visual design that tramples on people's expectations and established visual identity so badly it isn't funny.
Trying to say they evolved is precisely that lazy, justificatory hack writing. Moreover, we can pretty well observe that the "evolution" is at odds with both how Slivers have been depicted to date, and with how actual evolution works. In this way, the explanation starts breaking the secondary belief Tolkien wrote about.
In short, it is an argument about quality, not technical correctness. The charge is this is lazy, uninspired and lame product design, not you haven't written the requisite handwavy paragraphs of hack writing to make this work.
You know, just to play advocate for the people saying new sliver look is bad. I wonder why they didn't just take the tentacle mass wearing armor look and have it in the shape of the old style slivers? That might have been more acceptable for most of us if they were planning to go in this direction.
Or they could've just added appendages if the current form felt too constraining. Not like you can't make a reptilian or insectoid critter with a sliver head and a couple scythe-claws.
As a diehard sliver fan since their inception, I'm confused by all of the butthurt going on in this thread. I for one accept and praise our new sliver overlords with glee, even if I too preferred the old physical appearance over the new. I even side with everyone that the change in mechanics is disappointing, both from a gaming point of view and as a Vorthos versed in lore, but...
I feel like everyone is forgetting the core idea of what slivers are and what they represent. They're wild life and determination to survive under unfathomable circumstance. They have a physical form that evolves to optimize their survival in any environment, sometimes in simple and intuitive ways and sometimes in... well, look at Timespiral (I'm looking at you, Lymph Sliver. Whats wrong with your face?!). I don't know if an overwhelming number of people hate the idea of slivers with legs or if only the disgruntled feel the need to share their disdain, but I think a majority of us don't like what they've done... but it makes sense. The majority of higher lifeforms on Earth (which the plane Dominaria is based on) have two or more legs because, simply put, they're better. If slivers evolved two (or more) limbs before (Mesmeric sliver, Homing Sliver, Spinneret Sliver, Two-Headed Sliver, Blade Sliver, Hunter Sliver (two heads), Muscle Sliver (fingers as well), Winged Sliver, Sliver Queen, Sliver Overlord) I don't see why a branch of the hive wouldn't retain this clearly higher evolutionary trait (not by choice, but because they would be more likely to survive, therefore evolve). They would be faster, stronger, more dexterous, and require fewer calories for locomotion.
If anything, I think the fact that slivers are taking on bipedal humanoid forms is a sign that slivers are finally taking their place as the supreme organism in Dominaria, and that is both exhilarating as a sliver fan, and terrifying as a Dominarian/Earthling. I'm also not surprised at all, because we were explicitly told that the hive had evolved a consciousness.
Not sure why they chose to redesign the slivers, since they have such a long history of looking the way they did, but I don't really mind either.
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because there is a lot of new mechanics that the old slivers dont have like.... Annihilate? Hexproof? Evolve? WOTC? this is just sick!
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because there is a lot of new mechanics that the old slivers dont have like.... Annihilate? Hexproof? Evolve? WOTC? this is just sick!
Of the slivers you mentioned, the only one I could see possibly seeing print is Hexproof, and that's because its a new vanilla keyword. Annihilate and Evolve will never be seen again because they were setting and time specific abilities to enhance the flavor of a certain set/block, so they're not coming back. As for what hexproof would be printed on, consider that Crystalline Sliver is the best sliver ever printed at a convenient converted mana cost of just 2. If hexproof comes back, it would be on something bigger and borderline or completely unplayable in a format outside of commander (unless for some reason WotC wants to force them as a playable tribe, in which case only time will tell. I myself would LOVE to see Meathooks come back to legacy.)
Mentioning the evolve keyword, though, I do wonder just what the Simic would do with a sample of sliver material to toy with. Evolve, indeed.
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Retired from MTGS.
Thanks for the great times and great trades, guys.
Can you show where WOTC offically states these are new slivers are from Dominaria?
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/49835902311/slivers-evolved
There. No he does not say the name Dominaria, but just looka t how he talks about them. Its very clear that they are in fact Dominaria or he would of said something else abotu them other then trying to rationalize the changes.
It was the perfect opertunity to have us shut our traps and be, "Yo... these be the original slivers. Not Dominaria slivers."
Instead he prattled about Why they had to change because they wanted to use bad digital art and its been so long since we seen slivers last. Read between the lines.
Does this mean they won't change it later to be Slivers from Shadalar? No, they could do anything at any time. They could even insert multiple arts of the same cards in packs like they did with Brothers Yamazaki and various old cards from Stronghold. This is just what they have said so far. Its still quite a while till m14 comes out, so who knows what BS they could pull out to "fix" or fix this problem.
You act as if WOTC cared about flavor. As apparent with these new slivers and thier talk about how these ARE dominaria slivers, they apparently don't.
The Slivers could be ORIGINALLY from Shandalar.
Keep in mind, most species found on Rath (like the Kor and merfolk for example) were kidnapped from other planes, with the Slivers being one of them (Volrath modified them to an unknown extent).
Also, straight from the wiki:
The first slivers shown in the storyline lived in Rath. It's unknown from where they originally came.
In the same way you can tell someone is from the XVIII century because he is arroused by ankles, you can tell someone is from USA because he feels nipples disturbing.
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/49835902311/slivers-evolved
There. No he does not say the name Dominaria, but just looka t how he talks about them. Its very clear that they are in fact Dominaria or he would of said something else abotu them other then trying to rationalize the changes.
It was the perfect opertunity to have us shut our traps and be, "Yo... these be the original slivers. Not Dominaria slivers."
Instead he prattled about Why they had to change because they wanted to use bad digital art and its been so long since we seen slivers last. Read between the lines.
Does this mean they won't change it later to be Slivers from Shadalar? No, they could do anything at any time. They could even insert multiple arts of the same cards in packs like they did with Brothers Yamazaki and various old cards from Stronghold. This is just what they have said so far. Its still quite a while till m14 comes out, so who knows what BS they could pull out to "fix" or fix this problem.
Wait, what? Even though he never states anywhere in that article that Slivers are on Dominaria, you've been going around saying that Doug says these are the Dominarian slivers? When the only thing he says is "Slivers have evolved a bit since you last saw them."
Your argument is really "These must be Dominarian slivers because Doug clearly says they're on Dominaria, even though he didn't actually say they are on or from Dominaria, and even though we have flavor text from an individual living in a nation on Shandalar talking about fighting the slivers he is encountering on Shandalar."
More over, you believe in your interpretation of those ten words so fully that you're willing to say things like:
Wait, what? Even though he never states anywhere in that article that Slivers are on Dominaria, you've been going around saying that Doug says these are the Dominarian slivers? When the only thing he says is "Slivers have evolved a bit since you last saw them."
Your argument is really "These must be Dominarian slivers because Doug clearly says they're on Dominaria, even though didn't he actually say they are on or from Dominaria, and even though we have flavor text from an individual living in a nation on Shandalar talking about fighting the slivers he is encountering on Shandalar."
More over, you believe in your interpretation of those ten words so fully that you're willing to say things like:
I...it...wow. Brother, I wish I had your faith.
Faith... Great word for that. Now, I haven't been around as long as I probably should have (having only this weekend cut all final vestiges and ties with yugioh by trading my collection for some legacy staples), and I'm not as well versed in the lore as I'd like to be, but isn't shandalar the default location for core sets?
Faith... Great word for that. Now, I haven't been around as long as I probably should have (having only this weekend cut all final vestiges and ties with yugioh by trading my collection for some legacy staples), and I'm not as well versed in the lore as I'd like to be, but isn't shandalar the default location for core sets?
Shandalar has only become that since core sets became yearly. Before that, Shandalar was actually a defined plane that was a location in some Magic the Gathering computer game I have never played.
So just like every bird is actually a Dinosaur, these guys are still Slivers.
In fact, as a recent xkcd points out, birds are closer relatives to dinosaurs than some dinosaurs were to other dinosaurs. So yeah, the distinction in popular culture has a lot less to do with science, and more to do with us naming both groups before we really knew how to look into whether they were related, and the names sticking.
They should have just given them a different tribal name -- let's say, "Sliverz" -- and all would be right in the world. No need to grab something from the past for nostalgia's sake if it's going to be something else entirely.
Sliverz.
Tee-hee.
Thread | Draft
Yes, because that article was written back when those were the physical marks of a Sliver. Just because it's in a wiki article doesn't mean it cannot change.
But I'm sure you wouldn't complain that this is an elephant, and this is an elephant, and this is an elephant, and this is an elephant, and THIS is an elephant, would you?
43/111, approximately 39% complete. Over a third done.
(calling it now; there will be a cycle of Legendary dual lands with Basic Land types in Theros block)
... AAAAAAAAND I was wrong
Oh and for the record, for everyone out there, I am a biology major and have taken many classes in zoology. Technically you can categorize most animals together, depending on how far you break down the scientific categorization. Whales are mammals so you can say they're like mice, but they're so far away from them that you wouldn't. Plus, if we are talking about evolution you can tie us to Amphioxus which is one of the first vertebrates to spark the chain of life. But we are so far different that you never would consider us to be.
In my opinion they should have kept the Sliver appearance the same and changed the ability. Put it this way. Would you have liked them to change the Appearance of the Eldrazi into giant naked humans, or Nicol Bolas into a tailless scaly man with tiny wings? Or if Karn was the silver golem but they made him green because they wanted to? Let's make Liliana into a dude too, while we are at it.
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There's this called suspension of disbelief
Look it up
I can probably prove that summoning creatures from another plane isn't possible for a human being, shooting fireballs is also unlikely and flipping coins to make myself go faster (extra turns) is also physically impossible
Does that invalidate the entire game to you?
You act as if WOTC cared about flavor. As apparent with these new slivers and thier talk about how these ARE dominaria slivers, they apparently don't.
It's Hip to be a Square
Can you show where WOTC offically states these are new slivers are from Dominaria?
so basically wizards can draw slivers as dog poo and you'll have to accept it?
there's a limit to suspension of disbelief. here wizards is just winging and hope the die hard slivers fans will swallow whatever they feed down their throats.
You're so narrow minded! Slivers can evolve into anything! Why not have them turn into dog poo, too!? They'll even be visually consistent that way!
You know an argument has no legs if the only recourse to disprove something is the absurd
I suggested that it is reasonnable to accept WotC's "slivers have evolved since we last saw them" because we have seen the new ones and they have given us a reasoning for the changes
You can dislike the changes, that's fine, but to say they make no sense is being tone-deaf, just like bringing up feces in argument about fantasy creatures is
I'm no fan of slivers by the way: never liked them and still don't
That you can technically justify the new "slivers" being Slivers by stretching the stuff they've been described doing doesn't change the fact that the new "slivers' " art, separated from the card frame that's yelling "look they're Slivers!" at us, doesn't make anyone go "Oh, that's a Sliver". It's a failure of the product's visual design that tramples on people's expectations and established visual identity so badly it isn't funny.
Trying to say they evolved is precisely that lazy, justificatory hack writing. Moreover, we can pretty well observe that the "evolution" is at odds with both how Slivers have been depicted to date, and with how actual evolution works. In this way, the explanation starts breaking the secondary belief Tolkien wrote about.
In short, it is an argument about quality, not technical correctness. The charge is this is lazy, uninspired and lame product design, not you haven't written the requisite handwavy paragraphs of hack writing to make this work.
Circle of Predation, Part 1
Circle of Predation, Part 2
Circle of Predation, Part 1
Circle of Predation, Part 2
I feel like everyone is forgetting the core idea of what slivers are and what they represent. They're wild life and determination to survive under unfathomable circumstance. They have a physical form that evolves to optimize their survival in any environment, sometimes in simple and intuitive ways and sometimes in... well, look at Timespiral (I'm looking at you, Lymph Sliver. Whats wrong with your face?!). I don't know if an overwhelming number of people hate the idea of slivers with legs or if only the disgruntled feel the need to share their disdain, but I think a majority of us don't like what they've done... but it makes sense. The majority of higher lifeforms on Earth (which the plane Dominaria is based on) have two or more legs because, simply put, they're better. If slivers evolved two (or more) limbs before (Mesmeric sliver, Homing Sliver, Spinneret Sliver, Two-Headed Sliver, Blade Sliver, Hunter Sliver (two heads), Muscle Sliver (fingers as well), Winged Sliver, Sliver Queen, Sliver Overlord) I don't see why a branch of the hive wouldn't retain this clearly higher evolutionary trait (not by choice, but because they would be more likely to survive, therefore evolve). They would be faster, stronger, more dexterous, and require fewer calories for locomotion.
If anything, I think the fact that slivers are taking on bipedal humanoid forms is a sign that slivers are finally taking their place as the supreme organism in Dominaria, and that is both exhilarating as a sliver fan, and terrifying as a Dominarian/Earthling. I'm also not surprised at all, because we were explicitly told that the hive had evolved a consciousness.
"Hidden within the clicking, chittering swarm is a unique mind, still young, but growing more aware as time passes."
Slivers are exactly what you think they are, as well as everything you haven't.
Artwork credit.
I'm long winded sometimes, so thanks.
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Of the slivers you mentioned, the only one I could see possibly seeing print is Hexproof, and that's because its a new vanilla keyword. Annihilate and Evolve will never be seen again because they were setting and time specific abilities to enhance the flavor of a certain set/block, so they're not coming back. As for what hexproof would be printed on, consider that Crystalline Sliver is the best sliver ever printed at a convenient converted mana cost of just 2. If hexproof comes back, it would be on something bigger and borderline or completely unplayable in a format outside of commander (unless for some reason WotC wants to force them as a playable tribe, in which case only time will tell. I myself would LOVE to see Meathooks come back to legacy.)
Mentioning the evolve keyword, though, I do wonder just what the Simic would do with a sample of sliver material to toy with. Evolve, indeed.
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/49835902311/slivers-evolved
There. No he does not say the name Dominaria, but just looka t how he talks about them. Its very clear that they are in fact Dominaria or he would of said something else abotu them other then trying to rationalize the changes.
It was the perfect opertunity to have us shut our traps and be, "Yo... these be the original slivers. Not Dominaria slivers."
Instead he prattled about Why they had to change because they wanted to use bad digital art and its been so long since we seen slivers last. Read between the lines.
Does this mean they won't change it later to be Slivers from Shadalar? No, they could do anything at any time. They could even insert multiple arts of the same cards in packs like they did with Brothers Yamazaki and various old cards from Stronghold. This is just what they have said so far. Its still quite a while till m14 comes out, so who knows what BS they could pull out to "fix" or fix this problem.
It's Hip to be a Square
Even though the flavor text on one of them CLEARLY references a location from Shandalar?
... There's having an opinion on the art direction, and then there's being thick.
43/111, approximately 39% complete. Over a third done.
(calling it now; there will be a cycle of Legendary dual lands with Basic Land types in Theros block)
... AAAAAAAAND I was wrong
The Slivers could be ORIGINALLY from Shandalar.
Keep in mind, most species found on Rath (like the Kor and merfolk for example) were kidnapped from other planes, with the Slivers being one of them (Volrath modified them to an unknown extent).
Also, straight from the wiki:
Wait, what? Even though he never states anywhere in that article that Slivers are on Dominaria, you've been going around saying that Doug says these are the Dominarian slivers? When the only thing he says is "Slivers have evolved a bit since you last saw them."
Your argument is really "These must be Dominarian slivers because Doug clearly says they're on Dominaria, even though he didn't actually say they are on or from Dominaria, and even though we have flavor text from an individual living in a nation on Shandalar talking about fighting the slivers he is encountering on Shandalar."
More over, you believe in your interpretation of those ten words so fully that you're willing to say things like:
I...it...wow. Brother, I wish I had your faith.
Faith... Great word for that. Now, I haven't been around as long as I probably should have (having only this weekend cut all final vestiges and ties with yugioh by trading my collection for some legacy staples), and I'm not as well versed in the lore as I'd like to be, but isn't shandalar the default location for core sets?
EDH is a CASUAL format. Get with the program, or GTFO.
Shandalar has only become that since core sets became yearly. Before that, Shandalar was actually a defined plane that was a location in some Magic the Gathering computer game I have never played.
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